Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 03:33:21 +0000

At 02:28 AM 9/1/97 +0000, TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:
>
><< Her chart data is as follows: 1 July 1961 at 7.45pm, Sandringham, England
> (52N50, 0E30) (Source: Buckingham Palace). >>
>
>The news report I heard placed the accident at 35 minutes past midnight,
>Paris time.

However, there are reports that the first call to the ploice came at 00:27 am.

Julienne


Thread: Letters
From: Agnes Moscrip <anyes@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:10:43 -0400

Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
daylight savings time. I wonder if anyone knows Ms Thornton, the
astrologer in question, so we may get confirmation one way or the other?
I can't remember her first name...she sounded British in any case.

I am glad to say she was very professional, and did not divulge any
confidential, juicy information. Just that she had read her chart
several times at Diana's request.

Confirmation of the time would be nice...

Anyes

Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:47:28 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:

<< Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident? >>

A quick look at the natal chart and the time of the accident (35 min past
midnight) shows the following very close aspects:

progressed Mars octile (45) natal Neptune
Prog. ASC trioctile (135) natal Pluto
Prog. Uranus opposed to natal Moon (ruler of the 8th of death)
Transiting Pluto quincunx (150) natal Mercury
Transiting Sun octile natal MC
Transiting Uranus quincunx natal Pluto
Transiting Neptune conjunct natal Saturn.

In addition, the solar eclipse of 9/1/97 occurs in her 8th house of death.

Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:28:08 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:

<< Her chart data is as follows: 1 July 1961 at 7.45pm, Sandringham, England
(52N50, 0E30) (Source: Buckingham Palace). >>

The news report I heard placed the accident at 35 minutes past midnight,
Paris time.

Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: LeBelier@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:57:44 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-31 08:15:51 EDT, nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp writes:

<< Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident? >>

12: 35 am.

Lenore

Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: neptunenan@kellnet.com (Nancy Perrott) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:39:57 -0400


Hello Sue,
I apologize to you and the list I was half asleep when
I posted the original. This was a repost from another
list and another person. I failed to state that.
But thank you, I did not realize that you could
use progressions in this way.

red all over
Nancy Perrott

----------
> From: Sue Jorgenson <s.fensalir@juno.com>

> >The late Princess Diana, Princess of Wales
> >July 1 1961
> >7:45 pm
> >bst -1:00
> >Sandringham, UK
> >00E30 52n50
> >SolarMaps gives Mercury desc. close to Paris, no parans.
>
> I have SolarMaps also. Please keep in mind that lines running through
> locations _also_ mean natives/events of that country will have an impact
> on the person. For example, the last several US Presidents have had to
> deal with Pluto lines. Kennedy's Pluto line ran through Dallas. Bush's
> Pluto line runs through Libya and he had to deal with Khaddafi. Clinton,
> I think, has it running through the former Yugoslavia. Keeping that in
> mind, I checked North Africa and France for both Diana's natal AND
> progressed charts. Not pretty.
>
> Natal: Mercury desc. close to Paris, as you indicate. Jupiter Ascending
> and Venus IC through Egypt, close to Cairo.
>
> Progressed (this rather hurts): Jupiter Descending very close to Paris,
> Pluto Descending, Mars Descending, Moon IC through Egypt, and the
> Pluto/Mars lines intersect very, very close to Cairo.
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Sue
>
> Sue Fensalir
> Fensalir Astrology
> s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread: The Paris Car Crash
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:38:16 -0700


Some preliminary thoughts on today's momentous events.

As ever, on such occasions, the chart offers an extraordinary reflection of
heavenly events brought to earth.

The time of the crash was given in most news bulletins as "just after
midnight," French time. I have therefore cast a preliminary chart for 12.05
a.m. (-2) 31 August 1997, 48N52, 02E20. Asc 12 Gemini.

Although mother of a future heir to the throne, the Princess is not a
member of the British Royal Family.

She is therefore signified by the Ascendant, Gemini, and its ruler, Mercury,
as well as the Moon .

The Gemini Ascendant is a bicorporeal sign and shows that more than one
person is involved in the incident. The Princess and her friend, Dodi
Al-Fayed, were both killed as was the driver. Her bodyguard was seriously
injured.

The princess's relationship with Al-Fayed was a romantic one and he may
therefore be said to be signified by the seventh house, Sagittarius on the
cusp and Jupiter, its ruler.

Mercury is in Virgo, the sign of its rulership and exaltation showing the
Princess to be a noble personage but Mercury is also combust, slow in motion
and retrograde. Its position in the fifth house shows the princess and her
companion to be returning from an evening of pleasure - they had had dinner
at the Paris Ritz which was owned by the Al Fayed family.

Combust and retrograde, Mercury applies to a conjunction with the sun -
ruler of the fourth house of the grave and dispositor of the Moon, also
signifying the Princess. The Moon is already situated in the fourth house
and just separating from an opposition to Jupiter, Al-Fayed, showing the
painful ending of their earthly relationship.

Moon and Jupiter are squared by a powerful Mars in the sixth of illness,
indicating the violent accident which befalls them and that her servants
(sixth house) were also involved.

(Princess Diana also has Mars in the eighth in her natal chart which often
indicates a violent death).

The Moon is aptly placed in the royal sign of Leo which rules the heart -
the princess eventually succumbed to a heart attack after suffering
extensive internal injuries as well as a broken arm (Gemini) and cuts to the
thigh (Sagittarius rises in the natal chart).

The Moon now applies to a sextile (square in signs of long ascension) with
Venus, ruler of Libra on the cusp of the sixth of illness and Taurus,
intercepted in the twelfth - her next journey is to the hospital where she
dies at 4 a.m.

Note the antiscion of Saturn, ruler of the eighth and natural ruler of
death, falling at 10o20' Virgo, just one and a half degrees away from
Mercury, the Princess. Once the Moon has completed its sextile with Venus it
trines Saturn by mutual application.

May they who mourn be comforted at this time.
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:44:47

At 00:06 27/8/1997 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-Princess-Diana-Crash.html
>[banner] [VISA . It's everywhere you want to be]
>[toolbar]
>
> August 30, 1997
>
> Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed

She died at 4am BST Paris 31 Aug 1997 from injuries sustained in the crash.

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread: Lady Di
From: "Carla M. Vorsatz" <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 08:49:26 -0700

I have two different birth times for Lady Di. Does anybody know which is
the right one?
July, 01 - 1961
7.45 pm or 2.15 pm
Sandringham - England
52N50 00E30
Thanks.


Thread: Birth data Diana
From: "P. Langeveld" <Langeveld.P@net.HCC.nl> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:08:14 +0200

GKenni7777@aol.com asked for birth data Diana
According to the data from Solar Fire 4 they
are :01/07/1961 - 19:45 -1:00 Sandringham
52N50 - 000E30 AC 18.24 Sag
the progression at the moment of the accident
is clear.
Bad news !
Paul


Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:27:03 -0700

>WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?
>
>WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA
>
>_______________________
>In a message dated 97-08-30 06:43:20 EDT, you write:
><< From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)
> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com >>
>
Princess Diana - 1 July 1961, 6.45 p.m. GMT, 52N51, 00E30, Asc, 18 Sag.

Queen Elizabeth II - 21 April 1926, 1.40 a.m. GMT, 51N32, 00W06, Asc 21 Cap

Prince Charles - 14 November 1948 9.14 p.m. 52N31, OOW06, Asc 5 Leo,

Prince William - 21 June 1982, 8.03 p.m. GMT, 51N32, 00W12, Asc 27 Sag

Prince Harry - 15 Sept 1984, 3.20 p.m. GMT, 51N32, 00W12, Asc, 11 Cap,

Regards,
Jonathon
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:18:21 +0900 (JST)

For those who haven't heard, Diana, former Princess of Wales, was killed in
a car crash in Paris with her lover Dodi Al Fayed as they tried to evade the
media.

Her chart data is as follows: 1 July 1961 at 7.45pm, Sandringham, England
(52N50, 0E30) (Source: Buckingham Palace).

Looking at the transits, tPluto is sq nMars, tUranus conj nJupiter, tNeptune
conj nSaturn, tMars conj n Neptune and tUranus/Jupiter sq n Neptune.

Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident?

Best,

Neil


Thread: RE:Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: neptunenan@kellnet.com (Nancy Perrott) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 05:58:25 -0400


With the shocking news of the death of Princess Diana, I sadly write you
with the birth data of members of the immediate family. Source: Royal
database from JigSaw software. The charts clearly reflect this impacting
event.

The late Princess Diana, Princess of Wales
July 1 1961
7:45 pm
bst -1:00
Sandringham, UK
00E30 52n50
SolarMaps gives Mercury desc. close to Paris, no parans.

Prince Charles
Nov. 14, 1948
9:14 pm
gmt 0 hrs
London, Eng. 13:16 Aries mc

Prince William
June 21, 1982
9:03 pm
bst -1:00
London
2:28 Scorpio mc

Prince Harry
Sept. 15, 1984
gmt 0 hrs
London, Eng
0W10 51n31
23:26 Pisces mc


----------
> From: GKenni7777@aol.com


> WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?
>
> WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA


Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: Keli Manson Sinclair <sinman@es.co.nz> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:09:27 +1200

>Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:08:31 +1200
>To: GKenni7777@aol.com
>From: Keli Manson Sinclair <sinman@es.co.nz>
>Subject: RE:Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
>In-Reply-To: <970831024509_1294006403@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>
>I've got 1 July 1961 7:45pm GMD Sandringham 52N50 000E30 for her birthdate
>An early breaking news report on the Net put the accident at 12:35 am in
Paris and her death was recorded at 4:00 am Paris time.
>Terribly sad and shocking.
>
>Regards, Keli
>
>
>At 02:45 AM 8/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?
>>
>>WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA
>>
>>_______________________
>>In a message dated 97-08-30 06:43:20 EDT, you write:
>><< From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)
>> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
>> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com >>
>>
>>


Thread: Princess DI
From: Sunlite <sunlite@afn.org> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:21:02 -0400 (EDT)

Hello,

Does anyone know the birth info of Dodi Fayed? And what about the exact
time of the accident?

Any suggestions as to where to look on the net. I thought British
astrologers would be the best people to ask, but who?

Thanks,

Ellen


Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: GKenni7777@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 02:45:09 -0400 (EDT)

WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?

WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA

_______________________
In a message dated 97-08-30 06:43:20 EDT, you write:
<< From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)
Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com >>


Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:22:03 -0700

>>Julienne wrote:

>
>As I have said, Jonathan, I don't disagree with devoting the List to its
>stated purpose. Nor am I an apologist for the asteroids - I am just
>exploring them.

I don't know enough about your work to comment but thanks for setting that out.

You let me know what you find with Lilly, and I'll let you
>know what I (and others) find with the asteroids...and then we can put
>together a whole car.

Should be some hell of a machine! Yes, I agree this is the approach to take.
It seems more and more to me that astrology is something so large that many
different approaches are needed by different personality types.

All the best,
Jonathon
>

>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: House sale
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:22:05 -0700 (PDT)

>Dear Miriam,

Please confirm the ascendant for this chart is 19 Pisces.

You wrote:
>
>I have looked at the chart in the way you [Frank and myself] suggest and
this it what I find.
>
>My daughter's significator is the Moon at 0 Sag. The buyers significator is
>Saturn at 20 Aries. These will trine in 20 degrees.

But after the Moon has completed a square to Mercury (equivalent to a
sextile in southern hemisphere signs of short ascension).
If this sale goes through then I suggest it is because of Mercury's
rulership of the radical fourth.

The sale is going
>through and settlement will be IN 20 DAYS AFTER THE CHART WAS CAST. The
>ruler of Alyson's finances is the Sun and the buyers finances is again
>Saturn. They are in trine orb 31 minutes. Saturn is also on the cusp of the
>10th from the 5th - the price of the property, the price is very low.

That certainly fits.
>
>Thanks for your suggestion. This way of looking at the chart certainly told
>the story.
>
>Thanks too to Jonathan for your input. Just a question though. How can you
>say that the Moon is VOC when it is at the beginning of a sign and will go
>on to aspect other planets before going on to the next sign?

This keeps on coming up in discussion - Carol, is it possible to have an FAQ
section for this listing?

Briefly, Sue Ward in 1993 Correspondence with Maurice McCann and repeated in
the most recent edition of Horary Practitioner, argues that it is the lack
of application which makes the moon v/c. I'll see if I can dig out some text
to email you the details in full. I have used this method for some time and
found it to be effective.

Although the Moon is v/c here it is in Sagittarius so we can say that it
still performs "somewhat" to quote Lilly.

Please keep us up to date with the final outcome - I find this an
interesting chart.

All the best,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: House sale
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:22:04 -0700 (PDT)

>>
>I don't know for sure, but Jonathan may have had the same problem I did.

It's possible - I had the Moon at 0 24' Sag but used a 9.5 hour difference.
See my separate posting for further details.

(Just now, I recalculated the chart
>for a +9-hour time zone and got the correct result.) Please confirm rising
degree.
>
All the best,
Jonathon
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:07:06 -0700

The time of the accident was reported as early this morning (31 aug 1997)
"just after midnight" (a.p. wireservice, cnn, msnbc) in the southeast
section of Paris. There seems to be several hours lapse between the actual
time of the late princess' death and the announcement which came at 4:00
a.m. local time.

I hope that this is helpful to you.

Dorothy J. Kovach

     princess diana of england - natal
     01 Jul 1961
     7.45 P.M.
     0.30 EAST
     52.30 NORTH
     13H  25M  18S
     Regiomontanus
                 13 SCO             23 LIB             16 VIR
                     *                *                *
                                      *                PL06Vir
                        *             *             *  MA01Vir
     29 SCO                           *                NN29Leo     23 CAN
          *                *  NE08Sco *          *     UR23Leo    *
              *                       *              PF04Leo  *
                  *           *       *       *           *
                      *               *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                              *               *              SU09Can
                             *                 *             ME03Can
     18 SAG ******************                 ******************* 18 GEM
                             *                 *
                              *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                      *               *               *
                  *           *       *       *           *
              *  SA27Cpr              *              VE24Tau  *
          *    JU05Aqu     *          *          *                *
     23 CPR    MO25Aqu                *                            29 TAU
               SN29Aqu  *             *             *
                                      *
                     *                *                *
                 16 PIS             23 ARI             13 TAU


At 02:45 AM 8/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?
>
>WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA
>
>_______________________
>In a message dated 97-08-30 06:43:20 EDT, you write:
><< From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)
> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com >>
>
>
>


Thread: Musings for Today
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:36:36 -0400

At 03:58 AM 8/29/97 EDT, you wrote:
>*** Resending note of 08/29/97 02:14

>
>>Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A
Traditional
>>Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children

>>always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who

>>remains loyal to "Daddy." :)

>
>Many congrats to you and your lady, Frank!! Here's to the next 27years!!

Thank you! It just seems to get better.


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Musings for Today
From: JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:14:34 -0400 (EDT)

Hi Julienne, At 04:46 AM 8/29/97 +0000, you wrote:
>At 03:15 PM 8/28/97 +0000, Frank Ernest wrote:
>>1. What is "bubbles and squeak?"
>
>I think "bubble and squeak" is alcohol...no?

Cabbage and potatoes fried together, according to the dictionary (I had
remembered the cabbage part but couldn't remember the other part). The name
comes from the sound it makes while cooking.

-JoAnne


Thread: Musings for Today
From: Lynda Hill <lhill@peg.apc.org> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:11:30 +1000

Julienne wrote:
>
> At 03:15 PM 8/28/97 +0000, Frank Ernest wrote:
> >To the wonderful and gracious members of the List and the List Owners:
>
> I think "bubble and squeak" is alcohol...no?
>
> Julienne

No, actually bubble and squeak is left overs fried in a pan - most
usually vegetables meat, but it can just be vegetables. Sort of like
last night's dinner rehashed.

Love from DownUnder
Lynda


Thread: Musings for Today
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:46:11 +0000

At 03:15 PM 8/28/97 +0000, Frank Ernest wrote:
>To the wonderful and gracious members of the List and the List Owners:
>
>This has nothing to do with astrology or William Lilly. It is a day when
>Saturn has stopped bashing me and allowed some trans-Saturnian insanity to
>creep into my life.
>May God preserve us!
>
>Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A Traditional
>Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children
>always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who
>remains loyal to "Daddy." :)
>
>Questions for Those Who Know These Things:
>
>1. What is "bubbles and squeak?"
>
>2. What is "toad in the hole?"
>
>Are these food? If they are, I will eat them. :)

"Toad in the hole" is sausage in batter - baked. I make it deliciously. :)
It's best with English or Australian sausage.

I think "bubble and squeak" is alcohol...no?

Julienne


Thread: Musings for Today
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:58:08 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/29/97 02:14

>Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A Traditional
>Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children
>always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who
>remains loyal to "Daddy." :)

Many congrats to you and your lady, Frank!! Here's to the next 27years!!

Hi Julienne

>I think "bubble and squeak" is alcohol...no?

Er, no ..... bubble and squeak is a mixture of left over veggies and potatoes,
shaped into small rounds and then fried,
very often cooked on a Monday to use up the remains of the traditional
Sunday roast. However, nowadays it tends to have become a dish in its own
right and is usually cabbage and mashed potatoe mixed together and then shallow
fried. I think there are even frozen food versions of this traditional
'use up the scraps' meal.

Regards

Angela

---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME


Thread: Musings for Today
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:52:16 +0900 (JST)

Hi Frank,

>Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A Traditional
>Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children
>always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who
>remains loyal to "Daddy." :)

Congratulations. (BTW, you were married a few days before my birth.)

>Questions for Those Who Know These Things:
>
>1. What is "bubbles and squeak?"
>
>2. What is "toad in the hole?"
>
>Are these food? If they are, I will eat them. :)

Bubble (not bubbles) and squeak is a dish of leftover boiled cabbage,
potatoes and sometimes cooked meat fried together. So-called because of the
sound made when cooking it.

Toad-in-the-Hole is a dish of sausages baked in batter. Not sure why it is
called that.

But if you really want some good food, try haggis (Scottish dish made from
sheeps or calves offal, oatmeal, suet and seasonings boiled in a skin made
from the animals stomach)! Best served with neeps (turnips) and tatties
(potatoes).

Best,

Neil



Thread: Musings for Today
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:15:10 -0400

To the wonderful and gracious members of the List and the List Owners:

This has nothing to do with astrology or William Lilly. It is a day when
Saturn has stopped bashing me and allowed some trans-Saturnian insanity to
creep into my life.
May God preserve us!

Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A Traditional
Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children
always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who
remains loyal to "Daddy." :)

Questions for Those Who Know These Things:

1. What is "bubbles and squeak?"

2. What is "toad in the hole?"

Are these food? If they are, I will eat them. :)

To Miriam Leister:

Finally figured out what went wrong with my chart calcs. I forgot to
compensate for Daylight Savings Time. Saturn strikes again. You are
guiltless :), while I, well, am embarrassed. :(

To Whom It May Concern (you know who you are):

I am not a "wicked person" :(, although She Who Must Be Obeyed agreed with
you for 27 years of different reasons. :)

And, as Saturn returns, allow me to end somewhat seriously. I have posted a
chart analysis for the resumption of the Belfast talks on my web site for
those interested. I am working a chart for the Japanese surrender at the
end of World War II. Will post it on my web site when it is done. If there
was ever a chart that illustrates the workings of the trans-Saturnian
planets, this one is it!

Thank you all for indulging me for a few moments of trans-Saturnian whimsy.

Warm Regards To All,


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Moon and It's Aspects
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:27:21 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-27 20:26:24 EDT, you write:

<< I am having trouble integrating the Moon into my horary interpretations.
I
know that it represents the querent along with the Ascendant. I also am
unsure of knowing what it's first and last aspects are in reading the chart.
Any spelled out instuctions would be helpful.
>>

The Moon co-rules the querent, but usually the ruler of the Ascendant has
primary significance in that regard. The Moon also shows the general
conditions surrounding the querent and reflects the timing of events related
to the question. The aspects of the Moon have a general significance related
to the question. However, if Cancer rules the cusp of the querent or the
quesited, then the Moon becomes a primary significator and must be studied
more carefully for specific indications regarding the questions.

Hope this helps.

Tony

Thread: Diurnal vs.Nocturnal
From: KiearieAnna <portent@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:59:30 -0700

Dear Sue,
>>Diurnal meaning above the horizon or as in a clockwise direction -
>>>>>from 6am.to 6pm,(east to west) the day hours as in positioning in
>>the wheel,how one might place the sun as designator of time in the
>>>>>chart -(other planets may occupy space there also)- from the 12th
>>house;11th house;10th house;9th house etc.,until the 7th house is
>>>>>reached. Then beginning with the occupation of the 6h house
>>towards the Asc.; the night hours or Nocturnal, from 6pm-until
>>>>>6am,(west to east) still going clockwise if you will; 6th house;
>>5th house 4th house and so on up to and encompassing all of the 1st
>>>>>house. These houses are below the horizon, and may be considered
>>negative in that they tend to the development of what ever influence
>>>>>is found in them in secrecy. They do not come to recognition as
>>readily as do houses above the horizon which may be considered
>>>>>>postive:(receiving the Sun's rays; as in Nocturnal being
>>negative ruling the night hours and under the Moons beams;
>>>>>>i.e.Conscious v.s.Subconscious) You might also think of them in
>>relationship as to waxing or waning by the strength of their powers.
>>>>>The houses above the horizon tend to the ready influences found
>>in their governship in such a way that they gain recognition. Hope
>>>>>this is qualifying enough for you Sue.......In Learning...... Portent@teleport.com


Thread: Venus and the elements
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix10.ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:42:16 +0000

DENIS LABOURE wrote -

> Is Venus wet and HOT (Ptolemy, Morinus) or wet and COLD (Al-Biruni,
> Lilly, Lulle, Rantzau) ?

Hi Denis!

The problem is larger than that, because Morinus also declared
Jupiter to be moderately hot and DRY, just as he declared Venus to be
moderately wet and cold. (AG, p 302-303)

Furthermore, as we know, Morinus was a major reformer of technique,
among other things, proposing a new set of Triplicity rulers (pp
341-343), and rejecting the Terms (p 346).

Unfortunately, horary is not a good method to ascertain the answer,
because a delineation seldom truns on the qualities. The obvious
place to look is medical astrology. Even there, it's clear that by
the Medieval period, the qualities of the sign a planet was
emphasized over the qualities of the planet itself: witness the
method for computing the complexion.

One possible way to sort this out is to compare the qualities and
the planet rulerships assigned to the same substance. I am working on
this, but won't have a satisfactory answer for another six months or
so.

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction

Thread: Fwd: Astrologer in Philly?
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:56:24 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-18 13:24:22 EDT, pstandaart@wesleyan.edu writes:

<< Subj: Astrologer in Philly?
Date: 97-08-18 13:24:22 EDT
From: pstandaart@wesleyan.edu (Peter Standaart)
To: AirCactuss@aol.com (Astrological Society of Connecticut),
Alphee1@aol.com, alphee@ix.netcom.com, AstSocOfCT@aol.com,
Carolyn_Egan@Brown.edu, CCumming@WorldNet.ATT.net (Catherine Cumming),
Cfrese5770@aol.com, clayforms@aol.com, david.drinnan@gdc.com,
Deb0824@aol.com, Glostar@aol.com, Hofstead@earthlink.net,
KataHag@WorldNet.ATT.net (Kathy Simpson), kt@earthling.net (Kate Warfel),
Laura.magnussen@snet.net (Laura Magnussen), Mambroz@aol.com,
Mrla0827@aol.com, Prior@cyberbury.net (Kathy Prior), Scala@aol.com,
StarWlkr26@aol.com, Sun1640@aol.com, Tony_LaB@Msn.com, TonyLouis@aol.com,
unicornbk@aol.com, VBMARTIN@aol.com, XEFC78A@Prodigy.com
CC: ChezVees@aol.com (Libby Van Cleve)

Dear Friends and Family of the Astrological Society of Connecticut,

I have a close astrologer friend who would like the name of a good
counseling astrologer in Philadelphia. Her friend in Philadelphia is
seeking an astrologer, but does not have a clue about getting good
recommendations. She would like someone established, but who would be
accessible within the next few weeks, i.e. no year-long waiting list, etc.

If you know of anyone, or have any connections we could follow up
on, please, forward them to me at the above e-mail address.

Thank you very much,

Peter Standaart
Board Member of the ASC
>>


---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: pstandaart@wesleyan.edu (Peter Standaart)
To: AirCactuss@aol.com (Astrological Society of Connecticut),
Alphee1@aol.com, alphee@ix.netcom.com, AstSocOfCT@aol.com,
Carolyn_Egan@Brown.edu, CCumming@WorldNet.ATT.net (Catherine Cumming),
Cfrese5770@aol.com, clayforms@aol.com, david.drinnan@gdc.com,
Deb0824@aol.com, Glostar@aol.com, Hofstead@earthlink.net,
KataHag@WorldNet.ATT.net (Kathy Simpson), kt@earthling.net (Kate Warfel),
Laura.magnussen@snet.net (Laura Magnussen), Mambroz@aol.com,
Mrla0827@aol.com, Prior@cyberbury.net (Kathy Prior), Scala@aol.com,
StarWlkr26@aol.com, Sun1640@aol.com, Tony_LaB@Msn.com, TonyLouis@aol.com,
unicornbk@aol.com, VBMARTIN@aol.com, XEFC78A@Prodigy.com
CC: ChezVees@aol.com (Libby Van Cleve)
Date: 97-08-18 13:24:22 EDT

Dear Friends and Family of the Astrological Society of Connecticut,

I have a close astrologer friend who would like the name of a good
counseling astrologer in Philadelphia. Her friend in Philadelphia is
seeking an astrologer, but does not have a clue about getting good
recommendations. She would like someone established, but who would be
accessible within the next few weeks, i.e. no year-long waiting list, etc.

If you know of anyone, or have any connections we could follow up
on, please, forward them to me at the above e-mail address.

Thank you very much,

Peter Standaart
Board Member of the ASC




Thread: CA pages
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 03:21:56 EDT


Thanks very much, Carol. I will endeavour to mark my book accordingly and
hope that it all matches up.

Regards
Angela


Thread: !Unexpectedly found....Lost Designer Sheers!
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:33:36 +0000

At 01:52 PM 8/26/97 +0000, Vyri@aol.com wrote:
>>>Saluatations! (original chart has Jupiter and Uranus intercepted in 1st)
> Very unexpectedly...
>>>came across my sheers. Capricorn)

Sorry to be silly, but I saw the subject of this post, "Lost Designer
Sheers!" - and was trying to figure out what the fuss was about lost panty
hose ( or some such).

I now gather you meant "shears"? That would be a greater loss - unless
"sheers" included a lot of beautiful lingerie...:)

Julienne




Thread: Moon and It's Aspects
From: Sandra Bartman <sandee@golden.net> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:24:34 -0400 (EDT)

I am having trouble integrating the Moon into my horary interpretations. I
know that it represents the querent along with the Ascendant. I also am
unsure of knowing what it's first and last aspects are in reading the chart.
Any spelled out instuctions would be helpful.

From,
Sandra
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with
all you mind. This is the first and greatest commmandment. And the second
is like it: Love your Neighbour as Yourself. All the Law and the Phrophets
hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
>From Sandra e-mail sandee@golden.net
end


Thread: Practice Missing Child Chart
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:37:34 -0400 (EDT)

This might be a good chart to look at since the child was found. Five year
old Brynce disappeared while playing hide and seek outside with his older
brothers. He was first missed at 8:30 PM CDT on August 24, 1997 in Toledo
Iowa 92W34'36 41N59'44. Police were called in at 9:10 PM and everyone in this
small town came out to look for the boy. His hand was discovered sticking out
of a pile of clothing in the family home at 11:25 PM. A policeman made the
discovery but the article didn't say which room he was in. He'd been hiding
there and fell asleep but was fine. Bryce has had a bout with cancer and is
known in this area because of community fundraisers in his behalf. One of his
kidneys did not develop and a tumor grew in it's place.

