Thread: Grand squae
From: Dorothy L Czarnik <C-Dorothy1@neiu.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:15:08 -0600 (CST)

Hi all,
I have found that a grand square keeps the person who has it in a sort of
box. They can't get out unless there is a trine to one of the points of
the square. Then they can use that energy to help them succeed. If they
don't have an easy aspect to one of the legs of the grand square, a
transit will help to release the energy. It is a very difficult aspect.
Dorothy


Thread: Important data
From: Pamhouns@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:53:14 -0500 (EST)

Hi all!

Yes please, please do include either your zone or co-ordinates (there are
so many towns/cities with similar names) it would certainly help save time in
responding to questions.

Thanks Paul for highlighting this problem.

Pam Hounsell (England)
Pamhouns@aol.com

Thread: Grand squae
From: maieutica@tassie.net.au Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 02:45:12 +1100

Hi Barb
A grand square or cross is pretty complex and dynamic. A fixed grand cross
neeeds to know when to let go and to trust. The energies involved need to
be used and not hung-on to. Feels to me it's about learning how to use
power wisely yet I feel it could be a long haul. Emotional flexibility
could certainly help. Generally, the pressure from the squares may force
one into finding a purposeful path while providing the determination and
strength to pursue it. The oppositions aim for balance, perspective and
particularly an awareness of others. There is a challenge to develop
fluidity - to flow with change rather than dig the heels in resisting
resolution and/or change. Do major control and power issues play out in
the life of this person? Perhaps health problems arise when
power/powerlessness issues occur? This is a really interesting (and
daunting) combination of energies. Would you be happy to share the chart
details Barb? If it is inappropriate for the list, Carol, perhaps Barb
could email me personally?

best
Christine
Hi out there! a friend gave me the e-mail address. I was wondering if
>anybody knew what a grand square in a chart was. theres not much in my
>books explaining what a grand square is. they are mars 19taurus32 in the
>2nd house; pluto 24leo36r in the 6th house; saturn 20scorpio38r in the
>8th house; and venus 25aquarius25 in the 12th house. any help you can
>give on this subject would be greatly appreciated. thank you barb
>
>
>
>


Thread: General Elections in Guyana - An Electional Question
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:17:23 -0500 (EST)

I am forwarding this message from Charles Sugrim in Guyana who would like
our opinion on the upcoming elections in Guyana.

Tony

==========
In a message dated 97-10-30 10:08:37 EST, forent@solutions2000.net (Charles
Sugrim) writes:
<<
I have just listened to the speech by The President of Guyana announcing
the date for General Elections on December 15, 1997. The polling booth
normally opens at 6 a.m.
The President signed the proclamation dissolving the National Assembly
i.e. the Parliament between 5.05 p.m. to 5.07 p.m., and announced the
date for elections at 5.12 p.m. today October 29.
Our time is one (1) hour ahead of EST at this time of the year.
06 N 48, 058 W 10, Tz = AST (+4:00)

I look forward to your insight for these elections. Regards and Best Wishes.

Charles Sugrim
>>


---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: forent@solutions2000.net (Charles Sugrim)
Reply-to: forent@solutions2000.net
To: TonyLouis@aol.com
Date: 97-10-30 10:08:37 EST

Dear Tony,

I have just listened to the speech by The President of Guyana announcing
the date for General Elections on December 15, 1997. The polling booth
normally opens at 6 a.m.

The President signed the proclamation dissolving the National Assembly
i.e. the Parliament between 5.05 p.m. to 5.07 p.m., and announced the
date for elections at 5.12 p.m. today October 29.

Our time is one (1) hour ahead of EST at this time of the year.

I look forward to your insight for these elections.

Regards and Best Wishes.

Charles Sugrim


Thread: (no subject)
From: Myrna Ceccarelli <jorue@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:49:12 -0800

subscribe


Thread: Important data
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:46:10

At 12:30 30/10/1997 +0100, Paul Langveld wrote:
>Therefore I would like to propose to all members asking for an opinion
>to furnish
>us with:
>a. the coordinates you have used (e.g.in New York there are several
> possibillities !);
>b. the difference in time with GMT;
>c. the degrees and sign of the AC c.q. MC. and the Moon!

Hear, hear to that. If you don't know what the time difference is to GMT
could you tell us what your zone is so that we can look it up, most
programs provide time differences according to zone names.

Thanks Paul for reminding us.

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread: Grand squae
From: barb.eagle@vitus.alaska.net (Barb Eagle) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:39:21 GMT

Hi out there! a friend gave me the e-mail address. I was wondering if
anybody knew what a grand square in a chart was. theres not much in my
books explaining what a grand square is. they are mars 19taurus32 in the
2nd house; pluto 24leo36r in the 6th house; saturn 20scorpio38r in the
8th house; and venus 25aquarius25 in the 12th house. any help you can
give on this subject would be greatly appreciated. thank you barb



Thread: Fwd: Missing family cat :+(
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:25:43 -0500 (EST)

In a message dated 97-10-28 22:35:20 EST, heartnsoul@kenai.net writes:

< > From: TonyLouis@aol.com
> To: heartnsoul@kenai.net
> Subject: Re: Missing family cat :+(
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 1997 3:13 AM
>
> In a message dated 97-10-28 05:07:23 EST, you write:
>
> << Our male grey striped neutered male (part manx) has been missing since
June here in Alaska. My first chart and question was on 6/27/97 1:43am
Kenai
(Nikiski), Alaska: " Will Ziggy come home"? We share the cats with the
kids..custody...he had not been to my new home for awhile and was very
scared, and got out a sliding door. My recent question was today:
10/25/97
3:30pm same place...: "Is Ziggy alive/ok and living with someone where?"
> >>
>
> I took a quick look at your two charts. In the first one, the 6th is
ruled by the moon and Venus lies in the 6th. Neither Moon nor Venus aspect
ASC
ruler Mars. In fact, Moon has just opposed Mars, showing the cat's
recent separation from the querent. It does not look like Ziggy will come
home.
In the second chart, Mercury rules the 6th (cat) and Venus (almuten) &
Saturn rule the ASC. Mercury will not aspect Venus or Saturn, suggesting no
return.
> Mercury conjoins the 9th cusp so the cat may be with strangers at a
distance. I see no indications of death in either chart, so I assume the
cat is still alive.
>
> Tony


---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: heartnsoul@kenai.net (Marylee Wilson)
Reply-to: heartnsoul@kenai.net
To: TonyLouis@AOL.COM
Date: 97-10-28 22:35:20 EST

Hi, you are the first person that did not need the coordinates
for
Kenai...and I also ended up with mercury ruling the sixth and Saturn
ruling
the Asc....5 Capricorn 11, if I did my math correctly... *sigh*.

Thank you for your quick response, we have plenty of death in the
family
recently, and miss him very much, even when he was naughty...just be
nice
to know if he has passed on to the next realm, or being taken care of
by
someone that will love him, and maybe if it is to be, we can find
him
through advertisement in small local paper, I only tried the bulletin
board
at the post office.
Blessings....Marylee

----------
> From:
TonyLouis@aol.com
> To: heartnsoul@kenai.net
> Subject: Re: Missing family
cat :+(
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 1997 3:13 AM
>
> In a message dated
97-10-28 05:07:23 EST, you write:
>
> << Our male
> grey striped
neutered male (part manx) has been missing since June here
in
> Alaska.
My first chart and question was on 6/27/97 1:43am Kenai
> (Nikiski),
Alaska: " Will Ziggy come home"? We share the cats with the
>
kids..custody...he had not been to my new home for awhile and was very
>
scared, and got out a sliding door. My recent question was
today:
10/25/97
> 3:30pm same place...: "Is Ziggy alive/ok and living
with someone
where?"
> >>
>
> I took a quick look at your two charts.
In the first one, the 6th is
ruled
> by the moon and Venus lies in the
6th. Neither Moon nor Venus aspect ASC
> ruler Mars. In fact, Moon has
just opposed Mars, showing the cat's
recent
> separation from the querent.
It does not look like Ziggy will come home.
>
> In the second chart,
Mercury rules the 6th (cat) and Venus (almuten) &
Saturn
> rule the ASC.
Mercury will not aspect Venus or Saturn, suggesting no
return.
> Mercury
conjoins the 9th cusp so the cat may be with strangers at a
> distance. I
see no indications of death in either chart, so I assume the
cat
> is still
alive.
>
> Tony



Thread: Missing family cat :+(
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:52:19 -0500 (EST)

In a message dated 97-10-28 19:04:10 EST, you write:

<< heartnsoul@kenai.net
CC: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>>

I sent you a response to the question about the cat but I forgot to forward
it to the Lilly list. Could you forward my repsone to the list, I
inadvertently erased it! The address is: william_lilly@halcyon.com

Thanks,

Tony

Thread: Missing family cat :+(
From: "P. Langeveld" <Langeveld.P@net.HCC.nl> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:15:01 +0100

Marylee Wilson wrote:
>
> Hello, I am using this address someone suggested. I have enjoyed studying
> horary astrology for many years, still have alot to learn (+: . Our male
> grey striped neutered male (part manx) has been missing since June here in
> Alaska. My first chart and question was on 6/27/97 1:43am Kenai
> (Nikiski), Alaska: " Will Ziggy come home"? We share the cats with the
> kids..custody...he had not been to my new home for awhile and was very
> scared, and got out a sliding door. My recent question was today: 10/25/97
> 3:30pm same place...: "Is Ziggy alive/ok and living with someone where?"

Hello Marylee,

I wanted very badly to make the chart of your question but I was unable
to do that
because I could nowhere find the coordinates of your place (Kenai ?)
though I am in possesion of Solar Fire 4 and other good programs.

I would appreciate your sending them together with the GMT and to be
sure the AC
of the chart.
Thanking you in advance.
Paul



Thread: Missing family cat :+(
From: "Marylee Wilson" <heartnsoul@kenai.net> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:26:11 -0800

Hello, I am using this address someone suggested. I have enjoyed studying
horary astrology for many years, still have alot to learn (+: . Our male
grey striped neutered male (part manx) has been missing since June here in
Alaska. My first chart and question was on 6/27/97 1:43am Kenai
(Nikiski), Alaska: " Will Ziggy come home"? We share the cats with the
kids..custody...he had not been to my new home for awhile and was very
scared, and got out a sliding door. My recent question was today: 10/25/97
3:30pm same place...: "Is Ziggy alive/ok and living with someone where?"
I would dearly appreciate any insightful information someone may choose to
share...Most of my horary knowledge comes from community class with Ivy
Jacobsen books, but we also studied some articles discussing William Lilly
method. In both charts ( at least my version hee hee), sun and moon are
above the horizon, so I was encouraged, but I would like to find him, or
have closure on his passing if so.
Thanks and blessings, Marylee


Thread: Mutual Purchase
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:08:07 -0400

At 10:58 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear lillies,
>My friend and I want to purchase an expensive item together. She asked
>the question "Is this going to work out for us at this time?" at 12:01
>MST Tucson, AZ Oct 17, 1997. I got a 4 degree Capricorn rising with Moon
>in the fifth and sun in Libra in the tenth cunjunct the MC.
>This is really a minor investment, but we just wanted to be sure there
>was nothing glaringly awful about this particular time.
>Any clues?
>Jewell
>

Dear Jewell,

Chart drawn for the date, time and place you gave.

The answer to the chart question is "no."

Warm Regards,


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
Horary Astrology and Event Analysis
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Mutual Purchase
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:08:19 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-25 03:10:17 EDT, jewellstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< My friend and I want to purchase an expensive item together. She asked
the question "Is this going to work out for us at this time?" at 12:01
MST Tucson, AZ Oct 17, 1997. I got a 4 degree Capricorn rising >>

This is an interesting chart. Here are some notes on it:

Your friend asked the question, so I would take the Capr. ASC to
represent her. Thus Saturn and ASC Almuten Venus signify your friend.
As her "business partner" you fall in the 7th house - Cancer - so your
rulers are Moon and 7th Almuten Mars. The Moon here is VOC by traditional
methods, although it will aspect Neptune which Lilly didn't know about. I'm
not sure what to make of the VOC here. Perhaps you will change your mind
when you consider the ultimate cost of the purchase.
The item being purchased would be shown by the Aquarius 2nd cusp with
Jupiter and Uranus conjoining it. Thus, Saturn and Jupiter would be
traditional signifiers of the item. The presence of Uranus may mean some
unexpected occurrence. Moon and Jupiter are in contrantiscion relationship,
suggesting that you will find this purchase more expensive than anticipated.
Your ruler Moon forms no aspect with ASC ruler Saturn (your friend). But
7th Almuten Mars (you) and Saturn (your friend) are mutually applying to a
trine. Your relationship appears sound and positive. Venus is applying to
sextile Jupiter in the 2nd, suggesting that your friend has more to gain in
this investment. However, the presence of the Venus (ASC almuten) / Mars
(7th Almuten) just inside the 12th house raises the possibility of wishful
and unrealistic thinking.

Hope this is of some use.

Tony

Thread: Mutual Purchase
From: Jewell Peterson - Starsinger <jewellstar@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:58:23 -0700

Dear lillies,
My friend and I want to purchase an expensive item together. She asked
the question "Is this going to work out for us at this time?" at 12:01
MST Tucson, AZ Oct 17, 1997. I got a 4 degree Capricorn rising with Moon
in the fifth and sun in Libra in the tenth cunjunct the MC.
This is really a minor investment, but we just wanted to be sure there
was nothing glaringly awful about this particular time.
Any clues?
Jewell

Thread: Intro and...
From: KismetDuo@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:01:35 -0400 (EDT)

two questions! ;)

Hello! My name is Terri, a 36 year-old woman who just recently married her
best friend! (Sept. 20th in Jamaica!)

I've been into Astrology since my early 20's and, though I know much more
than the average person concerning Astrology, there's still so much more I
need to learn! This eMail list is wonderful!

I have a question that is of strong importance to me. Years ago I saw in an
astrology book that the sex of a child could be determined at the time of
conception due to phases of the moon. Unfortunately, I know of no other
details, or even if it's possible. Does anyone have any information on this?
My husband and I would love to have a son (I have two daughters from
previous marriage).

Also, I'd love to know everyone's opinion concerning my natal 8th House. In
it I have my Sun in Leo (15:21), Mercury in Cancer (26:23), Venus in Leo
(28:06), Uranus in Scorpio (06:29), and Pluto in Virgo (05:07). Needless to
say, I have quite an interest in matters of the 8th House. Would love to
hear your opinions on what else this tells you!

Thanks for your insight!

Terri

Thread: REPLY ABOUT MAILING LIST
From: Albertus van Dijk <tehuti@hot.co.za> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:07:18 +0200
X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0

DEAR CAROL,

thanks for the reply, it sounds interesting and I would like to become a member

as the INTERNET stuff is all new to me, (only upgraded and linked-up a few
months ago) PLEASE ASSIST

HOW DO I SIGN ON?