Maggie


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:04:40 -0400

At 05:13 AM 8/26/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Hi Frank, thanks for the follow-up info, I had, literally, only just been

>thinking that I hadn't heard anything on the radio for ages about the case

>and hoping there would be some update soon, and voila! up comes your
post!!
>
>Now, I hesitate to ask this because I will doubtless show myself up as a

>complete and utter numbskull - so what's new! - but, here goes. What do

>you mean by 'diurnal chart'and it being a 'mundane technique'? I thought

>diurnal chart meant purely a daytime chart. What am I misinterpreting
here?
Hi, Angela!

Seems an imprecise term and I assumed too much. Diurnal charts are transit
charts which are erected based on the time and place of an original chart.
In this case, I erected a chart for the Manchester shooting using the date
for the capture of the alleged killer, but the time and place of the
shooting. I started trying them some time ago, but am not yet confident of
the results. Essentially, it's a day-by-day update of a base event.






Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Diurnal v.s.Nocturnal
From: s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:47:50 -0700


On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:25:25 -0700 portent@teleport.com (KiearieAnna)
writes:
>>Hello, my thoughts about Diurnal were simular...but I believe Diurnal
>v.s.
>>Nocturnal goes
>>something like this; planets above the horizon in the chart,that is
>to say
>>between the
>>cusp of the 1st and 7th. Planets reletive to the placement
>of space passing
>>during the day are occuping durinal postitions. As different from
>>nocturnal or below the horizon
>>and between the 1st and 7th Cusp. An explanation of space >occupation
>of
>>the planets. Portent
>
Hi, Portent, just need a little clarification... You mean from the cusp
of the 7th to the 1st for diurnal and from the cusp of the 1st to the 7th
for nocturnal? I got a little confused seeing "cusp of 1st and 7th"
repeated twice - and this is one Mercury retrograde that has got me
knocked for a loop!

Thanks much!

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com
>

Thread: CA pages
From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:21:03 +7

Dear Angela,
>
> Carol, as a printer and purveyor of books, have you any thoughts or
> suggestions as to how to make these pages tally? And how can the tops be out
> of sync, but not the bottoms?

When I transcribed Christian Astrology I had a first edition copy
facsimilie to work with that I got from Olivia Barclay. In the book
she had corrected the pages this way.....
page 174 became 170
page 175 became 171
page 172 became 172
page 173 became 173
page 170 became 174
page 171 became 175

The pages match perfectly at both top and bottom.
This sort of thing happened frequently, in fact I have a couple of
first editions where the numbers had been marked out and new numbers
put in only they were the wrong new numbers!
Love & Light
Carol
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall

Thread: Job question
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:38:37

Dear Listers,

I have another question for you. The question is "Will I be offered the job?
25 Aug 1997 9 27 pm ACST - 9.30 Sellicks Beach 35s18 138E25

Asc 17 51 Aries MC 19 50 Capricorn - two degrees off the Natal MC of the
querent.

The bugbear off course is that Satrun is rising - two degrees from the AC.
Generally I would say no. The books I have consulted say that A: The
question asked is not the real question. B: That no good will come of it.
C: That some misfortune will happen before it comes to fruition. However in
this case Saturn is the significator of the job - 10th house. It is close
to the AC - the querant and deposed by him - Mars in Scorpio - well placed.
With any other planet I would say the job is his.

My take is that he may be offered the job, but does not really want it or
it is not waht it seems or something else may come up.

What do you think?

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread: Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed
From: Dorothy J Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:06:25 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------233386D1C23
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-Princess-Diana-Crash.html

--------------233386D1C23
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="AP-Princess-Diana-Crash.html"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="AP-Princess-Diana-Crash.html"

[banner] [VISA . It's everywhere you want to be]
[toolbar]

August 30, 1997

Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed

--------------------------------------------------------
A.P. INDEXES: TOP STORIES | NEWS | BUSINESS | SPORTS | ENTERTAINMENT
--------------------------------------------------------

Filed at 9:22 p.m. EDT

By The Associated Press

PARIS (AP) -- Diana, Princess of Wales, was seriously
injured in a car crash early Sunday that killed her
boyfriend, Dodi Fayed, and the chauffeur, police said.

The crash happened shortly after midnight in a tunnel
along the Seine River at the Pont de l'Alma bridge,
while paparazzi followed her car, a police spokesman
said on condition of anonymity.

The high-speed pursuit ended in a crash in the tunnel
that trapped several people in a pileup, France Info
radio reported. Police cars and vans with flashing
lights filled the site outside the tunnel and
authorities blocked off the area.

Fayed, son of the billionaire Egyptian owner of London's
prestigious Harrod's department store, was killed in the
accident along with the chauffeur, the spokesman said.

The fourth person in the car, a bodyguard, was also
seriously injured in the crash, the spokesman said. He
would not say where Diana or the bodyguard were
hospitalized.

Dodi and Princess Diana's close friendship became clear
to the outside world over the past five weeks, as the
couple took a series of holidays together in the
Mediterranean.

Newspapers reported Diana first met Fayed almost 10
years ago when he and Prince Charles played polo on
opposing teams. Films he has produced or co-produced
include the 1981 Oscar-winning ``Chariots of Fire,''
``The World According to Garp,'' ``F/X'' and ``Hook.''

On Aug. 21, Princess Diana and Dodi Fayed flew to the
French Mediterranean resort of St. Tropez for their
third holiday together in five weeks.

Reportedly a multi-millionaire, Dodi Fayed had homes in
London, New York, Los Angeles and Switzerland as well as
a garage full of luxury cars. His 1994 marriage lasted
just eight months.

Fayed's father, billionaire Mohamed Al-Fayed, owns the
Hotel Ritz in Paris in addition to Harrod's. He was a
friend of Princess Diana's father, the late Lord
Spencer.

In Martha's Vineyard, Mass., the vacationing President
Clinton and first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton learned of
the accident while attending a clambake.

They expressed concern and asked aides to keep them
informed of any developments, White House spokesman Joe
Lockhart said.

Home | Sections | Contents | Search | Forums | Help

Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

The information contained in this AP Online news report
may not be republished or redistributed
without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

----------------------------------------------------------

[VISA . It's everywhere you want to be]

--------------233386D1C23--


Thread: CA pages
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:11:25 EDT


Thanks Dianna, but how do the pages you've photocopied tie up at the bottom?
When I was trying to sort it out 'by eye', I could get the tops of the pages
to concur, but then the bottoms didn't appear to follow. Example, p169 does
not appear to correctly follow on to p170 - but - p171 does appear to follow
p170!!

Carol, as a printer and purveyor of books, have you any thoughts or
suggestions as to how to make these pages tally? And how can the tops be out
of sync, but not the bottoms?

Sue, as our Lilly expert, how have you found this to sort out, or does your
book not have such inconsistencies? Or do they, in fact, make a sense that
is being missed?

Still confused
Angela


Thread: CA pages
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:19:17 -0400


--------------94F52B6466637D0BCEF89D23
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:

> Can anyone tell me if there is a fault in the facsimile printing of
> CA?
> Pages 169 to 176 appear to possibly be mixed up. At the bottom of
> each page
> appears the word which appears on the subsequent page, but on these
> pages
> it does not tally, and neither does the sense. For example, p169
> carries over
> 'tleman', but, in fact p170 begins 'in the second...'; p171 carries
> over
> 'weeks', but p172 begins 'the sign of the 12th house be humain..';
> p173
> carries over 'in', but p174 begins 'tleman'....
>
> However, swopping the pages around so that words and sense tally at
> the top of
> the page, then displaces the bottom of the page.
>
> Does anyone else have this problem or do I have a rogue copy? Failing
> which,
> can anyone explain it?
>
> Confused greatly
>
> Angela

Dear Angela (& all concerned) -

Wow! You're right! None of us noticed it before!

I think I have it figured out:

I xeroxed pp 169 to 176 and re-arranged them using the "tag" word at
bottom of each page that leads into next page; it works well if you put
them in the following order: 169, 174, 175, 172, 173, 170, 171, 176.
This may have been a problem in the original they (Regulus) were working
from; I'm told it was not in very good condition. But come to think of
it, since the page numbers are part of the "facsimile" - I'll bet the
mix-up goes all the way back to "Tho. Brudenell for John Partridge and
Humph. Blunden, in Blackfriers at the Gate going into Carter-lane, and
in Cornhil, 1647" !!

Best wishes, DKR

--------------94F52B6466637D0BCEF89D23
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Can anyone tell me if there is a fault in the facsimile
printing of CA?
<BR>Pages 169 to 176 appear to possibly be mixed up.&nbsp; At the bottom
of each page
<BR>appears the word which appears on the subsequent page, but on these
pages
<BR>it does not tally, and neither does the sense. For example, p169 carries
over
<BR>'tleman', but, in fact p170 begins 'in the second...'; p171 carries
over
<BR>'weeks', but p172 begins 'the sign of the 12th house be humain..';
p173
<BR>carries over 'in', but p174 begins 'tleman'....

<P>However, swopping the pages around so that words and sense tally at
the top of
<BR>the page, then displaces the bottom of the page.

<P>Does anyone else have this problem or do I have a rogue copy?&nbsp;
Failing which,
<BR>can anyone explain it?

<P>Confused greatly

<P>Angela</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;Dear Angela (&amp; all concerned) -

<P>Wow! You're right! None of us noticed it before!&nbsp;

<P>I think I have it figured out:

<P>I xeroxed pp 169 to 176 and re-arranged them using the "tag" word at
bottom of each page that leads into next page; it works well if you put
them in the following order: 169, 174, 175, 172, 173, 170, 171, 176.&nbsp;
This may have been a problem in the original they (Regulus) were working
from; I'm told it was not in very good condition.&nbsp; But come to think
of it, since the page numbers are part of the "facsimile" - I'll bet the
mix-up goes all the way back to<I> "Tho. Brudenell for John Partridge and
Humph. Blunden, in Blackfriers at the Gate going into Carter-lane, and
in Cornhil, 1647" </I>!!

<P>Best wishes, DKR</HTML>

--------------94F52B6466637D0BCEF89D23--


Thread: Diurnal v.s.Nocturnal
From: portent@teleport.com (KiearieAnna) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:25:25 -0700

>Hello, my thoughts about Diurnal were simular...but I believe Diurnal v.s.
>Nocturnal goes
>something like this; planets above the horizon in the chart,that is to say
>between the
>cusp of the 1st and 7th. Planets reletive to the placement
of space passing
>during the day are occuping durinal postitions. As different from
>nocturnal or below the horizon
>and between the 1st and 7th Cusp. An explanation of space >occupation of
>the planets. Portent



Thread: Venus and the elements
From: portent@teleport.com (KiearieAnna) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:42:59 -0700

>>Hello Denis,
Raphael describes Venus as Moist and Warm, ruling all senses of touch.
>>Could the list inform me if Raphael subscribed to Lilly's principals of
>>Horary? Thanks Portent



Thread: !Unexpectedly found....Lost Designer Sheers!
From: Vyri@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:52:48 -0400 (EDT)

>>Saluatations! (original chart has Jupiter and Uranus intercepted in 1st)
Very unexpectedly...
>>came across my sheers. I was very elated to find my misplaced, suspicion
shrouded,
>> mysterious scissors (in reference to my state of mind these days)incased
within a box, sandwiched in between
>> a book on prosperity thinking by Catherine Ponder along with some
Astrological research
>>papers I had logged from the William Lilly group,(surprisingly near an
article regarding
>>the where abouts of some lost contacts, from harris@interalpha.co.uk) Does
Jupiter
>>describe the alternate ruler of 2nd house possessions here? (may I use
him?...
I'd much
>>rather) I know the 1st Lord of the 2nd house of possessions is Neptune, and
in the 1st,
>>(and realize may accurately describe my state of mind (sigh) Pisces, my own
self undoing,
>> in this charts personality 1st, also adjoins
>>Pisces 2nd cusp of possessions, (being on the 2nd house cusp) describing
the misplacement
>> by my own hand (Neptune found back in 1st.(In my own progressed
chart Neptune and Saturn are having a field day conjunct my
>>Asc. in Libra this year, please excuse the imbalance) I truly have to watch
my train of thought these
>>days. Neptune is debilitated along with the moon in Cap. in 12th, so I was
wondering
>>if she is the one to look to regarding the element of time? My frame of
mind when I
>>found the scissors was 1st that of elation alternatly turning to suspicion,
then general
>>confusion. The correct appraisal of timing as to when certain events have
happened
>>over these past 4 weeks, has been the main culprit for my being in such a
confused state.
>>I wasn't at the time able to arrive at crucial conclusions in regards to
when the key was
>> put back, how it was, and if in fact it was given to me, personally by my
sister. Or weather
>> I remembered going through those papers on the shelve before, timing of
the correct order of events is the very important
>> foundation for making a correct assumption, that if in fact they were taken
or mislaid.
>> Briefly I began to wonder if the man I believed to have taken the scissors
had returned to
>> my home and put them back, because I not only found the sheers but also
found the key to
>> my home there among the papers, on the overhanging shelve (Capricorn) a
built in bar (Uranus, Aquarius, Capricorn)
>>adjoining my kitchen preparation area. I wish to believe my sister
returned the key not
>>long after the fears of mine were voiced openly to her, but I just can't
seem to remember
>> when.(For awhile I even thought she had come into my home and wedged the
sheers in between
>> the papers and book somewhat openly along with putting the key on the
shelve just out
>>of sight.(Mercury coming to the conjunction of Venus my home, openly) She
was at my house
>> not to long ago, say 6 or 7 days ago. (we later had an argument because of
this. (I maligned
>> both her and her boyfriend from fears I have not been able to let go of.)
But there is a happy ending to all of this (Venus conjunct Mercury) We are
talking more openly and caringly now.
>>From my nebulous/befuddled beginnings, a lot of positive energy has been
generated
>>(Mars in 8th house mutual reception with Saturn in Aries in third; my lower
mind; Saturn
>> ruler Cap. lst; Astrologers asc.) between my sister ((((5h house, Gemini
on its cusp representing
>> my 2nd sister; Mercury its ruler, trine Saturn, in prideful Leo, also soon
to conjunct with
>> the Lilly ruler 4th of Venus possessions, in the 7th, which also lead me
to believe she
>>could have put them back. Mercury also rules keys .....but wouldn't Mercury
have had to of
>>touched the Astrology papers and prosperity book? In the original chart he
opposes Jupiter
>> in the 1st, does he also represent the books and paper, putting them back
at a later date?))))
>> myself and her boyfriend......so many hidden subconscious evils have been
vented all for
>>the good. I am constantly renewing my passion for Astrology, and am
gaining
>> knowledge from all of the Astrological conversations and valued
information your members
>> have brought to light on the mailing list, I truly wish to say thanks. (
I'm afraid Jupiter in
>>the 1st is not held back anymore.) My sister and her friend seem to be much
more open
>>with each other also because of all this... . Thank you for the much gained
insight.
>>. At the time I came across my sheers, I was very aware
>> to note the time. (I became aware of Mercury being retrograde
also......Things will be corrected.... No doubt)

Aug. 23rd,l997@ 6:39PM/PDT; Beaverton, Oregon. 45N31/123W01 Thanks to
>>anyone who cares to comment or correct. Yours in learning.
V Y R I

Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:02:05 -0400

At 05:23 PM 8/21/97 GMT, you wrote:

>Are you saying that astrology is a like a matter of right and wrong
>(moral) or the meaning of life, not a tool which can have measurable
>effectiveness? If so, we'll just have to agree to disagree. To me, a
>horary which doesn't tell us if how and when we will find the lost ring
>is not doing what it's supposed to do.

If you wish to apply scientific methods to astrology, then do so. However,
I am not troubled by allowing astrology to work without them. To imply that
one cannot do a proper astrology without applied "scientific" methods is
just plain ridiculous. The problem with "science" is that it cannot account
for individual free will, indeed, can never do so as "science" is
irrevocably bound to a posteriori reasoning.

I have deleted the rest of the discussion because it is not germaine to the
study of William Lilly and Christian Astrology. If you wish to continue in
e-mail, I await your pleasure.


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: House sale
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:42:08 -0400

At 10:11 PM 8/20/97, you wrote:
>Dear Frank,
>
>I have looked at the chart in the way you suggest and this it what I find.
>
>My daughter's significator is the Moon at 0 Sag. The buyers significator is
>Saturn at 20 Aries. These will trine in 20 degrees. The sale is going
>through and settlement will be IN 20 DAYS AFTER THE CHART WAS CAST. The
>ruler of Alyson's finances is the Sun and the buyers finances is again
>Saturn. They are in trine orb 31 minutes. Saturn is also on the cusp of the
>10th from the 5th - the price of the property, the price is very low.
>
>Thanks for your suggestion. This way of looking at the chart certainly told
>the story.

You're welcome. Glad I was able to help.
>
>Thanks too to Jonathan for your input. Just a question though. How can you
>say that the Moon is VOC when it is at the beginning of a sign and will go
>on to aspect other planets before going on to the next sign?
>
I don't know for sure, but Jonathan may have had the same problem I did.
When I erected the chart for the date, time and place you gave, Moon came
up 29Sco and VOC. The Ascendant on my chart came up in the wrong decanate
... I could go on, but you get the idea. Rather than assume your chart was
in error, I started delving into my calculations for errors. (Saturn has
been paying his "respects" lately.) :)

Reasons: Under the conditions you gave, a chart with a VOC Moon made no
sense (endings do not come before beginnings). A Moon at or near the
beginning of a sign did. Also the rising degree I calculated made no sense
(Pisces decanate does not describe Mom, Cancer decanate does). Yours did.
So, your chart had to be right, mine wrong. I didn't say anything because I
did not want to complicate the problem. (Just now, I recalculated the chart
for a +9-hour time zone and got the correct result.)


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Venus and the elements
From: DENIS LABOURE <Laboure@wanadoo.fr> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:24:52 +0200

Hello,

Is Venus wet and HOT (Ptolemy, Morinus) or wet and COLD (Al-Biruni,
Lilly, Lulle, Rantzau) ?

Thank you.

Denis

Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:13:28 EDT


Hi Frank, thanks for the follow-up info, I had, literally, only just been
thinking that I hadn't heard anything on the radio for ages about the case
and hoping there would be some update soon, and voila! up comes your post!!

Now, I hesitate to ask this because I will doubtless show myself up as a
complete and utter numbskull - so what's new! - but, here goes. What do
you mean by 'diurnal chart'and it being a 'mundane technique'? I thought
diurnal chart meant purely a daytime chart. What am I misinterpreting here?

Thanks

Angela


Thread: HP22 & planetary hour
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:12:17

Dear Anne

I haven't seen a reply to this yet, so maybe I can help you out.

At 07:23 19/8/1997 +1000, Anne wrote:
>In the latest issue of the Horary Practitioner Issue 22 July '97 on page 11
>Sue Ward says in her excellent article on considerations before judgement
>"That the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the ascendant are of the same
>nature". Then she refers to footnote number 2 which says "It is not correct
>to look for agreement of nature between the ruler of the hour and the rising
>sign."
>Blast.
>I have been doing that all along. eg Sun being the planetary hour ruler, Sag
>on the Ascendant, both are hot and dry. So radical chart. But Jupiter ruler
>of Asc is hot and wet so according to Sue this is not a radical chart.

This rule is from Christian Astrology page 121/122.

>Have I misread something before or have others assumed the same?

I myself assumed the same, in fact I was taught that the hour ruler had to
match the rising sign by nature. 'Blast' isn't what I said when I
discovered it was wrong! I read over the text rather than into it assuming
that I had been told correctly.

Sue
>
>
>
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread: Moon void of course
From: "Andrzej Opejda" <stella@ikp.atm.com.pl> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:04:55 +0000

Yes, You can try my astrology home page:
http://www.atm.com.pl/~stella/almanach/průŅny.htm
There You find calendar of Moon VOC.
This is in Polish up to now but numbers are international.

Andrzej
stella@ikp.atm.com.pl

Thread: Will The Call Result In A Positive Outcome
From: Hardaspect@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:12:15 -0400 (EDT)

Although my question in the subject line has all the trappings of a horary
test, I am really looking at the chart in the same way you'd look at an event
or Election chart such as the UPS strike, etc. Here is the scenario: On July
29, 1997 - 10:45 AM - 75w09 39n57, I received a call for an important
potential business development. I was told at that time to submit a budget
and then we'd go from there. The budget has been submitted as of last week.
Does anyone have a feeler about whether or not this opportunity will unfold
or whether it will fall by the wayside?

Thanks,

Basil Fearrington

Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:23:39 GMT

Frank, On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:31:42 -0400, you (and I) wrote:

[ >> is JoAnne, > is Frank ]

>>I am a scientist, by training and by temperament. I know something
>>about astrology and I endeavor to research it. I, and anyone else who
>>has respect for the scientific method (which is a particular
>>philosophy with particular methods), will want to see not only
>>interesting ideas but the supporting evidence for them -- case
>>histories, and statistics if available.
>
>My regard for the scientific method and its applicability is not mutually
>exclusive of my training and temperament as a mystic.
>
>>Ideas without such support belong to other philosophies and as such we
>>can't debate them on the same basis. Right and wrong, for example, or
>>the meaning of life are not decidable using the scientific method
>>because it depends on measurable and reproducible results.
>
>Therefore, the scientific method is not applicable to such issues. That
>would be my point.

Are you saying that astrology is a like a matter of right and wrong
(moral) or the meaning of life, not a tool which can have measurable
effectiveness? If so, we'll just have to agree to disagree. To me, a
horary which doesn't tell us if how and when we will find the lost ring
is not doing what it's supposed to do.

>>I recently participated in a discussion (elsewhere) about an
>>astrological technique that, as far as I could see, had been
>>manufactured out of thin air. It looked interesting, it had some
>>"shape" to it, yet in the final analysis there was not only no
>>astrological reasoning behind it and no history behind it, but there
>>was not a single case history provided to support the technique.
>
>If there was no astrological reasoning, no tradition behind it, no evidence
>to support it, then any application of scientific standards would produce
>what? I do not see the point.
>>
>>I can only conclude that the idea was so orderly, so interesting and
>>so seductive that "it must be right." Perhaps it is, but I'm not
>>going to spend all my time chasing these kinds of ephemeral rainbow
>>holistic "solutions" because there are too many of them. Smoke a
>>couple of joints and you'll be able to come up with a few yourself.
>
>I do not "smoke joints", nor do I indulge myself in the kinds of things
>you're talking about. I fail to see any relevance to what I originally said.

I hope you'll forgive me if I might have something to say which is not
directly related to what you said.

First off, I did not accuse you of smoking anything or indulging in such
noodling. I was suggesting that it's easy for person X to come up with
theories that look and sound interesting, fascinating, and seem that they
must be right. Only by applying the theories in day-to-day practice will
one discover whether the theory is right or wrong. This is related to
the scientific method and its application to astrology. I thought that
was what we were discussing.

Essentially, I'm questioning some modern astrologers' penchant for
immediately finding astrological meaning in every newly discovered
astronomical object or phenomenon, in chaos theory, in relativity, in
string theory, in anything scientific they can hang a theory on, without
any regard to what the new idea really means. There's a difference
between adapting a system to a new paradigm, which is hard uncertain
work, and slapping a few new terms on a few old ideas, which is easy and
sells books.

I'm also suggesting that accepting things without examining them first is
no more sensible in astrology than it is in any other discipline, and
that the examination should go beyond "gee, that would be exciting if it
were true, so let's make it true." Traditional astrology has survived
because it works. New techniques must either hang around for hundreds of
years, or we can test them with the tools that honest scientists have
found to be reliable -- double blind studies, statistical analysis, and
so on.

And as to examining our old tools as well, you might wish to check out J.
Lee Lehman's book and her discussions on the Gauquelin effect intensified
by regarding sect. Not all scientific inquiry into astrology is
destructive.

>>>That has actually happened on at least one occasion. In 1910, Mickelson (of
>>>Mickelson-Morley fame) declared that all the laws of physics had been
>>>discovered. He said this even though Einstein, just five years earlier,
>>>turned the world of physics on its ear with his now-famous theory.
>>
>>I'd love to see that direct quote. Sure, the excitement of
>>consolidating certain aspects of physics previously thought to be
>>discrete unrelated entities might have led to an overstatement. Or
>>maybe his statement got mangled somehow. We've all heard the one
>>about someone saying we should close the U.S. patent office in 1910
>>because "everything that's worthwhile has already been invented."
>>It's a famous saying -- that no one ever said.
>
>I'm afraid someone did say it. I realize that scientists are overly
>sensitive about the missteps of other scientists, but the historical
>rewrites do get tiresome.

So you're saying you don't have the quote? I'll look for it myself,
then. I don't doubt that "someone" has said that, just that Michelson
was the culprit as you describe it.

And as I said, even if true, the quote doesn't condemn science, just a
particular scientist at a particular time. I'm not overly sensitive
about the missteps of other scientists, though I don't like that these
missteps (and bigger screwups and intentional lies) happen and I'm a
little ashamed of my colleagues when they do. However, I am sensitive
about unsubstantiated accusations. Aren't you?

If James Randi (who is not a scientist, by the way, but a stage magician)
makes accusations against astrology which are unfounded, are you not just
as angered by it?

I think you're placing me in the same camp with debunkers like Randi. He
is a performer first and foremost and is not above misstating his points
to get more attention; he makes just as many assumptions that "astrology
is wrong" that many others do that "astrology is right," without doing
the research, personal or scientific. He quotes studies that do not test
astrology as we know it as "proof" that astrology does not work.

>>The nature of the scientific method is to believe that the polls are
>>never closed; that new data can always invalidate what was thought to
>>be a fairly solid theory. New data is scrutinized closely but if it
>>turns out to be genuine it must be accepted and it must find a place.
>
>Eventually, that becomes the case.

Yes, eventually, and I'm glad we don't just jump up and rewrite the books
every time someone gets an anomalous result. Do you expect scientists to
roll over when some 14-year-old walks in to a physics lab and says, oh,
by the way, I made a perpetual motion machine? I hope not.

Neither would you or I roll over when someone comes in with some
gobbledygook astrobabble ideas. If we're interested, we test the new
idea, we ask the person to kindly explain how this theory came to be,
what is its background and pedigree and work history.

>>You can either fault the philosophy, or those who do not adhere to it,
>>but how can you say that the philosophy is wrong and those who do not
>>follow it are therefore wrong?
>
>I did not say that, so it is not possible for me to answer.

So, is the philosophy wrong? Are the scientists who fail to follow that
philosophy wrong? Which did I mishear?

-JoAnne

Thread: Jammed attachment
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:31:15 -0400

To whom it may concern,
Someone sent me, probably on Tues, an e-mail with attachment under the
subject "Present"; for some reason it would not go thru and I had to
have Netcom delete it; they could not tell me who it was from. So I am
sending this out to let whoever it was know that it crashed (thanks
anyway!). If this gets to the sender, please let me know! Best wishes,
DKR


Thread: House sale
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:11:56

Dear Frank,

I have looked at the chart in the way you suggest and this it what I find.

My daughter's significator is the Moon at 0 Sag. The buyers significator is
Saturn at 20 Aries. These will trine in 20 degrees. The sale is going
through and settlement will be IN 20 DAYS AFTER THE CHART WAS CAST. The
ruler of Alyson's finances is the Sun and the buyers finances is again
Saturn. They are in trine orb 31 minutes. Saturn is also on the cusp of the
10th from the 5th - the price of the property, the price is very low.