HOW DO I READ THE MAILING LIST?


I have just discovered your WEBSITE and would like to subscribe to - but
will do that with the SHOPPING-LIST ETC!

My original writing to LEE was about the PARTS OF FLIGHT!
I know it's a modern invention, so it seems the
TRADITIONAL PART OF TRAVEL, must be used.
I am interested in doing RESEARCH in
AVIATION ACCIDENTS
LOST CHILDREN, and
THOSE WHO BELIEVE THEY HAVE SEEN/CONTACTED ALIENS/UFO'S

lAST QUESTION?
Are you aware of anybody from S.AFRICA on your list?


THANKS FOR THE ASSISTANCE

WISHING YOU

LOVE AND LIGHT

ALBERTUS





Thread: Practice of Physick
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 05:05:38 EDT


Thanks for your answer, Carol, I can understand that. A bit like an event
chart really.

Regards

Angela


X-cs:
From: Self <Single-user mode>
To: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com>
Subject: Re: Practice of Physick
Cc: @LILLY.PML, @W_LILLY2.PML, @LILLY3.PML, @WL_ML4.PML
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:07:36 +7

Angela Reeve wrote:
> Hi Carol,
>
> I have a question which arises from the January 1997 edition of Horary
> Practitioner, however, I didn't want to post it direct to the list without
> asking your permission first, so, if you have no objection and would like to
> forward this to the list for the views of others, then please do so.

That's fine Angela, Blagrave is from the same time period and your
questions is a valid one.

> On p25 there is a chart entitled Gail's Husband Consult by Mary Spindler. This
> begins by stating that according to J Blagrave 'Astrological Practise of
> Physick', in order for a chart to be valid the ascendant has to fit the
> condition or description of the client ".. in order for the chart to
> accurately reflect the illness."
>
> By virtue of it then continuing to talk about the description of the husband
> fitting the "...description given.." sounds as though the husband was third
> party in this question and that another person was the actually querent. That
> being the case, why was the chart not turned to represent the husband? Does it
> indicate that in questions such as these, the "Practice of Physick", the
> person enquired about, viz the patient, is always allocated the first house
> regardless of who asks the question?
>
> Regards
>
> Angela
>
It was not uncommon in those days for someone else to bring the urine
of the patient to the physician, therefore the sick person was given
the first house. It is much the same as when a question is asked
about a missing person that is unknown to the querent, that person
has no place in the chart and the first house goes to the missing
person. In a chart where a person is ill and the wife brings it to
the attention of the physician the first house goes to the person who
is ill because he is of prime importance not the person who asks the
question or carries the urine to the physician. Turning the chart is
done in too many cases where it is not necessary and provides an
incorrect answer. It is still best in these types of questions to
work with the radical chart as much as possible.

I hope this helps to clear things up for you.
Love & Light
Carol

Thread: Practice of Physick
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:10:35 EDT


Hi Carol,

I have a question which arises from the January 1997 edition of Horary
Practitioner, however, I didn't want to post it direct to the list without
asking your permission first, so, if you have no objection and would like to
forward this to the list for the views of others, then please do so.

On p25 there is a chart entitled Gail's Husband Consult by Mary Spindler. This
begins by stating that according to J Blagrave 'Astrological Practise of
Physick', in order for a chart to be valid the ascendant has to fit the
condition or description of the client ".. in order for the chart to
accurately reflect the illness."

By virtue of it then continuing to talk about the description of the husband
fitting the "...description given.." sounds as though the husband was third
party in this question and that another person was the actually querent. That
being the case, why was the chart not turned to represent the husband? Does it
indicate that in questions such as these, the "Practice of Physick", the
person enquired about, viz the patient, is always allocated the first house
regardless of who asks the question?

Regards

Angela


Thread: Update mailinglists
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: 20 Oct 97 19:40:11 +0200

Please feel free to copy and publish this information!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now free of charge available via email:

USENET NEWSGROUPS
=================

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For astrological ADVERTISING!

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==================================================================
The "International Congress Agenda" is posted every weekend
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Thread: (Fwd) Insight please
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:11:33 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-10-17 16:32:35 EDT, you write:

<< I was wondering if anyone could give me insight on the compatibility of my
parter and me. >>

Can you send me your first names. It will make it easier to do a comparison.

Tony

Thread: Astrologer's Apprentice
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:38:27 -0700

Listen up folks!

The new issue of The Astrologer's Apprentice has just hit town:

The St Lilly's Day Massacre: the blood flows as astrologers debate the very
foundations of our art
Onmyoji - Astrologers to the Emperor: Hideaki Shuseh Kokubu introduces us
to the ancient Japanese astrology
In Search of Shakespeare: the Apprentice tracks down the Bard's true chart
The Trial: one court case, three separate charts: yet all three carry the
same judgement
A Treasure Found: adventures in the Apprentice's workshop
The William Hill Awards (cont.): making money with astrology, through the
generosity of our patrons
The Vamp: the Apprentice calls on Theda Bara, archetypal femme fatale, and
finds her colourful reputation in her chart
Will Mandy and Beth Go Down? - predicting the soaps
- and more.

Ordering details are on our website, or email j@apprentice.demon.co.uk
There is nothing quite like The Astrologer's Apprentice: "the best read in
astrology" (Bernard Eccles, past President, Astrological Lodge of London).

Regards to all, John Frawley


The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk



Thread: Insight on Guyana
From: Charles Sugrim <forent@solutions2000.net> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:08:58 -0300

Members,

I was born on the 16th December 1960 in Georgetown, Guyana, South
America at 1.15pm. At this time of the year our time is 45 minutes ahead
of EST.

I am campaigning with a Capitalist Party called The United Force for the
next General Elections which is likely to be held in December this year.
The President is the only person to announce the date for the elections.

Can anyone help me with any insight into these elections. The Governing
Party has been trying to change their image from a Communist to a
Capitalist. Their record over the last five years does not reflect this
change. The main Opposition Party has ruled the Country for 28 years.
Their record is tarnished with corruption, bribery, run down economy and
so on.

We have a racial problem with the Governing Party and the Main
Opposition worked very hard to divide the two main segment of the
population. This begun from April 1, 1955 at 10.15am. During this time
we were 15 minutes behind EST.

Can the outcome of these elections be predicted?

Thread: Insight please
From: Danie <trellad@gusun.georgetown.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:58:04 -0400 (EDT)

I was wondering if anyone could give me insight on the compatibility of my
parter and me. I am an Aries, born April 9, 1978 in Jacksonville, Florida
at 6:30pmest, and he is a Taurus, born May 6, 1977 in Nashville,
Tennessee at 4:25pmcst.



Thread: VOC
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:28:20

Having done so much work on this matter, I would like to endorse Jonathon's
excellent (snipped) comments on application and void of course. It is an
important matter and obviously one which needs to be restated periodically.

The position as stated by Jonathon is an accurate reflection of Lilly's use
of these conditions. Also, true is his differentiation between cautions and
considerations before judgement, although I would add something to that.
If, for argument's sake, the Moon is void of course in a horary whether it
is a consideration or a caution is decided by the question. For example:
will my baby be a boy or girl? What might the void Moon be describing in a
straightforward question such as this? I would suggest that it could well
be (with other arguments) indication of, say, miscarriage. In this instance
the condition is cautionary.

Whenever a 'consideration' is operating in a chart, it is a good idea to
ask yourself why, even if you then ignore it for the purposes of judgement.
I always take account of planetary hour accordance, or lack, because this
is often a good first indicator of how things will go.

Sincerely

Sue

At 03:48 14/10/1997 -0700, Jonathon Clark wrote:
>>Please see below for latest thoughts in this discussion.
>
>At 10:21 AM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>The general view seems to be that the Moon is void of course in the chart
>>>which has been discussed re. refranation.
>>>
>>>May I suggest this is not the case?
>>>
>>>
>>>The fact that the perfection of this square does not occur until the Sun
and
>>>Moon have moved into Libra does not make the Moon void of course:

>>>The positive judgement is derived from the Moon at 29 Aquarius applying
to a
>>>sextile with Saturn at 0 degrees 17' Taurus and thence to a trine with
>>>Jupiter at 5 degrees 58' Cancer.
>>>
>>>The Moon's change of sign does not deny perfection.
>>>
>>>All the best,
>>>Jonathon
>Lilly's definition of void of course is as follows:
>
>"A planet is void course, when he is separated from a planet, nor doth
>forthwith, during his being in that sign, apply to any other." (p. 112 CA).
>
>The key word in the context of this discussion is "apply." The Moon in the
>examples quoted is making an application even though it does not perfect
>until after the Moon (and Sun in the case of Ann's chart) change sign.
>
>Let's consider another of Lilly's chart - p. 401 of Christian Astrology -
>Whether the Earl of Essex should take Reading.
>
>Here the Moon is at 27 33 Leo and will not make another aspect before
>leaving the sign. However, the chart is not marked with the Moon as being
>"ad vacua" (void of course) but instead "A vac ad sextile mars et trine
sun."

>The phrase which Lilly uses to head the section starting on p.121 of CA is
>"Considerations before Judgement." A Consideration is very different from a
>caution and although some of the considerations are also cautions (e.g.
>afflicted seventh house, combust Ascendant ruler) a void of course moon, I
>think, is not one of them.
>
>It is a consideration because the question has been asked and the judgement
>sought is "to know whether a thing demanded will be brought to perfection
>yea or nay."
>
>"All matters go hardly on (except the principall significators be very
>strong) when the moon is void of course..." means that a void of course moon
>is a major consideration in judging whether or not the matter under question
>will come to pass.
>Hope this gets us all a little further along the road.
>
>Best Wishes,
>Jonathon

sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread: Refranation + VOC Moon
From: Heather <hcameron@planet.net.au> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:06:15 +1000 (EST)
X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0

Hi there,

Am new to this list, so this is sort of an introduction. What can I
say....that I have studied and used astrology for nearly 20 years
now....there is always an intensity there for me with this....if I am down
or depressed it uplifts me...if I lose my way it hauls me back onto solid
ground. It's definitely an integral part of my joy and life.

This thread has probably already answered what I would like to know about
V.O.C. Moons. The aspects made before changing sign are really only the
major aspects, aren't they?Are there any minor ones included, the quinqunx
for example? Another question....if a person has planets near the end of a
sign, then are they somewhat less affected by a Moon V.O.C. because their
natal planets/angles/etc. are being aspected by such a Moon.

Yet another question? Does the Moon get a bit wayward, and heavily habitual
when it is going to go through a change, without any contact at all, and is
this why it is not a good time to start anything?

Just pondering a little,
Heather

, you wrote:
>At 03:48 AM 14/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Please see below for latest thoughts in this discussion.
>>
>>At 10:21 AM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>The general view seems to be that the Moon is void of course in the chart
>>>>which has been discussed re. refranation.
>>>>
>>>>May I suggest this is not the case?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The fact that the perfection of this square does not occur until the Sun and
>>>>Moon have moved into Libra does not make the Moon void of course:
>>>>
>>>>"If the two planets should be in two signs and each one of them should be in
>>>>the force of each other's body, they must not be said to be in conjunction
>>>>because they are in different signs. That is the opinion of the ancient
>>>>scientists but I, Abraham, the compiler of this book disagree with them. I
>>>>shall reserve my explanation for the Book of Nativities."
>>>>
>>>>p. 209 "The Beginning of Wisdom" - Abraham ibn Ezra
>>>>
>>>>I'm afraid I don't know whether the book of nativities was ever written or,
>>>>if so, whether it is available.
>>>>
>>>>Lilly would seem to endorse this ibn Ezra given the way he judges the chart
>>>>on page 471 of Christian Astrology.
>>>>
>>>>The question concerns the possible release of the querent's husband from
>>>>prison.
>>>>
>>>>The positive judgement is derived from the Moon at 29 Aquarius applying to a
>>>>sextile with Saturn at 0 degrees 17' Taurus and thence to a trine with
>>>>Jupiter at 5 degrees 58' Cancer.
>>>>
>>>>The Moon's change of sign does not deny perfection.
>>>>
>>>>All the best,
>>>>Jonathon
>>>
>>Frank wrote:
>>
>>>Dear Jonathon,
>>>
>>>The keyword from Lilly is "applying." Lilly does not move the Moon in order
>>>to sextile Saturn or trine Jupiter. The Moon at 29Aqu is still VOC. In the
>>>classical definition, Moon (or any applying planet) is VOC if it makes no
>>>major aspect prior to leaving the sign she's in.
>>
>>Lilly's definition of void of course is as follows:
>>
>>"A planet is void course, when he is separated from a planet, nor doth
>>forthwith, during his being in that sign, apply to any other." (p. 112 CA).
>>
>>The key word in the context of this discussion is "apply." The Moon in the
>>examples quoted is making an application even though it does not perfect
>>until after the Moon (and Sun in the case of Ann's chart) change sign.
>>
>>Let's consider another of Lilly's chart - p. 401 of Christian Astrology -
>>Whether the Earl of Essex should take Reading.
>>
>>Here the Moon is at 27 33 Leo and will not make another aspect before
>>leaving the sign. However, the chart is not marked with the Moon as being
>>"ad vacua" (void of course) but instead "A vac ad sextile mars et trine sun."
>>
>>The Moon is 17 degree past its last aspect - a trine with Mercury - and has
>>therefore been "a vac" (from void of course). If Lilly thought the Moon was
>>still void of course he would therefore mark it on the chart rather than
>>noting not just the next one but the next two aspects made by the Moon. The
>>Moon is therefore making an application and is not void of course.
>>
>>The judgement includes two references to the Moon's application:
>>
>>"she applied to a sextile of Mars" and "because the application of the moon
>>was so directly to the sextile of the Lord of the Ascendant [Scorpio rises
>>in the chart and Mars is the ruler of Scorpio].
>>
>>There is no intimation that the Moon could possibly be void of course.
>>
>>
>> However, Lilly concedes
>>>the condition "slightly" VOC which means that the Moon is not making any
>>>aspects for a certain period in her travel within a sign. Either way, the
>>>Moon making no aspect in her travels does show a period of no activity
>>>concerning the question at hand. When the Moon changes sign and starts
>>>making aspects, activity is renewed, but in a different way. Were it not
>>>so, the signs we use and their demarcation points (cusps) would be
>>>meaningless.
>>>
>>>As to "perfection", the Moon VOC is a caution to judgement, not a denial of
>>>perfection.
>>
>>The phrase which Lilly uses to head the section starting on p.121 of CA is
>>"Considerations before Judgement." A Consideration is very different from a
>>caution and although some of the considerations are also cautions (e.g.
>>afflicted seventh house, combust Ascendant ruler) a void of course moon, I
>>think, is not one of them.
>>
>>It is a consideration because the question has been asked and the judgement
>>sought is "to know whether a thing demanded will be brought to perfection
>>yea or nay."
>>
>>"All matters go hardly on (except the principall significators be very
>>strong) when the moon is void of course..." means that a void of course moon
>>is a major consideration in judging whether or not the matter under question
>>will come to pass.
>>
>>
>>
>> When the Moon changes sign, she shows a change of function,
>>>activity and focus toward whatever the she concerns.
>>>
>>>As a caveat, one should be aware that platic aspects are different in
>>>strength and, perhaps character, from partile aspects. In a conjunction,
>>>one should recognize that having Mercury (for example) at 28Vir and Sun at
>>>1Lib requires a different reading than if both were in the same sign and
>>>same degree.
>>
>>Yes, I think both of this points are well worth noting in chart judgements
>>of all kinds.
>>
>>Hope this gets us all a little further along the road.
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>Jonathon
>>Visit the Tree of Life website at:
>>http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife
>>
>>
>>


Thread: (Fwd) Status of RSI?
From: "Nancy Ewart" <newart@sfaids.ucsf.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:26:14 -0800


Many many thanks for your informed and considerate reply. And you are
right that it won't be easy for me to change the way I work; the
hinderance is the management which is determined to increase my
computer work load while being very opposed to alternate inpute
devices (ie, voice recognition systems). However, I will
perservere....!!!!!!!

>From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>


>Venus, ruler of your 2nd of personal resources, is in the 8th of
>transition applying to Pluto of change in publishing Sagittarius.
>You can overcome this condition, but you must consider changes in
>how you do your work. Mars semi-square the Moon the ruler 4th where
>Fortuna is found opposing the Moon-Neptune conjunction suggests it
>won't be easy for you to adjust to changes in the way you work. This
>is confirmed by Saturn retro and fallen opposed fallen Sun conjoined
>Mercury all exactly on the horizon.

Warm Regards,




Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest
Nancy Ewart
Purchasing
UCSF AIDS Program, SFGH

Thread: Refranation?
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:19:48 -0400

At 04:19 AM 10/13/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Thanks for your answers, Frank. Very helpful and much appreciated, once
again.
>
>Re cadent = comings-and-goings, I found this most illuminating, on this
basis
>what do succeedent and angular houses represent? I have always seen them
more
>in terms of timing, but a specific area of activity could be most useful.
>
Dear Angela,

Please see Lilly, Chapter IV. In general, angular houses show that which is
in its beginning stages and developing. Succeedent houses show that which
is set in its course and will not be denied. In cadent houses, one reaps
what one sows. One comes into a cadent house and applies the results to the
next angular house (comes and goes). These generalities are modified by the
sign on the cusp and specified by the planets found in the house and
consideration of the cusp ruler and where it is found.

I believe the best way to see this is to study the flat, or natural, chart
until one's brain bursts. :) As to timing, may I suggest, respectfully,
that one completely define the present before one seeks to predict a future?

Warm Regards,





Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Refranation + VOC Moon
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:48:22 -0700

>Please see below for latest thoughts in this discussion.

At 10:21 AM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>The general view seems to be that the Moon is void of course in the chart
>>which has been discussed re. refranation.
>>
>>May I suggest this is not the case?
>>
>>
>>The fact that the perfection of this square does not occur until the Sun and
>>Moon have moved into Libra does not make the Moon void of course:
>>
>>"If the two planets should be in two signs and each one of them should be in
>>the force of each other's body, they must not be said to be in conjunction
>>because they are in different signs. That is the opinion of the ancient
>>scientists but I, Abraham, the compiler of this book disagree with them. I
>>shall reserve my explanation for the Book of Nativities."
>>
>>p. 209 "The Beginning of Wisdom" - Abraham ibn Ezra
>>
>>I'm afraid I don't know whether the book of nativities was ever written or,
>>if so, whether it is available.
>>
>>Lilly would seem to endorse this ibn Ezra given the way he judges the chart
>>on page 471 of Christian Astrology.
>>
>>The question concerns the possible release of the querent's husband from
>>prison.
>>
>>The positive judgement is derived from the Moon at 29 Aquarius applying to a
>>sextile with Saturn at 0 degrees 17' Taurus and thence to a trine with
>>Jupiter at 5 degrees 58' Cancer.
>>
>>The Moon's change of sign does not deny perfection.
>>
>>All the best,
>>Jonathon
>
Frank wrote:

>Dear Jonathon,
>
>The keyword from Lilly is "applying." Lilly does not move the Moon in order
>to sextile Saturn or trine Jupiter. The Moon at 29Aqu is still VOC. In the
>classical definition, Moon (or any applying planet) is VOC if it makes no
>major aspect prior to leaving the sign she's in.

Lilly's definition of void of course is as follows:

"A planet is void course, when he is separated from a planet, nor doth
forthwith, during his being in that sign, apply to any other." (p. 112 CA).

The key word in the context of this discussion is "apply." The Moon in the
examples quoted is making an application even though it does not perfect
until after the Moon (and Sun in the case of Ann's chart) change sign.

Let's consider another of Lilly's chart - p. 401 of Christian Astrology -
Whether the Earl of Essex should take Reading.

Here the Moon is at 27 33 Leo and will not make another aspect before
leaving the sign. However, the chart is not marked with the Moon as being
"ad vacua" (void of course) but instead "A vac ad sextile mars et trine sun."

The Moon is 17 degree past its last aspect - a trine with Mercury - and has
therefore been "a vac" (from void of course). If Lilly thought the Moon was
still void of course he would therefore mark it on the chart rather than
noting not just the next one but the next two aspects made by the Moon. The
Moon is therefore making an application and is not void of course.

The judgement includes two references to the Moon's application:

"she applied to a sextile of Mars" and "because the application of the moon
was so directly to the sextile of the Lord of the Ascendant [Scorpio rises
in the chart and Mars is the ruler of Scorpio].

There is no intimation that the Moon could possibly be void of course.


However, Lilly concedes
>the condition "slightly" VOC which means that the Moon is not making any
>aspects for a certain period in her travel within a sign. Either way, the
>Moon making no aspect in her travels does show a period of no activity
>concerning the question at hand. When the Moon changes sign and starts
>making aspects, activity is renewed, but in a different way. Were it not
>so, the signs we use and their demarcation points (cusps) would be
>meaningless.
>
>As to "perfection", the Moon VOC is a caution to judgement, not a denial of
>perfection.

The phrase which Lilly uses to head the section starting on p.121 of CA is
"Considerations before Judgement." A Consideration is very different from a
caution and although some of the considerations are also cautions (e.g.
afflicted seventh house, combust Ascendant ruler) a void of course moon, I
think, is not one of them.

It is a consideration because the question has been asked and the judgement
sought is "to know whether a thing demanded will be brought to perfection
yea or nay."

"All matters go hardly on (except the principall significators be very
strong) when the moon is void of course..." means that a void of course moon
is a major consideration in judging whether or not the matter under question
will come to pass.



When the Moon changes sign, she shows a change of function,
>activity and focus toward whatever the she concerns.
>
>As a caveat, one should be aware that platic aspects are different in
>strength and, perhaps character, from partile aspects. In a conjunction,
>one should recognize that having Mercury (for example) at 28Vir and Sun at
>1Lib requires a different reading than if both were in the same sign and
>same degree.

Yes, I think both of this points are well worth noting in chart judgements
of all kinds.

Hope this gets us all a little further along the road.

Best Wishes,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Saturn Opposing Venus
From: sgreen@viperlink.com (Green, Sean) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:41:35 -0700

I see it as a calling to break from the structure in your life in order to
achieve harmony elsewhere. As this is an opposition, it will probably
express itself externally in your life. This assumption is reinforced by
the natal planet being in the 9th house. Saturn is going to test your 4th
house. To pass this test, look toward the matters of the 9th house.
Perhaps there are areas of compromise and mutual growth there.


At 01:39 PM 10/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I read someplace that Saturn Opposing Venus (among other definitions) has to
>do with an outpouring of emotional feelings coming to you, that you might
>find difficult to handle. Since I have transiting Saturn entering my 4th
>house (10/27) Opposing Venus in the 9th house in Libra, can i assume that I
>will be working on my home (repairs), OR difficulties and obstacles in money
>matters, OR keeping with a much more traditional approach a woman (venus) of
>age difference (saturn) entering the home? This aspect is in effect until
>12/15
>
>At the same time (within 9 days 11/6) I have Juptiter by transit (2) trining
>my natal Venus in 9th again in Libra until 11/23
>
>Since Venus will be so prominent for the next 45 days, can anyone shed any
>light on this influence?
>
>Thanks
>
>


Thread: Saturn
From: Pamhouns@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:00:37 -0400 (EDT)

Dear Stelliums -
it would certainly help to know where your natal Saturn is posited in your
chart :
what house is it in? house rulerships, what aspect between natal Venus
and natal Saturn , etc., etc. - without more information on your natal
Saturn it is difficult to predict . However, I do agree with John's
generalization on the effects of a transitting Saturn through one's chart,
particularly an angle -
Saturn transitting the 4th is usually heavy going! Lessons to be learnt???!

Problems with older family members?

pam



Thread: (Fwd) Status of RSI?
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:34:01 -0400

At 12:58 AM 10/11/97 +7, you wrote:
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>From: "Nancy Ewart" <newart@sfaids.ucsf.edu>
>Organization: UCSF AIDS Program
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:16:56 -0800
>Subject: Status of RSI?
>Priority: normal
>
>
>
>The list has been particulary interesting in that last week - the
>questions about job and health strike me as particularly relevant. In
>fact, I am coming out of lurkdom (lurker mode?) to ask a question of
>my own to the list.
>
>I have tendinitis and, due to my work load, I fear that it is getting
>worse. I posed the question:
>
>Is my RSI getting worse?:
>Date: 10/9/97
>Time: 6:30pm
>Place: SF, CA (122w25, 37n47)
>
>The chart certainly reflects the malefic nature of this condition
>with Saturn retrograde in the first house and the ruler (Mars) in the
>8th. I know that Saturn in the first is an impediment and "messes
>things up" according to Anthony Lewis. However, given the nature of
>my injury - is a negative chart a good thing under these
>circumstances? Saturn rising certainly reflects my fear and
>depression over this problem; and the ruler of the 6th is combust -
>again not a good sign for health. The moon in Capricorn and in a
>late degree is another one of the considerations against judgement.
>Sorry I don't have a copy of the chart to post to the list but I
>would love to get some other opionions - like, maybe I'm overreaching
>and the chart says that there is nothing to worry about? And what
>rules the end of the matter - the fourth house cusp which rules the
>querent (me) or the 9th (the end of a 6th house - health - matter)?
>Also - although I didn't directly ask the question about getting
>better - that is certainly my hope. Heavens knows, I don't want to
>progress into Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. But, since I didn't ask that at
>the time of posing the question, is it accurate to look at the chart
>in terms of my hope of regaining my health? And feedback would be
>appreciated.

Dear Nancy,

Chart drawn for date, time and place you gave.

There is no aspect between Mars, your ruler, and Mercury, ruler of the
illness 6th. As to Saturn on the Ascendant, Saturn does reflect your worry
about your condition affecting your profession (Saturn ruler 10th). In your
10th, the Moon is applying to Neptune of worry disposited by Saturn of
self-doubt.

Venus, ruler of your 2nd of personal resources, is in the 8th of transition
applying to Pluto of change in publishing Sagittarius. You can overcome
this condition, but you must consider changes in how you do your work. Mars
semi-square the Moon the ruler 4th where Fortuna is found opposing the
Moon-Neptune conjunction suggests it won't be easy for you to adjust to
changes in the way you work. This is confirmed by Saturn retro and fallen
opposed fallen Sun conjoined Mercury all exactly on the horizon.

Warm Regards,




Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Marsha
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:42:40 +0930

Dear fellow listers:

My friend Marsha, who was in the middle of a life crisis and asked the
question will the money come before Christmas" and received a resounding no
answer. At the time, it seemed that this long-promised money was her only
hope.

While being very disappointed with a "no" answer - she gave much thought
about the consequences of more delays surrounding the money, with the
possibility of years, and decided to be more aggressive about her own
ambitions. Although she will not be making immediate major changes - she
has worked out a totally different strategy - with definite milestones and
achievement points. She would not have done this without the "No" answer.
She is happy with her new battle plan.

Many thanks to all those who helped.
bye


Thread: Saturn
From: JohnWm <suntime@telis.org> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 06:07:46 PDT

Dear Stelliums@halcyon.com

I am unclear about your chart:
" Since I have transiting Saturn entering my 4th
house (10/27) Opposing Venus in the 9th house in Libra, can i assume..."
If your Venus is indeed in the 9th house, the Saturn effects should have allready been manifesting in your life since the transit is ending and not beginning. Have you had local problems, family disputs with siblings (difficult communication), or poor relations with the neighbors, or taken on new responsibilities in the neighborhood, or is there some external 9th house problem?

Cordially,
John
ZEAL without KNOWLEDGE is FIRE without LIGHT <Fuller>


Thread: House meanings
From: maieutica@tassie.net.au Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:01:21 +1100

Dear Sunregulus
Deb Holding has a good article on the houses on her Astrology World web
site. Originally published in the Traditional Astrologer.

astrologyworld.com

Christine


At 10:08 AM 12/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Does anyone have some good definitions of the 12 houses?
>
>thanks
>
>Sunregulus
>
>


Thread: Refranation?
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 04:19:51 EDT


Thanks for your answers, Frank. Very helpful and much appreciated, once again.

Re cadent = comings-and-goings, I found this most illuminating, on this basis
what do succeedent and angular houses represent? I have always seen them more
in terms of timing, but a specific area of activity could be most useful.

Many thanks

Angela


Thread: Saturn Opposing Venus
From: Stelliums@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:39:22 -0400 (EDT)

I read someplace that Saturn Opposing Venus (among other definitions) has to
do with an outpouring of emotional feelings coming to you, that you might
find difficult to handle. Since I have transiting Saturn entering my 4th
house (10/27) Opposing Venus in the 9th house in Libra, can i assume that I
will be working on my home (repairs), OR difficulties and obstacles in money
matters, OR keeping with a much more traditional approach a woman (venus) of
age difference (saturn) entering the home? This aspect is in effect until
12/15

At the same time (within 9 days 11/6) I have Juptiter by transit (2) trining
my natal Venus in 9th again in Libra until 11/23

Since Venus will be so prominent for the next 45 days, can anyone shed any
light on this influence?