Thanks for your suggestion. This way of looking at the chart certainly told
the story.

Thanks too to Jonathan for your input. Just a question though. How can you
say that the Moon is VOC when it is at the beginning of a sign and will go
on to aspect other planets before going on to the next sign?

Love from over here,
Miriam

>By the way, did you attempt to read the chart with yourself as querent, or
>did you press ahead with the seller-First/buyer-Seventh reading?
>
>Frank Ernest

Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:43:46 -0400

Update from London Times of 17 august 1997: "A MAN was charged yesterday
with the murder of Dillon Hull, 5, who was shot dead while walking with his
stepfather near their home in Bolton, Greater Manchester, 11 days ago. Paul
Seddon, 26, who was remanded in custody until tomorrow by Bolton
magistrates, is also charged with the attempted murder of John Bates, the
boy's stepfather."

A diurnal chart based on the time and place of the original incident shows
Mercury, now in Eighth (near original house of shooting) at 16Vir very
close to station (killer unable to move) and exactly inconjunct Jupiter,
now ruler law-enforcement 12th and victims' First. Transiting Moon makes
exact trine to Venus (murdered child of original chart) and then goes
void-of-course (it's all over now). Since Jupiter rules 12th, the aspect to
Mercury shows the arrest and confinement.

Please allow me to advise that the use of diurnal charts is a mundane
technique I have not yet proven to myself. I offer the above for your
information and comments.

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Suggestions please!
From: jKschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:40:09 GMT

The Freedom Astrology site has Cell Salts pages for all the signs,
lovingly contributed by Sue Miller (thanks Sue!). It's at:

http://www.qis.net/~jschmitz/freedom.html

On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:57:36 +0100, you wrote:

>In message <871989666.052528.0@kiggee.demon.co.uk>, Lucy & Justyn
>Kendrick <Kiggee@kiggee.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Dear All,
>>
>>I have been lurking on your list for a while and would like to thank
>>everyone for the invaluable insights it has given me into an area of
>>astrology that beforehand baffled me!
>>
>>I am currently authoring a new web-site which I hope to turn into a good all
>>round guide to holistic practises, enabling the curious beginner to access a
>>wide variety of information on the net and elsewhere.
>>I was wondering if any of the list members have suggestions for good sites (
>>either their own or ones they know of) or publishers of material that I can
>>add to the pages on astrology in my site?
>>
>>Any suggestions will be very gratefully received
>>many thanks in advance
>>
>>Lucy.
>>
>Hi Lucy
>
>I can thoroughly recommend my own site!
>
>Regards
>
>David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
>Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
>134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
>London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
>UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html

-----------
when replying to me personally please note that my email address
must be modified slightly to work. Remove the letter "k" from my name.

Thread: Interesting chart
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:04:41 -0400

At 03:41 PM 8/19/97 BST, you wrote:

>I'm trying not to go under in the muddle that email communication inflicts
on >us. I'd like to clarify a couple of points.

Please explain "not to go under in the muddle." American not understand
some lingua Britannia. He try though. Hope British understand American
humor. :)
>
>I referred to the 'interesting chart' as a game because I knew (and you
knew I >knew) the 'answer': so it wasn't doing astrology for real - that's
why I called >it a game. I do appreciate the seriousness with which you
take the art because >of the success of your judgements.

Thank you for those kind words.
OK, seriously, "blind" charts should be real charts for a real event,
taking place at a real time and real place. Some are more difficult to read
than others. It is doing astrology for real. You did have an incident, but
the time you originally gave was not the time of the incident, therefore,
no chart drawn for the time, date and place you originally gave could
possibly identify the incident you were interested in. The time, date and
place you originally gave produced a stark, tragic, singular chart for an
event of which we both were unaware, you by mistake, I by choice.

There was too much in that chart for me to regard it as something trivial.
That's why I figured there must be some official notice somewhere of its
occurrence. As it happened, I was able to find such notice of an event
whose facts fit the chart exactly. Exactly, not probably, not maybe, but
exactly. If real life events do not match the astrological recounting of
said events, then astrology is worthless. With all due respect, the
incident you had in mind was trivial, was a chain of events not a singular
instance of something unusual. I did do a chart for the corrected time you
gave and could not identify anything pointed about it.

>But when you refer to 'physics', whose physics? Newtonian gravity is a
piece of string that holds a little thing close to a big thing
independently of time.

It appears that way because elementary Newtonian gravitational calculation
is for a specific time and specfic bilocation. One must employ Newtonian
calculus to account for time. Only Newton's gravitational constant is
independent of time, necessarily so.

>Einsteinian 'gravity' is as much a function of time as of space. The
>scientific, or Newtonian, revolution required replicable experiments
>independently of time.

Yes, that's why Newton's gravitational constant fell out. Newton relied on
the static, three-dimensional grid of a universe consisting of straight
lines with dimensions at right angles. He did not consider that space
itself might be curved. We do construct mathematical equations for a
specific time, which render time irrelevant to the particular calculation.
However, to claim that time has been rendered irrelevant because of it is
misleading. Einstein's gravimetric conclusions are based on relative
motions, concluding that time and space are necessarily inseparable for the
object in motion. As all objects ARE in motion continuously, time and space
are inseparable ipso facto.

>I suggest that that is why astrology was seen at the time to lack
scientific >credibility and fell from favour, it never operated within a
Newtonian >framework inasmuch as its experiments are no

Astrology fell into disrepute because of the Renaissance and the rise of
humanism. The "scientific" model cannot and does not account for anything
beyond the physical and material, which is its a posteriori limitation. IF
there had been, in fact, "nothing" to astrology, the Brave Young Turks of
Newton's time (and subsequent) would not have had to go to extraordinary
lengths to rewrite history and refer to astrologers as astronomers and
blatantly deny that such as Newton, Kepler, Galileo and Tycho Brahe were
astrologers.
>
>(I'm drawing on Geoffrey Cornelius' Moment of Astrology here), Cornelius
goes to great lengths to point out that horary only truly works when it is
'real', that is to say, when the judgement is to be acted upon (the woman
who consulted Lilly about her broken engagement). Which is also your point
about not being a 'game'. (On the other hand, I offered the chart because
we all need to practise somehow.)

It never hurts to sharpen one's deductive reasoning, but it does hurt when
one is required to deduce based on an erroneous set of facts and expected
to come to a correct conclusion.

Lilly pointed out that free will must be accounted for, i.e., the "broken
engagement." Cornelius is wrong. He attempts to render astrology into
celestial mechanics, which it is only partially, and human beings into
biological automatons. If the automaton doesn't react according to the
astrology, then the astrology is wrong. Rubbish. Horary astrology ALWAYS
works in competent hands. What doesn't work is a querent who disregards or
ignores competent advice. I refuse to accept that the tail should wag the
dog here.
>
>Cornelius also discusses at length a chart about his efforts to dispose of
his >aunt's house. Venus is at 9 gemini and mercury in 20 taurus. At a
critical >juncture in complicated negotiations he exercises 'mutual
reception by degree' >and now reconsiders the same chart but having venus
at 9 taurus and mercury at >20 gemini. I believe this is a valid rule of
horary, though hopefully someone >like Deb Houlding will have some info to
add. This is what I meant in my last >piece as a horary rule which defies
scient

It is not up to Horary Astrology to conform to the rules of "science." It
is up to "science" to conform to obvious reality, which "science" is more
politically-driven nonsense than observational/empirical. "Science" denies
that Astrology is empirically derived. In that sense, "science" is a liar.
"Science" claims that astrological correspondences do not occur at any rate
greater than that afforded by chance. Gauquelin (for one) proved them wrong
and they attacked his credentials and competence as a serious "scientist",
but not his facts.

Let us face an unpleasant fact here. "Science" fears anything than does not
conform to its Lucretian/Democritian political view of reality. I have no
reason, absolutely not one, to accept "scientific" rules as absolute
standards by which all must be judged. There is too much evidence to the
contrary.



Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 03:33:42 -0700

Julienne wrote:
>

>Actually, I work with 6000 asteroids. :) Because the heart is so much more
>prominent in a body, does not mean that the nerve endings have no importance
>or meaning. We need all of us to cover this giant umbrella from all
>perspectives. If those of us interested in one topic can study it, anf those
>interested in another can study that, and so on, eventually, if we can then
>communicate and share our studies, we will have covered all the spokes of
>the umbrella.

I don't disagree with this view but, as has been said, this particular list
is concerned with improving our understanding of one particular area.

May I offer another model for consideration?

Certainly the universe is always changing and we need to let go of deeply
held beliefs where they inhibit us. For me, the letting go was of a chunk of
the twentieth century astrology which I had learned when I found a different
set of rules to be more effective. I suspect many of the people on this list
would have a similar story.

The question of old v. new is only relevant if we think in terms of linear
time. Letting go of a twentieth century technique is the same process as
letting go of a seventeenth century technique. Letting go is letting go. The
ultimate test is "which technique does the job best?"

I see the rediscovery of traditional astrology rather as finding a wrecked
car on the scrap heap. The first job is to get the engine working and make
it roadworthy. Once that has happened we can begin to drive. Then we have
strip the rust down to bare metal and we can start putting a fresh coat of
paint on. Finally we might consider fitting a stereo system which probably
wasn't available when the car was scrapped.

The discovery of the text of Christian Astrology in the eighties is rather
like finding the old car. The stripping off of the rust and making it
roadworthy fits with the understanding of the classical approach while the
stereo system corresponds with the asteroids etc.

It seems to me that the last three to four years have seen us heavily
immersed in stage two with much research on such areas as void of course
planets, radicality, daily motion of Venus and Mercury.

I don't think this stage is anywhere near complete as yet. Personally, I
need to have a much better understanding of Lilly et al. before I get
immersed in the process of fitting asteroids to the system but it is
certainly possible that they have a place.

With all good wishes,
Jonathon





Thread: Christian Astrology
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:13:11 EDT


Can anyone tell me if there is a fault in the facsimile printing of CA?
Pages 169 to 176 appear to possibly be mixed up. At the bottom of each page
appears the word which appears on the subsequent page, but on these pages
it does not tally, and neither does the sense. For example, p169 carries over
'tleman', but, in fact p170 begins 'in the second...'; p171 carries over
'weeks', but p172 begins 'the sign of the 12th house be humain..'; p173
carries over 'in', but p174 begins 'tleman'....

However, swopping the pages around so that words and sense tally at the top of
the page, then displaces the bottom of the page.

Does anyone else have this problem or do I have a rogue copy? Failing which,
can anyone explain it?

Confused greatly

Angela


Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:30:24 +0000

At 12:45 PM 8/19/97 +0000, Frank Ernest wrote:
>At 12:19 AM 8/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>We should perhaps be a little more proud of what we have and neither seek
>>nor allow ourselves to be enticed into specious attempts at 'proving' our
>>science in terms which are quite alien to it. Say it loud - we're
>>astrologers & we're proud.
>
>I agree. There is no reason to attempt to "prove" astrology to those who
>know little or nothing about it and refuse to research it. There is no
>reason to attempt a justification of astrology to irrational materialists.
>I've tried this more often than I care to recount and it always results in
>a useless exchange of divergent politics.
>>
>>>What if medicine, modern technology, etc., were to claim that "All has
>>>already been discovered and is in the writings of the Gods of our
>>>Profession!" (for astrologers, read Kepler, et alia.) We wouldn't even have
>>>such fields as neuroscience, genetics, cell theory, etc.
>
>That has actually happened on at least one occasion. In 1910, Mickelson (of
>Mickelson-Morley fame) declared that all the laws of physics had been
>discovered. He said this even though Einstein, just five years earlier,
>turned the world of physics on its ear with his now-famous theory.

And what response did he get from the rest of the world? Reminds me of the
man who, a few years ago, proclaimed the end of history. History is clearly
still being made...:)

Julienne

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**


Thread: Suggestions please!
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:14:01 -0400

Hi, Lucy,

Visit http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/allen_edwall to find demo
and shareware software for downloading, sample screens, magazine reviews,
feature lists, text files, links to other sources, etc.


Allen

Thread: UPS Strike
From: Shirley Gray <GrayShirley@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:39:27 -0400

Frank Ernest wrote:
>
> What follows is my mundane astrological take on the UPS situation.
>
> UPS workers/Teamsters Union went on strike at 12:01 AM EST. Since the
> negotiations were taking place in Washington, DC, I used that location.
>
> Taking the sixth house (24 Vir) for the union and the 10th (24 Cap) for UPS
> company:
>
> Union ruler sixth, Mercury, is in the 5th of risk-taking, strong in Virgo
> approaching (but slowing in motion) Venus fallen in Virgo. Venus rules and
> trines Taurus rising which would help except that Mercury will not catch
> Venus. Mercury, the union leaders, is slowing down and makes its station on
> August 17th/18th before it can contact Venus (refranation) which, at that
> time, changes sign from fallen Virgo to strong Libra. The indication is
> that union leaders may have to refer the contract to the workers (something
> which they have so far refused to do).
>
> Mercury is also contracts, so the union leaders have analyzed and
> identified with the contract offer and regard it as the other side wanting
> too much (loosely opposed to retrograde legal Jupiter in
> Aquarius-of-disruptive-changes sextile UPS management).
>
> UPS Ruler 10th, Saturn, in behind-the-scenes 12th, is in fall in Aries,
> hemmed in (intercepted) and retrograde. Saturn of UPS management is sextile
> to Jupiter in 10th. However, Jupiter is weak in Aquarius and retrograde.
> Saturn does trine fifth cusp, calculated risk, but retrograde means
> rethinking strategy.
>
> Mercury and Saturn make no aspect, so union leaders and UPS management are
> out-of-touch with each other. Both sides are dealing from weak positions.
> Mars strikers are volatile and some altercations between strikers and
> others have been reported.
>
> Mars (workers) in sixth is separating from an opposition to Saturn in the
> 12th. Mars is detrimented and also hemmed in as is Saturn. The interesting
> feature is that Mars is in the sign of Saturn's exaltation, while Saturn is
> in Mars Home. It reinforces the opposition between two parties both dealing
> from weakness with ineffective help from outside.
>
> Both Mars and Saturn aspect Jupiter; Mars approaching a trine while Jupiter
> is approaching a sextile to Saturn. I expect Jupiter is the federal referee
> (in the 10th of executive authority, but out-of-sign). Jupiter in the sign
> on the 11th-of-Congress cusp and close to the cusp, but backing away, is
> additionally ineffective by opposition to Sun and Moon in Leo, square to
> Fortuna. Everyone loses money and prestige on this one.
>
> The union took the bigger risk by going on strike. Mercury rules and
> squares second cusp which may indicate limited resources to finance a
> strike. (Announced on TV that strike pay is $55 per week and striking
> workers cannot qualify for unemployment benefits. Some workers have crossed
> the picket lines to work; others are seeking work to replace lost income.)
>
> President Clinton (Leo Sun in Sag decanate) did refuse to intervene saying,
> "It would be inappropriate." Against the law would be more like it as legal
> Jupiter (in fact-finding Gemini decanate) opposes him and rules
> law-enforcing Pisces 12th. Sun (Clinton) is square Taurus rising in turn
> ruled by weak Venus, rendering the President powerless in the public view.
>
> Fortuna is semisextile to Saturn, inconjunct to Mars and square Jupiter.
> The federal referee is out-of-luck and both workers and UPS company are
> under financial stress with UPS in a slightly better position. Finances may
> be the imperative that forces a settlement.
>
> The Moon (public) is in the house of the union leaders, but different sign.
> Moon trines UPS management (Saturn) and sextiles UPS workers (Mars), so the
> public is sympathetic to workers, but favors management and opposes a
> government-imposed settlement.
>
> The two reportedly crucial issues are part-time workers and the union
> pension fund. The union wants more full-time jobs; the company wants
> control of the pension fund. Mars disposes Saturn and rules the
> pension-fund seventh (second of sixth), so the workers are likely to retain
> control and impose conditions. When Venus changes sign and enters equity
> Libra, the workers may get more full-time jobs. With Mercury retrograde and
> under increased worker pressure, the union leaders will have to reconsider
> the offered contract more favorably.
>
> As reported in the news, neither side wants a protracted strike. Mars of
> workers leaves intercepted Libra for Scorpio on 15 August giving more
> strength to the workers. It may be enough to force a vote on the contract.
> I expect the strike to conclude when Venus leaves Virgo for Libra on 17/18
> August.
>
>
>
> Frank Ernest
> You are invited to visit my home page at:
> http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Take a bow, Frank. You predicted that the UPS strike would end on August
17/18. Right on.
Shirley

Thread: Suggestions please!
From: david ryan <kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:57:36 +0100

In message <871989666.052528.0@kiggee.demon.co.uk>, Lucy & Justyn
Kendrick <Kiggee@kiggee.demon.co.uk> writes
>Dear All,
>
>I have been lurking on your list for a while and would like to thank
>everyone for the invaluable insights it has given me into an area of
>astrology that beforehand baffled me!
>
>I am currently authoring a new web-site which I hope to turn into a good all
>round guide to holistic practises, enabling the curious beginner to access a
>wide variety of information on the net and elsewhere.
>I was wondering if any of the list members have suggestions for good sites (
>either their own or ones they know of) or publishers of material that I can
>add to the pages on astrology in my site?
>
>Any suggestions will be very gratefully received
>many thanks in advance
>
>Lucy.
>
Hi Lucy

I can thoroughly recommend my own site!

Regards

David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html

Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:47:23 BST

Hi
I agree personality theories have had a bad press of late and the Jungian stuff fitted the model very well. I don't think Eysenck was doing more than pointing out a set of correlations just to annoy other psychologists. There was a letter of his in The Psychologistlast December telling everyone to stop being so sceptical and to pay attention to the Mars effect, also pointing out that a reviewer who refered to it as a time of year effect rather than a time of day effect hadn't done his homework. I canfess I hadn't got round to the book they were talking about; The Tenacious Mars Effect (1996) by Ertel & Irving, do you know it? I still think it's a long jump to claim Eysenck as a sympathiser.
I was more interested when I read your remark, in how astrology relates to the cognitive branch of psychology and constructivism generally. I'd never given it any thought until I read your comment and wondered if perhaps you had. Too difficult for bear of small brain like me just at the moment.

cheers
Jon

>In message <180897204549000C.jon@emarkt.com>, jon@emarkt.com writes
>>Hi David,
>>As a psychologist, well at least a member of the BPS, I'd be interested to know
>>how psychology is a branch of astrology!
>>cheers
>>Jon
>>
>Let me rephrase that slightly, one of the areas that astrology gives a
>lot of insight into is the psychological make up of people.
>
>There is the whole Jungian school of course that does quite literally
>use astrology in preparing their analysis.
>
>While Hans Eysenck has done some work on astrology, (his chart shows
>very clearly he is an introvert by the way).
>
>Where the paths start to divide is when the psychological descriptions
>of personality are seen as the final arbiter, the insight of astrology
>is that though the personality can become disturbed as shown by the moon
>the underlying individuality is still whole, in other words there is a
>deeper level than the personality.
>
>Regards
>
>
>David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
>Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
>134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
>London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
>UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html
>

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

Thread: Trans-Sun
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:52:51 +0000

At 04:16 AM 8/19/97 +0000, Michael K Jordan wrote:
>J.S.M.---
>
>I think you were caught in an elliptical argument, not having either Sun
>or Earth in the center :=) .... It may depend upon which planet your
>mind is thinking about at any time and where you place your concious
>sentient or ethereal being at any moment of thought since they all have
>different double center elliptical relations with the Sun (not to mention
>with each other as well). The physics of gravitation and levity would
>suggest that the Sun is not residing in a static spot in local space but
>can be displaced from its macro perceived residential space due to the
>gravitational alignments of its planetary fellow travelers. It is and
>shall remain a question of perspective. :=)
>
>One thing for sure is that everything is moving in a different direction
>and trying to comunicate at the same time. :=) The difference between
>conciousnesses is that some are controlled by gravity. while others are
>moved by levity. Science seems to sanctify gravity,- even so much as to
>change the definition of centrifugal to centripetal, converting eccentric
>levity to gravitational bondage. :=)
>
>Due to solar central attraction perspectives we are still hung up with
>Chuck and Di and Camilla. As we are ultimately able to move to other
>stars perhaps we shall be able to shed our "local star fantasies" and
>stop paying fealty to those whose gravitational attractions bring us to
>certain ruinious immolation. :=)
>
>How long will it take to leave this constricting and conceivably deadly
>paradigm?
>
>This groove is merely a grave with the ends kicked out!

My point exactly, Michael. :) We need to keep growing. Indeed, desite the
retrograde Saturnian forces, change is inexorable - dragging us screaming
and fussing to the next levels of awareness.



So, we need hindsight, consciousness of the present, and foresight.

Ethereally, sentientally, eccentrically, and gravitationally yours, with levity,

Julienne

Gee...we don't hear much about Charlie now that Di has left him, do we? And,
Camilla who? <g> Maybe they've been ruinously immolated?

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**


Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:49:53 +0000

At 12:52 PM 8/18/97 +0000, Jeanne Garner wrote:
>Hi, Julienne,
>
>In your recent note, you said:
>
>>I can almost not believe we are even having this discussion. I think we need
>>to remember that one of the reasons for astrology's decline as a respected
>>science is that astrologers have previously refused to move forward when
>>other sciences did.
>
>The thing is, this list is supposed to be about a certain astrological
>technique. It's an old one for sure, but it works very well as is. If we
>start adding the 'roids, the transsaturnians, and other modern innovations,
>then, all of the sudden, we're no longer using that one particular
>technique. We're doing something else altogether.

And as I said, I respect that, and do not expect those topics to be
discussed on this List. My objection is to closing off to other approaches
in our larger practices.

>The term "astrology" is actually a huge umbrella that includes =many=
>different techniques, some which do include the 'roids and some or all of
>the rest. As Carol just thoughtfully pointed out, there are lists and
>newsgroups for those. One of the best features of this list is that it's
>about a particular type of astrology that really interests me. 900
>asteroids, to me, seems like pouring 900 marbles into a small dish: some of
>those asteroids are certain to "conjunct" any given spot in that dish. With
>only 7 planets--or 5 planets, 1 Moon & 1 Sun--on the other hand, it is much
>more meaningful if one of them impacts a certain spot.

Actually, I work with 6000 asteroids. :) Because the heart is so much more
prominent in a body, does not mean that the nerve endings have no importance
or meaning. We need all of us to cover this giant umbrella from all
perspectives. If those of us interested in one topic can study it, anf those
interested in another can study that, and so on, eventually, if we can then
communicate and share our studies, we will have covered all the spokes of
the umbrella.

>Thus, I am relieved that those who do find the 'roids somewhat significant
>have a place to write to one another about it, leaving this one blissfully
>free for talking about one of my two favorite branches of astrology (the
>other one being Vedic astrology). In my own practice, I occasionally
>consider some of the outers, but as one person wrote, I use them mostly in
>secondary roles. When writing here, though (and I rarely do, due to time
>constraints), I try not to inflict them on the list. Topicality is what
>makes a mailing list worthwhile.
>
>Just my $.02...

> Jeanne
> ==-* My stars!

I have no argument with you on topicality. A List should be able to devote
itself to one topic or all. I have an astrology List, CHA*OS - where we are
open to all areas of astrology, as well as other fields which impinge on
astrology - such as history, philosophy, physics, etc. But if someone
started an asteroids-only List I would probably join, just as I joined the
Lilly List to focus in on one approach. :) There is need for all of us, in
general and in focus.

Julienne

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**


Thread: Moon void of course
From: Annmar2428@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:23:44 -0400 (EDT)

Hello All,

Does anyone know of a website that I can bookmark where I can go and
immediately see what the moon's status is ( as in void of course) ?

Many thanks,
Annmarie

Thread: Interesting chart
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:41:29 BST

Hi again Frank

I'm trying not to go under in the muddle that email communication inflicts on us. I'd like to clarify a couple of points.

I referred to the 'interesting chart' as a game because I knew (and you knew I knew) the 'answer': so it wasn't doing astrology for real - that's why I called it a game. I do appreciate the seriousness with which you take the art because of the success of your judgements.

But when you refer to 'physics', whose physics? Newtonian gravity is a piece of string that holds a little thing close to a big thing independently of time. Einsteinian 'gravity' is as much a function of time as of space. The scientific, or Newtonian, revolution required replicable experiments independently of time. I suggest that that is why astrology was seen at the time to lack scientific credibility and fell from favour, it never operated within a Newtonian framework inasmuch as its experiments are not replicable.

(I'm drawing on Geoffrey Cornelius' Moment of Astrology here), Cornelius goes to great lengths to point out that horary only truly works when it is 'real', that is to say, when the judgement is to be acted upon (the woman who consulted Lilly about her broken engagement). Which is also your point about not being a 'game'. (On the other hand, I offered the chart because we all need to practise somehow.)

Cornelius also discusses at length a chart about his efforts to dispose of his aunt's house. Venus is at 9 gemini and mercury in 20 taurus. At a critical juncture in complicated negotiations he exercises 'mutual reception by degree' and now reconsiders the same chart but having venus at 9 taurus and mercury at 20 gemini. I believe this is a valid rule of horary, though hopefully someone like Deb Houlding will have some info to add. This is what I meant in my last piece as a horary rule which defies scientific or empirical laws. Is this shocking to people in the group? It's interesting though.

I'll stop wittering there

Cheers

Jon

Sorry this is getting lengthy, are people getting exessively long downloads?


>At 09:06 PM 8/18/97 BST, you wrote:
>>Hi Frank
>>Well I'm not claiming to understand what I'm talking about (so what's
>new?), >but I think the argument would go along the lines that astrology
>takes place> >when an astrologer performs astrology. It is not tied to the
>external event but >(draw on relativity theory), is a function of the
>astrologer/observer's >consciousness (I hate that word).
>
>With all due respect, astrology is not a function of quantum mechanics or
>the Heisenburg Principle, nor is it relative to an astrologer's
>consciousness. It is a science, art and discipline empirically-based on
>precise time/date/location data. It is not reducible to metaphysical
>principles of centrism.
>
>>I'm sure physics would not be happy with using an ascendant generated
>elsewhere >(I think there simply wasn't an accurate time available, and the
>astrologer >used her own as symbolic of her participation in the activity
>of astrology), >but if we can cope with swopping planets in mutual
>reception by degree, quite a >lot more becomes acceptable that defies
>(maybe not so modern) physics.
>
>There is no true principle of astrology that defies physics. Mutual
>receptions do not come from consciousness or random symbolic musings, they
>come from empirical observation. What is not understood is why it works. As
>a aside, we do not swap planets in a mutual reception, we recognize an
>empirically-demonstrated exchange of energies without knowing precisely the
>underlying principle. So it is with physics as well. We have theories which
>explain how, but not why.
>
>>Astrology didn't fall apart with Alan Leo, it collapsed in the scientific
>>revolution when babies were chuckd=ed out with bathwater. I still hold
>there >are grounds for your reading being informative. For me it was an
>event chart, >but I asked you for a reading (although we both knew it was a
>game), which is a >different matter.
>
>Regrettably, I must inform you that I do not consider astrology a "game"
>nor do I ever practice it as one. If I had suspected a "game" was afoot, I
>would never have participated.
>>
>>And if it is magic, te=hen let's not overlook Lilly's involvement in the
>subtle >arts!
>
>Lilly's involvement in the subtle arts were not the basis for his
>astrology, rather the other way around. As it is with me.
>
>Warm Regards,
>
>
>Frank Ernest
>You are invited to visit my home page at:
>http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest
>

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: david ryan <kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:19:13 +0100

In message <180897204549000C.jon@emarkt.com>, jon@emarkt.com writes
>Hi David,
>As a psychologist, well at least a member of the BPS, I'd be interested to know
>how psychology is a branch of astrology!
>cheers
>Jon
>
Let me rephrase that slightly, one of the areas that astrology gives a
lot of insight into is the psychological make up of people.

There is the whole Jungian school of course that does quite literally
use astrology in preparing their analysis.

While Hans Eysenck has done some work on astrology, (his chart shows
very clearly he is an introvert by the way).

Where the paths start to divide is when the psychological descriptions
of personality are seen as the final arbiter, the insight of astrology
is that though the personality can become disturbed as shown by the moon
the underlying individuality is still whole, in other words there is a
deeper level than the personality.

Regards


David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html

Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:45:48 -0400

At 12:19 AM 8/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>We should perhaps be a little more proud of what we have and neither seek
>nor allow ourselves to be enticed into specious attempts at 'proving' our
>science in terms which are quite alien to it. Say it loud - we're
>astrologers & we're proud.

I agree. There is no reason to attempt to "prove" astrology to those who
know little or nothing about it and refuse to research it. There is no
reason to attempt a justification of astrology to irrational materialists.
I've tried this more often than I care to recount and it always results in
a useless exchange of divergent politics.
>
>>What if medicine, modern technology, etc., were to claim that "All has
>>already been discovered and is in the writings of the Gods of our
>>Profession!" (for astrologers, read Kepler, et alia.) We wouldn't even have
>>such fields as neuroscience, genetics, cell theory, etc.

That has actually happened on at least one occasion. In 1910, Mickelson (of
Mickelson-Morley fame) declared that all the laws of physics had been
discovered. He said this even though Einstein, just five years earlier,
turned the world of physics on its ear with his now-famous theory.

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Suggestions please!
From: Lucy & Justyn Kendrick <Kiggee@kiggee.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 05:31:14 -0700

Dear All,

I have been lurking on your list for a while and would like to thank
everyone for the invaluable insights it has given me into an area of
astrology that beforehand baffled me!

I am currently authoring a new web-site which I hope to turn into a good all
round guide to holistic practises, enabling the curious beginner to access a
wide variety of information on the net and elsewhere.
I was wondering if any of the list members have suggestions for good sites (
either their own or ones they know of) or publishers of material that I can
add to the pages on astrology in my site?

Any suggestions will be very gratefully received
many thanks in advance

Lucy.


Thread: Manchester Shooting Update
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 06:02:42 EDT


A man was charged with the shooting incident last Saturday. Three people
had been taken into custody, found in a house a few streets away from
the incident. The other two men were released.

Nothing that instantly appears to tie in to our interpretations yet, but I
will keep you posted.

Angela


Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 02:05:44 +0000

At 08:05 PM 8/18/97 +0000, jon@emarkt.com wrote:
>Hi David,
>As a psychologist, well at least a member of the BPS, I'd be interested to
know how psychology is a branch of astrology!
>cheers
>Jon

I'm not David ( I just play him on TV.:), but, as I agree with him, I
thought I'd answer your question as well. Astrology is the most
comprehensive projective test there is. There is more knowledge to be found
in the astrological chart than in any of the other such tests. And astrology
has been describing character and behaviour for millennia. It is the UR
psychology...the root study of the psyche.

And as this is, I guess, not a proper topic for the Lilly List, I have just
given the short answer. :)

Julienne

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**


Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 01:45:19 +0000

At 07:19 AM 8/18/97 +0000, John Frawley wrote:

Julienne wrote:

>>I can almost not believe we are even having this discussion. I think we need
>>to remember that one of the reasons for astrology's decline as a respected
>>science is that astrologers have previously refused to move forward when
>>other sciences did.
>>>>>>>>>>But respected by WHOM? The parlous state of modern astrology was
>>>>>>>>>>caused by the efforts of Leo & others to force a true science to
>>>>>>>>>>conform to the ideas of the modern pseudo-sciences - to become
>>>>>>>>>>'respected' by those whose respect has no value.

Well, John, you and I are a few centuries apart in looking for the decline
of astrology's respectability...

>We should perhaps be a little more proud of what we have and neither seek
>nor allow ourselves to be enticed into specious attempts at 'proving' our
>science in terms which are quite alien to it. Say it loud - we're
>astrologers & we're proud.

Well, yes...but that doesn't let us off the hook at doing rigorous studies
and research, even if it means we have to design new methodologies for
testing astrology.

>>What if medicine, modern technology, etc., were to claim that "All has
>>already been discovered and is in the writings of the Gods of our
>>Profession!" (for astrologers, read Kepler, et alia.) We wouldn't even have
>>such fields as neuroscience, genetics, cell theory, etc.

>>>>>>>>>>Now there's a thought!

<g>

>>our conferences consist of the same lectures by the same people on the same
>>topics, and are controlled by the same organizers who decide what is or
>>isn't worth hearing. Very little new or startling material is presented.
>>What we need is a research facility, or research funding on a large scale,
>>so that real work can be done without all the personal cronyism which at the
>>moment controls what is done, and which is what is presented to the
>>community-at-large.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>But this is one way in which we behave EXACTLY as a modern
>'science'. This alone should ensure us some respect.

Again - sort of... Certainly I don't let the other sciences off the hook
either. But I have a feeling one might find a lot more Saturnian types in
the other sciences than in astrology today. Discipline is hardly one of our
notable attributes. :) Maybee astrology is hard to "prove" - but I'm not
sure that there are too many of us who really want to even address the
problem, or are qualified to. Maybe that doesn't matter - but I rather think
it would be nice if astrologers knew a little more physics, etc...and I
include myself. I think it's only when astrology becomes somehow mainstream
that we will have access to people with the type of knowledge and funding,
etc...which may finally pull it all together. However, there are not sound
explanations for many of the other sciences either, despite what we are told
- so we are not alone in fundering for explanations.

Warmly,

Julienne

Julienne


**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**


Thread: HP22 & planetary hour
From: spica@world.net (Anne Elliott) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:23:17 +1000 (EST)

In the latest issue of the Horary Practitioner Issue 22 July '97 on page 11
Sue Ward says in her excellent article on considerations before judgement
"That the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the ascendant are of the same
nature". Then she refers to footnote number 2 which says "It is not correct
to look for agreement of nature between the ruler of the hour and the rising
sign."
Blast.
I have been doing that all along. eg Sun being the planetary hour ruler, Sag
on the Ascendant, both are hot and dry. So radical chart. But Jupiter ruler
of Asc is hot and wet so according to Sue this is not a radical chart.
Have I misread something before or have others assumed the same?
Anne


Thread: Trans-Sun
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:16:48 pdt

J.S.M.---

I think you were caught in an elliptical argument, not having either Sun
or Earth in the center :=) .... It may depend upon which planet your
mind is thinking about at any time and where you place your concious
sentient or ethereal being at any moment of thought since they all have
different double center elliptical relations with the Sun (not to mention
with each other as well). The physics of gravitation and levity would
suggest that the Sun is not residing in a static spot in local space but
can be displaced from its macro perceived residential space due to the
gravitational alignments of its planetary fellow travelers. It is and
shall remain a question of perspective. :=)

One thing for sure is that everything is moving in a different direction
and trying to comunicate at the same time. :=) The difference between
conciousnesses is that some are controlled by gravity. while others are
moved by levity. Science seems to sanctify gravity,- even so much as to
change the definition of centrifugal to centripetal, converting eccentric
levity to gravitational bondage. :=)

Due to solar central attraction perspectives we are still hung up with
Chuck and Di and Camilla. As we are ultimately able to move to other
stars perhaps we shall be able to shed our "local star fantasies" and
stop paying fealty to those whose gravitational attractions bring us to
certain ruinious immolation. :=)

How long will it take to leave this constricting and conceivably deadly
paradigm?

This groove is merely a grave with the ends kicked out!


Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Mon, 18 Aug 1997 01:33:44 +0000 Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>
writes:
>>Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:25:32
> I said, unfortunately,
>
>>I can almost not believe we are even having this discussion. I think
>we
>need to remember that one of the reasons for astrology's decline as a
>respected science is that astrologers have previously refused to move
>forward when other sciences did. I am referring to our dragging our
>feet
>over, for instance, the demise of the solar-centric view of our
>system.
>
>What I _meant_ to say, was "the earth-centered view of our system".
>
>While I am at it, I might as well add that even this was hinted at
>centuries, and perhaps millennia earlier...
>
>Julienne
>
>**_________________________________________________________________
>
>Julienne Sturm-Mullette
>Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
>Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
>Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
>Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030
>
>_________________________________________________________________**
>
>

Thread: FW:Interesting chart
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:06:04 BST



>Hi Frank
>Well I'm not claiming to understand what I'm talking about (so what's new?), but I think the argument would go along the lines that astrology takes place when an astrologer performs astrology. It is not tied to the external event but (draw on relativity theory), is a function of the astrologer/observer's consciousness (I hate that word). I'm sure physics would not be happy with using an ascendant generated elsewhere (I think there simply wasn't an accurate time available, and the astrologer used her own as symbolic of her participation in the activity of astrology), but if we can cope with swopping planets in mutual reception by degree, quite a lot more becomes acceptable that defies (maybe not so modern) physics. Astrology didn't fall apart with Alan Leo, it collapsed in the scientific revolution when babies were chuckd=ed out with bathwater. I still hold there are grounds for your reading being informative. For me it was an event chart, but I asked you for a reading (althou!
gh we both knew it was a game), which is a different matter.
>
>And if it is magic, te=hen let's not overlook Lilly's involvement in the subtle arts!
>
>cheers
>Jon
>
>>At 11:41 PM 8/17/97 BST, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't have Frank's address - but please feel free to forward this note. I
>>>>admire a man with the courage of his convictions!'
>>>>bye
>>>>
>>Frank's e-mail is fjernest@thepoint.net
>>
>>Frank's snail mail is:
>>Frank Ernest
>>790 Irving Drive #123
>>Clarksville, IN 47129
>>USA
>>
>>=======================================================================
>>
>>>>At 05:24 PM 17/08/97 BST, you wrote:
>>>>>hello again,
>>>>>Frank wrote to me saying his reading would be completely wrong since he had
>>>>used (thanks to me) wrong data. But what you say is interesting because I
>>>>can very easily imagine some astrologers I know arguing that the first chart
>>>>was valid because it was the chart that was given to the astrologer (you and
>>>>Frank) to judge, never mind the reasons or the logic behind its derivation.
>>>>I think there is an area of weird rules for horary (antiscia &c), which
>>>>don't appeal to logic and common sense but which work. I recall one
>>>>astrologer who was stuck for an ascendant and put in her own ascendant,
>>>>producing a perfectly viable chart that produced results. It might be worth
>>>>posting what you said to the group to see if anyone else has comments to
>>add.
>>>>>
>>>>>cheers
>>>>>Jon
>>
>>This is very confusing. I do not know how one could correctly identify the
>>incident recounted on a chart by using an incorrect time. How could one
>>possibly, for instance, identify an event that occurred at 4am (date and
>>place correct) with a chart for 11am? If one could, one would have to
>>assume that time is irrelevant to astrology and that planetary placements
>>are simply random indicators allowing random (or just plain lucky)
>>interpretations. In like manner, there is no way an incident occurring at
>>11am could be reflected in a chart for 3:45pm. The 3:45pm chart would be a
>>transit chart for the 11am one. Without knowing of the 11am incident (and
>>having chart for same), one has no foundation for judgment as one is
>>deficient of basic facts. As a pointed example, I could pose the question:
>>Will my father buy a house? A radical chart will give an answer. The
>>problem is my father has been dead for some years.
>>
>>Consider that we were working with an event chart, not a horary. In a
>>horary, we deal with the ramifications of a querent's current situation. In
>>one sense, the "event" is the querent posing the question. If time were not
>>critical to horaries, then one could simply draw up a single chart and use
>>it to answer any question posed for any time. One can see how chaotic this
>>would become as any and all charts would be radical and relevant to any
>>question or event. (Or, if one doesn't like the VOC Moon, just back the
>>chart up a few hours so the Moon is no longer VOC.)
>>
>>Considering your example of the astrologer who used her own ascendant when
>>she was "stuck" (I really don't know how one can be "stuck" for an
>>Ascendant on a chart), I must be bluntly critical. That was not astrology,
>>that was magic and some lucky guessing.
>>
>>Perhaps the rules developed by our predecessors seem unreasonable, but the
>>obvious sometimes is. The rules were developed from centuries of empirical
>>observation, not hypothetical considerations of how things "should" work,
>>divorced from the reality of life.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:05:24 BST

Hi David,
As a psychologist, well at least a member of the BPS, I'd be interested to know how psychology is a branch of astrology!
cheers
Jon

>
>
>when it is much more that pyschology is a branch of astrology.
>
>
>David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
>Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
>134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
>London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
>UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html
>

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

Thread: Interesting chart
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:16:10 -0400

At 11:41 PM 8/17/97 BST, you wrote:
>
>>
>>I don't have Frank's address - but please feel free to forward this note. I
>>admire a man with the courage of his convictions!'
>>bye
>>
Frank's e-mail is fjernest@thepoint.net

Frank's snail mail is:
Frank Ernest
790 Irving Drive #123
Clarksville, IN 47129
USA

=======================================================================

>>At 05:24 PM 17/08/97 BST, you wrote:
>>>hello again,
>>>Frank wrote to me saying his reading would be completely wrong since he had
>>used (thanks to me) wrong data. But what you say is interesting because I
>>can very easily imagine some astrologers I know arguing that the first chart
>>was valid because it was the chart that was given to the astrologer (you and
>>Frank) to judge, never mind the reasons or the logic behind its derivation.
>>I think there is an area of weird rules for horary (antiscia &c), which
>>don't appeal to logic and common sense but which work. I recall one
>>astrologer who was stuck for an ascendant and put in her own ascendant,
>>producing a perfectly viable chart that produced results. It might be worth
>>posting what you said to the group to see if anyone else has comments to
add.
>>>
>>>cheers
>>>Jon

This is very confusing. I do not know how one could correctly identify the
incident recounted on a chart by using an incorrect time. How could one
possibly, for instance, identify an event that occurred at 4am (date and
place correct) with a chart for 11am? If one could, one would have to
assume that time is irrelevant to astrology and that planetary placements
are simply random indicators allowing random (or just plain lucky)
interpretations. In like manner, there is no way an incident occurring at
11am could be reflected in a chart for 3:45pm. The 3:45pm chart would be a
transit chart for the 11am one. Without knowing of the 11am incident (and
having chart for same), one has no foundation for judgment as one is
deficient of basic facts. As a pointed example, I could pose the question:
Will my father buy a house? A radical chart will give an answer. The
problem is my father has been dead for some years.

Consider that we were working with an event chart, not a horary. In a
horary, we deal with the ramifications of a querent's current situation. In
one sense, the "event" is the querent posing the question. If time were not
critical to horaries, then one could simply draw up a single chart and use
it to answer any question posed for any time. One can see how chaotic this
would become as any and all charts would be radical and relevant to any
question or event. (Or, if one doesn't like the VOC Moon, just back the
chart up a few hours so the Moon is no longer VOC.)

Considering your example of the astrologer who used her own ascendant when
she was "stuck" (I really don't know how one can be "stuck" for an
Ascendant on a chart), I must be bluntly critical. That was not astrology,
that was magic and some lucky guessing.

Perhaps the rules developed by our predecessors seem unreasonable, but the
obvious sometimes is. The rules were developed from centuries of empirical
observation, not hypothetical considerations of how things "should" work,
divorced from the reality of life.






Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: david ryan <kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:00:56 +0100


I thought Julienne's beautifully presented plea for open minds and open
hearts skirted a little around one at least of the reasons for the
revival in interest in the older disciplines and findings of astrology.

But there is no real opposition going on here, a lot of modern
astrologers would like to reduce astrology to a branch of psychology,
when it is much more that pyschology is a branch of astrology.

The greater concentration on predictions and events in the old texts is
a healthy corrective to this.

But it is rather like the two sides of Uranus, the illuminations can
come from the distant past as well as the far future, it is my own
belief that computer power is now opening up the beautifully simple but
astonishingly complex forces at work in our lives in a way that was
impossible before, and I speak as someone who used to do the
calculations by hand, now we can concentrate on the interpretations.


David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html

Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: jeanneg@icon.net (Jeanne Garner) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:52:40 -0500 (CDT)

Hi, Julienne,

In your recent note, you said:

>I can almost not believe we are even having this discussion. I think we need
>to remember that one of the reasons for astrology's decline as a respected
>science is that astrologers have previously refused to move forward when
>other sciences did.

The thing is, this list is supposed to be about a certain astrological
technique. It's an old one for sure, but it works very well as is. If we
start adding the 'roids, the transsaturnians, and other modern innovations,
then, all of the sudden, we're no longer using that one particular
technique. We're doing something else altogether.

The term "astrology" is actually a huge umbrella that includes =many=
different techniques, some which do include the 'roids and some or all of
the rest. As Carol just thoughtfully pointed out, there are lists and
newsgroups for those. One of the best features of this list is that it's
about a particular type of astrology that really interests me. 900
asteroids, to me, seems like pouring 900 marbles into a small dish: some of
those asteroids are certain to "conjunct" any given spot in that dish. With
only 7 planets--or 5 planets, 1 Moon & 1 Sun--on the other hand, it is much
more meaningful if one of them impacts a certain spot.

Thus, I am relieved that those who do find the 'roids somewhat significant
have a place to write to one another about it, leaving this one blissfully
free for talking about one of my two favorite branches of astrology (the
other one being Vedic astrology). In my own practice, I occasionally
consider some of the outers, but as one person wrote, I use them mostly in
secondary roles. When writing here, though (and I rarely do, due to time
constraints), I try not to inflict them on the list. Topicality is what
makes a mailing list worthwhile.

Just my $.02...



Jeanne
==-* My stars!


Thread: Event or Horary...any suggestions?
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:55:51 +0100

>Hello!
>
>I'm new to this list and am enjoying all the postings. You're quite a
>prolific group :^). I am looking for your opinions on how best to approach a
>request by a friend of mine. He is a lawyer and former judge and is now
>planning on running for mayor of the town where he lives. The election is a
>ways off - May 1999. He asked me to take a look at the charts and let him
>know what I thought. He did not really ask the question in a true Horary
>sense which is why I'm making this inquiry of you.
>
>Along with looking at his natal chart, transits and progressions, and solar
>return, would you look to an event chart for the time of the start of the
>mayoral election or would you suggest he ask a horary question?
>
>All suggestions will be appreciated!
>
>Regards,
>Carole (Fretts) Bouchard
>
Hello, Carol,

In your situation, I would inform him that I offered a horary service and
explain what that was and invite him to use it if he felt it could be of use
to him at his present crosroads then let him make the decision on what to do
and how best to do it.

Otherwise, if you more or less tell him to ask a question and end up being
very involved in the development of it you might end up in a similar
predicament to one I experienced a couple of years ago where the Ascendant
actually describes you as querent and not the man for whom the horary is to
be done. Just give him information about your service and let him make his
own mind up - that's probably the best way.

Kind regards,

Pat.


Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:19:07 -0700

>I can almost not believe we are even having this discussion. I think we need
>to remember that one of the reasons for astrology's decline as a respected
>science is that astrologers have previously refused to move forward when
>other sciences did.
>>>>>>>>>But respected by WHOM? The parlous state of modern astrology was
>>>>>>>>>caused by the efforts of Leo & others to force a true science to
>>>>>>>>>conform to the ideas of the modern pseudo-sciences - to become
>>>>>>>>>'respected' by those whose respect has no value.
We should perhaps be a little more proud of what we have and neither seek
nor allow ourselves to be enticed into specious attempts at 'proving' our
science in terms which are quite alien to it. Say it loud - we're
astrologers & we're proud.

>What if medicine, modern technology, etc., were to claim that "All has
>already been discovered and is in the writings of the Gods of our
>Profession!" (for astrologers, read Kepler, et alia.) We wouldn't even have
>such fields as neuroscience, genetics, cell theory, etc.
>>>>>>>>>Now there's a thought!

>our conferences consist of the same lectures by the same people on the same
>topics, and are controlled by the same organizers who decide what is or
>isn't worth hearing. Very little new or startling material is presented.
>What we need is a research facility, or research funding on a large scale,
>so that real work can be done without all the personal cronyism which at the
>moment controls what is done, and which is what is presented to the
>community-at-large.
>>>>>>>>>>>>But this is one way in which we behave EXACTLY as a modern
'science'. This alone should ensure us some respect.

Best regards, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk



Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 01:33:44 +0000

>Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:25:32
I said, unfortunately,

>I can almost not believe we are even having this discussion. I think we
need to remember that one of the reasons for astrology's decline as a
respected science is that astrologers have previously refused to move
forward when other sciences did. I am referring to our dragging our feet
over, for instance, the demise of the solar-centric view of our system.

What I _meant_ to say, was "the earth-centered view of our system".

While I am at it, I might as well add that even this was hinted at
centuries, and perhaps millennia earlier...

Julienne

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**


Thread: Interesting chart
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:41:16 BST


>
>I don't have Frank's address - but please feel free to forward this note. I
>admire a man with the courage of his convictions!'
>bye
>
>At 05:24 PM 17/08/97 BST, you wrote:
>>hello again,
>>Frank wrote to me saying his reading would be completely wrong since he had
>used (thanks to me) wrong data. But what you say is interesting because I
>can very easily imagine some astrologers I know arguing that the first chart
>was valid because it was the chart that was given to the astrologer (you and
>Frank) to judge, never mind the reasons or the logic behind its derivation.
>I think there is an area of weird rules for horary (antiscia &c), which
>don't appeal to logic and common sense but which work. I recall one
>astrologer who was stuck for an ascendant and put in her own ascendant,
>producing a perfectly viable chart that produced results. It might be worth
>posting what you said to the group to see if anyone else has comments to add.
>>
>>cheers
>>Jon
>>
>>>ITS ME AGAIN - I AM NOT AN EXPERIENCED E-MAIL USER AND AM FOREVER PRESSING
>>>WRONG BUTTONS AND GETTING MYSELF INTO ALL KINDS OF TROUBLE - SORT OF LIKE
>>>THE LADY WITH THE AUTOMATIC CAR. I DID A CHART FOR 11 O'CLOCK BUT DIDN'T
>>>SEEM TO RELATE TO IT AS WELL AS THE WRONG ONE - STORY OF MY LIFE - ALWAYS
>>>PICKING THE LOSERS - BUT NOW I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED - I WILL TRY AND MAKE THE
>>>BODY FIT THE COFFIN. EITHER WAY - GREAT FUN THE FIRST TIME - AND GREAT
>>>STORY THE SECOND TIME. CHEERS FROM DOWN UNDER. BYE
>>>
>>>>Hi, my reader isn't telling me who you a
>>
>>
>>
>
>



Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:25:59 +0000

At 02:22 AM 8/17/97 +0000, Diana K. Rosenberg wrote:
>RD wrote:

>> However... I think it would be as inequitable to discard the
>> modern
>> planets will-he-nill-he, as it is for modern astrology to discard the
>> classical techniques we all find so helpful, accurate and
>> enlightening.

>> I think we all need to remember that God put the transaturnians
>> there for a reason, and we would be remiss as Astrologers to not find
>> an adequate and accurate way to make use of them. I'm NOT saying that
>>
>> we should insert these square pegs into the round holes of classical
>> astrology... the system is complete as it stands and should NOT be
>> tampered with. However, we modern day astrologers do have perhaps a
>> duty to continue the research that our Ancient forbears began. I can
>> only offer my opinion here, but I feel that if Lilly were here today,
>> he'd find a way to use'em. (I say much the same thing to purist
>> classical musicians, "If Bach were here today I'm sure he'd be using
>> synthesizers and MIDI!")
>>
>> Please, let's don't throw out the baby with the bathwater! If we
>> accuse the modern psychological school of so doing, we must face the
>> same accusations from them, and have a better response than "if it
>> ain't broke don't fix it"! I say, "don't FIX it... add on to it...
>> create a new model, do whatever it takes. God put these bodies here
>> for a reason, and damn it, I think we owe it to the SCIENCE (ART??) to
>> find them a place in it!" Rick
>
> I am in complete agreement, with what you wrote, and it was, I must
>say, very well put! There are some things that the outers are vital for
>(computers and all electronics are definitely Uranian, for instance);
>let's keep a balance, otherwise I'm afraid there's a danger of
>dogmatism. Thanks for the message. DKR

I can almost not believe we are even having this discussion. I think we need
to remember that one of the reasons for astrology's decline as a respected
science is that astrologers have previously refused to move forward when
other sciences did. I am referring to our dragging our feet over, for
instance, the demise of the solar-centric view of our system.

To claim that we already know everything there is to know, that there is no
need for modern research, that the discovery of more planets or other
heavenly bodies has no relevance to astrology, that all there is to know
about astrology can be found in the fragmented hand-me-down writings of dead
guys whho aren't even here to explain to us what they meant by the various
passages of their writings to which we cling, seems to me totally arrogant,
visionless, unimaginative, just plain stupid, anti-any intellectual
tradition of which I know. This is like traditional religionists insisting
that God has already said everything, and it's all in the Bible - and all we
have to do is follow God's words, and all will be right with the world.

This is very Saturnian - believing that Daddy/teacher/God/past society has
all the answers and we should all just be good children and continue to
always what has been done before. Baloney! We need to be familiar with the
work of the "ancients", just as it is important to know the roots of one's
discipline. And maybe, as their works are translated, whether by Rob Hand,
Project Hindsight, or others, we will uncover valuable lost material and
techniques. Some consider that this has already happened. Others say that
testing of someo of these ancient techniques has so far not revealed any
particular accuracy. Hopefully there will be disciplined further testing, so
we can examine these echniques thoroughly.

But to insist that the ancient works contain the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, is authoritarian and restrictive, and reminds me of
the religious Right (what I call the religious wrong) who also cling to past
authorites, *as translated and interpreted by them*, and their vision of
"the truth" which they seek to impose on everyone else - including American
society. This is not, of course, limited to American society or to
Christianity - but spreads throughout most religion-based cultures
worldwide. Religion has always been a very effective way to subdue the
masses - who can be easily intimidated into following the state line -
especially when, in the past, NOT follwing the party line often meant
lopping off heads and massacres of whole villages, etc. All of this
continues on into today.

I know astrologers are merely human, but I would like to hope we could be a
little less blindly authoritarian, a little less impressed by those who set
themselves up as the "experts" who decree for anyone else what the
astrological truths are. In truth, we astrologers are still struggling for
"the truth". There is so much work needed to be done to test and examine
both old and new astrological theories before we can know definitively what
actually works. Too many of us tend to be impressed by a little Greek and
Latin, or statements from people who have read or studied something they
haven't. We need to be not so quick to accept on faith ANY statements from
anyone. Unfrotunately too many astrologers are not really able to conduct
research, or to test for value or accuracy of most astrological theories. We
hear of sme new theory, run it though the charts of our family members and a
few clients and charts of a handful of famous people, and Eureka! - we have
"proved" an old or new theory. So much astrology is based on popular
enthusiasm and _preliminary_ investigation. Whole books have been written on
astrological theories by people who have little familiarity with these
theories - and yet these books are accepted slavishly as "expert". They are
not, and should be advertised by the authors as preliminary discussions.