Thanks


Thread: House meanings
From: SUNREGULUS@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:08:57 -0400 (EDT)

Does anyone have some good definitions of the 12 houses?

thanks

Sunregulus

Thread: Refranation + VOC Moon
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 07:46:52 -0400

At 10:21 AM 10/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>The general view seems to be that the Moon is void of course in the chart
>which has been discussed re. refranation.
>
>May I suggest this is not the case?
>

>
>The fact that the perfection of this square does not occur until the Sun and
>Moon have moved into Libra does not make the Moon void of course:
>
>"If the two planets should be in two signs and each one of them should be in
>the force of each other's body, they must not be said to be in conjunction
>because they are in different signs. That is the opinion of the ancient
>scientists but I, Abraham, the compiler of this book disagree with them. I
>shall reserve my explanation for the Book of Nativities."
>
>p. 209 "The Beginning of Wisdom" - Abraham ibn Ezra
>
>I'm afraid I don't know whether the book of nativities was ever written or,
>if so, whether it is available.
>
>Lilly would seem to endorse this ibn Ezra given the way he judges the chart
>on page 471 of Christian Astrology.
>
>The question concerns the possible release of the querent's husband from
>prison.
>
>The positive judgement is derived from the Moon at 29 Aquarius applying to a
>sextile with Saturn at 0 degrees 17' Taurus and thence to a trine with
>Jupiter at 5 degrees 58' Cancer.
>
>The Moon's change of sign does not deny perfection.
>
>All the best,
>Jonathon

Dear Jonathon,

The keyword from Lilly is "applying." Lilly does not move the Moon in order
to sextile Saturn or trine Jupiter. The Moon at 29Aqu is still VOC. In the
classical definition, Moon (or any applying planet) is VOC if it makes no
major aspect prior to leaving the sign she's in. However, Lilly concedes
the condition "slightly" VOC which means that the Moon is not making any
aspects for a certain period in her travel within a sign. Either way, the
Moon making no aspect in her travels does show a period of no activity
concerning the question at hand. When the Moon changes sign and starts
making aspects, activity is renewed, but in a different way. Were it not
so, the signs we use and their demarcation points (cusps) would be
meaningless.

As to "perfection", the Moon VOC is a caution to judgement, not a denial of
perfection. When the Moon changes sign, she shows a change of function,
activity and focus toward whatever the she concerns.

As a caveat, one should be aware that platic aspects are different in
strength and, perhaps character, from partile aspects. In a conjunction,
one should recognize that having Mercury (for example) at 28Vir and Sun at
1Lib requires a different reading than if both were in the same sign and
same degree.

Warm Regards,




Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Refranation + VOC Moon
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:34:20 +0930

treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)At 10:21 AM 11/10/97
-0700, you wrote:
>
>The fact that the perfection of this square does not occur until the Sun and
>Moon have moved into Libra does not make the Moon void of course:

In the given chart - the Moon was at 21 Gemini 51 and the Sun at 29 Virgo 54
- The Moon would still be Gemini when the the Sun went into Libra. In your
example - the Moon changed sign not the Sun, and the orb was only 1 degree.
If Refranation only applies to Retrograde planets - then where does this
leave the 21 Gemini Moon?

Best wishes





Thread: Refranation + VOC Moon
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:21:27 -0700

The general view seems to be that the Moon is void of course in the chart
which has been discussed re. refranation.

May I suggest this is not the case?



The fact that the perfection of this square does not occur until the Sun and
Moon have moved into Libra does not make the Moon void of course:

"If the two planets should be in two signs and each one of them should be in
the force of each other's body, they must not be said to be in conjunction
because they are in different signs. That is the opinion of the ancient
scientists but I, Abraham, the compiler of this book disagree with them. I
shall reserve my explanation for the Book of Nativities."

p. 209 "The Beginning of Wisdom" - Abraham ibn Ezra

I'm afraid I don't know whether the book of nativities was ever written or,
if so, whether it is available.

Lilly would seem to endorse this ibn Ezra given the way he judges the chart
on page 471 of Christian Astrology.

The question concerns the possible release of the querent's husband from
prison.

The positive judgement is derived from the Moon at 29 Aquarius applying to a
sextile with Saturn at 0 degrees 17' Taurus and thence to a trine with
Jupiter at 5 degrees 58' Cancer.

The Moon's change of sign does not deny perfection.

All the best,
Jonathon


>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Refranation?
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:16:49 -0400

At 04:10 AM 10/10/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>I must compliment you on another superb chart interpretation, not only
>informative, but so instructive too. If you don't mind, I think I'm going
>to start keeping hard copies of your interpretations, they are worthwhile
>lessons in themselves.

Thank you. I don't mind at all.
>
>Re this current chart, you say the"Moon being common and cadent confirms
>that you're not going to get where you want to go with this chart. Added
>debilities are that Moon is VOC (you are wandering in the counselling 9th)."
>
>The Moon being common and cadent obviously does not make for a very strong
>Moon, but why did you interpret as "not going to get where you want to go"?
>(I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation, just curious to know what
>indicates what, or if it is more of a generalisation for a weak Moon).

In general, cadent houses concern comings-and-goings, i.e., travel. Common
signs indicate unplanned changes due to contingent circumstances. The Moon
times functioning activity. With a VOC Moon (activity ceases), common and
cadent, one "can't get there from here." The only out would be a mutual
reception.
>
>Secondly, I can understand why counselling would belong to the 9th, but
>would like to explore this a little more. Presumably this is as a subject
>rather than a profession, which would be the 10th? How would you define
>counselling as being 9th house? Professional advice? Insight?

The 9th house is mental. It contains the "higher" mind of philosophy,
professional judgement, insight, the ability to make sense of abstractions.
The results are found in the 10th. (As a side issue, note that querent's
co-ruler Moon is found in 9th of counselling which is the quesited's 11th
of friends.)
>
>Lastly, how do you use 'peregrine'? I know Lilly states that a peregrine
>planet does little, but can be a potential cause of trouble as a wanderer
etc,
>but I have found in most charts very often the greater number of planets are
>peregrine and have wondered what sort of interpretation should be placed on
>that.

Peregrine planets are those without any essential dignity. Lilly is correct
that the peregrine are a "potential" cause of trouble. It's up to the
astrologer to evaluate and judge. I would attach no particular importance
to them unless they are aspected to a ruler or co-ruler, or are involved
with a translation, collection or abscission of light, or have accidental
dignity by house, or are found in the houses of the querent or quesited.
>
>Sorry, the really last one ...... POF on exact MC degree, friend's 12th, not
>boding well - why?

Consider the implications of the 12th. It is confinement, voluntary or
involuntary, self-undoing, private enemies, damaging secrets, etc. The POF
there means that the quesited (in this case) is making the most of
unfortunate circumstances, those circumstances being beyond quesited's
control. It is hope against all odds.

>Is this linked with Sun and Moon above the horizon showing
>something hidden coming to light?

Yes, that plus Sun illuminating 12th of Things Hidden.

>Why wouldn't POF on this cusp be a positive
>indication? I know the 12th is an 'unfortunate' house, but could POF on
>its cusp 'lighten' any potential hazards?

For Anne, it is (her 10th); for her friend, it is not. Look at the POF
dispositor for further insight. In Anne's chart, POF dispositor is the
Moon. Here we have the hopeless Moon dispositing a 12th-house Fortuna which
confirms quesited's ruler Sun in the 29th degree of crisis in quesited's
2nd of personal finances. I really don't know how one could "lighten" this
to a client.

I am obligated to say, also, that we are not dealing with potentials or
theoreticals here. We have a real quesited who is in deep, serious, very
real trouble confirmed specifically in every way by the chart. We have a
real astrologer/querent who is torn between the solid truth of astrology
and her love for her friend confirmed specifically in every way by the
chart. We must deal with life and astrology as it is, not how we would like
it to be.

Warm Regards,


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Lunar Returns
From: SUNREGULUS@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:36:08 -0400 (EDT)

What are the most important aspects, houses and planets to be considered in
the lunar return???? What orbs in aspect should be used??

Sunregulus

Thread: (Fwd) Status of RSI?
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:15:00 +0100

Dear Nancy,

Would you mind giving your birth data, also? I am personally very interested
in astrology and health. I recently got a masters degree in healthy
psychology and some of my research was in the application of astrology to
this area of medicine looking at the effects of stress on a patient's
ability to adjust to illness or disability and the possible impact on the
immune system, (as in psychoimmunology) etc.

I find your question very interesting and will certainly look at it and
hopefully learn from it.

Regards,

Pat.

>The list has been particulary interesting in that last week - the
>questions about job and health strike me as particularly relevant. In
>fact, I am coming out of lurkdom (lurker mode?) to ask a question of
>my own to the list.
>
>I have tendinitis and, due to my work load, I fear that it is getting
>worse. I posed the question:
>
>Is my RSI getting worse?:
>Date: 10/9/97
>Time: 6:30pm
>Place: SF, CA (122w25, 37n47)
>
>The chart certainly reflects the malefic nature of this condition
>with Saturn retrograde in the first house and the ruler (Mars) in the
>8th. I know that Saturn in the first is an impediment and "messes
>things up" according to Anthony Lewis. However, given the nature of
>my injury - is a negative chart a good thing under these
>circumstances? Saturn rising certainly reflects my fear and
>depression over this problem; and the ruler of the 6th is combust -
>again not a good sign for health. The moon in Capricorn and in a
>late degree is another one of the considerations against judgement.
>Sorry I don't have a copy of the chart to post to the list but I
>would love to get some other opionions - like, maybe I'm overreaching
>and the chart says that there is nothing to worry about? And what
>rules the end of the matter - the fourth house cusp which rules the
>querent (me) or the 9th (the end of a 6th house - health - matter)?
>Also - although I didn't directly ask the question about getting
>better - that is certainly my hope. Heavens knows, I don't want to
>progress into Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. But, since I didn't ask that at
>the time of posing the question, is it accurate to look at the chart
>in terms of my hope of regaining my health? And feedback would be
>appreciated.
>
>And again- thanks to Sue and all for this wonderful list. This is
>one of the most civilized and informed astrology discussions in the
>internet.
>
>Namaste,
>Nancy Ewart
>Purchasing
>UCSF AIDS Program, SFGH
>==================================
>


Thread: Bill Gates Birth Data
From: "Claudia D. Dikinis" <starcats@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:54:47 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hi, Lilies,

I am recovering from acute bronchitis, therefore, I am not tracking too
well. I seem to recall that one of our group submitted the data for
Bill Gates' natal chart. Could I prevail upon you to resend that
information?

By the way, this year is supposed to be quite nasty in terms of new
viruses floating around. Please take care of yourselves! I don't want
to see any of you go through what I have undergone these past two
weeks!!

Peace Always.

--
Best Wishes from Your StarGazer,

StarCats

For information on how
to set an appointment with
me for your chart reading,
e-mail me and I will send
you my FAQ sheet!


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Thread: Status of RSI?
From: "Nancy Ewart" <newart@sfaids.ucsf.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:16:56 -0800



The list has been particulary interesting in that last week - the
questions about job and health strike me as particularly relevant. In
fact, I am coming out of lurkdom (lurker mode?) to ask a question of
my own to the list.

I have tendinitis and, due to my work load, I fear that it is getting
worse. I posed the question:

Is my RSI getting worse?:
Date: 10/9/97
Time: 6:30pm
Place: SF, CA (122w25, 37n47)

The chart certainly reflects the malefic nature of this condition
with Saturn retrograde in the first house and the ruler (Mars) in the
8th. I know that Saturn in the first is an impediment and "messes
things up" according to Anthony Lewis. However, given the nature of
my injury - is a negative chart a good thing under these
circumstances? Saturn rising certainly reflects my fear and
depression over this problem; and the ruler of the 6th is combust -
again not a good sign for health. The moon in Capricorn and in a
late degree is another one of the considerations against judgement.
Sorry I don't have a copy of the chart to post to the list but I
would love to get some other opionions - like, maybe I'm overreaching
and the chart says that there is nothing to worry about? And what
rules the end of the matter - the fourth house cusp which rules the
querent (me) or the 9th (the end of a 6th house - health - matter)?
Also - although I didn't directly ask the question about getting
better - that is certainly my hope. Heavens knows, I don't want to
progress into Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. But, since I didn't ask that at
the time of posing the question, is it accurate to look at the chart
in terms of my hope of regaining my health? And feedback would be
appreciated.

And again- thanks to Sue and all for this wonderful list. This is
one of the most civilized and informed astrology discussions in the
internet.

Namaste,
Nancy Ewart
Purchasing
UCSF AIDS Program, SFGH

Thread: Refranation?
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:07:35 -0400

At 07:24 AM 10/10/97 +0930, you wrote:

>***I don't think she is worried about being prosecuted - it was a fairly
>passive case which she and her mother have already won - the problem is some
>kind of international law and the layers are arguing back and forth on
>points of law, and this is what is causing the delay. She wants to move
>interestate to semi-retire so that she can devote more time to her ageing
>mother and dependent adult child - not to escape the law - sorry for the
>confusion***

OK. That explains the 12th house connection.
>
>>Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?
>
>Refranation occurs when an applying planet turns retrograde prior to
>completing an aspect.
>*** Is the Moon being unable to make and aspect to the Sun before it leaves
>Virgo and goes into Libra also refranation or does it just apply to
>retograde planets?***

Just to applying planets that make retrograde station before completing an
aspect. In refranation, the person signified by the applying planet slows
activity concerning the question, stops, and then backs away and drops the
issue. In the case of a planet changing sign before an applying planet can
complete an aspect, the person signified by the applying planet discovers
that circumstances have changed and his activity concerning the question no
longer applies (essentially VOC).
>
>In this case, the Moon is unable to make an aspect
>(which would be square) to the Sun prior to the Sun leaving Virgo. As your
>friend's ruler, Sun, leaves Virgo for Libra, she is unhappy where she is
>and seeks change (or escape) by moving.
>
>***Very unhappy - but other people's lives will be affected by her move and
>as this money is supposed to be "coming" - she is trying to go interestate
>with as little disruption as possible. When I read the chart for her - I
>said that the last aspect was Moon square to the Sun - she would not get the
>money by Christmas, more delays - possible one of the principals would be
>out of the picture or in hospital, etc. and Marsha just told me that the
>lawyer was off the case again because his wife was in hospital with cancer
>and the other partner was out of state on another case.***

Good intuition! Delays we can count on because of the pervasive miserable
condition of Saturn. Also, all the timing indicators on this chart are in
years, rather than days or weeks. I should advise that lawyers are not
principals unless they are named parties to the legal action. They are
counsellors (9th). Here we have Mercury in 12th, ruling the 12th of
confinement and ruling Gemini 9th (more than one counsellor). On the Gemini
9th, we have travel. However, Muercury (lawyers' ruler) does sextile
Fortuna and Venus.
>
>
>*** In passing someone on the list suggested I look for a description of my
>friend in the chart - she is very Scorpionic - and I just realized that the
>Mars at 25 Scorpio in the Horary chart is conjunct her natal 25 Scorpio
>Mercury conj Sun and the Venus at 12 Scorpio in the Horary chart is conjunct
>her natal Mars at 14 Scorpio ***

That connects the horary chart to your friend, but does not describe your
friend in this situation. Horary planets aspecting your friend's birth
planets are transits to her birth chart, not progressions to her birth
planets. In horary, the rule is that any quesited is described by the house
where they fall in due course, not by transiting connections to a birth chart.