What if medicine, modern technology, etc., were to claim that "All has
already been discovered and is in the writings of the Gods of our
Profession!" (for astrologers, read Kepler, et alia.) We wouldn't even have
such fields as neuroscience, genetics, cell theory, etc. Granted, many of
modern theories in a variety of fields were hinted at by, for instance,
Aristotle, Michelangelo, and other scientists, artists, and philosophers of
various historical periods. And we have built upon their work, and continue
to do so. I might also add that it is a kind of hubris to assume that the
moderns know everything - and to forget to attribute to the past what was
envisioned and explored previously, at least to some level.

Astrology is such an enormous field, with ramifications and applications
reaching into every area of life. There is so much to be done, that to waste
our time trying to convert each other to our individual interests or area of
enthusiasm is a waste of time and energy, and self-defeating. Let those who
want to study only "traditional" astrology do so, and let's hope they share
their findings with the rest of us. Let those who want to study Black Holes
and asteroids and trans-saturnians do so, and present their findings to the
rest of us.

What concerns me is that we seem, as a science. to be so stuck. So many of
our conferences consist of the same lectures by the same people on the same
topics, and are controlled by the same organizers who decide what is or
isn't worth hearing. Very little new or startling material is presented.
What we need is a research facility, or research funding on a large scale,
so that real work can be done without all the personal cronyism which at the
moment controls what is done, and which is what is presented to the
community-at-large.

Let's recognize the enormity of the work to be done, and stop scrapping
around the edges with each other and being so self-indulgent about what we
consider "research". We need discipline, we need openness, we need
tolerance, and we need to explore and study ALL reasonable approaches to
astrology, both ancient and modern. Instead of competing, we need to be
supporting each other's work and communicating. That doesn't mean that the
Lilly List has to be open to "modern" astrology - a focus group has a right
to focus. But it does mean that our over-all intent and philosophy needs to
be more tolerant. You realize, of course, that the Black-holers and
Asteroiders would by now by under house arrest or drinking hemlock if we
were to follow "ancient" wisdom. Our means of intolerance have changed -
nowadays we simply sideline and exclude each other when we disagree.

Plus ca change...? But it would be nice to see us making an effort to
overcome our personal prejudices and limitations, and it could only be of
great benefit to Astrology.

Julienne

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**


Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 11:38:37

At 22:22 16/8/1997 -0400, you wrote:
>RD wrote:
>> However... I think it would be as inequitable to discard the
>> modern
>> planets will-he-nill-he, as it is for modern astrology to discard the
>> classical techniques we all find so helpful, accurate and
>> enlightening.

Since discarding the trans-Saturnians I have found the chart simpler to
read and more direct in its answer, of whatever nature.

>> I think we all need to remember that God put the transaturnians
>> there for a reason, and we would be remiss as Astrologers to not find
>> an adequate and accurate way to make use of them. I'm NOT saying that

We can, unfortunately, only speculate as to God's purpose, but I could say
the complete opposite to Rick and be just as right.

>> we should insert these square pegs into the round holes of classical
>> astrology... the system is complete as it stands and should NOT be
>> tampered with. However, we modern day astrologers do have perhaps a
>> duty to continue the research that our Ancient forbears began. I can
>> only offer my opinion here, but I feel that if Lilly were here today,
>> he'd find a way to use'em. (I say much the same thing to purist

Maybe we need to keep a 'traditional' perspective here. The planets were
always dealt with according to rays or beams - this is most noticeable in
techniques such as translation or collection of light - that is what they
could see (orbs of aspect are based on this). This was partly the reason
for what they say about a planet's invisibility, the negative connotations
regarding planets, particularly the Lights, below the horizon. Only Uranus,
I understand, is occasionally just visible to the naked eye. It would seem
that in these circumstances the fixed stars and constellations would have
more power to act than the new planets.

In my opinion, if Lilly and his contemporaries had known about these three
then they might well have tried them, as they did with the minor aspects,
but as with the latter in a very limited regard. In fact, I'm not sure what
they would have thought of them since they have no connection to the
ancient scheme of apparancies.

>> Please, let's don't throw out the baby with the bathwater! If we
>> accuse the modern psychological school of so doing, we must face the
>> same accusations from them, and have a better response than "if it
>> ain't broke don't fix it"! I say, "don't FIX it... add on to it...
>> create a new model, do whatever it takes. God put these bodies here
>> for a reason, and damn it, I think we owe it to the SCIENCE (ART??) to
>> find them a place in it!"
>> Rick
All I can say to this is, well go ahead and do it if you think that you
can. No-one so far as I know has dismissed them out of hand, those who
don't use them have tried very hard to adapt them and failed. I for one am
very ready to look at horaries where the astrologer thinks that the new
planets have operated on their own. If Rick, or anyone, can convince me
that these planets are really useful then I'll listen and I'm sure that
most others would, too.

>
> I am in complete agreement, with what you wrote, and it was, I must
>say, very well put! There are some things that the outers are vital for
>(computers and all electronics are definitely Uranian, for instance);
>let's keep a balance, otherwise I'm afraid there's a danger of
>dogmatism. Thanks for the message. DKR

I agree, let's keep a balance and 'definitely' is not a word that I would
use in regard to anything astrological. I certainly have never found Uranus
to work in this way and as others have said in this thread, Mercury is the
ruler as far as I can see. But there you have it, we each have our own
point of view and we are entitled to that. However, the traditional method
is one which, as RD says, stands on its own, it needs no further additions
(that is not to say that I would tell anyone not to use the
trans-Saturnians if they so wished). One thing I would say, though: if you
can't find the answer from the basic seven, there is something wrong with
your method. No judgement should be dependent upon anything other than these.

I think that the balance that I would like to see is a thorough
understanding of the scheme before we start to introduce more modern
notions. It seems to me that to do otherwise is very foolish and this
century demonstrates just how much damage can be done in the name of
progress. Rigorous study of the basics is essential before proceeding to
develop a craft which has stood for a thousand years, succeeded and
survived without we clever people.

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread: Event or Horary...any suggestions?
From: CAFretts@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 06:51:12 -0400 (EDT)

Hello!

I'm new to this list and am enjoying all the postings. You're quite a
prolific group :^). I am looking for your opinions on how best to approach a
request by a friend of mine. He is a lawyer and former judge and is now
planning on running for mayor of the town where he lives. The election is a
ways off - May 1999. He asked me to take a look at the charts and let him
know what I thought. He did not really ask the question in a true Horary
sense which is why I'm making this inquiry of you.

Along with looking at his natal chart, transits and progressions, and solar
return, would you look to an event chart for the time of the start of the
mayoral election or would you suggest he ask a horary question?

All suggestions will be appreciated!

Regards,
Carole (Fretts) Bouchard




Thread: Where is the astrologer?
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:55:25 +0930

At 03:33 PM 16/08/97 -0700, you wrote:

IF YOU WASH DISHES AND DO WINDOWS - I'LL SEND YOU MY ADDRESS!!
cheers.


>Yes, if I'm judging my own question I'm 1st AND 7th house.
>
>I'm a self-employed astrologer; that is, I'm my own boss, so I'm actually
>1st and 7th and 10th.
>
>I also sweep the floor of my office & handle the phone, so I'm 1st and 7th
>and 10th and 6th.
>
>By judging charts I am constantly teaching myself things, so I am 1st & 7th
>& 10th & 6th & 9th.
>
>Some of my astrological work is done as an employee of my own company, that
>is 6th from the 10th, so I'm 1st & 7th & 10th & 6th & 9th & 3rd.
>
>I write up some of my work under a nom-de-plume, so I'm.........kinda
>multi-faceted, eh?
>
>If Saturn is in the 7th, the astrologer is affected whether he is 1st or
>7th house, as Saturn in the 7th afflicts the 1st by opposition.
>
>Best regards, John Frawley
>
>The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>
>
>


Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:22:17 -0400

RD wrote:

> Hi again...
>
> In response to Jonathon's commentary, I applaud you on your
> ingenuity!! I have generally been very pleased with the classical
> significators, and in the main, use only them in my horary and natal
> work.
>
> However... I think it would be as inequitable to discard the
> modern
> planets will-he-nill-he, as it is for modern astrology to discard the
> classical techniques we all find so helpful, accurate and
> enlightening.
>
> Having been very interested in Medical Astrology, I find that the
> transaturnians are invaluable in diagnosing medical conditions. I
> have
> NOT found many of the ancient techniques so satisfying, but I continue
>
> to test them where I can.
>
> I think we all need to remember that God put the transaturnians
> there for a reason, and we would be remiss as Astrologers to not find
> an adequate and accurate way to make use of them. I'm NOT saying that
>
> we should insert these square pegs into the round holes of classical
> astrology... the system is complete as it stands and should NOT be
> tampered with. However, we modern day astrologers do have perhaps a
> duty to continue the research that our Ancient forbears began. I can
> only offer my opinion here, but I feel that if Lilly were here today,
> he'd find a way to use'em. (I say much the same thing to purist
> classical musicians, "If Bach were here today I'm sure he'd be using
> synthesizers and MIDI!")
>
> Please, let's don't throw out the baby with the bathwater! If we
> accuse the modern psychological school of so doing, we must face the
> same accusations from them, and have a better response than "if it
> ain't broke don't fix it"! I say, "don't FIX it... add on to it...
> create a new model, do whatever it takes. God put these bodies here
> for a reason, and damn it, I think we owe it to the SCIENCE (ART??) to
>
> find them a place in it!"
>
> Just a thought....
>
> Pax et Bonum...
>
> Rick

I am in complete agreement, with what you wrote, and it was, I must
say, very well put! There are some things that the outers are vital for
(computers and all electronics are definitely Uranian, for instance);
let's keep a balance, otherwise I'm afraid there's a danger of
dogmatism. Thanks for the message. DKR


Thread: Where is the astrologer?
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:33:50 -0700 (PDT)

Yes, if I'm judging my own question I'm 1st AND 7th house.

I'm a self-employed astrologer; that is, I'm my own boss, so I'm actually
1st and 7th and 10th.

I also sweep the floor of my office & handle the phone, so I'm 1st and 7th
and 10th and 6th.

By judging charts I am constantly teaching myself things, so I am 1st & 7th
& 10th & 6th & 9th.

Some of my astrological work is done as an employee of my own company, that
is 6th from the 10th, so I'm 1st & 7th & 10th & 6th & 9th & 3rd.

I write up some of my work under a nom-de-plume, so I'm.........kinda
multi-faceted, eh?

If Saturn is in the 7th, the astrologer is affected whether he is 1st or
7th house, as Saturn in the 7th afflicts the 1st by opposition.

Best regards, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk



Thread: Interesting chart
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 07:36:12 +0930

>
WHAT A RELIEF!!!! I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER KNOWING I GOT THE WRONG ANSWER FROM
A WRONG CHART --- HAVE TO GO --- MUST HAVE A LOOK AT THE NEW CHART!!! bye

At 08:31 PM 16/08/97 BST, you wrote:
>I have a terrible confession to make, the time on the chart is wrong; it
wasn't 3:45 as I was initially led to believe but closer to 11am
>I was told 10 am today, but I know it was after 10:30, so this remains a
bit of a guess, but 11am is closer than 3:45
>sorry
>
>Jon

>>Thanks, Brave Soul, for sending your thoughts on the interesting chart. Many
>>of your words are in my notes - but nothing so imaginative and creative. I
>>also tried a religious angle but couldn't imagine the local vicar doing
>>anthing remotely resembling an incredible event. I thought about foreign
>>uni students, international lawmongers, world-wide sporting events and even
>>considered the birth of an international racehorse and the sinking of a
>>foreign ship.
>>
>>Please, please - pretty please - tell me what was the incredible event.
>>(Gemini Curiousity again!).
>>
>> At 09:13 AM 15/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>At 06:54 PM 8/13/97 BST, you wrote:
>>>>I once showed a chart blind to Geoffrey Cornelius and he not only told me
>>>the circumstances leading up to the event but also the sexual act involved.
>>>V embarrassing and way out of my league. But I chanced upon the chart of an
>>>extrordinary event today (no
>>>> sex involved this time, sorry) and wondered if folks in this group would
>>>like to sharpen their deductive powers on it. Time is about 3:45pm in
>>>London on 12/8/97. (Which I believe in American, for reasons I'll never
>>>understand, is 8/12/97). I won't say m
>>>>or
>>>>cheers
>>>>Jon
>>>>
>>>OK. I'll take a swing at it.
>>>
>>>Situation involves air travel, legal proceeding, safe haven and death of a
>>>family member.
>>>
>>>Best I can tell, at least two people traveled on an aircraft from a
>>>far-away foreign country to UK because they were in fear of their lives and
>>>seeking asylum. At least one survived and applied for asylum; at least one
>>>other died violently near to arrival at destination. The deceased was a
>>>family member of the survivor. The survivor's asylum claim/status has been
>>>denied by a tribunal, has come under appeal, and he is in danger of
>>>deportation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>


Thread: Interesting chart
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:31:09 BST

I have a terrible confession to make, the time on the chart is wrong; it wasn't 3:45 as I was initially led to believe but closer to 11am
I was told 10 am today, but I know it was after 10:30, so this remains a bit of a guess, but 11am is closer than 3:45
sorry

Jon

>Thanks, Brave Soul, for sending your thoughts on the interesting chart. Many
>of your words are in my notes - but nothing so imaginative and creative. I
>also tried a religious angle but couldn't imagine the local vicar doing
>anthing remotely resembling an incredible event. I thought about foreign
>uni students, international lawmongers, world-wide sporting events and even
>considered the birth of an international racehorse and the sinking of a
>foreign ship.
>
>Please, please - pretty please - tell me what was the incredible event.
>(Gemini Curiousity again!).
>
> At 09:13 AM 15/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 06:54 PM 8/13/97 BST, you wrote:
>>>I once showed a chart blind to Geoffrey Cornelius and he not only told me
>>the circumstances leading up to the event but also the sexual act involved.
>>V embarrassing and way out of my league. But I chanced upon the chart of an
>>extrordinary event today (no
>>> sex involved this time, sorry) and wondered if folks in this group would
>>like to sharpen their deductive powers on it. Time is about 3:45pm in
>>London on 12/8/97. (Which I believe in American, for reasons I'll never
>>understand, is 8/12/97). I won't say m
>>>or
>>>cheers
>>>Jon
>>>
>>OK. I'll take a swing at it.
>>
>>Situation involves air travel, legal proceeding, safe haven and death of a
>>family member.
>>
>>Best I can tell, at least two people traveled on an aircraft from a
>>far-away foreign country to UK because they were in fear of their lives and
>>seeking asylum. At least one survived and applied for asylum; at least one
>>other died violently near to arrival at destination. The deceased was a
>>family member of the survivor. The survivor's asylum claim/status has been
>>denied by a tribunal, has come under appeal, and he is in danger of
>>deportation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



Thread: International Congress Agenda for September 1997
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: 16 Aug 97 18:44:32 +0200

INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS AGENDA
=============================

Please feel free to copy and publish this information!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
5 - 7 September 1997 - 29th Astrological Association of Great Britain's Yearly
Conference "The Rhythms of the Sky", Royal Agricultural College, Cirencester,
England, with Graham Boston, Bernadette Brady (Australia), Nicholas Campion,
Ronnie Dreyer (USA), John Frawley, Roy Gillett, Darrelyn Gunzburg (Australia),
Robert Hand (USA), Charles Harvey, Robin Heath, Peta High, Ken Irving (USA),
Eve Jackson, Dawne Kovan, Maurice McCann, Frank McGillion, Gary Parkinson,
Dietrich Pessin (USA), Lindsay Radermacher, Melanie Reinhart, Barbara Schermer
(USA), Rudolf Smit (The Netherlands), Erin Sullivan. Info: tel.
44-171-700-3746, fax 44-171-700-6479. Email:
astrological.association@zetnet.co.uk URL:
http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/index.html

5 - 7 September 1997 - Edmonton Astrological Society 20th Anniversary
Conference, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, to celebrate 20 years of EAS and 10
years of the annual Alberta Connections Conference, with Dennis Harness, Paul
Hewit, Donna Van Toen, Martha Jones, Dayel Kirk, Chris McRae, Inge Lohse and
Liz Swoboda. Info: Alexandera McPherson, 16008 - 101 Street, Edmonton, AB,
Canada T5X 5B4, E-Mail: dmals@compusmart.ab.ca URL:
http://www.compusmart.ab.ca/dmals/eas.htm

5 - 7 September 1997 - 9th Asian Astrologers' Congress, Dhaka, Bangladesh.
Info: Dr. Md. Anisul Haque, Bangladesh National Astrologers' Federation, 24/4
Chamely Bagh, Shantinagar, Dhaka-1217, Bangladesh. Phone 880-2407709, Fax
880-29552157.

20 - 21 September 1997 - The Central New York Astrology Conference, Painted
Post, NY, USA, with Louis Acker, Ron Bippus, Toni Imhoff, Sophia Mason, Donna
VanToen and Henry Weingarten. Info: Phone 1-607-962-8761, Email:
cwise@onlineimage.com

30 Sept. - 6 October 1997 - Sixth International Urania Congress "The Path to
Sophia: the Rainbow Bridge"; cruise: Moscow-Volga River-Onega and Ladoga
lakes-St.Petersburg, Russia. (English translations) Info: The Urania Magazine,
tel/fax: 7-095-924-7124, e-mail: urania@antonyan.msk.ru
=================================================================
Please send me all details
re international congress programs
as soon as the dates are known
to avoid double bookings
(names of speakers may be added later)

tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl
URL: http://www.astropro.com/features/conxions/
=================================================================

--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread: Astrology and the Seasons
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:16:49 +0900 (JST)

"Linda Reid" <canopus@webnet.com.au> wrote:

>I'm constantly amazed by this "find a handy book to read from" approach to
>talks and lectures - why not try doing something original like writing and
>presenting your own material.

Hello Linda,

Does asking for reading suggestions from others does preclude original work?
Dunno 'bout you but for me reading the works of others stimulates the mental
juices, sparking off all kinds of ideas in different directions. I'm just in
the grips of a life-long obsession: I can never read too much (Merc/Plu
conj), there is always just one more book to read.

Neil


Thread: Interesting chart
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:16:37 +0930

Thanks, Brave Soul, for sending your thoughts on the interesting chart. Many
of your words are in my notes - but nothing so imaginative and creative. I
also tried a religious angle but couldn't imagine the local vicar doing
anthing remotely resembling an incredible event. I thought about foreign
uni students, international lawmongers, world-wide sporting events and even
considered the birth of an international racehorse and the sinking of a
foreign ship.

Please, please - pretty please - tell me what was the incredible event.
(Gemini Curiousity again!).

At 09:13 AM 15/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 06:54 PM 8/13/97 BST, you wrote:
>>I once showed a chart blind to Geoffrey Cornelius and he not only told me
>the circumstances leading up to the event but also the sexual act involved.
>V embarrassing and way out of my league. But I chanced upon the chart of an
>extrordinary event today (no
>> sex involved this time, sorry) and wondered if folks in this group would
>like to sharpen their deductive powers on it. Time is about 3:45pm in
>London on 12/8/97. (Which I believe in American, for reasons I'll never
>understand, is 8/12/97). I won't say m
>>or
>>cheers
>>Jon
>>
>OK. I'll take a swing at it.
>
>Situation involves air travel, legal proceeding, safe haven and death of a
>family member.
>
>Best I can tell, at least two people traveled on an aircraft from a
>far-away foreign country to UK because they were in fear of their lives and
>seeking asylum. At least one survived and applied for asylum; at least one
>other died violently near to arrival at destination. The deceased was a
>family member of the survivor. The survivor's asylum claim/status has been
>denied by a tribunal, has come under appeal, and he is in danger of
>deportation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Thread: Where is the Astrologer?
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 08:46:57 -0400

At 05:09 AM 8/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>In his reply to Miriam Laister re. the house sale Frank Ernest wrote:
>
>>You did ask the question, so
>>you are the proper querent, First House, Ascendant and Ascendant ruler (as
>>well as Seventh Astrologer).
>
>
>Frank, I'm not sure that the seventh house represents the astrologer where
>the astrologer is asking the question. Where the astrologer answers a
>question then he or she is certainly seen in the seventh since there is a
>business transaction in progress between the querent (first house) and the
>astrologer (seventh). If the astrologer is the querent I don't think he can
>be in two places at once.
>
>Am I missing something?

Please consider that, in this case, the querent and the Astrologer are two
different roles. I suggest that a person can act in two different
capacities at the same time without having to be in different physical
locations.

A hypothetical question: If Saturn had been found in the Seventh, would the
chart have been radical?

>You'll see we agree on the signification in the rest of this question from
>my posting yesterday.
>
Yes, I did. I suspect Miriam was trying to be objective about the sale of
the house. I became concerned when she orphaned her poor daughter and
eliminated herself from the astrological scenery. :)
Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Modern planets as significators
From: aselzion@ix.netcom.com (RD) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:01:55 -0500 (CDT)

Hi again...

In response to Jonathon's commentary, I applaud you on your
ingenuity!! I have generally been very pleased with the classical
significators, and in the main, use only them in my horary and natal
work.

However... I think it would be as inequitable to discard the modern
planets will-he-nill-he, as it is for modern astrology to discard the
classical techniques we all find so helpful, accurate and enlightening.

Having been very interested in Medical Astrology, I find that the
transaturnians are invaluable in diagnosing medical conditions. I have
NOT found many of the ancient techniques so satisfying, but I continue
to test them where I can.

I think we all need to remember that God put the transaturnians
there for a reason, and we would be remiss as Astrologers to not find
an adequate and accurate way to make use of them. I'm NOT saying that
we should insert these square pegs into the round holes of classical
astrology... the system is complete as it stands and should NOT be
tampered with. However, we modern day astrologers do have perhaps a
duty to continue the research that our Ancient forbears began. I can
only offer my opinion here, but I feel that if Lilly were here today,
he'd find a way to use'em. (I say much the same thing to purist
classical musicians, "If Bach were here today I'm sure he'd be using
synthesizers and MIDI!")

Please, let's don't throw out the baby with the bathwater! If we
accuse the modern psychological school of so doing, we must face the
same accusations from them, and have a better response than "if it
ain't broke don't fix it"! I say, "don't FIX it... add on to it...
create a new model, do whatever it takes. God put these bodies here
for a reason, and damn it, I think we owe it to the SCIENCE (ART??) to
find them a place in it!"

Just a thought....

Pax et Bonum...

Rick

Thread: Via Combusta
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:54:16 -0400

Dorothy and Alexander Kovach wrote:

> Thank you for the facinating fixed star info on those I know.
>
> I hope you don't mind me asking you one question. Is it true that the
> via
> combustia, 15Libra-15Scorpio, has moved to Sagittarius? I have not
> seen that
> area as outstanding for firey stuff as it should be. Shouldn't Antares
> be in
> the via combustia????
>
> The Via Combusta is a major study in itself - it certainly could
> originally have related to an area of fiery stars - mid-Scales to
> mid-Scorpion is now about (tropical) 19 Scorpio to 14 Sag; the
> interesting thing here is that although Antares (now almost 10 Sag)
> has a high score in a study I did of fires, the area of Yed Prior,
> delta Ophiuchi (an all-purpose nasty at 2-3 Sag) is even higher! But
> the champs in the fire department (no pun intended) are a couple of
> degrees in Aries, and one at the end of Cancer...so I can't really
> tell from this whether this was the source of the Via Combusta.
> Anyway, it supposedly works as the area of tropical 15 Libra to 15
> Scorpio; there are harsh stars here, especially those in Corvus, the
> Crow, but this doesn't mean much, as there are harsh "Vias" in other
> places - mid Taurus to mid Gemini, for instance, which includes Algol,
> the Hyades and the Pleiades. I don't know if this helps, but I could
> fill a book on this subject alone, so I'd better stop! Love, DKR





>



>



>
>
>




Thread: Amy Wroe Bechtel
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:20:57 -0700

Dear Jonathon and others interested in the where abouts of Amy Wroe Bechtel,

I just received this reply from her husband to querie as to the time of Amy
disappeared. A chart for the time of abduction is below. A website with a
picture of Amy Wroe Bechtel is http://www.aspentree.com/amy/

Dorothy

>Hello Dorothy,
>The time Amy was last reported seen was at 2:00 in Lander on July 24th.
>Her car was reportedly seen where she left it at 3:00. She was reported
>missing at 10:30 pm. The last time I saw her was 9:30am. If you need any
>other info please call or email me here.
>
>Steve Bechtel, Amy's husband
>
>----------

> Amy Wroe Bechtel last seen - natal

     24 Jul 1997
     2.00 P.M. (6)
     108.44 WEST
     42.50 NORTH
     08H  55M  22S
     Regiomontanus
                 15 VIR             11 LEO             02 CAN
                     *        ME27Leo *                *
               NN22Vir        VE01Vir *
                        *             *             *
     11 LIB                           *                            29 TAU
          *                *          *          *                *
              *                       *SU01Leo                *
        MA17Lib   *           *       *PF08Can*           *
                      *               *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                              *               *
                             *                 *
     03 SCO ******************                 ******************* 03 TAU
                             *                 *
                              *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                      *               *               *
                  *           *NE28CprR*      *           *  SA20Ari
              *  PL02SagR     UR06AquR*                       *
          *                *          *          *                *
     29 SCO                           *                            11 ARI
                        *             *             *  MO06Ari
                                      *                SN22Pis
                     *                * JU18AquR       *
                 02 CPR             11 AQU             15 PIS



Resent-Message-Id: <199708132008.NAA15258@mail1.halcyon.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <cwiggers@mail.halcyon.com>
Resent-from: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
Resent-to: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
Resent-date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:50:12 +7
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:11:29 -0700
X-Sender: treelife@mail.easynet.co.uk (Unverified)
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)
Subject: Where is amy Wroe Bechtel?

Went jogging on the loop road from Lander, Wyoming on the afternoon of 24th.
July 1997.
No exact time given on police notice. 5 ft. 4 in., 110 lbs, blue eyes, blond
shoulder length hair.

Since there was no exact last time given I put the question as a horary
after seeing the poster for about the twentieth time. 7.08 p.m. (+6), 6th.
August 1997, 111W40, 45N40, Asc 15 Capricorn.

The husband was interviewed by police but released and there was talk that
the search would soon get national coverage. Having now got back to England
I've lost track of any results but offer the chart for people to follow. Not
having a set of tables with me I have had to wait until now to look at the
chart. There is a contact for the police department if anyone does have
information on 307-332-5611 and I think there was an email address but I
don't seem to have kept it.

The chart doesn't seem very optimistic to me. First house signifies Amy,
therefore Capricorn, the Moon and Saturn. Moon in later degrees (+ void of
course) and joined to Venus (ruler of the fourth) in the eighth. (Lilly p.151)
Saturn in the third shows she went out in the local neighbourhood. Saturn
retrograde and in fall is bad news.

What do others think and is there any news?

Regards,
Jonathon


>


Thread: Virus hoax
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:24:03

I thought all members of the list would be interested in the following.
Andy very kindly sent me these details after I did what was expected of me
and I posted the original warning to everyone I know!

I will not be passing this on for the reasons mentioned below, but if
anyone would care to let Rob Hand and Hindsight know, it only needs one of us.