As a more proper astrological perspective, take your friend's birth chart
and distribute the horary planets as transits to that chart.
>
>Dear Frank
>Thanks for your insight - as you said, because I want it to happen for her
>- I can't see this chart clearly. Again, many thanks. I learned heaps from
>this chart!!!!

You're welcome, Anne.

Warm Regards,


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Refranation?
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:09:06 +0930

Dear Anne
..... For your friend, detrimented Venus is in her near-neighbor 3rd
>squaring retro Jupiter in her public-enemy 7th. It doesn't look promising.

***She just sent me a message (3rd) saying that her lawyer was again
temporarily unable to work on her case. (7). Whichever way you look at this
chart - it seems to scream no.

Marsha's daughter, who has been more than generous over the years, is now
forced to sell the house Marsha is living in - so Marsha has to move. At
the moment, She has a well-paid job but is not happy with it. If she moves
interstate - she will have no job, no house, a dependent mother and
dependent adult child. The money has been awarded to them by the court -
and has been contested and recontested by various lawyers for a number of
years - her lawyers say the money should be coming "soon". If she were a
free agent - I think she would quit her unhappy job and take her chances
interstate - but the concerns for her mother and dependent son are holding
her back. I think the horary chart - which ever way you look at - just
shows her frustration.

Thanks for your help - as I said before - I learned heaps on this one.
bye





At 07:24 AM 10/10/97 +0930, you wrote:
>I have never answered a long letter on a list before - so if I have left in
>too much or snipped out too much - please forgive me. Many thanks to all who
>helped.
>
>>I am having a lot unusual amount of trouble trying to read a chart with
>>Saturn on the Desc. I asked the question about a friend and her mother who
>>have been in litigation for many years about a work-related illness. All
>>court actions so far say they should be receiving a fair amount of money -
>>but there has been delay after delay for many years.
>>
>>On 23 Sept 1997 - 7:01 am ACST (-9:30) Adelaide, 34S55 138E35 - Asc 20 Libra
>>13 (Via combust!) I asked the question "Will my friend get her money before
>>Christmas and will she move to another State? Saturn is at 18 Aries
>>Retrograde. As I asked the question, I took my friend to be the 7th house =
>>Mars - which is on the 2nd House cusp - or my friend's 8th House - she is
>>with other people's money. Venus rules her 2nd House and is in her 7th of
>>lawyers at 12 Scorpio 29 - applying to her Mars at 25 Scorpio and exactly
>>square Jupiter Retrograde at 12 Aquarius 29 - which seems to indicate her
>>legal problems.
>
>Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>
>Dear Anne,
>Let us first take up the querent (you) at 20Lib13 rising ruled by Venus and
>co-ruled by the Moon. Scorpio Venus in the 1st squares retro Aquarius
>Jupiter in the 5th. You are having difficulty reading this chart because
>you are hoping for a favorable outcome where there is none.
>*** I think this is very true!!***
>Confirm that Saturn rules 5th and disposits Jupiter plus Jupiter separating
>from sextile to Saturn. Saturn also rules EOM 4th and disposits both Neptune
>and Uranus. Delay upon delay, false starts and confusion. Saturn is too
>close to the 7th cusp to disregard.
>
>Your co-ruler Moon, common and cadent, confirms that you're not going to
>get where you want to go with this chart. Added debilities are that Moon is
>VOC (you are wandering in the counselling 9th).
>>
>>The Moon is peregrine at 21 Gem is is conjunct the 9th house cusp - she is
>>having trouble with the law and also wants to move interstate - so that
>>seems right - but will she get the money before Christmas? The moon makes a
>>quincunx to her Mars and then a Quincunx to Neptune at 27 Cap which is also
>>retrograde - more uncertainty - and the Moons's last aspect would be a
>>square to the Sun at 29 Virgo 54.
>
>I believe your friend would be in the friend-and-acquaintance 11th, rather
>than in the partner 7th, unless I misread the relationship.
>**She is a friend of many years standing - but when I did the chart - in my
>head I asked "Will Marsha get the money" - so perhaps because I had used her
>name I decided on the 7th House (which puts Saturn there! - mistake #1!). **
>
>If so, her ruler is the Sun in the 12th which becomes her 2nd. (The problem is
>two-fold. Your friend is not only worried about money, but also about being
>prosecuted.)
>
>***I don't think she is worried about being prosecuted - it was a fairly
>passive case which she and her mother have already won - the problem is some
>kind of international law and the layers are arguing back and forth on
>points of law, and this is what is causing the delay. She wants to move
>interestate to semi-retire so that she can devote more time to her ageing
>mother and dependent adult child - not to escape the law - sorry for the
>confusion***
>
>Unfortunately, her ruler is VOC and in the 29th degree, so what's done is
>done. The Part of Fortune on the exact MC degree, your friend's 12th, does
>not bode well for your friend. That which was hidden will come to light as
>both Sun and Moon are above the horizon.
>>
>>Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?
>
>Refranation occurs when an applying planet turns retrograde prior to
>completing an aspect.
>*** Is the Moon being unable to make and aspect to the Sun before it leaves
>Virgo and goes into Libra also refranation or does it just apply to
>retograde planets?***
>
>In this case, the Moon is unable to make an aspect
>(which would be square) to the Sun prior to the Sun leaving Virgo. As your
>friend's ruler, Sun, leaves Virgo for Libra, she is unhappy where she is
>and seeks change (or escape) by moving.
>
>***Very unhappy - but other people's lives will be affected by her move and
>as this money is supposed to be "coming" - she is trying to go interestate
>with as little disruption as possible. When I read the chart for her - I
>said that the last aspect was Moon square to the Sun - she would not get the
>money by Christmas, more delays - possible one of the principals would be
>out of the picture or in hospital, etc. and Marsha just told me that the
>lawyer was off the case again because his wife was in hospital with cancer
>and the other partner was out of state on another case.***
>
>She may do this unexpectedly.
>>
>>In that case - would the Moon be considered VOC - and she won't get her
>>money - or should I be looking more closely at the Venus square Jupiter
>>connection?
>
>Yes, the Moon should be considered VOC. For you, Venus, your ruler is
>detrimented in Scorpio square a peregrine retro Jupiter, already covered
>above. For your friend, detrimented Venus is in her near-neighbor 3rd
>squaring retro Jupiter in her public-enemy 7th. It doesn't look promising.
>
>*** In passing someone on the list suggested I look for a description of my
>friend in the chart - she is very Scorpionic - and I just realized that the
>Mars at 25 Scorpio in the Horary chart is conjunct her natal 25 Scorpio
>Mercury conj Sun and the Venus at 12 Scorpio in the Horary chart is conjunct
>her natal Mars at 14 Scorpio ***
>
>Dear Frank
>Thanks for your insight - as you said, because I want it to happen for her
>- I can't see this chart clearly. Again, many thanks. I learned heaps from
>this chart!!!!
>
>


Thread: Refranation?
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:10:33 EDT


Hi Frank,

I must compliment you on another superb chart interpretation, not only
informative, but so instructive too. If you don't mind, I think I'm going
to start keeping hard copies of your interpretations, they are worthwhile
lessons in themselves.

Re this current chart, you say the"Moon being common and cadent confirms
that you're not going to get where you want to go with this chart. Added
debilities are that Moon is VOC (you are wandering in the counselling 9th)."

The Moon being common and cadent obviously does not make for a very strong
Moon, but why did you interpret as "not going to get where you want to go"?
(I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation, just curious to know what
indicates what, or if it is more of a generalisation for a weak Moon).

Secondly, I can understand why counselling would belong to the 9th, but
would like to explore this a little more. Presumably this is as a subject
rather than a profession, which would be the 10th? How would you define
counselling as being 9th house? Professional advice? Insight?

Lastly, how do you use 'peregrine'? I know Lilly states that a peregrine
planet does little, but can be a potential cause of trouble as a wanderer etc,
but I have found in most charts very often the greater number of planets are
peregrine and have wondered what sort of interpretation should be placed on
that.

Sorry, the really last one ...... POF on exact MC degree, friend's 12th, not
boding well - why? Is this linked with Sun and Moon above the horizon showing
something hidden coming to light? Why wouldn't POF on this cusp be a positive
indication? I know the 12th is an 'unfortunate' house, but could POF on
its cusp 'lighten' any potential hazards?

Thanks

Angela


Thread: Refranation?
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:42:51 +0930

At 01:31 AM 9/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Ann,
>
>>I am having a lot unusual amount of trouble trying to read a chart with
>>Saturn on the Desc. I asked the question about a friend and her mother who
>>have been in litigation for many years about a work-related illness. All
>>court actions so far say they should be receiving a fair amount of money -
>>but there has been delay after delay for many years.
>>
>>On 23 Sept 1997 - 7:01 am ACST (-9:30) Adelaide, 34S55 138E35 - Asc 20 Libra
>>13 (Via combust!) I asked the question "Will my friend get her money before
>>Christmas and will she move to another State? Saturn is at 18 Aries
>>Retrograde. As I asked the question, I took my friend to be the 7th house
>
>I don't understand why you have used the 7th. house to signify your friend,
>wouldn't the elventh be more appropriate (p.56, Christian Astrology)?

** Yes, I should have used the 11th. But it doesn't look too promising for
her there, either!

>If she is signified by the eleventh then I'm not sure the chart is radical;
>Mars, ruler of the hour would then appear in the turned fourth which isn't
>really a key house whereas if you take your friend as the seventh then Mars
>is in the turned eighth which clearly is relevant. The usual test is to
look for supporting evidence, particularly physical description. Which fits
your friend better - Sun in Virgo for the eleventh or Mars in Scorpio for
the seventh?
>
When I was replying to Frank - I couldn't find your letter suggesting that I
look for a description of my friend in the chart - and she goes to the chart
beautifully - (if you can call a strong Scorpio connection beautiful!)

She is very Scorpionic - the Mars at 25 Scorpio in the Horary chart is
conjunct her natal 25 Scorpio Mercury conj Sun and the Venus at 12 Scorpio
in the Horary chart is conjunct her natal Mars at 14 Scorpio

>Best Wishes,
>Jonathon
>
Thanks for your help - it was really important to find that strong connection.
>
>=
>>Mars - which is on the 2nd House cusp - or my friend's 8th House - she is
>>with other people's money. Venus rules her 2nd House and is in her 7th of
>>lawyers at 12 Scorpio 29 - applying to her Mars at 25 Scorpio and exactly
>>square Jupiter Retrograde at 12 Aquarius 29 - which seems to indicate her
>>legal problems.
>>
>>The Moon is peregrine at 21 Gem is is conjunct the 9th house cusp - she is
>>having trouble with the law and also wants to move interstate - so that
>>seems right - but will she get the money before Christmas? The moon makes a
>>quincunx to her Mars and then a Quincunx to Neptune at 27 Cap which is also
>>retrograde - more uncertainty - and the Moons's last aspect would be a
>>square to the Sun at 29 Virgo 54.
>>
>>Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?
>>
>>In that case - would the Moon be considered VOC - and she won't get her
>>money - or should I be looking more closely at the Venus square Jupiter
>>connection?
>>
>>Any comments would be appreciated. bye
>>
>>PS: T'lad from Y'shire - I am a Lancashire lass living downunder and I too
>>regard Saturn in the 10th with great respect.
>>
>>bye
>>
>>
>>
>Visit the Tree of Life website at:
>http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife
>
>


Thread: Refranation?
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:32:48 +0930

At 02:25 PM 9/10/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi, Anne,
>>I am actually a "lass" from Yorkshire - I had forgotten that "Pat" is a
>neutral gender name! *** Oop's ***
>
>Would your friend really be 7th? Isn't she more likely to be the 11th?
>Unless the relationship you have with her is more like a business or other
>close partnership.

** Yes, I should have used the 11th. She is a personal friend of many years
- but because I wrote will Marsha get the money - I automatically used 7th -
which put Saturn on the 7th - mistake #1.

Even if I do that chart for the 11th House - it doesn't look like she will
get the money in time to make the major life change she wants. But that's
life, isn't it.
tata for now!






>
>Regards,
>
>Pat.
>
>
>
>>I am having a lot unusual amount of trouble trying to read a chart with
>>Saturn on the Desc. I asked the question about a friend and her mother who
>>have been in litigation for many years about a work-related illness. All
>>court actions so far say they should be receiving a fair amount of money -
>>but there has been delay after delay for many years.
>>
>>On 23 Sept 1997 - 7:01 am ACST (-9:30) Adelaide, 34S55 138E35 - Asc 20 Libra
>>13 (Via combust!) I asked the question "Will my friend get her money before
>>Christmas and will she move to another State? Saturn is at 18 Aries
>>Retrograde. As I asked the question, I took my friend to be the 7th house =
>>Mars - which is on the 2nd House cusp - or my friend's 8th House - she is
>>with other people's money. Venus rules her 2nd House and is in her 7th of
>>lawyers at 12 Scorpio 29 - applying to her Mars at 25 Scorpio and exactly
>>square Jupiter Retrograde at 12 Aquarius 29 - which seems to indicate her
>>legal problems.
>>
>>The Moon is peregrine at 21 Gem is is conjunct the 9th house cusp - she is
>>having trouble with the law and also wants to move interstate - so that
>>seems right - but will she get the money before Christmas? The moon makes a
>>quincunx to her Mars and then a Quincunx to Neptune at 27 Cap which is also
>>retrograde - more uncertainty - and the Moons's last aspect would be a
>>square to the Sun at 29 Virgo 54.
>>
>>Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?
>>
>>In that case - would the Moon be considered VOC - and she won't get her
>>money - or should I be looking more closely at the Venus square Jupiter
>>connection?
>>
>>Any comments would be appreciated. bye
>>
>>PS: T'lad from Y'shire - I am a Lancashire lass living downunder and I too
>>regard Saturn in the 10th with great respect.
>>
>>bye
>>
>>
>
>


Thread: Refranation?
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:24:13 +0930

I have never answered a long letter on a list before - so if I have left in
too much or snipped out too much - please forgive me. Many thanks to all who
helped.

>I am having a lot unusual amount of trouble trying to read a chart with
>Saturn on the Desc. I asked the question about a friend and her mother who
>have been in litigation for many years about a work-related illness. All
>court actions so far say they should be receiving a fair amount of money -
>but there has been delay after delay for many years.
>
>On 23 Sept 1997 - 7:01 am ACST (-9:30) Adelaide, 34S55 138E35 - Asc 20 Libra
>13 (Via combust!) I asked the question "Will my friend get her money before
>Christmas and will she move to another State? Saturn is at 18 Aries
>Retrograde. As I asked the question, I took my friend to be the 7th house =
>Mars - which is on the 2nd House cusp - or my friend's 8th House - she is
>with other people's money. Venus rules her 2nd House and is in her 7th of
>lawyers at 12 Scorpio 29 - applying to her Mars at 25 Scorpio and exactly
>square Jupiter Retrograde at 12 Aquarius 29 - which seems to indicate her
>legal problems.

Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>
Dear Anne,
Let us first take up the querent (you) at 20Lib13 rising ruled by Venus and
co-ruled by the Moon. Scorpio Venus in the 1st squares retro Aquarius
Jupiter in the 5th. You are having difficulty reading this chart because
you are hoping for a favorable outcome where there is none.
*** I think this is very true!!***
Confirm that Saturn rules 5th and disposits Jupiter plus Jupiter separating
from sextile to Saturn. Saturn also rules EOM 4th and disposits both Neptune
and Uranus. Delay upon delay, false starts and confusion. Saturn is too
close to the 7th cusp to disregard.

Your co-ruler Moon, common and cadent, confirms that you're not going to
get where you want to go with this chart. Added debilities are that Moon is
VOC (you are wandering in the counselling 9th).
>
>The Moon is peregrine at 21 Gem is is conjunct the 9th house cusp - she is
>having trouble with the law and also wants to move interstate - so that
>seems right - but will she get the money before Christmas? The moon makes a
>quincunx to her Mars and then a Quincunx to Neptune at 27 Cap which is also
>retrograde - more uncertainty - and the Moons's last aspect would be a
>square to the Sun at 29 Virgo 54.

I believe your friend would be in the friend-and-acquaintance 11th, rather
than in the partner 7th, unless I misread the relationship.
**She is a friend of many years standing - but when I did the chart - in my
head I asked "Will Marsha get the money" - so perhaps because I had used her
name I decided on the 7th House (which puts Saturn there! - mistake #1!). **

If so, her ruler is the Sun in the 12th which becomes her 2nd. (The problem is
two-fold. Your friend is not only worried about money, but also about being
prosecuted.)

***I don't think she is worried about being prosecuted - it was a fairly
passive case which she and her mother have already won - the problem is some
kind of international law and the layers are arguing back and forth on
points of law, and this is what is causing the delay. She wants to move
interestate to semi-retire so that she can devote more time to her ageing
mother and dependent adult child - not to escape the law - sorry for the
confusion***

Unfortunately, her ruler is VOC and in the 29th degree, so what's done is
done. The Part of Fortune on the exact MC degree, your friend's 12th, does
not bode well for your friend. That which was hidden will come to light as
both Sun and Moon are above the horizon.
>
>Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?

Refranation occurs when an applying planet turns retrograde prior to
completing an aspect.
*** Is the Moon being unable to make and aspect to the Sun before it leaves
Virgo and goes into Libra also refranation or does it just apply to
retograde planets?***

In this case, the Moon is unable to make an aspect
(which would be square) to the Sun prior to the Sun leaving Virgo. As your
friend's ruler, Sun, leaves Virgo for Libra, she is unhappy where she is
and seeks change (or escape) by moving.

***Very unhappy - but other people's lives will be affected by her move and
as this money is supposed to be "coming" - she is trying to go interestate
with as little disruption as possible. When I read the chart for her - I
said that the last aspect was Moon square to the Sun - she would not get the
money by Christmas, more delays - possible one of the principals would be
out of the picture or in hospital, etc. and Marsha just told me that the
lawyer was off the case again because his wife was in hospital with cancer
and the other partner was out of state on another case.***

She may do this unexpectedly.
>
>In that case - would the Moon be considered VOC - and she won't get her
>money - or should I be looking more closely at the Venus square Jupiter
>connection?

Yes, the Moon should be considered VOC. For you, Venus, your ruler is
detrimented in Scorpio square a peregrine retro Jupiter, already covered
above. For your friend, detrimented Venus is in her near-neighbor 3rd
squaring retro Jupiter in her public-enemy 7th. It doesn't look promising.

*** In passing someone on the list suggested I look for a description of my
friend in the chart - she is very Scorpionic - and I just realized that the
Mars at 25 Scorpio in the Horary chart is conjunct her natal 25 Scorpio
Mercury conj Sun and the Venus at 12 Scorpio in the Horary chart is conjunct
her natal Mars at 14 Scorpio ***

Dear Frank
Thanks for your insight - as you said, because I want it to happen for her
- I can't see this chart clearly. Again, many thanks. I learned heaps from
this chart!!!!


Thread: Refranation?
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:14:28 -0400

At 05:55 PM 10/8/97 +0930, you wrote:
>I am having a lot unusual amount of trouble trying to read a chart with
>Saturn on the Desc. I asked the question about a friend and her mother who
>have been in litigation for many years about a work-related illness. All
>court actions so far say they should be receiving a fair amount of money -
>but there has been delay after delay for many years.
>
>On 23 Sept 1997 - 7:01 am ACST (-9:30) Adelaide, 34S55 138E35 - Asc 20 Libra
>13 (Via combust!) I asked the question "Will my friend get her money before
>Christmas and will she move to another State? Saturn is at 18 Aries
>Retrograde. As I asked the question, I took my friend to be the 7th house =
>Mars - which is on the 2nd House cusp - or my friend's 8th House - she is
>with other people's money. Venus rules her 2nd House and is in her 7th of
>lawyers at 12 Scorpio 29 - applying to her Mars at 25 Scorpio and exactly
>square Jupiter Retrograde at 12 Aquarius 29 - which seems to indicate her
>legal problems.

Dear Anne,

Let us first take up the querent (you) at 20Lib13 rising ruled by Venus and
co-ruled by the Moon. Scorpio Venus in the 1st squares retro Aquarius
Jupiter in the 5th. You are having difficulty reading this chart because
you are hoping for a favorable outcome where there is none. Confirm that
Saturn rules 5th and disposits Jupiter plus Jupiter separating from sextile
to Saturn. Saturn also rules EOM 4th and disposits both Neptune and Uranus.
Delay upon delay, false starts and confusion. Saturn is too close to the
7th cusp to disregard.

Your co-ruler Moon, common and cadent, confirms that you're not going to
get where you want to go with this chart. Added debilities are that Moon is
VOC (you are wandering in the counselling 9th).
>
>The Moon is peregrine at 21 Gem is is conjunct the 9th house cusp - she is
>having trouble with the law and also wants to move interstate - so that
>seems right - but will she get the money before Christmas? The moon makes a
>quincunx to her Mars and then a Quincunx to Neptune at 27 Cap which is also
>retrograde - more uncertainty - and the Moons's last aspect would be a
>square to the Sun at 29 Virgo 54.

I believe your friend would be in the friend-and-acquaintance 11th, rather
than in the partner 7th, unless I misread the relationship. If so, her
ruler is the Sun in the 12th which becomes her 2nd. (The problem is
two-fold. Your friend is not only worried about money, but also about being
prosecuted.) Unfortunately, her ruler is VOC and in the 29th degree, so
what's done is done. The Part of Fortune on the exact MC degree, your
friend's 12th, does not bode well for your friend. That which was hidden
will come to light as both Sun and Moon are above the horizon.
>
>Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?

Refranation occurs when an applying planet turns retrograde prior to
completing an aspect. In this case, the Moon is unable to make an aspect
(which would be square) to the Sun prior to the Sun leaving Virgo. As your
friend's ruler, Sun, leaves Virgo for Libra, she is unhappy where she is
and seeks change (or escape) by moving. She may do this unexpectedly.
>
>In that case - would the Moon be considered VOC - and she won't get her
>money - or should I be looking more closely at the Venus square Jupiter
>connection?

Yes, the Moon should be considered VOC. For you, Venus, your ruler is
detrimented in Scorpio square a peregrine retro Jupiter, already covered
above. For your friend, detrimented Venus is in her near-neighbor 3rd
squaring retro Jupiter in her public-enemy 7th. It doesn't look promising.

Warm Regards,





Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Refranation?
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:25:37 +0100

Hi, Anne,

I am actually a "lass" from Yorkshire - I had forgotten that "Pat" is a
neutral gender name!

Would your friend really be 7th? Isn't she more likely to be the 11th?
Unless the relationship you have with her is more like a business or other
close partnership.

Regards,

Pat.



>I am having a lot unusual amount of trouble trying to read a chart with
>Saturn on the Desc. I asked the question about a friend and her mother who
>have been in litigation for many years about a work-related illness. All
>court actions so far say they should be receiving a fair amount of money -
>but there has been delay after delay for many years.
>
>On 23 Sept 1997 - 7:01 am ACST (-9:30) Adelaide, 34S55 138E35 - Asc 20 Libra
>13 (Via combust!) I asked the question "Will my friend get her money before
>Christmas and will she move to another State? Saturn is at 18 Aries
>Retrograde. As I asked the question, I took my friend to be the 7th house =
>Mars - which is on the 2nd House cusp - or my friend's 8th House - she is
>with other people's money. Venus rules her 2nd House and is in her 7th of
>lawyers at 12 Scorpio 29 - applying to her Mars at 25 Scorpio and exactly
>square Jupiter Retrograde at 12 Aquarius 29 - which seems to indicate her
>legal problems.
>
>The Moon is peregrine at 21 Gem is is conjunct the 9th house cusp - she is
>having trouble with the law and also wants to move interstate - so that
>seems right - but will she get the money before Christmas? The moon makes a
>quincunx to her Mars and then a Quincunx to Neptune at 27 Cap which is also
>retrograde - more uncertainty - and the Moons's last aspect would be a
>square to the Sun at 29 Virgo 54.
>
>Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?
>
>In that case - would the Moon be considered VOC - and she won't get her
>money - or should I be looking more closely at the Venus square Jupiter
>connection?
>
>Any comments would be appreciated. bye
>
>PS: T'lad from Y'shire - I am a Lancashire lass living downunder and I too
>regard Saturn in the 10th with great respect.
>
>bye
>
>


Thread: Refranation?
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:31:06 -0700

Dear Ann,


>I am having a lot unusual amount of trouble trying to read a chart with
>Saturn on the Desc. I asked the question about a friend and her mother who
>have been in litigation for many years about a work-related illness. All
>court actions so far say they should be receiving a fair amount of money -
>but there has been delay after delay for many years.
>
>On 23 Sept 1997 - 7:01 am ACST (-9:30) Adelaide, 34S55 138E35 - Asc 20 Libra
>13 (Via combust!) I asked the question "Will my friend get her money before
>Christmas and will she move to another State? Saturn is at 18 Aries
>Retrograde. As I asked the question, I took my friend to be the 7th house

I don't understand why you have used the 7th. house to signify your friend,
wouldn't the elventh be more appropriate (p.56, Christian Astrology)?

If she is signified by the eleventh then I'm not sure the chart is radical;
Mars, ruler of the hour would then appear in the turned fourth which isn't
really a key house whereas if you take your friend as the seventh then Mars
is in the turned eighth which clearly is relevant.

The usual test is to look for supporting evidence, particularly physical
description. Which fits your friend better - Sun in Virgo for the eleventh
or Mars in Scorpio for the seventh?

Best Wishes,
Jonathon


=
>Mars - which is on the 2nd House cusp - or my friend's 8th House - she is
>with other people's money. Venus rules her 2nd House and is in her 7th of
>lawyers at 12 Scorpio 29 - applying to her Mars at 25 Scorpio and exactly
>square Jupiter Retrograde at 12 Aquarius 29 - which seems to indicate her
>legal problems.
>
>The Moon is peregrine at 21 Gem is is conjunct the 9th house cusp - she is
>having trouble with the law and also wants to move interstate - so that
>seems right - but will she get the money before Christmas? The moon makes a
>quincunx to her Mars and then a Quincunx to Neptune at 27 Cap which is also
>retrograde - more uncertainty - and the Moons's last aspect would be a
>square to the Sun at 29 Virgo 54.
>
>Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?
>
>In that case - would the Moon be considered VOC - and she won't get her
>money - or should I be looking more closely at the Venus square Jupiter
>connection?
>
>Any comments would be appreciated. bye
>
>PS: T'lad from Y'shire - I am a Lancashire lass living downunder and I too
>regard Saturn in the 10th with great respect.
>
>bye
>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Job interview
From: s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:15:33 -0700

Jon, thanks for that reality check! You're right, it would have been
ghastly. Sorry I haven't responded sooner but my life kinda got in the
way.

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com


On Fri, 03 Oct 1997 18:53:21 jon <jonn@dircon.co.uk> writes:
>Think of it as being a ghastly job to have if you had got it!
>
>
>At 20:10 01/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Dear Pat:
>>
>>Thanks much for the correction; shows you what a newbie I am! ;-)
>The
>>end result is that I did not get the position. *sigh* Looking at
>Mars
>>(which was conjuncting my natal Saturn), there is not much action
>except
>>in the 6th house ruled by Aries. T Saturn is retrograde there. But
>that
>>comment about the Moon - ! The Moon, at 9 Leo, in the 9th house -
>ruled
>>by Cancer, is conjunct the MC at 12 Leo, and they oppose Uranus at 4
>>Aquarius and Jupiter at 12 Aquarius. This is compounded by a T-square
>of
>>the Ascendant at 7 Scorpio and Venus at 16 Scorpio. All of that
>certainly
>>wouldn't augur well for getting the job, would it? Again, thanks for
>the
>>pointer.
>>
>>
>>Sue
>>
>>Sue Fensalir
>>Fensalir Astrology
>>s.fensalir@juno.com
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:45:08 +0100 harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)
>>writes:
>>>Dear Sue,
>>>
>>>In traditional astrology (a la Lilly) the outer planets are not
>given
>>>rulerships of the houses so your Ascendant Lord would be Mars and
>you
>>>would
>>>need to look at that in relation to your 10th ruler, also the Moon
>as
>>>your
>>>co-ruler in the matter.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Pat.
>>>
>>>>Hi, all:
>>>>
>>>>I had a job interview this morning, and what makes it rather
>>>interesting
>>>>is that it took place on my birthday, less than a half-hour after
>my
>>>>birth time. So the Sun is in the same position in the horary chart
>
>>>and
>>>>my natal chart; the Ascendant is the same, albeit with five
>degrees'
>>>>difference. In any case, what happens when the Lord of the
>Ascendant
>>>-
>>>>Pluto - is in the First House?
>>>>
>>>>Venus follows at 16 Scorpio, Mars at 28 Scorpio and Pluto at 3
>>>>Sagittarius; all are in the 1st house. The sixth contains Saturn at
>
>>>17
>>>>Aries retrograde, quincunx Venus, and Venus/Ascendant form squares
>to
>>>>Uranus, Jupiter, Moon and MC. Pluto is nicely sextile the Sun.
>>>>
>>>>Interview: 9:30 a.m. PDT, Costa Mesa California (33N38 117W55); it
>>>>concluded at 10:05 a.m.
>>>>
>>>>(My natal data is 9-26-56, 9:06 a.m. PDT, Burbank California - use
>>>Los
>>>>Angeles coordinates)
>>>>
>>>>Thank you very much!
>>>>
>>>>Sue
>>>>
>>>>Sue Fensalir
>>>>Fensalir Astrology
>>>>s.fensalir@juno.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>Jon
>
>

Thread: Refranation?
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:55:57 +0930

I am having a lot unusual amount of trouble trying to read a chart with
Saturn on the Desc. I asked the question about a friend and her mother who
have been in litigation for many years about a work-related illness. All
court actions so far say they should be receiving a fair amount of money -
but there has been delay after delay for many years.