Sincerely

Sue

>Return-Path: <andy@earthsea.demon.co.uk>
>Delivered-To: sueward@easynet.co.uk
>X-Sender: earthsea@pop3.demon.co.uk
>Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:40:44 +0100
>To: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk>
>From: Andy Gray <andy@earthsea.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Avoid the Virus!!!!!
>
>Hi Sue,
>
>For your information, forward as you see fit ...
>
>There is yet another kind of virus, unfortunately. It is the general
>misinformation virus. Both of the virii you forwarded are, I believe,
>benign although there is some scant truth deep inside. The effect of this
>type of virus tends to be paranoia, blockage of email gateways by messages
>alerting, countering, worrying and reassuring (all at the same time). The
>other effect is that it prompts knee-jerk reactions and generally disrupts
>normal working :-(
>
>There is a reference to attachments in email messages. Email messages
>cannot do anything by themselves as they are just text. They can tell
>someone to do something that could be destructive but that would be a
>manual operation. On the other hand, they can act as carriers where
>attachments are involved. MSOffice documents (Word, Excel etc.) can contain
>programmed macros which can deliver a 'payload'.
>
>However, there are a number of virus protection suites around covering all
>known (at the time of release) virii in executable and embedded forms. It
>is prudent to ensure that your machine is adequately protected.
>
>I enclose part of an internal advice page on the subject. Naturally, I have
>to add a disclaimer to this forwarded advice stating that I nor my company
>can be held responsible for the advice below, it is passed on in good faith.
>
>AOL4FREE - 23/04/97
>
>There has been much confusion about this particular virus alert which has
>been circulating by e-mail recently. The facts are these:
>
>1. A hoax message (or chain letter), was spread via email and usenet
>newsgroups, first surfacing in March of this year. Numerous versions of the
>alert message exist. In some cases, it claims the virus resides in an
>attached binary file called AOL4FREE.COM; in other cases, the alert claims
>the email itself is the virus. Some version are very similar to the "PENPAL
>GREETINGS!" hoax. The hoax claimed that "within seconds of opening [the
>email] a window appeared and began to display my files that were being
>deleted".
>
>Like other hoaxes it is important to point out that a user cannot be
>infected or damaged simply by the subject line of an email. An executable
>attachment to an email will not 'run' automatically.
>
>2. AOL4FREE.COM is a program which really exists, it was created and
>distributed to allow illegal free time on America Online. A college student
>wrote the program after discovering how to exploit AOL's network; he was
>found guilty on a federal charge of computer fraud.
>
>3. A genuine AOL4FREE.COM trojan horse program appeared a few weeks after
>the hoax message, probably created as a response to the original hoax
>warning in an attempt to confuse computer users. The program can delete
>data from a computer's hard disk. However, the program is not a virus and
>cannot spread on its own - you would need to download or be sent a copy and
>then execute it. It is also very rare - Rob Rosenberger claims that the
>CIAC have confirmed only six cases worldwide where the actual Trojan has
>deleted files.
>
>Dr Solomon's have released an extra.drv file for the genuine AOL4FREE.COM
>trojan. We strongly recommend that BT people do not download this file for
>two reasons:
>
>It is very unlikely that anyone in the company will ever encounter this
file.
>
>If you download the extra.drv file for this trojan, you will overwrite the
>extra.drv file which WinGuard 7.70 uses to catch the WM.CAP virus, which is
>more of a problem in BT than AOL4FREE.COM will ever be.
>
>Information from Dr Solomon's, Rob Rosenberger and CIAC.
>
>Virus Hoax: "PENPAL GREETINGS!" - Updated 01/04/97
>
>The PENPAL GREETINGS hoax is very common with several variants doing the
>rounds:
>
>This bears many of the hallmarks of a classic virus hoax - destruction of
>the hard disk, transmission by e-mail message (impossible unless the
>message has an attachment), vague references to the internet, threats of
>worldwide destruction of computers, bad punctuation and the request to
>forward the message to as many people as possible.
>
>The Penpal Greetings hoax has re-surfaced during February and March 1997. I
>suspect that the reason for its re-appearance is the similarity of the
>supposed effects of the Penpal Greetings "virus" to the genuine new Macro
>Virus "ShareFun".
>
>Late in March 1997, a new variant of the hoax began to circulate which
begins:
>
>"This information was received this morning from IBM, please share it with
>anyone that might access the Internet:
>If anyone receives mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! please delete it
>WITHOUT reading it!! This is a warning for all Internet users ...."
>
>The reference to IBM may be an attempt to give credibility to the message,
>or it may be that someone in IBM mistakenly forwarded it.
>
>Regards
>
>Andy Gray
>
>At 19:38 14/08/97, Ellen Black wrote:
>>>Return-Path: <ProjectHindsight@compuserve.com>
>>>Delivered-To: SUEWARD@EASYNET.CO.UK
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:00:44 -0400
>>>From: Ellen Black <ProjectHindsight@compuserve.com>
>>>Subject: Fwd: Avoid the Virus!!!!!
>>>To: BlindCopyReceiver:;@compuserve.com
>>>Content-Disposition: inline

sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread: Astrology and the Seasons
From: Stephen James <smj@premier1.net> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:16:33 -0700 (PDT)


I'm sorry I cant recommend the books you may be looking for, but I must
caution you on an often-overlooked issue.

Many astrology books create fine imagery of the signs to the seasons,
ignoring the fact that the Southern Hemisphere doesnt see the imagery the
same way. The Sun/Aries/Spring analogy is fine here in the north, but in
the southern hemisphere it doesnt cut it.
The seasons do reflect phases of cycles, but you may finda deeper insight
in
The Lunation Cycle by Rudhyar.


Stephen James
Astral Engineer

*** There is really no astrological evidence that science is anything more
than a medieval superstition***


Thread: I'm ba-a-a-k!
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:36:46 -0400

Hi Carol,
Let it be known to all & sundry, I am back home at
ye-stars@ix.netcom.com, and I hope & trust that messages can get
through. Love, DKR


Thread: Astrology and the Seasons
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:19:15 +0900 (JST)

Dear All,

As I have mentioned before, a professional aromatherapist and I are giving a
talk on astrology and aromatherapy. As a base we plan to use the round of
the seasons, linking in with the oils, colours, energy, astrological
principles etc of each season. Most of the material I have is piecemeal and
scattered throughout many tomes - does anyone out there have any
recommendations on books linking astrology and the seasons or good chapters
in other astrology books?

Thanks in advance,

Neil


Thread: Interesting chart
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:13:09 -0400

At 06:54 PM 8/13/97 BST, you wrote:
>I once showed a chart blind to Geoffrey Cornelius and he not only told me
the circumstances leading up to the event but also the sexual act involved.
V embarrassing and way out of my league. But I chanced upon the chart of an
extrordinary event today (no
> sex involved this time, sorry) and wondered if folks in this group would
like to sharpen their deductive powers on it. Time is about 3:45pm in
London on 12/8/97. (Which I believe in American, for reasons I'll never
understand, is 8/12/97). I won't say m
>or
>cheers
>Jon
>
OK. I'll take a swing at it.

Situation involves air travel, legal proceeding, safe haven and death of a
family member.

Best I can tell, at least two people traveled on an aircraft from a
far-away foreign country to UK because they were in fear of their lives and
seeking asylum. At least one survived and applied for asylum; at least one
other died violently near to arrival at destination. The deceased was a
family member of the survivor. The survivor's asylum claim/status has been
denied by a tribunal, has come under appeal, and he is in danger of
deportation.







Thread: Where is the Astrologer?
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:09:29 -0700

>In his reply to Miriam Laister re. the house sale Frank Ernest wrote:

>You did ask the question, so
>you are the proper querent, First House, Ascendant and Ascendant ruler (as
>well as Seventh Astrologer).


Frank, I'm not sure that the seventh house represents the astrologer where
the astrologer is asking the question. Where the astrologer answers a
question then he or she is certainly seen in the seventh since there is a
business transaction in progress between the querent (first house) and the
astrologer (seventh). If the astrologer is the querent I don't think he can
be in two places at once.

Am I missing something?

You'll see we agree on the signification in the rest of this question from
my posting yesterday.

All the best,
Jonathon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Thread: Modern Planets as significators
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:09:28 -0700 (PDT)

Jonathon wrote:
>
>> Computers, after all, are only high tech ways of doing mathematics ...

>
Angela wrote:

> So, Mercury would, in fact, be the planet to use?
>(CAp78 Quality of men and professions)




Yes, I think this is a good example of the approach that works.

Cheers,
Jonathon
>


Thread: Interesting chart
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:51:23 BST

thanks for having a go Vyri. (I feel like some clown conducting a gameshow now!) but not the situation I was after. I'll email it privately to you if you like

cheers

Jon

>As Pluto is right on the Asc. degree, Death and money of the partner are at
>the forfront and personal changes are directly coming up for the querent. The
>Moon is ruler of the 8th house cusp so I would consider money by an
>inheritance/ property/ as moon is lately seperated from Saturn in the 4th.
>Money gained by a partner (Moon trines jupiter in the Libra decanate of
>Aquarius)left by a partner, or expected from a lately deceased older person?
>



Thread: My Son...
From: spicy <spicy@nyct.net> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 04:27:55 -0400

i've been having major problems with him.....dealing with him....he
resenting authority
and being 18...problems with drugs..for a short time...that is over i
think
but i'd like to know whether he'll make something of himself and we'll
get along better
soon...
question was asked at 4:21 edt Flushing , NY
on 8/15/97

any insight into him...would help

not sure you need this...but his birth info is 1/21/79 11:00 am lake
success ny est

thank you all so much... i'm at my wits end



Thread: Job Offer
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:58:23 -0400

Hi, Sandra,

>> At 12:38 a.m. on Thursday August 14, 1997 (80:31N, 43:28W) I asked "Will
I be offered a job at or after my interview on Friday?" 13 degrees Scorpio
was rising. Mars was in the 12th house (conjunct Chiron) at 0 Scorpio.
Chiron sextiles the Sun at 24 degrees Leo in the 10th house conjunct Juno.

Something is wrong with your data. The Sun cannot be in the 10th house just
after midnight.
You must have meant 12:38 pm, and was it EDT or what? Apparently EST or
CDT, to get 13 Sco 51 rising. Are you sure that's proper? Where do you
live, specifically? You also seemed to have reversed your longitude and
latitude.

BTW, Chiron and Juno have nothing to do with anything. Ignore them.

This may be a good chart for testing out a VOC Moon, among other things.
What was the outcome?


Allen

Thread: Solar Fire 4
From: aikido@juno.com (Sue Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:33:07 EDT

Dear Fellow Listers:

I just installed Solar Fire 4 and IT IS LIKE HAVING A GRAND PIANO WHEELED
INTO THE LIVING. ROOM !!!

Wow, the page designs, the colors, the capacity it has to be so much
smarter than I am. It is SO FUN. Can't wait to be worth of it in my
talents.

This is just an editorial note from a very enthusiastic new user.

Best to all

Sue Miller
aikido@juno.com

Thread: Modern Planets as significators
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:45:35 -0400

At 09:11 AM 8/13/97 -0700, you wrote:

[Some deleted for space]

>However, I have found that using traditional rulerships does give the most
>consistent results and I therefore now try to avoid using the modern
>planets. The exception seems to be in charts of national or international
>importance where they often add a significant secondary desription (note
>secondary).

I agree. My experience is similar to yours. I started out a bundle of years
ago doing natal charts. What I discovered was that I didn't need to use
Ura, Nep, and Plu to give a competent and professional reading. (Matter of
fact, some of my clients became more confused than informed by including
them.) A complicating factor was the wide divergence of opinion on the
proper interpretations of Ura, Nep, and Plu. None seemed to reflect
anything more than various esoteric opinions, or rigidly astronomical ones
with reassignment of house rulers. With event and horary charts, I lean
toward your view, that of secondary significance. So, I read them now for
generalized trends rather than specifics or something not found elsewhere.
>
[Some deleted for space]
>
>The beauty of Lilly's method is that it works and I subscribe to the school
>of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Where I come up against a "modern"
>subject in a chart I have found it more useful to find the principle which
>is being expressed and the appropriate significator rather than use a modern
>planet.

Agree again! You're correct in that an airplane is just a faster, higher
"ship", a computer is a faster calculator tool. (I think Lilly would have
been proud to know we figured that out.) :)
>
>Hope this is of use - others may wish to continue the subject.

Well-said, Jonathon!

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: UPS Strike
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:09:28 -0400

At 02:21 AM 8/13/97 -05, you wrote:
>Hi:
>
> Have been observing comments about the UPS strike and doing the
>chart for Washington, D.C. The home office of UPS is in
>Atlanta, and that is where the decision was made to strike -
>that is where management and most of the employees are centered.
>
> It seems to me that Atlanta would be the appropriate place to
>use rather than Washington.
>
> Rowena
>Rowena Wall, Professional Astrologer
>http://www.starflash.com/starstuff
>http://www.starflash.com/zodiac
>Discover Ancient Healing Secrets
>http://www.essoil.com/LynnGroup/members/Starstuff
>
UPS did not decide to strike, the Teamsters Union leadership made that
decision.

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Job Offer
From: Sandra Bartman <sandee@golden.net> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:14:40 -0400 (EDT)

To Readers:

At 12:38 a.m. on Thursday August 14, 1997 (80:31N, 43:28W) I asked "Will I
be offered a job at or after my interview on Friday?" 13 degrees Scorpio
was rising. Mars was in the 12th house (conjunct Chiron) at 0 Scorpio.
Chiron sextiles the Sun at 24 degrees Leo in the 10th house conjunct Juno.
The sun is also conjunct the MC. It doesn't look like Mars is sextile the
Sun yet. The Moon was in the second house at 1 Cap trine the Sun. Do you
think I will get the job?

From,
Sandra
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with
all you mind. This is the first and greatest commmandment. And the second
is like it: Love your Neighbour as Yourself. All the Law and the Phrophets
hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
>From Sandra e-mail sandee@golden.net
end


Thread: Modern Planets as significators
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 04:15:26 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/14/97 00:44

Hi Jonathon,

>was a point about what to use for signifying computers etc. (I think it may
>have been Angela re. the Manchester shooting).

Yup indeedy!!

> Computers, after all, are only high tech ways of doing mathematics ...

You are absolutely right, Jonathon, silly as it sounds, I never really
thought of it that way. So, Mercury would, in fact, be the planet to use?
(CAp78 Quality of men and professions)

>depth psychology and psychoanalysis are modern expressions for dealing with
>"diseases of the mind" which have always existed. Rocket travel and
>aeroplanes simply speed up the process but are essnetially describing a
>journey as did ships in Lilly's day.

>Hope this is of use - others may wish to continue the subject.

I find this an extremely useful insight. Thanks Jonathon.

Regards

Angela

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME


Thread: E-mail problem
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:03:00 -0400

Carol A. Wiggers wrote:

> Dear Diana,
> I am forwarding this letter for you from Anne Fryer. I also need to
> let you know that you have your address incorrect or your e-mail
> forms and people cannot e-mail you using it because they get back an
> error message.
> ```````````````
> here is how it appears to those on the list
> From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com>
> ```````````````````````````
> Love & Light
> Carol
>
> ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:52:44 +0930
> To: William_Lilly@halcyon.com
> From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net>
> Subject: Diana Rosenburg
>
> Diana, Please give e-mail address again - I have some charts for you.
> bye
>
> Dear Carol, Thanks for the message from Anne Fryer- please pass this
> on to everyone in case I have more trouble (I hope this goes thru!) --
> I have been on vacation, and since I am utterly computer-incompetent,
> my son set me up with my little laptop and this "default-user"
> address; most days things have been fine but these last two days (Mon
> night thru part of Tues) I couldn't get anything to go out and only
> sometimes was I able to get my messages; Tues night it began to work
> again -?? I don't know if this is part of the cause of Anne's problem,
> but I'm going back home tomorrow, so it will be ye-stars@ix.netcom.com
> again, and (I hope!) smooth sailing...tho with Merc doing it's little
> thing, and the Saturn station on my Sun (ruler 3rd), anything can
> happen...please ask people to let me know if they still get error
> messages after tomorrow. Thank you for letting me know! Luv, DKR




Thread: House Sale
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:57:22 -0400

At 08:20 AM 8/13/97, you wrote:
>Hi Everyone,
>
>My daughter phoned last night to say that after 18 months of trying to sell
>their family home the are starting negotiations to do so. At 8 01 pm ACST -
>9.30 12 Aug 97, Sellicks Beach 35s18 138e25 I asked the question "Will the
>house sale go through?". As I was asking the question on behalf of the
>seller I designated 1st to the seller and 7th to the buyer. Mercury the
>buyer is very well placed and the seller Jupiter is not. The buyer
>certainly calls the tune. The seller needs more room for a growing family.
>(Jupiter is not well placed).
>
>At first perusal I thought No, as there is no aspect between either the 1st
>and 7th or the 2nd and 8th rulers. The Moon is also unaspected. However the
>Moon at 0 Sag will go on to square the 7th ruler Mercury at 14 Virgo and
>then sextile Jupiter at 16 Aquarius, the ruler of the first. Is this
>translation of light? Is the square also saying no? If one uses Neptune as
>representing the 1st - the seller. then it is in the same triplicity as
>Mercury - the buyer and trine Venus the ruler of the buyer's money. Is this
>any help? Or am I clutching at straws? :-) The ruler of the buyer, Mercury
>also rules the 4th - the property. Does this help?
>
>Love from over here,
>Miriam
>--
I'm not confident of the perspective. May I suggest that the proper
question is, "Will my daughter sell her house?" It is a much different
question than, "Will the property be sold?" You did ask the question, so
you are the proper querent, First House, Ascendant and Ascendant ruler (as
well as Seventh Astrologer). If that is acceptable reasoning to you, then
your daughter is Fifth House, daughter's (seller) home (property) is
Eighth, potential buyer is 11th.











Thread: Interesting chart
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:54:17 BST

I once showed a chart blind to Geoffrey Cornelius and he not only told me the circumstances leading up to the event but also the sexual act involved. V embarrassing and way out of my league. But I chanced upon the chart of an extrordinary event today (no sex involved this time, sorry) and wondered if folks in this group would like to sharpen their deductive powers on it. Time is about 3:45pm in London on 12/8/97. (Which I believe in American, for reasons I'll never understand, is 8/12/97). I won't say more unless someone wants a clue.
cheers
Jon



Thread: UPS strike
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:49:46 -0400

At 10:58 PM 8/12/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello Frank:
> Of course, you do realize that there are almost as many U.S. charts as
>there are U.S. astrologers. That said, I'm happy to send you the
>coordinates of the one I like to work with, mostly because it seems to
>give pretty good results when major things happen. July 4, 1776, 2:17
>a.m LMT, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 39N58, 75W10, 7 Gemini 35 rising.

Hi, Shirley!

That's the one! Thanks! Yes, I know there are boucoup U.S. charts, but
that's the one I need! Thanks for including the rising degree so I can
check my calcs. (Saturn has been bugging me lately.) :)
>
>I have not looked at the strike chart in relation to the Aries and
>Cancer ingresses, but that's an excellent suggestion. However, there is
>a solar eclipse on September 1 at 9 Virgo 34, lighting up that already
>very hot Mercury, 2nd ruler, on the same degree. In company with Moon's
>final sextile to Mars in 6th, ruler of the 7th, it may herald some
>movement, especially on the question of the pension funds.
>
Now that I have THE U. S. chart, I am better able to understand what you're
referring to. I am interested in your judgment: do you think the strike
will continue to, and perhaps beyond, the solar eclipse date, or is there
any indication of settlement prior to that date?

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:18:38 -0400

At 03:55 PM 8/12/97 +0930, you wrote:
>Hi Frank
>Thank you for posting of the Manchester Shooting, it was very much
>appreciated. As I'm fairly new to this list as well as looking at event
>chart's. I am following this with great interest.
>I did send a posting before and mentioned that as the ruler of the 7th. is
>in the intercepted 9th., could the killer be hiding in a house or flat
>near a High School or college. The reason for saying this is that Mercury
>and Jupiter are in each others houses. Also I'm under the impression that
>a intercepted house could mean that the person is in hiding and can't get
>out. Am I correct in thinking this
> Thank you once again
> Regards June

Hi, June!

You may well be correct. My analysis of the incident was static and the
chart shows what happened. Applying mundane techniques, I did speculate
some into the future. As to Jupiter and Mercury occupying each other's
houses, I am not sure one can or should rely on that as a mutual reception.
The exchange one can rely on is mutual reception between planets as planets
are people and things. Houses are places. As real estate does not exchange
the location of people or things, houses cannot realign or exchange planets.

Intercepted signs generally indicate an enclosed place within a house.
Planets (people) in intercepted signs may or may not be there by choice.
The relationship of the intercepted planet with other planets and houses
will give indications of why this condition exists.

May I suggest that one should not infer too much from the chart and
analysis I posted? The question of where the killer (fugitive) might be is
better done through application of horary principles and techniques. Had I
been asked that question, I would have drawn up a chart for the time and
place of the question and proceeded accordingly with no reliance on the
incident chart.







Thread: Where is amy Wroe Bechtel?
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:11:29 -0700

Went jogging on the loop road from Lander, Wyoming on the afternoon of 24th.
July 1997.
No exact time given on police notice. 5 ft. 4 in., 110 lbs, blue eyes, blond
shoulder length hair.

Since there was no exact last time given I put the question as a horary
after seeing the poster for about the twentieth time. 7.08 p.m. (+6), 6th.
August 1997, 111W40, 45N40, Asc 15 Capricorn.

The husband was interviewed by police but released and there was talk that
the search would soon get national coverage. Having now got back to England
I've lost track of any results but offer the chart for people to follow. Not
having a set of tables with me I have had to wait until now to look at the
chart. There is a contact for the police department if anyone does have
information on 307-332-5611 and I think there was an email address but I
don't seem to have kept it.

The chart doesn't seem very optimistic to me. First house signifies Amy,
therefore Capricorn, the Moon and Saturn. Moon in later degrees (+ void of
course) and joined to Venus (ruler of the fourth) in the eighth. (Lilly p.151)
Saturn in the third shows she went out in the local neighbourhood. Saturn
retrograde and in fall is bad news.

What do others think and is there any news?

Regards,
Jonathon


Thread: Modern Planets as significators
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:11:47 -0700

Somewhere in the pile of email I've just read after a couple of weeks away
was a point about what to use for signifying computers etc. (I think it may
have been Angela re. the Manchester shooting).

This is a thorny point and one on which I have changed my mind since
becoming acquainted with traditional astrology.

When I started learning traditional astrology I was all in favour of using
modern rulerships for computers, psycholanalysis and anything else that
didn't exist in the seventeenth century.

However, I have found that using traditional rulerships does give the most
consistent results and I therefore now try to avoid using the modern
planets. The exception seems to be in charts of national or international
importance where they often add a significant secondary desription (note
secondary).

I think it's useful to consider Lilly's comments on the houses (p. 50 CA)
"There is nothing appertaining to the life of man in this world, which in
one way or other hath not relation to one of the twelve houses of heaven."

Now, I know that it's planets which have been discovered and not houses but
I think the principle is the same. Computers, after all, are only high tech
ways of doing mathematics that have been done for hundreds of years while
depth psychology and psychoanalysis are modern expressions for dealing with
"diseases of the mind" which have always existed. Rocket travel and
aeroplanes simply speed up the process but are essnetially describing a
journey as did ships in Lilly's day.

The beauty of Lilly's method is that it works and I subscribe to the school
of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Where I come up against a "modern"
subject in a chart I have found it more useful to find the principle which
is being expressed and the appropriate significator rather than use a modern
planet.

Hope this is of use - others may wish to continue the subject.

All the best,
Jonathon


Thread: Applying vs Separating Aspects
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:11:28 -0700

>In response to the posting reprinted below - I think we're off track by
going for a trial of strength.
Separating aspects show what has already happened while applying aspects
show what is going to happen.
Can't find the reference offhand but I'm sure it is somewhere in Christian
Astrology.

Regards,
Jonathon



Hello All,
>
>Which are 'stronger' applying or separating aspects?
>
>Or are applying aspects 'stronger' in some cases and not in others?
>
>Most of the material I have read does not go into this in great detail and
>one is left with the impression, generally, that applying aspects are
>'stronger' . However, I read in Charles Luntz's Vocational Guidance by
>Astrology (reprinted in "How to Use Vocational Astrology for Success in the
>Workplace" ed. by Noel Tyl (Llewellyn, 1992), p288 :
>
>"The aspect is stronger when separating than when forming."(Here he is
>referring to the transiting Moon and applying for a job.)
>
>How would the situation differ if I was going to buy a bike? Would I wait
>until just before the aspect [eg Ven(buy) sxt Mer (bike)] became exact or
>just after it became exact?
>
>As far as I know, in horary separating aspects are considered to be the past
>and do not really enter into consideration of the question except in a minor
>capacity [Correct me if i'm wrong - I'm sure you will:) ]
>
>Looking forward to any and all comments on this,
>
>Warmly,
>
>Neil
>
>
>
>
>
>


Thread: House Sale - Miriam's daughter
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:11:30 -0700

>Dear Miriam,

Some thoughts on the house sale question. Can you confirm you have an
ascendant of 19 Pisces?>


>My daughter phoned last night to say that after 18 months of trying to sell
>their family home the are starting negotiations to do so. At 8 01 pm ACST -
>9.30 12 Aug 97, Sellicks Beach 35s18 138e25 I asked the question "Will the
>house sale go through?". As I was asking the question on behalf of the
>seller I designated 1st to the seller and 7th to the buyer.

As I understand it the seller is your daughter so she would be signified by
the fifth house which represents your children, rather than the seventh house.
The eighth becomes the turned fourth and the second becomes the turned tenth
although the radical houses still retain some significance.

Your daughter is therefore signified by the Moon as ruler of the fifth and
the seller by Saturn as ruler of the eleventh (turned seventh). I think the
usual practice is to designate the first (or turned first, fifth in this
case) to the party whose interest is at heart rather than making them always
the buyer.

Mercury the buyer is very well placed and the seller Jupiter is not. The buyer
certainly calls the tune. The seller needs more room for a growing family.
(Jupiter is not well placed).
At first perusal I thought No, as there is no aspect between either the 1st
and 7th or the 2nd and 8th rulers.

See above.

The Moon is also unaspected. However the
Moon at 0 Sag will go on to square the 7th ruler Mercury at 14 Virgo and
then sextile Jupiter at 16 Aquarius, the ruler of the first.

The void of course Moon suggests that nothing much will happen although we
know that voc Moon will perform "somewhat" if placed in Sag (Pisces, Cancer
or Taurus).

Is this translation of light?

I don't think so. Translation of light means that the translating planet in
the chart is still separating from on planet while applying to the next.
That is not what is happening here.

Is the square also saying no?

Not necessarily, since the square is in signs of short ascension in the
Southern hemisphere which makes the square a sextile.
The key, it seems to me, is that the Moon makes no application to Saturn and
I suggest there is nothing else in the chart to mitigate this. The deal, in
opinion, will not proceed.

I queried a month or two back the latitude at which this adjustment can be
used (I always use it at 52N30) and I think someone answered from Adelaide
or Melbourne to say it operates there.


If one uses Neptune as
representing the 1st - the seller. then it is in the same triplicity as
Mercury - the buyer and trine Venus the ruler of the buyer's money. Is this
any help? Or am I clutching at straws?

I wouldn't use the modern planets - see separate posting on this subject.

:-) The ruler of the buyer, Mercury
also rules the 4th - the property. Does this help?

See above re. significators.

All the best,
Jonathon





Thread: Diana Rosenburg
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:52:44 +0930

Diana, Please give e-mail address again - I have some charts for you. bye

Thread: House Sale
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:20:08

Hi Everyone,

My daughter phoned last night to say that after 18 months of trying to sell
their family home the are starting negotiations to do so. At 8 01 pm ACST -
9.30 12 Aug 97, Sellicks Beach 35s18 138e25 I asked the question "Will the
house sale go through?". As I was asking the question on behalf of the
seller I designated 1st to the seller and 7th to the buyer. Mercury the
buyer is very well placed and the seller Jupiter is not. The buyer
certainly calls the tune. The seller needs more room for a growing family.
(Jupiter is not well placed).