On 23 Sept 1997 - 7:01 am ACST (-9:30) Adelaide, 34S55 138E35 - Asc 20 Libra
13 (Via combust!) I asked the question "Will my friend get her money before
Christmas and will she move to another State? Saturn is at 18 Aries
Retrograde. As I asked the question, I took my friend to be the 7th house =
Mars - which is on the 2nd House cusp - or my friend's 8th House - she is
with other people's money. Venus rules her 2nd House and is in her 7th of
lawyers at 12 Scorpio 29 - applying to her Mars at 25 Scorpio and exactly
square Jupiter Retrograde at 12 Aquarius 29 - which seems to indicate her
legal problems.

The Moon is peregrine at 21 Gem is is conjunct the 9th house cusp - she is
having trouble with the law and also wants to move interstate - so that
seems right - but will she get the money before Christmas? The moon makes a
quincunx to her Mars and then a Quincunx to Neptune at 27 Cap which is also
retrograde - more uncertainty - and the Moons's last aspect would be a
square to the Sun at 29 Virgo 54.

Is it valid to look at the sun in this case - or is it a refranation?

In that case - would the Moon be considered VOC - and she won't get her
money - or should I be looking more closely at the Venus square Jupiter
connection?

Any comments would be appreciated. bye

PS: T'lad from Y'shire - I am a Lancashire lass living downunder and I too
regard Saturn in the 10th with great respect.

bye


Thread: October Specials and news
From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:15:58 +7

Dear Members,
As you have probably noticed from time to time during the last month
I have had to take some time away from the computer and have put the
list on automatic. It makes you wonder how some people know that and
decide to sent in their mail! So I won't be doing that again.

For October we are offering a special on the quarterly magazines from
England and Australia. This offer is to list members only. If you
have ordered from us before you can send an e-mail and let me know
what you want to order, no need to send your credit card number
because we have it on file. Or you can call or send us a fax if that
is more convenient for you.

A complete set of the TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGER (UK)
Issues #1-20 (this includes the 1998 subscription) to the US and
Canada, the regular price would be $200.00 but the special price is
$150.00. To all other countries by air mail The price would be
$300.00 but the special price is $200.00. If you would like to
have this shipped by surface mail we can do that and your price will
be the same as US price ($150.00). I think that comes out to a very
good savings for everyone.

The SOUTHERN ASTROLOGER (Australia)
Get a subscription for 1 year (4 issues) and the first issue is
free! The regular subscription price is $40.00 per year but the
special price is $30.00 to US and Canada and $50.00 to all other
countries air mail. If you would like this shipped by surface mail
the price is the same as to the US ($30.00)

We are putting the finishing touches on "Decumbiture" by Culpeper and
will have the information up at the website for those of you who are
interested.

It is getting close to the deadline for the Horary Practitioner
January issue so if you have charts with retrograde planets that you
want to contribute please get them in here as quickly as possible!
Only a couple of weeks left.

Lee Lehman is giving online horary course for the first 4 lessons and
information can be found at her website (see info at the
http://www.horary.com for the link to her page) also new
information is up at the website about Robert Zoller's Medieval
Course. We will be publishing Robert Zoller's 3 books in November
and will have those for sale.That's about all the news I have for
this time. Thank you for being such an orderly group!

Love & Light
Carol
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall

Thread: Opinion Sought on Chart
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:36:58 +0100

Hello, Curtis,

But are we to interpret strictures as preventing a sound judgement or as a
warning that whatever we do there "will be trouble At' mill" - as they say
in Yorkshire (UK) where I come from.

I interpreted a 10th house saturn chart for someone in 1995 (it was the
infamous chart, if you know it) and events unfolded exactly as I had judged
they would. However, I met intense criticism from some astrologers because
of the non-traditional approach I took.

thanks for you input,

Regards,

Pat.

>I posed the same question to Anthony Louis himself via e-mail about
>self-asked questions that have Saturn in the 7th h. His opinion of the
>matter is that it still is a stricture against judgement and therefore
>an invalidated horary chart. As I recall it was that we as the
>astrologer to ourselves had the burdon of Saturn in the way.
>
>I just brought that up as a "authoritative" clarification of the matter
>for whatever weight that carries
>
>Carry On,
>C
>
>


Thread: Progressions Report Beta Testing
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:31:16 -0400 (EDT)

I wish to thank everyone who participated. Your comments and feedback have
been very helpful. By now everyone who responded should have received a copy
of the report, and the feedback is still coming in.
I can now do a few more reports if anyone is still interested. The only
"requirement" is that you read the report and send me your comments and
suggestions about organization, clarity, usefulness, etc.

Thanks,

Tony

Thread: Age of Aquarius Celebration-Tobey Reunion
From: "Jim D'Amato" <jimdinlv@vegas.infi.net> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 23:59:23 -0700

Hi Everybody

WOW !!!! OH WOW!!!!! What A Time to be Alive

Everything is finally set for the Age of Aquarius celebration and the
Tobey-Lewi Reunion.
The Tropicana Hotel has given us a great deal. The Tropicana is on the
same corner as the MGM Grand, New York New York and the Excalibur. Rooms
are $49 on Thursday night and $75 for Friday and Saturday nights. Also
participants will get 2 for 1 on any show at the Trop and $10 per person
Casino Cash [max is $20/room].
The convention fee is only $99 untill the first of November and goes up
$10 then and an additional $10 on the ist of December. Hurry and
register.

Astrology Students please take note;
The dramatic events of this "Moon Wobble" only reinforce the value of
Carl Payne Tobey's discovery and his statistical work that proved the
"Moon Wobble" phenomenon. "Moon Wobbles" are an "Unstable TIME and
SPACE", in which dramatic releases of energy happen and people die,
sometimes in large numbers.

This "Moon Wobble's" events:

Princess Di's tragic death; car accident in Paris, Mother Teresa's died,
300 Haitians drown when a ferry capsizes and 20+ more when a boat in
Spain capsizes, terrorist attacks in Algeria, Egypt and Israel kill 75,
8 airplane crashes - 6 US Military planes with 10 dead, a helicopter in
Bosnia with 40-50 dead, and a US - German midair collision over African
waters, 30 + dead; two train crashes - 3 dead and 150 injured in London
plus 7 dead and 220+ injured in the Phillipines, a building colapse in
India 3 dead, 20+ missing, a Truck falls into a canal in Egypt, 29
children dead others missing, riots in Napa, Calif and Indonesia leave
at least 1 dead in each disturbance and 23 are known dead in a coal mine
explosion on Norway's Sualbard Island.
Quite a list.
All events happened between August 30 and September 21st.
There were eclipse's on the 1st and 16th of September.
The ancients always associated dramatic events with Eclipses.

Besides celebrating of the beginning of the Age of Aquarius; We are
adding a discussion of the Princess Diana's Chart, the chart of the
accident and it's other victims to the program.

Please remember the $99 convention rate increases $10 on the 1st of
November and an additional $10 on both the 1st of December.

http://www.the-ultimate.com/space/moowob.htm
http://www.the-ultimate.com/space/festival.htm

Thanks
Naomi Bennett and Jim D'Amato

Thread: New update astrological mailinglists
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: 06 Oct 97 20:35:45 +0200

Please feel free to copy and publish this information!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now free of charge available via email:

USENET NEWSGROUPS
=================

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---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread: Atomic Clock Time
From: Manon Richard <carmen@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:45:27 +-200

The programs I know let you log on to a "time server" in your time zone. The program sets your computer clock accordingly. You can set the program to do this any time you go on the internet to collect your mail, browse or whatever.

Manon
carmen@dds.nl


<Does the program adjust for time zones?
<Miriam

At 11:04 AM 28/09/97 -0500, Paula & John wrote:
>There's another neat little piece of shareware called Atom Time that does
>the same thing; you can find it at:
>
>http://www.wavefront.com/~badelsman/Software
>
<big snip>

Thread: Opinion Sought on Chart
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:48:20 -0700

Pat wrote as follows:


>Hello, Sandra,
>
>did you ask the original question because, if so, you are then the 1st, even
>though the astrologer, and not the seventh so perhaps this would help in
>interpreting the chart yourself ....
>
>Jonathan,
>
>the Moon combust and approaching Sun would not be good, would it? Whereas
>combust and leaving Sun would at least indicate emerging from a difficult
>situation.

I agree, but it's still combust and Lilly doesn't give us an exemption on
those grounds.

Wouldn't you - and me and all of us here - be 11th to Sandra and
>not 7th - as we are "acquaintances". She asked the question of the Cosmos
>herself didn't she, unless you set the question for the time she asked it on
>the List....?

This is a good poin, I think, and one to which we might all give some
consideration. I've been thinking about it in the last couple of days since
Sandra's question as it isn't the first time we've had the situation.

The seventh house denoting the astrologer was used in the conventional
querent/artist situation which has existed since the year dot. My approach
is to take the old rules and apply them to the present day situation as far
as possible. The list is, I suppose, rather akin to a conference and
certainly doesn't replicate the querent/artist scenario.

This is emphasised by the fact that we are reading a chart which has already
been cast rather than erecting one for the time we understand the question
(otherwise we would all be working off different charts) so perhaps the
traditional seventh house strictures don't apply to the list situation.

But if we are not in the seventh house are we, as you suggest, in the
eleventh? If this is the case, and the eleventh seems as good as anywhere,
then we should examine the eleventh accordingly and not judge where the cusp
or ruler is afflicted as we would normally do with the seventh house.

What do others think?

There's an important point to be resolved here.
>
>As we are all astrologers together on this one, on a private e-mail list I
>don't think - least, I hope not, anyway, - that SaturnR in Aries in the 10th
>of the chart should be something to fear....

I take your point but even if we do choose to judge because we are protected
by the brotherhood of the lilly list I think it is always worth noting the
consideration lest we come a cropper in "real life."

I look forward to hearing furthe responses on this one.

All the best,
Jonathon

>
>Kind regards,
>
>
>Pat.
>
>>>Dear Sandra,
>>
>>I've assumed a location as per your previous questions which seems to fit
>>the chart data you have given (80w31, 43w28).
>>
>>With Cancer rising this places Capricorn on the seventh which represents the
>>astrologer.
>>
>>The Moon as your main signifcator is combust (within 8 1/2 degrees of the
>>sun), a condition which means "neither question propounded will take, or the
>>querent be regulated" - p. 123 Christian Astrology.
>>
>>I take this as meaning that you are not governed by whatever the chart says
>>but that it's a situation over which you still have freewill rather than one
>>where matters have proceeded so far that you can't do much about it.
>>
>>Lilly cautions that if the seventh house is afflicted and the matter does
>>not concern the seventh house (a job offer is a tenth house matter) then the
>>astrologer is unlikely to give a good judgement (p. 122).
>>
>>This is emphasised by the Lord of the seventh being afflicted both by being
>>its fall (Saturn in Aries) and retrograde.
>>
>>Just to finish matters off, Saturn in the tenth and peregrine suggests that
>>the astrologer will get no credit even if he/she offers the right answer.
>>
>>So, if you don't mind, I think I'll pass on this one.
>>
>>Hope it all works out - maybe there's another question to come on the
>>subject if circumstances change.
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>Jonathon
>>
>>
>>To Lilly's List Readers:
>>>
>>>I would like to have your opinion to answer this question, that I have
>>asked using my computer program on October 2, 1997 at 12:22 a.m. EST DST
>>using Tropical Placidus. "Should I leave substitute teaching?"
>>>
>>>I have 17Cancer28 ascending with Moon in the 4th house at 14Libra19
>>Direct. The part of fortune is at 22Cancer 46.
>>>
>>>The tenth house has 25 Pisces33 on it's cusp.
>>>Saturn is in the tenth at 27Pisces19 Retrograde.
>>>Neptune is at 27 Cap 11 in the 7th house Retrograde.
>>>Old ruler Jupiter is in the 8th house 12Aquarius17 Retrograde
>>>
>>>The Moon is Trine Jupiter within 2 Degrees
>>>The Moon is Opposed Saturn within 3 degrees.
>>>
>>> I think the answer is yes. What do you think? If you have an idea of
>>where I should go (hopefully not to hell), I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>>From,
>>>Sandra
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Visit the Tree of Life website at:
>>http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife
>>
>>
>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Opinion Sought on Chart
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:48:37 -0700

>To Johnathon:
>
>I am sorry, I didn't mean to put you to that much work,
>then not give you credit. I have noticed, when I try to do my own
questions many seem to have Saturn in the 7th, that's why I thought maybe I
would ask the list.
>
>Sorry,
>Sandra
>
Sandra,

No apology necessary, it's a pleasure to study Lilly even if it means we
don't get to judge the chart.

It's interesting that you get Saturn in the seventh so often - do you have
strong Cancer or Leo in your natal chart? The Ascendant often gives a
connection to the natal.

All the best,
Jonathon
>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Job interview
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:54:06 +0100

Amen to this one, Jon

I like your style! Don't you, Sue!

Regards,

Pat.

>Think of it as being a ghastly job to have if you had got it!
>
>
>At 20:10 01/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Dear Pat:
>>
>>Thanks much for the correction; shows you what a newbie I am! ;-) The
>>end result is that I did not get the position. *sigh* Looking at Mars
>>(which was conjuncting my natal Saturn), there is not much action except
>>in the 6th house ruled by Aries. T Saturn is retrograde there. But that
>>comment about the Moon - ! The Moon, at 9 Leo, in the 9th house - ruled
>>by Cancer, is conjunct the MC at 12 Leo, and they oppose Uranus at 4
>>Aquarius and Jupiter at 12 Aquarius. This is compounded by a T-square of
>>the Ascendant at 7 Scorpio and Venus at 16 Scorpio. All of that certainly
>>wouldn't augur well for getting the job, would it? Again, thanks for the


Thread: Opinion Sought on Chart
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:48:38 +0100

Hello, Sandra,

did you ask the original question because, if so, you are then the 1st, even
though the astrologer, and not the seventh so perhaps this would help in
interpreting the chart yourself ....