At first perusal I thought No, as there is no aspect between either the 1st
and 7th or the 2nd and 8th rulers. The Moon is also unaspected. However the
Moon at 0 Sag will go on to square the 7th ruler Mercury at 14 Virgo and
then sextile Jupiter at 16 Aquarius, the ruler of the first. Is this
translation of light? Is the square also saying no? If one uses Neptune as
representing the 1st - the seller. then it is in the same triplicity as
Mercury - the buyer and trine Venus the ruler of the buyer's money. Is this
any help? Or am I clutching at straws? :-) The ruler of the buyer, Mercury
also rules the 4th - the property. Does this help?

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.


Thread: Applying vs Separating Aspects
From: Flemming Ravn Neft <nefts@uni-c.dk> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:09:11 +0200

Hello Neil.

You wrote:

> Which are 'stronger' applying or separating aspects?

Allow me to tell you how I see it these days, mentioning also that I
might learn
other practises, and that others probalby have different ways...

1) Natal charts.

Here I would find applying aspects "stronger" that separating,
especially if the
orbis is between 4 and 8 degrees.

Example:

10 Aqr Venus sqr 16 Tau Sun is stronger than 16 Aqr Venus sqr 10 Tau
Sun.

Why? If progressions are made, it will soon become clear that
progressively
the aspect will work in that persons life for more years, if it is
applying.
But one has to make ure that the 10 Aqr Venus is not going retrograde
withing
the first couple of progressive years, which would "undermine" the idea.

2) Transits

Exact and applying. It is like, I believe, that a Saturn transit is
strong when
coming close, but one get the feeling of relief when it passes. Say one
has a
natal Sun of 20 Aries. If direct Saturn comes from 19 dgr Aries towards
the Sun,
it will feel "stronger" than when in a passed position of 21 dgr Aries.
If Saturn becomes retrograde at 21 dgr and moves backwards towards the
Sun at
20 degrees, it would count as an applying aspect.

Why? IMHO the ado or effecrt of an applying transit is high. When Saturn
for
example is applying in an conj. aspect with the Sun, the intuitive one
may be
aware of it from a distance of 3 or 4 degrees (applying). At 2 degrees
the
effects become highly ostensible/conspicuous, ad 1 degree more and a 0
degrees
orbis totally clear, but when Saturn passes and becomes a separating
aspect,
or another planet, it is like the "undermining" effects have become
familiar
and that on an inner level one is used to the effects and working with
them,
so that the outer manifestations of one's transit theme is not
exaggerated,
but comes gently so to speak :-))

> "The aspect is stronger when separating than when forming."(Here he is
> referring to the transiting Moon and applying for a job.)

Maybe exactly the transiting Moon, from all the astrological planets,
holds this position alone, being stronger in a separating transite than
when applying.

> How would the situation differ if I was going to buy a bike? Would I wait
> until just before the aspect [eg Ven(buy) sxt Mer (bike)] became exact or
> just after it became exact?

In transits I'd act upon exact or close apllying, i.e. between 1 to 0
degree
applying orbis, preferably on the days of exactitude itself, if for
example
it is an aspect-development I have followed and promized myself to act
upon
like buying sth, signing a contract etc.

> As far as I know, in horary separating aspects are considered to be the past
> and do not really enter into consideration of the question except in a minor
> capacity [Correct me if i'm wrong - I'm sure you will:) ]

Of horary I know not and have no ideas.

> Looking forward to any and all comments on this,
> Warmly,
> Neil

For what it is. Hope it was of any inspiration.

Best wishes and kindest regards,

F l e m m i n g



Thread: Spica new address & phone
From: spica@world.net (Anne Elliott) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:42:03 +1000 (EST)

I've just moved and will be running Spica Publications from home so those
members of the list who write to me or ring me, to order the Horary
Practitioner and the Traditional Astrologer and the Southern Astrologer or
the books, the new address is:

SPICA PUBLICATIONS
8 GENEVA CLOSE
PARKINSON QLD 4115
AUSTRALIA

Phone ( 07) 3273 7344
Fax (07) 3273 5485

email is the same.

For Australians and Kiwis, the July edition of the Horary Practitioner has
arrived. Order over the phone for your copy.
Bit of blatant advertising. Sorry Carol. Couldn't resist.

Cheers
Anne


Thread: Applying vs Separating Aspects
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:43:01 +0900 (JST)

Hello All,

Which are 'stronger' applying or separating aspects?

Or are applying aspects 'stronger' in some cases and not in others?

Most of the material I have read does not go into this in great detail and
one is left with the impression, generally, that applying aspects are
'stronger' . However, I read in Charles Luntz's Vocational Guidance by
Astrology (reprinted in "How to Use Vocational Astrology for Success in the
Workplace" ed. by Noel Tyl (Llewellyn, 1992), p288 :

"The aspect is stronger when separating than when forming."(Here he is
referring to the transiting Moon and applying for a job.)

How would the situation differ if I was going to buy a bike? Would I wait
until just before the aspect [eg Ven(buy) sxt Mer (bike)] became exact or
just after it became exact?

As far as I know, in horary separating aspects are considered to be the past
and do not really enter into consideration of the question except in a minor
capacity [Correct me if i'm wrong - I'm sure you will:) ]

Looking forward to any and all comments on this,

Warmly,

Neil





Thread: Age of Aquarius Festival
From: "Jim D'Amato" <jimdinlv@vegas.infi.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:51:53 -0700

Hi Carol
We are annoucing a festival to celebrate the beginning of the Age of
Aquarius and a reunion for followers of Carl Payne Tobey, Grant Lewi and
Moby Dick.
Could you please put up a link and or announcement and or pass the word
of this major Astrology event in Las Vegas, Nevada which begins on
January 29, 1998, the day Neptune goes into Aquarius. For additional
information see the url below.
http://www.the-ultimate.com/space/festival.htm
Thanks
Jim and Naomi


Thread: UPS strike
From: Shirley Gray <GrayShirley@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:58:33 -0400

Frank Ernest wrote:
>
> At 11:15 PM 8/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >Regarding the question of location: The Washington D.C. chart has
> >strong links with the U.S. Gemini rising chart (you all have it on
> >file, right?). The Part of Commerce (Asc plus Mercury minus Sun) at 8
> >Gemini is close to the U.S. chart Asc at 7 Gemini and on U.S. Uranus at
> >8 Gemini, reflecting the disruptive effect of the strike on the nation's
> >economy. Further testimony is added by I.C. falling on U.S. Mercury.
>
> Most interesting!! Would you mind posting (or e-mailing) U.S. chart time,
> date, place? I confess I do not have it on file nor in any of my notes.
> >
> >Also of possible interest: Both leaders have natal Sun in Aries, here
> >intercepted with Saturn in behind-the-scenes 12th. (Teamster head Ron
> >Carey d.o.b. March 22, 1936, Manhattan NY; James Kelly, United Parcel
> >Service president, April 18, 1943, Jersey City NJ.) Saturn in Aries
> >linked to 2nd-ruler Mercury by antiscion indicates both men are
> >constrained by financial pressures created by the strike, and stalemated
> >in their struggle over control of union pension funds. If we assign the
> >1st to the Teamsters as initiators of the action, Night Fortuna in early
> >Taurus confirms union control of the pension fund, but in the 12th may
> >indicate difficulty in fighting off the UPS challenge for control.
> >
> >Shirley
> >
>
> Have you investigated the strike chart in relation to the Aries and Cancer
> Ingress charts?

Hello Frank:
Of course, you do realize that there are almost as many U.S. charts as
there are U.S. astrologers. That said, I'm happy to send you the
coordinates of the one I like to work with, mostly because it seems to
give pretty good results when major things happen. July 4, 1776, 2:17
a.m LMT, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 39N58, 75W10, 7 Gemini 35 rising.

I have not looked at the strike chart in relation to the Aries and
Cancer ingresses, but that's an excellent suggestion. However, there is
a solar eclipse on September 1 at 9 Virgo 34, lighting up that already
very hot Mercury, 2nd ruler, on the same degree. In company with Moon's
final sextile to Mars in 6th, ruler of the 7th, it may herald some
movement, especially on the question of the pension funds.

Shirley


Thread: UPS strike
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:51:44 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Frank Ernest wrote:
Okay, then from all angles I can examine on this question
Washington DC is the valid location for the strike chart.
> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:02:30 -0400
> From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Subject: Re: UPS strike
> Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:34:35 +7
> Resent-From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
> Resent-To: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>
> At 01:27 AM 8/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Okay thanks, this does clarify things somewhat.
> >Understand though that the decission to strike wasn't necessarily
> >made in Washington DC. The teamsters may not have sent plenny potentiaries
> >to Washington DC so those people may not have had
> >the authority to make such a decission.
> >
> My understanding is that union members voted to give their leaders the
> authority to call a strike. Ron Carey, head of the UPS teamsters Union, did
> call the strike in Washington DC.
>
> Frank Ernest
> You are invited to visit my home page at:
> http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest
>
>



jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
While anyone can write anything on the internet; noone has the ability nor the right
to compel anyone else to read their writing.



Thread: UPS Strike
From: "Rowena Wall" <urana-star@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:21:05 -05

Hi:

Have been observing comments about the UPS strike and doing the
chart for Washington, D.C. The home office of UPS is in
Atlanta, and that is where the decision was made to strike -
that is where management and most of the employees are centered.

It seems to me that Atlanta would be the appropriate place to
use rather than Washington.

Rowena
Rowena Wall, Professional Astrologer
http://www.starflash.com/starstuff
http://www.starflash.com/zodiac
Discover Ancient Healing Secrets
http://www.essoil.com/LynnGroup/members/Starstuff


Thread: UPS strike
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:02:30 -0400

At 01:27 AM 8/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Okay thanks, this does clarify things somewhat.
>Understand though that the decission to strike wasn't necessarily
>made in Washington DC. The teamsters may not have sent plenny potentiaries
>to Washington DC so those people may not have had
>the authority to make such a decission.
>
My understanding is that union members voted to give their leaders the
authority to call a strike. Ron Carey, head of the UPS teamsters Union, did
call the strike in Washington DC.

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: UPS strike
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:55:12 -0400

At 11:15 PM 8/11/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Regarding the question of location: The Washington D.C. chart has
>strong links with the U.S. Gemini rising chart (you all have it on
>file, right?). The Part of Commerce (Asc plus Mercury minus Sun) at 8
>Gemini is close to the U.S. chart Asc at 7 Gemini and on U.S. Uranus at
>8 Gemini, reflecting the disruptive effect of the strike on the nation's
>economy. Further testimony is added by I.C. falling on U.S. Mercury.

Most interesting!! Would you mind posting (or e-mailing) U.S. chart time,
date, place? I confess I do not have it on file nor in any of my notes.
>
>Also of possible interest: Both leaders have natal Sun in Aries, here
>intercepted with Saturn in behind-the-scenes 12th. (Teamster head Ron
>Carey d.o.b. March 22, 1936, Manhattan NY; James Kelly, United Parcel
>Service president, April 18, 1943, Jersey City NJ.) Saturn in Aries
>linked to 2nd-ruler Mercury by antiscion indicates both men are
>constrained by financial pressures created by the strike, and stalemated
>in their struggle over control of union pension funds. If we assign the
>1st to the Teamsters as initiators of the action, Night Fortuna in early
>Taurus confirms union control of the pension fund, but in the 12th may
>indicate difficulty in fighting off the UPS challenge for control.
>
>Shirley
>

Have you investigated the strike chart in relation to the Aries and Cancer
Ingress charts?


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:21:28 -0400


>>I agree that the 10th House is in bad shape having a detrimented

>>Mars and ruled by a fallen Venus from the Ninth. Perhaps Mars can be seen

>>as the one who gave the order, rather than as the one who carried it out.

>...interesting thought, but wouldn't that need to be the ruler of the 10th?

Venus rules the 10th, but does not command it. Venus is fallen, cadent and
mutable; Mars is detrimented, but cardinal and angular. Venus disposes Mars
which indicates to me that Venus somehow became a contingency. Mars does
rule the 11th of contingency and the 12th of secrets. All this suggests to
me that Mars told Mercury, "Get it done, I don't care how and don't involve
me." Fifth cusp (27Tau) ruled by Venus is close to conjoining Alcyone. (It
just gets worse, doesn't it? Apparently, Venus never had a chance.)
>
>> Mercury as killer seems to fit.

>>He is the strongest person in the chart, having the power of life and

>>death. He's in the Ninth, rules the cusp, is closest to the cusp and Home

>>in his sign. Sag is natural rule of Ninth and rising sign tying victims
to
>>"this place." Mercury is also semisquare Mars which indicates Mercury was

>>acting under pressure from some presumed authority.

>Merc at 11Virg and Mars at 25Lib, is surely well out of orb of semi square?

11Vir to 25Lib is 44 degrees.

>Or do you use whole sign aspects?

I do not use them.
>
>>Jupiter, ruler of victims is peregrine, retrograde, intercepted and not
in
>>reception. This may be indicative of the victims' attempt to flee the

>>gunman and having no place to go. Jupiter is inconjunct Moon and Venus in

>>the ninth. I suspect Moon and Venus are the victims. Moon, I suspect, is

>>the adult.

>This is a very interesting deduction, I can see your reasoning, altho the

>inconjunct orb for the Moon/Jup is, again, rather large, I thought minor

>aspects were only allowed one degree?

Since it's Moon and Jupiter involved, one might allow a little more.

>>the adult. Venus (child) is semisextile intercepted Sun in Sag (victim)

>>decan in Eighth and inconjunct Jupiter (ruler victims). Moon is also one

>>degree from the Node suggesting Moon is a casualty, but not lethally so.
As
>>Venus rules the 10th, semisextiles the cusp and disposes Mars, it appears

>>that the child "got in the way." Confirm with Venus between Mercury and

>>Moon at approximate time of incident.

>I think this is superb!!

Thank you!
>
>
>>In order to do this chart, I used the time and location given by Angela
and
>>retrieved newspaper accounts from the London Times of August 6th and 7th.

>>The article of 7 August contained a plea from the police for the

>>"underworld" to turn in the killer. Here (in the US), it would mean they

>>haven't a clue as to the killer's identity. Mercury is due to make

>>retrograde station on the 17th of August. On 29 August, Mercury will be
at
>>the same position as at the time of the killing. This could indicate that

>>the killer will return to the scene around that time (speculation on my
part).

>Or be 'brought back', as in 'caught' around that time?


According to Lilly's fugitive rules, he will return, but not caught or
brought back by force. (I hesitate here because the chart is mundane rather
than horary.) If one moves in mundane ways, there is a solar eclipse on 1
September occurring at 9Vir, one degree inside the Ninth of the original
chart and nearest original Mercury. Eclipse time Mercury will be 6Vir retro
in the Eighth of the original chart. Really wild speculation would be "case
closed, child's murderer found dead in alley near crime scene."

>
>Frank, what can I say? I think this is a superb interpretation, and am
quite
>staggered at your whole thought process. Thank you very much indeed for
your
>response. Quite apart from monitoring the situation, I find this an
extremely
>informative and instructive posting. Many, many thanks.

You're welcome.



Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:42:22 -0400

At 11:22 PM 8/11/97 PDT, you wrote:
>
>
>----------
> At 07:42 AM 8/7/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>In response to your fashion query! An annorak is also known as a parka.
>In case you are still in ignorance, it is a short hooded jacket, quilted
>(usually nylon) and zipped at the front.

Thanks! I understand parka.
>
>Hoping this helps in your understanding of this chart!!!

Well, it lends a little to the disguise factor, as if the gold motorcycle
helmet wasn't enough. Thanks for the info.
>

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:37:30 -0400


>Frank writes:
>
>< I plead fashion ignorance. What is an annorak? >

At 03:40 AM 8/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>-- It's what people with fashion ignorance are said to wear, in fact
>nowadays it's what they are said to be. Properly spelt 'anorak' , it's a
>hooded zip-up waterproof jacket, usually slightly padded. People with
>street-cred stopped wearing them in the 60's, but they can still be found
>on the backs of train-spotters and spotty-faced adolescents who wear
>Brylcream and National Health service spectacles held together at the sides
>with a piece of sellotape or a bandaid plaster.

OK. I have seen them occasionally as winter-wear on small children.
>
>They are so much the epitome of no fashion sense that lately they have
>become - oh yes - fashionable again!! (Which just goes to prove what a
>funny old world we live in). Lately popularised by the likes of Jarvis
>Cocker from the brilliant British pop group 'Pulp' (who you are most likely
>to know of only because he flashed his bum at Michael Jackson at a recent
>pop awards ceremony). Brylcream, the spots and the specs complete the
>look, making it hard, when you come across such an individual in the
>street, to know whether you have a genuine nerd or just a daft teenager
>going through a phase.

We do have phasing teenagers who all dress exactly alike to show how
"different" they are. I've not heard of Jarvis Cocker or Pulp. Flashing
bums are found at the swimming pool this time of year.
>
>Hopes that helps your atrological interpretation.

Anorak assigned to Neptune, ruler of confusion, and 12th House, container
of things which should be hidden. :)
>
Warm Regards,

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: "June Key" <quays@chariot.net.au> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:55:04 +0930

Hi Frank
Thank you for posting of the Manchester Shooting, it was very much
appreciated. As I'm fairly new to this list as well as looking at event
chart's. I am following this with great interest.
I did send a posting before and mentioned that as the ruler of the 7th. is
in the intercepted 9th., could the killer be hiding in a house or flat
near a High School or college. The reason for saying this is that Mercury
and Jupiter are in each others houses. Also I'm under the impression that
a intercepted house could mean that the person is in hiding and can't get
out. Am I correct in thinking this
Thank you once again
Regards June


Thread: UPS strike
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:32:34 -0400 (EDT)


I don't use a Gemini rising chart for the U.s. Scorpio rising seems more
valid for me.
I'll check all of this against the scorpio rising chart time
permitting.


jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
While anyone can write anything on the internet; noone has the ability nor the right
to compel anyone else to read their writing.



Thread: UPS strike
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:27:27 -0400 (EDT)


Okay thanks, this does clarify things somewhat.
Understand though that the decission to strike wasn't necessarily
made in Washington DC. The teamsters may not have sent plenny potentiaries
to Washington DC so those people may not have had
the authority to make such a decission.


> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:10:25 -0400
> From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Subject: Re: UPS strike
> Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:13:48 +7
> Resent-From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
> Resent-To: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>,
> "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>,
> "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>,
> "Members"<william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>
> At 02:58 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Location question, is the rationalle for using Washington DC due
> >to the fact that this event effects the whole nation or is Teamsters
> headquarters
> >located in Washington DC?
> >
> >
> >jude <jdashiel@eagle1..eaglenet.com>
> >
> I used DC because that's where the Teamsters announced the strike and made
> it official. Yes, it does affect the entire nation which is another
> consideration. If the Teamsters had announced the strike from New York, I
> would have used that location.
>
>
>



jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
While anyone can write anything on the internet; noone has the ability nor the right
to compel anyone else to read their writing.



Thread: Missing boy
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:45:15 +0930

My sister called me last night (7:46pm. ACST -9:30 Adelaide 34S55 - 138E35 -
15 Pisces rising) to ask about the behaviour problem, slow-learner teenager
she has been fostering for the last five years. He had been suspended from
school yet again and run away. He was last seen about 11:am that morning.
She feared he may have gone to a red light district popular with runaway
teenagers.

She specifically asked is David safe? Where is he?

Any ideas?

thanks



Thread: UPS strike
From: Shirley Gray <GrayShirley@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:15:22 -0400

Frank Ernest wrote:
>
> At 02:58 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Location question, is the rationalle for using Washington DC due
> >to the fact that this event effects the whole nation or is Teamsters
> headquarters
> >located in Washington DC?
> >
> >
> >jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
> >
> I used DC because that's where the Teamsters announced the strike and made
> it official. Yes, it does affect the entire nation which is another
> consideration. If the Teamsters had announced the strike from New York, I
> would have used that location.
>

Regarding the question of location: The Washington D.C. chart has
strong links with the U.S. Gemini rising chart (you all have it on
file, right?). The Part of Commerce (Asc plus Mercury minus Sun) at 8
Gemini is close to the U.S. chart Asc at 7 Gemini and on U.S. Uranus at
8 Gemini, reflecting the disruptive effect of the strike on the nation's
economy. Further testimony is added by I.C. falling on U.S. Mercury.

Also of possible interest: Both leaders have natal Sun in Aries, here
intercepted with Saturn in behind-the-scenes 12th. (Teamster head Ron
Carey d.o.b. March 22, 1936, Manhattan NY; James Kelly, United Parcel
Service president, April 18, 1943, Jersey City NJ.) Saturn in Aries
linked to 2nd-ruler Mercury by antiscion indicates both men are
constrained by financial pressures created by the strike, and stalemated
in their struggle over control of union pension funds. If we assign the
1st to the Teamsters as initiators of the action, Night Fortuna in early
Taurus confirms union control of the pension fund, but in the 12th may
indicate difficulty in fighting off the UPS challenge for control.

Shirley


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: "Jeanette Hartnack & Tobias Ware" <hyperion@powerup.com.au> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 23:22:39 PDT



----------
> At 07:42 AM 8/7/97 EDT, you wrote:

> I plead fashion ignorance. What is an annorak?
>

> Frank Ernest

In response to your fashion query! An annorak is also known as a parka.
In case you are still in ignorance, it is a short hooded jacket, quilted
(usually nylon) and zipped at the front.

Hoping this helps in your understanding of this chart!!!

Jeanette



Thread: Which House?
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:48:37 -0400

At 01:13 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Does anyone have thoughts on proper house to assign as representing 2nd party
>in this query? Male querent wants to know when Miss X will get a job so she
>can move out on her own. He claims she is just a friend he is helping out
>temporarily, in which case I could give it to the 11th house.....but they
>have lived together for nearly a year, She certainly considers it a romantic
>relationship and friends and family consider them a couple. If they continue
>to live together a few more days, their relationship could even become a
>common law marriage in this state. Obviously, he's less committed than she is
>but they're still cohabitating. So would she be found in the 11th (querent's
>definition of the relationship but one which doesn't reflect what's really
>happening), the 5th ( her take on the situation)?
>
>Maggie
>
She is Seventh House. She is the partner in an unbonded relationship.
Eleventh House contains casual acquaintances in general. Fifth House would
be "girl friend." She's certainly more than a casual acquaintance and one
would not consider their relationship to be casual dating.



Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Election map for Northern Ireland peace talks
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:10:45 +0100



I have now found out from George Mitchell's (Chairman of the Peace talks)
office in Belfast that the talks will be resumed at 12 noon, 15th September,
1997 in Belfast (Stormont). Co-ordinates: 54n35 5w55 BST.

This puts Mercury at the Midheaven and the Moon at the IC. Moon's next
aspect is trine to Venus in Scorpio in the 12th. Although Venus is poorly
placed, she is a benefic and the approaching trine by the Moon from Pisces
in the 4th might help towards some resolution in this matter. Mercury close
to the Midheaven in his own sign suggests to me some productive talking.
Mercury is also ruler of the 8th.

Would anybody like to make any comments on this? I have used Regiomontanus
houses.

In some extensive research into the Northern Ireland peace process I found
that Gemini/Sagittairus and Virgo/Pisces - and particularly around the 5 07
degree point - were always emphasised at critical points in the history of
this conflict so it is very interesting for me to see the Moon at 3 47
Pisces and Mercury at 4 53 Virgo with the MC/IC axis falling at 1 31
Virgo/Pisces. This seems to be a very British crisis but one, I would hope,
that will lead to positive resolution coming from the Labour government and
a more flexible Unionist approach. If the Government is the 10th, here, and
the opposition the 4th then Jupiter retrograde ruling the 4th should
indicate some re-thinking on the stance adopted by those represented by the
4th in the discussions... This could be either the Unionists or Sinn Fein -
depends on how the Government views each of these privately and, whether or
not, the 4th as the opposite from the 10th in this chart is appropriate to
describe any of the parties present at the talks.

Pat.





Thread: UPS strike
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:10:25 -0400

At 02:58 PM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Location question, is the rationalle for using Washington DC due
>to the fact that this event effects the whole nation or is Teamsters
headquarters
>located in Washington DC?
>
>
>jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
>
I used DC because that's where the Teamsters announced the strike and made
it official. Yes, it does affect the entire nation which is another
consideration. If the Teamsters had announced the strike from New York, I
would have used that location.



Thread: Spicy@ nyct.net
From: spicy <spicy@nyct.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:25:09 -0400

not nycn.net...sorry about that....
you can answer in the forum.....thank you again...any and all who reply.






Thread: Will he
From: spicy <spicy@nyct.net> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 04:24:23 -0400

leave his wife and move in with her?

question asked 4:15 am... EDT brooklyn NY
I'm an astrologer...but I really dont' have that much info about horary
to venture an answer to this question...
A friend of mine is pregnant...and the man she's in love with is with
her 4 days of every week and home with his wife and kids the other 3...
can somone help with this...and tell me how they come up with the
answers so that I can learn from it...

Thank you... Spicy@nycn.net




Thread: JLL
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 03:40:48 -0400


>I agree with Diana I have known Lee for years she has been my teacher with
more patients then anyone. <

Sorry Roger, but the mental image this conjures up probably doesn't do
justice to Lehman's skills. I thought she was a Doctor of Philosophy!

Deb


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 03:40:51 -0400

Frank writes:

< I plead fashion ignorance. What is an annorak? >

-- It's what people with fashion ignorance are said to wear, in fact
nowadays it's what they are said to be. Properly spelt 'anorak' , it's a
hooded zip-up waterproof jacket, usually slightly padded. People with
street-cred stopped wearing them in the 60's, but they can still be found
on the backs of train-spotters and spotty-faced adolescents who wear
Brylcream and National Health service spectacles held together at the sides
with a piece of sellotape or a bandaid plaster.

They are so much the epitome of no fashion sense that lately they have
become - oh yes - fashionable again!! (Which just goes to prove what a
funny old world we live in). Lately popularised by the likes of Jarvis
Cocker from the brilliant British pop group 'Pulp' (who you are most likely
to know of only because he flashed his bum at Michael Jackson at a recent
pop awards ceremony). Brylcream, the spots and the specs complete the
look, making it hard, when you come across such an individual in the
street, to know whether you have a genuine nerd or just a daft teenager
going through a phase.

Hopes that helps your atrological interpretation.

Best wishes,
Deb


Thread: Manchester shootings
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 07:27:37 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/11/97 12:19

I'll try again .... before my fingers go AWOL a third time - thanks very
much for your post, Kent. I will keep you informed of developments.

Apols to the list for this disjointed communication; I'll now go and give my
digits a severe talking to .....

Regards

Angela

>Sorry, I pushed the 'send' button instead of the 'next page', so the post
>was sent down the wire before I had chance to say 'thanks'. So ...

>> Now that I have jumped head first into something I have not tried
>>before, take it apart for me.
>>Kent
>I have read too many of your postings, Kent, to know that your astrological
>knowledge and practise merits anything other than serious consideration and
>respect.

---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Manchester shootings
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 07:21:14 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/11/97 12:15

Sorry, I pushed the 'send' button instead of the 'next page', so the post
was sent down the wire before I had chance to say 'thanks'. So ...

> Now that I have jumped head first into something I have not tried
>before, take it apart for me.
>Kent
I have read too many of your postings, Kent, to know that your astrological
knowledge and practise merits anything other than serious consideration and
respect.

---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Manchester shootings
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 07:16:32 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/10/97 01:28

>tenth ruled by Venus. Could the stepfather have hired the killer?
Not that I'm aware of, but the stepfather could have been the cause of the
little boy's death in as far as the Police were speculating about a possible
drugs connection.