Jonathan,

the Moon combust and approaching Sun would not be good, would it? Whereas
combust and leaving Sun would at least indicate emerging from a difficult
situation. Wouldn't you - and me and all of us here - be 11th to Sandra and
not 7th - as we are "acquaintances". She asked the question of the Cosmos
herself didn't she, unless you set the question for the time she asked it on
the List....?

As we are all astrologers together on this one, on a private e-mail list I
don't think - least, I hope not, anyway, - that SaturnR in Aries in the 10th
of the chart should be something to fear....

Kind regards,


Pat.

>>Dear Sandra,
>
>I've assumed a location as per your previous questions which seems to fit
>the chart data you have given (80w31, 43w28).
>
>With Cancer rising this places Capricorn on the seventh which represents the
>astrologer.
>
>The Moon as your main signifcator is combust (within 8 1/2 degrees of the
>sun), a condition which means "neither question propounded will take, or the
>querent be regulated" - p. 123 Christian Astrology.
>
>I take this as meaning that you are not governed by whatever the chart says
>but that it's a situation over which you still have freewill rather than one
>where matters have proceeded so far that you can't do much about it.
>
>Lilly cautions that if the seventh house is afflicted and the matter does
>not concern the seventh house (a job offer is a tenth house matter) then the
>astrologer is unlikely to give a good judgement (p. 122).
>
>This is emphasised by the Lord of the seventh being afflicted both by being
>its fall (Saturn in Aries) and retrograde.
>
>Just to finish matters off, Saturn in the tenth and peregrine suggests that
>the astrologer will get no credit even if he/she offers the right answer.
>
>So, if you don't mind, I think I'll pass on this one.
>
>Hope it all works out - maybe there's another question to come on the
>subject if circumstances change.
>
>Best Wishes,
>Jonathon
>
>
>To Lilly's List Readers:
>>
>>I would like to have your opinion to answer this question, that I have
>asked using my computer program on October 2, 1997 at 12:22 a.m. EST DST
>using Tropical Placidus. "Should I leave substitute teaching?"
>>
>>I have 17Cancer28 ascending with Moon in the 4th house at 14Libra19
>Direct. The part of fortune is at 22Cancer 46.
>>
>>The tenth house has 25 Pisces33 on it's cusp.
>>Saturn is in the tenth at 27Pisces19 Retrograde.
>>Neptune is at 27 Cap 11 in the 7th house Retrograde.
>>Old ruler Jupiter is in the 8th house 12Aquarius17 Retrograde
>>
>>The Moon is Trine Jupiter within 2 Degrees
>>The Moon is Opposed Saturn within 3 degrees.
>>
>> I think the answer is yes. What do you think? If you have an idea of
>where I should go (hopefully not to hell), I would appreciate it.
>>
>>From,
>>Sandra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Visit the Tree of Life website at:
>http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife
>
>


Thread: Fear
From: Kiearieanna <portent@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 19:10:08 -0700

>>Dear members of the Lilly group, I have a dear friend who is in
>>constant fear these days, about dying, or the dread of a disease
>>that she might have. I have told her to put her fears at rest by
>>going to a Doctor, she tells me she has and will not confide in me
>>further about this, except that she continues to worry about this
>>one haunting query all the time, I feel she is in fear of life
>>itself, or wishes to die. Seeing how her exact Nadar degree
>>rises on this chart, and on simular one's that hint at this
>>fear, I was wondering if there is any validity to her fears?
>>She says she has had different tests taken that find nothing wrong
>>with her,at least she says this. I am hoping I can get some feedback
>>on this one from the many wise ones of this group. She is an
>>astrologer herself and feels her judgement is too close to home
>>for accuracy. She cannot, or refuses to see the light? Thanks for
>>any help on this question: She asked: Do I have anything
>>physically wrong with me, that the doctor's can't find and will
>>signify my fate, or demise...Am I dying slowly of a hidden
>>disease? She feels her destiny is under the Sun's beams, but she
>>wants to learn even more about this critical question, she assures
>>me she will not be harmed by the answer, but before I give it, I
>>would like to know more if I can. Thanks, portent@teleport.com
>>Time:11:33am/pdt; Oct 3, l997; N45'31;W123'01.She has given me
>>permission to put this before you. I know Hermes is combust the sun
>>at this time, but maybe one of you might venture out for this one?

Thread: Job interview
From: jon <jonn@dircon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 18:53:21

Think of it as being a ghastly job to have if you had got it!


At 20:10 01/10/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Pat:
>
>Thanks much for the correction; shows you what a newbie I am! ;-) The
>end result is that I did not get the position. *sigh* Looking at Mars
>(which was conjuncting my natal Saturn), there is not much action except
>in the 6th house ruled by Aries. T Saturn is retrograde there. But that
>comment about the Moon - ! The Moon, at 9 Leo, in the 9th house - ruled
>by Cancer, is conjunct the MC at 12 Leo, and they oppose Uranus at 4
>Aquarius and Jupiter at 12 Aquarius. This is compounded by a T-square of
>the Ascendant at 7 Scorpio and Venus at 16 Scorpio. All of that certainly
>wouldn't augur well for getting the job, would it? Again, thanks for the
>pointer.
>
>
>Sue
>
>Sue Fensalir
>Fensalir Astrology
>s.fensalir@juno.com
>
>
>
>On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:45:08 +0100 harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)
>writes:
>>Dear Sue,
>>
>>In traditional astrology (a la Lilly) the outer planets are not given
>>rulerships of the houses so your Ascendant Lord would be Mars and you
>>would
>>need to look at that in relation to your 10th ruler, also the Moon as
>>your
>>co-ruler in the matter.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Pat.
>>
>>>Hi, all:
>>>
>>>I had a job interview this morning, and what makes it rather
>>interesting
>>>is that it took place on my birthday, less than a half-hour after my
>>>birth time. So the Sun is in the same position in the horary chart
>>and
>>>my natal chart; the Ascendant is the same, albeit with five degrees'
>>>difference. In any case, what happens when the Lord of the Ascendant
>>-
>>>Pluto - is in the First House?
>>>
>>>Venus follows at 16 Scorpio, Mars at 28 Scorpio and Pluto at 3
>>>Sagittarius; all are in the 1st house. The sixth contains Saturn at
>>17
>>>Aries retrograde, quincunx Venus, and Venus/Ascendant form squares to
>>>Uranus, Jupiter, Moon and MC. Pluto is nicely sextile the Sun.
>>>
>>>Interview: 9:30 a.m. PDT, Costa Mesa California (33N38 117W55); it
>>>concluded at 10:05 a.m.
>>>
>>>(My natal data is 9-26-56, 9:06 a.m. PDT, Burbank California - use
>>Los
>>>Angeles coordinates)
>>>
>>>Thank you very much!
>>>
>>>Sue
>>>
>>>Sue Fensalir
>>>Fensalir Astrology
>>>s.fensalir@juno.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Jon


Thread: Opinion Sought on Chart
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:39:53 -0700

>Dear Sandra,

I've assumed a location as per your previous questions which seems to fit
the chart data you have given (80w31, 43w28).

With Cancer rising this places Capricorn on the seventh which represents the
astrologer.

The Moon as your main signifcator is combust (within 8 1/2 degrees of the
sun), a condition which means "neither question propounded will take, or the
querent be regulated" - p. 123 Christian Astrology.

I take this as meaning that you are not governed by whatever the chart says
but that it's a situation over which you still have freewill rather than one
where matters have proceeded so far that you can't do much about it.

Lilly cautions that if the seventh house is afflicted and the matter does
not concern the seventh house (a job offer is a tenth house matter) then the
astrologer is unlikely to give a good judgement (p. 122).

This is emphasised by the Lord of the seventh being afflicted both by being
its fall (Saturn in Aries) and retrograde.

Just to finish matters off, Saturn in the tenth and peregrine suggests that
the astrologer will get no credit even if he/she offers the right answer.

So, if you don't mind, I think I'll pass on this one.

Hope it all works out - maybe there's another question to come on the
subject if circumstances change.

Best Wishes,
Jonathon


To Lilly's List Readers:
>
>I would like to have your opinion to answer this question, that I have
asked using my computer program on October 2, 1997 at 12:22 a.m. EST DST
using Tropical Placidus. "Should I leave substitute teaching?"
>
>I have 17Cancer28 ascending with Moon in the 4th house at 14Libra19
Direct. The part of fortune is at 22Cancer 46.
>
>The tenth house has 25 Pisces33 on it's cusp.
>Saturn is in the tenth at 27Pisces19 Retrograde.
>Neptune is at 27 Cap 11 in the 7th house Retrograde.
>Old ruler Jupiter is in the 8th house 12Aquarius17 Retrograde
>
>The Moon is Trine Jupiter within 2 Degrees
>The Moon is Opposed Saturn within 3 degrees.
>
> I think the answer is yes. What do you think? If you have an idea of
where I should go (hopefully not to hell), I would appreciate it.
>
>From,
>Sandra
>
>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Opinion Sought on Chart
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:17:57 -0400

At 07:21 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>To Lilly's List Readers:
>
>I would like to have your opinion to answer this question, that I have
asked using my computer program on October 2, 1997 at 12:22 a.m. EST DST
using Tropical Placidus. "Should I leave substitute teaching?"
>
>I have 17Cancer28 ascending with Moon in the 4th house at 14Libra19
Direct. The part of fortune is at 22Cancer 46.
>
>The tenth house has 25 Pisces33 on it's cusp.
>Saturn is in the tenth at 27Pisces19 Retrograde.
>Neptune is at 27 Cap 11 in the 7th house Retrograde.
>Old ruler Jupiter is in the 8th house 12Aquarius17 Retrograde
>
>The Moon is Trine Jupiter within 2 Degrees
>The Moon is Opposed Saturn within 3 degrees.
>
> I think the answer is yes. What do you think? If you have an idea of
where I should go (hopefully not to hell), I would appreciate it.
>
>From,
>Sandra

Dear Sandra,

Firstly, the chart isn't radical. Seventh ruled from 10th (angle) by Saturn
retro in fall opposed to Moon. Uranus and Neptune both retro (consider them
malefic) are in the 7th. Mercury is in the 4th, rules the EOM 4th and
self-undoing 12th, and is VOC destroying the question.

Secondly, since the chart isn't radical, let us proceed to read it anyway.
The problem is one of self-interest. Some new rules have been imposed upon
your professional conduct which you consider at the least onerous, at the
most unethical. And so, after quite a few years doing what you're doing,
and doing it well, you are faced with continuing what you love doing under
unacceptable conditions, or chucking it for what you don't know. Regardless
of any other considerations, you must do what is best for you.

Thirdly, you are correct in thinking that you are at a turning point
professionally. As for chucking your present job, wait until Tuesday (7
October 1997) before making a final decision. If you decide to leave your
current position, best areas to consider are independent tutoring and
educational consultant.

Fourthly, you will have an opportunity to confront this problem and the
people concerned with it on Monday (6 October 1997). Above all, avoid going
on the defensive or becoming emotional because the powers-that-be will
definitely try to confuse you. Maintain your professional bearing and
remain firm in your convictions.

Warm Regards,

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Opinion Sought on Chart
From: Sandra Bartman <sandee@golden.net> (by way of Despina Gianakopoulou <despinag@hol.gr>) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:46:37 -0200 (GMT)

To Lilly's List Readers:

I would like to have your opinion to answer this question, that I have asked
using my computer program on October 2, 1997 at 12:22 a.m. EST DST using
Tropical Placidus. "Should I leave substitute teaching?"

I have 17Cancer28 ascending with Moon in the 4th house at 14Libra19
Direct. The part of fortune is at 22Cancer 46.

The tenth house has 25 Pisces33 on it's cusp.
Saturn is in the tenth at 27Pisces19 Retrograde.
Neptune is at 27 Cap 11 in the 7th house Retrograde.
Old ruler Jupiter is in the 8th house 12Aquarius17 Retrograde

The Moon is Trine Jupiter within 2 Degrees
The Moon is Opposed Saturn within 3 degrees.

I think the answer is yes. What do you think? If you have an idea of
where I should go (hopefully not to hell), I would appreciate it.

From,
Sandra

================================================================================
HI, Sandra,
With regard to the chart you have sent ,although you have not submitted
the coordinates I tried to check the chart you sent and you give as Asc
17.28 Cancer. So, the querent s ruler is Moon and the astrologer s ruler is
Saturn,and as Lilly says in C.A. page 123 :Saturn ruler of the 7th corrups the
judjment of the astrologer. Another point that Lilly mentions in page 213-214

is the movement of the Moon. If the Moon leaves a benefic planet and
applies to a malefic planet, stay where you are.In your chart the Moon
is separating from Jupiter and is applying to Saturn. And according to Lilly
dont do anything for a short perid of time. Another point that Lilly mentions
is that horary charts should be done in Regiomontanus houses.
Despina.



Thread: Atomic Clock Time
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:33:42

Does the program adjust for time zones?
Miriam

At 11:04 AM 28/09/97 -0500, Paula & John wrote:
>There's another neat little piece of shareware called Atom Time that does
>the same thing; you can find it at:
>
>http://www.wavefront.com/~badelsman/Software
>
>It's very small, doesn't mess with system files, and is easy to use.
>What's nice about this, too, is that you don't have to visit a website to
>calibrate your clock. Just get on the Internet, click a button, and Atom
>Time gets the correct time and resets your clock.
>
>John
>
>At 09:31 PM 9/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>I found the following page for setting the computer clock to the atomic
clock
>>for excellent accuracy. You just click on the icon that says atomic clock.
>> Go to:
>>
>>http://morpheus.hartford.edu/cs/student/kaloisi/utils/clock/
>>
>>Tony
>>
>
>
>=============================================
>"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the
>argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
>
>William Pitt
>-----------------
>PGP Public key available upon request
>=============================================
>
>
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE - Astrology Newsletter - GEMINI
TAPES Astrology Lectures on Tape - ASTROLOGERS RESOURCE DIRECTORY -
Astrological Networking.

Thread: Opinion Sought on Chart
From: Sandra Bartman <sandee@golden.net> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:21:50 -0400 (EDT)

To Lilly's List Readers:

I would like to have your opinion to answer this question, that I have asked using my computer program on October 2, 1997 at 12:22 a.m. EST DST using Tropical Placidus. "Should I leave substitute teaching?"

I have 17Cancer28 ascending with Moon in the 4th house at 14Libra19 Direct. The part of fortune is at 22Cancer 46.

The tenth house has 25 Pisces33 on it's cusp.
Saturn is in the tenth at 27Pisces19 Retrograde.
Neptune is at 27 Cap 11 in the 7th house Retrograde.
Old ruler Jupiter is in the 8th house 12Aquarius17 Retrograde

The Moon is Trine Jupiter within 2 Degrees
The Moon is Opposed Saturn within 3 degrees.

I think the answer is yes. What do you think? If you have an idea of where I should go (hopefully not to hell), I would appreciate it.

From,
Sandra