>is in its fall in Virgo. I don't know what the nineth house says. Maybe
>he is going on a long trip. Venus being the significator of the
>stepfather, it also rules the 6th of health. I have no idea whether that
>can be tied in with his gun shot. Besides the moon, venus is also void
>of course where other planets are concerned. Nothing much happens where
>the father is concerned. Venus is completing a trine to the part of
>fortune. Could the stepfather benefit from the boys death?
I would have been more inclined to have thought that the state of Venus
indicated the debilitated stated of the stepfather, and I guess the 'benefit'
he may have gained from the little boy's death was the fact that the little
chap stopped the bullets which were presumably destined for stepfather, so,
instead of being killed the stepfather was seriously injured.
>The murderer could end up being murdered himself. Mercury square
>the asc.; there will be lies and misinfromation concerning the
>shootings.
That's a possibility, in the world of organised crime and drug related stuff,
I guess there could be a heavy price to pay for something which has,
presumably, gone so wrong. They do seem to meter their own justice.
Unfortunately, should this be the case, it is doubtful the public will ever
get to know.

> Summation: The stepfather hired someone to kill the boy so he could
>gain materially. The murderer will be killed himself and the stepfather
>will have to leave.
I wouldn't have agreed here, but, having said that, this opinion is based more
on the news reports, not the chart. Certainly I think the father's activities
brought about the little boy's death, but not by direct order; and certainly,
I think the father gained his life from the fact that the little boy was 'in
the way'.

>The case will not be solved.
I do tend to agree here, there being only two Ptolemaic major aspects in the
chart, Sun opp Jup, and Sun trine Sat. Both Jup and the Sun are in
intercepted signs, and, taking Merc as the murderer, this would put Jup in
the murderer's 8th hse of death, and the Sun in his second of money. The Sun
being natural ruler of authority, Jupiter of justice, and both planets being
intercepted, makes me wonder if some kind of justice will catch up with this
man ultimately, but it may take a little time. He, indeed, could the victim
of 'a hit'.Having said that, I am intrigued to see how Merc fares when
it goes retro mid August, appropro Frank's posting.
> Now that I have jumped head first into something I have not tried
>before, take it apart for me.
>Kent
I have read too many of your postings, Kent, to know that your astrological
knowledge and practise merits anything other than serious consideration and
respect.

---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 06:40:03 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/10/97 01:40


>I plead fashion ignorance. What is an annorak?
Sorry, I hope I've spelt it correctly, basically a short quilted jacket, like
a ski-jacket, but not quite so padded.

>I agree that the 10th House is in bad shape having a detrimented
>Mars and ruled by a fallen Venus from the Ninth. Perhaps Mars can be seen
>as the one who gave the order, rather than as the one who carried it out.
...interesting thought, but wouldn't that need to be the ruler of the 10th?

> Mercury as killer seems to fit.
>He is the strongest person in the chart, having the power of life and
>death. He's in the Ninth, rules the cusp, is closest to the cusp and Home
>in his sign. Sag is natural rule of Ninth and rising sign tying victims to
>"this place." Mercury is also semisquare Mars which indicates Mercury was
>acting under pressure from some presumed authority.
Merc at 11Virg and Mars at 25Lib, is surely well out of orb of semi square?
Or do you use whole sign aspects?

>Jupiter, ruler of victims is peregrine, retrograde, intercepted and not in
>reception. This may be indicative of the victims' attempt to flee the
>gunman and having no place to go. Jupiter is inconjunct Moon and Venus in
>the ninth. I suspect Moon and Venus are the victims. Moon, I suspect, is
>the adult.
This is a very interesting deduction, I can see your reasoning, altho the
inconjunct orb for the Moon/Jup is, again, rather large, I thought minor
aspects were only allowed one degree?

>the adult. Venus (child) is semisextile intercepted Sun in Sag (victim)
>decan in Eighth and inconjunct Jupiter (ruler victims). Moon is also one
>degree from the Node suggesting Moon is a casualty, but not lethally so. As
>Venus rules the 10th, semisextiles the cusp and disposes Mars, it appears
>that the child "got in the way." Confirm with Venus between Mercury and
>Moon at approximate time of incident.
I think this is superb!!

>Starting with gross indications, Sun is Home (Leo) in the Eighth (death)
>and intercepted. Saturn is fallen in Aries and retrograde in the Fourth,
>indicating death from wounds and trines the Sun. Mars in angular 10th
>indicates violent injury, in Libra more likely violent injurious
>intentions, and opposes Saturn. (In Lilly's time, I suspect this chart
>would be termed "malignant.") Moon ruling Ninth and sextile cusp (Cancer
>ruler natural Fourth), Eighth and Second Cusps in degree of Nodes, adult
>tried but could not prevent tragedy. They both became victims.

>Mercury just entered Ninth from Eighth. Newspaper account says killer
>stepped from alley onto public street to confront victims. Mercury first
>contacts Venus (child, Venus rules Fifth), then Moon (adult, Moon is a
>parenting and nurturing planet). Venus is fallen by sign semisextile the
>Sun and almost exactly inconjunct Jupiter, while the protective Moon is
>peregrine, but in the Taurus decan and exactly inconjunct Saturn.

>Fortuna, in First of victims, is disposed by and square to a lethal Saturn.
>Fortuna is also in Taurus decan, sign on Fifth cusp of child. Saturn in Sag
>decan ties to First. Sun in Sag decan ties to First. We have a chain of
>relationship, subtle, but there.

>In order to do this chart, I used the time and location given by Angela and
>retrieved newspaper accounts from the London Times of August 6th and 7th.
>The article of 7 August contained a plea from the police for the
>"underworld" to turn in the killer. Here (in the US), it would mean they
>haven't a clue as to the killer's identity. Mercury is due to make
>retrograde station on the 17th of August. On 29 August, Mercury will be at
>the same position as at the time of the killing. This could indicate that
>the killer will return to the scene around that time (speculation on my part).
Or be 'brought back', as in 'caught' around that time?

>Frank Ernest

Frank, what can I say? I think this is a superb interpretation, and am quite
staggered at your whole thought process. Thank you very much indeed for your
response. Quite apart from monitoring the situation, I find this an extremely
informative and instructive posting. Many, many thanks.

Regards

Angela

---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Which House?
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 05:50:16 EDT


............. or surely the seventh as house of partner, be it emotional
partnership, or purely 'the other party'; even, the 'opposing party' (CAp54)?

Regards

Angela



Thread: UPS strike
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:58:42 -0400 (EDT)


Location question, is the rationalle for using Washington DC due
to the fact that this event effects the whole nation or is Teamsters headquarters
located in Washington DC?


jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.



Thread: Which House?
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:13:27 -0400 (EDT)

Does anyone have thoughts on proper house to assign as representing 2nd party
in this query? Male querent wants to know when Miss X will get a job so she
can move out on her own. He claims she is just a friend he is helping out
temporarily, in which case I could give it to the 11th house.....but they
have lived together for nearly a year, She certainly considers it a romantic
relationship and friends and family consider them a couple. If they continue
to live together a few more days, their relationship could even become a
common law marriage in this state. Obviously, he's less committed than she is
but they're still cohabitating. So would she be found in the 11th (querent's
definition of the relationship but one which doesn't reflect what's really
happening), the 5th ( her take on the situation)?

Maggie


Thread: Request for a Cease Fire
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:57:48 +0100

>Can we get back to discussing astrology?
>
>I find the personal attacks and diatribes on this list distracting and rather
>boring.
>
>Tony
>

Yes, I was disappointed when I clicked into your e-mail to find no reference
to a chart for something about Northern Ireland along electional lines. If
anyone is interested in pursuing a discussion on this subject re: the up and
coming peace talks in September regarding election and mundane stuff I'd be
very interested.

Pat.



Thread: Manchester shootings
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 15:44:27 -0500

I read horary decendly; electional charts ok. I have never tried an
event chart. WWeellll, here goes nothing. Murder and murderer: 12th
house and Mars. On this chart Mars rules the 12th house. I like the idea
of a professional, especially with Jupiter in the 2nd house (Gain of
personal possessions). A child is represented by the Sun. The Sun is in
the eighth house (death) opposition Jupiter in the 2nd. I know it is not
the way Lilly used the houses but I have only had success with the
fourth representing mothers and motherhood. (There have been major
societal changes concerning the home and professions since Lilly's time.
I would think that it is quite possible that the relationship between
children and their parents have changed also.) This being a male child
would make it even more likely for the fourth house to represent the
mother. The husband of the mother would be the tenth; Mars is in the
tenth ruled by Venus. Could the stepfather have hired the killer? Venus
is in its fall in Virgo. I don't know what the nineth house says. Maybe
he is going on a long trip. Venus being the significator of the
stepfather, it also rules the 6th of health. I have no idea whether that
can be tied in with his gun shot. Besides the moon, venus is also void
of course where other planets are concerned. Nothing much happens where
the father is concerned. Venus is completing a trine to the part of
fortune. Could the stepfather benefit from the boys death? Saturn
retrograde in Aries (fall) and the 4th house; the grief of the mother??
I will step outside traditional astrology one more time; Pluto in the
12th. The murderer could end up being murdered himself. Mercury square
the asc.; there will be lies and misinfromation concerning the
shootings.
Summation: The stepfather hired someone to kill the boy so he could
gain materially. The murderer will be killed himself and the stepfather
will have to leave. The case will not be solved.
Now that I have jumped head first into something I have not tried
before, take it apart for me.

Kent


Thread: JLL
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:57:03 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-09 04:44:30 EDT, you write:

<< As you can see from the above, your message was (mercifully) cut off
> in transmission; but I will answer what did come through by observing
> that this space may be used for anything we (and Carol) decide to use
> it for - it is not for you to dictate how it may be employed. I, for
> one, would enjoy hearing about any books or articles others have
> written - whether they are "plugging" their work or not. Let's drop
> it, OK? I have known Lee for years; she is an extraordinarily kind and
> helpful person. Over and out. DKR >>

I think I mention a quote from Lee Lehman Ph. D. not to long ago and you
know what I think I'll mention the book again !!! Classical Astrology For
Modern Living From Ptolemy to Psychology & Back Again, This is probably one
of the best books I have read in the 20th century! If you want to know how
to apply ancient techniques to Modern Astrology this is the book for you..

I have read the Chapter on the Bendings and have found it very well
researched and very informative. If you would like to know more about it I
suggest buying the book!! Now if you want to discuss why I have mention the
book All I can say it You Talking to Me!! You Talkin to me!! Figure it out!

I agree with Diana I have known Lee for years she has been my teacher with
more patients then anyone. There is not a subject I can't approach her about
that she hasn't already researched!! I do mean an Astrological Subject
Which I thought that was what this mailing list was all about????? It seems
to have turn into a Soap Opera as of late. So I'll try to peak your interest
with a subject!!

In Lee Lehmans PH. D. book Classical Astrology for Modern Living Chapter 8
page 169 she mentions the Circle of Athla also she refers you to material of
Valens. Has anyone tried these Wheels and have you had any astrological
comments on the subject!!

There maybe we can get back to Topics!!

In the old days they use to write poems to the Authors of Great Astrology
books I guess todays tradition is to be Jealous!

Rodger B. Grable


Thread: Manilius, stars & pastimes
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 12:02:35 -0400


--------------934CF321666B4F1274F86FB0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have been trying to check some of the material in Manilius in relation
to constellations, but it is hard to find people in some of the
professions and pastimes that he mentions. Does anyone have birth data
on any of the following (date alone will do, tho of course w/a time is
even better): fowlers, i.e. anyone who works with birds in any ways:
saving or training raptors, pidgeon fanciers, researchers, etc (Cygnus,
Corvus); acrobats &/or stuntmen, daredevils of any kind (Hercules);
gardeners, landscapers, people who work with Bach flower remedies,
perfumers, etc (Corona Borealis); dog trainers or handlers (Canis Major
& Minor); animal trainers (for films, circus etc) & hunters (Ursa Maj &
Minor & Leo) -& veterinarians; fishermen, whale and dolphin researchers
(guess!). I also need firemen, rescue people (professional or amateur),
and farmers. For a pattern I found in Chinese constellations, I need
disabled people in wheelchairs, esp war vets. Healers (esp
hydrotherapists, but all other types as well), shamans; serpent handlers
or researchers.
There's also the other side of it: people who have been bitten by dogs,
snakes, sharks, crocs or attacked by bears (I have examples of such
attacks from magazine articles, but they never give the birth data of
the attackees!) People who have drowned or nearly drowned; those who
died in or survived shipwrecks. People who are blind or have severe eye
problems, and people who have had an amputation.
Of course, I will keep all details private, and no names will be used
unless with permission (I don't even need names, just whether male or
female.
With the examples I have so far, Manilius seems to be on target, but I
need more examples to make it stick.
Thank you!! DKR


--------------934CF321666B4F1274F86FB0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
I have been trying to check some of the material in Manilius in relation
to constellations, but it is hard to find people in some of the professions
and pastimes that he mentions. Does anyone have birth data on any of the
following (date alone will do, tho of course w/a time is even better):
<U>fowlers</U>, i.e. anyone who works with birds in any ways: saving or
training raptors, pidgeon fanciers, researchers, etc (Cygnus, Corvus);
<U>acrobats </U>&amp;/or <U>stuntmen</U>, <U>daredevils</U> of any kind
(Hercules); <U>gardeners, landscapers</U>, people who work with Bach flower
remedies, <U>perfumers</U>, etc (Corona Borealis); <U>dog trainers</U>
or handlers (Canis Major &amp; Minor); <U>animal trainers</U> (for films,
circus etc) &amp; <U>hunters</U> (Ursa Maj &amp; Minor &amp; Leo) -&amp;
<U>veterinarians</U>; <U>fishermen</U>, <U>whale</U>&nbsp; and <U>dolphin</U>
researchers (guess!).&nbsp; I also need<U> firemen, rescue people</U> (professional
or amateur), and <U>farmers</U>.&nbsp; For a pattern I found in Chinese
constellations, I need disabled people in <U>wheelchairs, esp war vets</U>.&nbsp;
<U>Healers</U> (esp <U>hydrotherapists</U>, but all other types as well),
<U>shamans</U>; <U>serpent handlers</U> or researchers.
<BR>There's also the other side of it: people who have been bitten by dogs,
snakes, sharks, crocs or attacked by bears (I have examples of such attacks
from magazine articles, but they never give the birth data of the attackees!)
People who have <U>drowned</U> or nearly drowned; those who died in or
survived <U>shipwrecks.</U> People who are <U>blind </U>or have severe
eye problems, and people who have had an <U>amputation</U>.
<BR>Of course, I will keep all details private, and no names will be used
unless with permission (I don't even need names, just whether male or female.
<BR>With the examples I have so far, Manilius seems to be on target, but
I need more examples to make it stick.
<BR>Thank you!!&nbsp; DKR
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------934CF321666B4F1274F86FB0--



Thread: UPS strike
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 11:09:02 -0400

>Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 08:13:48 -0400
>To: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com>
>From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>
>Subject: Re: UPS strike
>In-Reply-To: <33E9EEAC.3B12F015@domain.com>
>
>At 11:50 AM 8/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Dear FJE,
>>I have become intrigued by all the UPS strike chart chatter on the
>>horary line, but could not tell from your (excellent) 8/5 transmission
>>what the date of the strike was - you mentioned Moon in Leo, so it had
>>to be 8/3 or 8/4 - could you send me the data? I am away from home &
>>newspapers, etc. Thank you! DKR
>>
>>
>Hi, Diana!
>
>Oops! The time, date and place are: 12:01AM EDT, 4 August 1997, Washington
DC (38N50 77W00).
>
>Thanks for letting me know I left something out. (I should know better
than to do a chart while Saturn is in the 7th.)
>
>
Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 11:00:18 -0400

At 07:42 AM 8/7/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Date: Wednesday 6 August 1997; Time: approx 5.05pm=4.05pm GMT; Lat: 53N30;

>Long: 2W15

>
>The time is an approximation, but the news report said "just after

>5pm". A description of the gunman was that he was wearing a motorcycle

>helmet, a green and/or purple annorak, black trousers and black shoes, and

>had short brown hair.

I plead fashion ignorance. What is an annorak?

>I have drawn up the chart and it has the Asc as 12Sag19, MC at 15Lib26.

>From a very brief initial look, just to start the ball rolling, I would
have
>thought that Mars at 25Lib20 in the tenth house, could indicate a

>'professional' killing, the tenth house being the house of 'authority';

>Commanders in chief whether armies or town (CA p55); could the fact that

>Mars is in his detriment, and also that Mars as a malefic thereby
afflicting
>the 10th, turns the 'profession' into a less honourable one than is
usually
>portrayed by the 10th? Mars is also the natural ruler of quarrels,
strifes, and
>contentions (CA p66).

May I suggest that one should look for the most powerful actor? I do not
think the killer would be acting from any professional or legal authority.
Mars always looks good in times of violent crisis, but Mars is rash, direct
and forceful. This killing was planned and deliberate and the killer
disguised. I agree that the 10th House is in bad shape having a detrimented
Mars and ruled by a fallen Venus from the Ninth. Perhaps Mars can be seen
as the one who gave the order, rather than as the one who carried it out.
>
>However, this is prior to looking for significators. As an event chart the

>victim is first house, viz Jupiter being ruler of Sag, however, there is

>no other planetary presence there, so how would the two victims be
represented?
>Presumably the gunman would be represented by the 7th house, being
opposite
>the first, thus, Mercury being ruler of Gemini. Mercury is strong being
in
>his own house and exaltation and is separating from conjunction to the Moon.

If one takes victim First, Jupiter rules also the Third of neighborhood in
which is found the Dragon's Tail in Pisces. Mercury as killer seems to fit.
He is the strongest person in the chart, having the power of life and
death. He's in the Ninth, rules the cusp, is closest to the cusp and Home
in his sign. Sag is natural rule of Ninth and rising sign tying victims to
"this place." Mercury is also semisquare Mars which indicates Mercury was
acting under pressure from some presumed authority.

Jupiter, ruler of victims is peregrine, retrograde, intercepted and not in
reception. This may be indicative of the victims' attempt to flee the
gunman and having no place to go. Jupiter is inconjunct Moon and Venus in
the ninth. I suspect Moon and Venus are the victims. Moon, I suspect, is
the adult. Venus (child) is semisextile intercepted Sun in Sag (victim)
decan in Eighth and inconjunct Jupiter (ruler victims). Moon is also one
degree from the Node suggesting Moon is a casualty, but not lethally so. As
Venus rules the 10th, semisextiles the cusp and disposes Mars, it appears
that the child "got in the way." Confirm with Venus between Mercury and
Moon at approximate time of incident.

>Is the Moon still co-sig of the first house in an event chart? And would

>that therefore mean that Jupiter and the Moon would be the sigs of the two

>victims? The Moon rules the 8th house of death, and Jupiter is disposited

>by Saturn, indicating severe restriction, thus could the Moon be
representing
>the little boy who died, and Jupiter his step father who is seriously

>injured?


Starting with gross indications, Sun is Home (Leo) in the Eighth (death)
and intercepted. Saturn is fallen in Aries and retrograde in the Fourth,
indicating death from wounds and trines the Sun. Mars in angular 10th
indicates violent injury, in Libra more likely violent injurious
intentions, and opposes Saturn. (In Lilly's time, I suspect this chart
would be termed "malignant.") Moon ruling Ninth and sextile cusp (Cancer
ruler natural Fourth), Eighth and Second Cusps in degree of Nodes, adult
tried but could not prevent tragedy. They both became victims.

Mercury just entered Ninth from Eighth. Newspaper account says killer
stepped from alley onto public street to confront victims. Mercury first
contacts Venus (child, Venus rules Fifth), then Moon (adult, Moon is a
parenting and nurturing planet). Venus is fallen by sign semisextile the
Sun and almost exactly inconjunct Jupiter, while the protective Moon is
peregrine, but in the Taurus decan and exactly inconjunct Saturn.

Fortuna, in First of victims, is disposed by and square to a lethal Saturn.
Fortuna is also in Taurus decan, sign on Fifth cusp of child. Saturn in Sag
decan ties to First. Sun in Sag decan ties to First. We have a chain of
relationship, subtle, but there.

In order to do this chart, I used the time and location given by Angela and
retrieved newspaper accounts from the London Times of August 6th and 7th.
The article of 7 August contained a plea from the police for the
"underworld" to turn in the killer. Here (in the US), it would mean they
haven't a clue as to the killer's identity. Mercury is due to make
retrograde station on the 17th of August. On 29 August, Mercury will be at
the same position as at the time of the killing. This could indicate that
the killer will return to the scene around that time (speculation on my part).






Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Ptolemy and "the bendings"
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:35:41 -0400 (EDT)

Hello:
I thought I'd change my title slightly from the "re:bendings" thread, which
seems to be heliacally setting, and expand on Deborah Houlding's recent post
about the bendings.
In Chapter 15 or Book III of Tetrabiblos, Ptolemy gives us the most
distinctly psychological delineations I've seen in any ancient astrological
literature. He talks about Mercury and the Moon as intrinsically important
for one's character (using mostly cardinal-fixed-mutable and whether they're
connected by sign to each other), but also uses the planet having governance
over the places of the Moon and Mercury (using domicile-exaltation-trip-term)
and planets configured with that planet. Then he goes on giving delineations
of various planets and personal character, omitting the luminaries.
Must-reading, if I may say so.
Finally he talks of the Moon being *an additional factor*, with respect to
(1) waxing and waning, and (2) at the bendings or upon the nodes.
Waxing Moon? - "she cooperates toward the more adept and conspicuous and
steadier and the more outspoken." Waning Moon? - "she cooperates toward the
more sluggish and the duller and the more regretful and careful and the more
inconspicuous".
At the bendings - "she cooperates toward the more versatile and resourceful
and the more changeable." Conjunct one of the nodes (or 0o latitude) - "she
cooperates toward the keener and more active and readily changeable."
Unfortunately Schmidt's translated two different words as "changeable" -
one "changeable" word, describing the Moon at the bendings, is from the word
metaballoo, which is more a change in course; the second "changeable" word,
depicting the Moon conjunct the nodes, is from the word kineoo, to move or
remove, also to arouse. (Robbins calls the first sense "capacity for
change", the second one "excitability." This seems to convey the difference
more.)
It seems to me, from these descriptions, that Ptolemy uses the Moon at the
bendings in an analogous way to its being in cardinal or movable signs, and
the Moon at the nodes more like the mutable or bicorporeal. There seems more
an intentionality in the description of the Moon at the bendings, perhaps
more unpredictability with the Moon conjunct the Nodes.
Why is this stuff important? (If you've read this far perhaps you also
think it is.)
(1) Ptolemy's chapter is at the root of later character delineation in
subsequent astrology, through Montulmo and Schoener to our 17th century
English guys, (2) it's actually testable through a modern consulting
practice, and (3) our 20th century psychological astrology certainly needs an
infusion of this stuff. Why - because modern astrology is primarily
introverted, occupied with inner features, and traditional astrology is more
extraverted, interested in situations in life. (There's more to say about
this!)
I'd love to read further perspectives on Chapter 14 of Book 3 of
Tetrabiblos.
Joseph Crane


Thread: FW:JLL
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 10:52:18 BST



>jon@emarkt.com wrote:
>
>> >I take exception to this particularly ignorant posting, just as I
>> took exception to the pompous and arrogant response of JLL to a
>> perfectly reasonable question from, I forget whom. I don't see this
>> space as dedicated to people to plug their books, but a
>> s a facility for mutual discussion and help. JLL's response was to
>> ignore the question and to puff her own cleverness by claiming some
>> sort of authorship of the subject. I thought it was a disgraceful
>> contribution. How many of us need to sign ourselves w
>> it
>> As you can see from the above, your message was (mercifully) cut off

Ever helpful let me re-post it for you since you missed valuable remarks on your own contribution of gratuitous insult. I don't doubt your assessment of JLL's character, but it certainly doesn't apply to her posting.

Jon



>I take exception to this particularly ignorant posting, just as I took exception to the pompous and arrogant response of JLL to a perfectly reasonable question from, I forget whom. I don't see this space as dedicated to people to plug their books, but as a facility for mutual discussion and help. JLL's response was to ignore the question and to puff her own cleverness by claiming some sort of authorship of the subject. I thought it was a disgraceful contribution. How many of us need to sign ourselves with our academic qualifications by the way, and what is the point of having those qualifications if their only use is to promote ourselves and leave others' questions unanswered?
>And what has this to do with eating brains or Neandertals? People with brains can keep to a topic.
>Jon
>> in transmission; but I will answer what did come through by observing
>> that this space may be used for anything we (and Carol) decide to use
>> it for - it is not for you to dictate how it may be employed. I, for
>> one, would enjoy hearing about any books or articles others have
>> written - whether they are "plugging" their work or not. Let's drop
>> it, OK? I have known Lee for years; she is an extraordinarily kind and
>> helpful person. Over and out. DKR
>
>
>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>




Thread: Bendings
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 10:51:47 BST

Thanks Deb, at last someone answered the question. I was under the mistaken impression the Bendings were a relatively modern invention of a great living astrologer who required an entire encyclopaedia to explain them.
Cheers
Jon

>I'm not getting all the post from the list, which I don't think is anything
>to do with Carol because the same has happened on other lists - I find
>references to posts that I haven't received. So I'm not sure if anyone has
>defined a 'bending' yet or not.
>
>Ptolemy mentions the bendings in the Tetrabiblos, III, 12 (Loeb p.325)
>where he says:
>
>".... if the maleficient planets move towards the luminaries, particularly
>when the Moon is at the nodes or her bendings...."
>
>The footnote on that page explains that the bendings are the points in
>square to the nodes.
>
>Deb
>
>PS - Can the next person to write about "Just one more" change the title of
>the thread to "I know this has all been said before, and is boring most of
>you to death, but I just can't help myself"
>
>




Thread: Bendings
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 02:35:06 -0400 (EDT)


I didn't originally get into this discussion before,
however reading books in a useable form is an honorable passtime.
Note useable form; a term that came about because of the a.d.a.
Since not everybody who uses a computer can use print easily or well at all
perhaps there was better reason than some suspect for the controversy.
Makes no difference to me in any event. Whenever controversies arise,
I simply place the subjects in my kill file and
they go away over here.
So far as whether anyone does or does not decide to place material
on the NET goes, discussion only gets as rich as participants
make it. No difference to me either way. Our i.s.p. is getting frantic about
users being on line for multiple hour sessions now. They're now a monopoly and
weren't prepared to become a monopoly before now, spam protection is non-existent
among other problems.
For myself, useable forms of reading material include printed matter on
the extremely difficult level. The machine I have that enables this for me
will cost over $3,500.00 for me to replace and will soon be in
need of replacement.

> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 20:35:50 -0400
> From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com>
> To: Carol A Wiggers <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
> Subject: Bendings
> Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:47:07 +7
> Resent-From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
> Resent-To: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>
> What is all the fuss? JLL cited her book as a source on this subject;
> she was the one who went to the trouble of researching and writing about
> it, and I do not believe she deserves to be mocked for not re-writing
> the chapter on the Net! The full discussion of the subject in the book
> is certainly worth more than a such a "sound bite" would be. Perhaps
> "bendings" refer to unfortunates who need to bend over backwards to mock
> their colleagues;
> Reading books is an honorable pastime; it is my understanding that the
> eating of brains went out with the Neanderthals... DKR
>
>
>



jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.



Thread: JLL
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 00:14:38 -0400


--------------3A0961BA6EAB8AA5025E8F2B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

jon@emarkt.com wrote:

> >I take exception to this particularly ignorant posting, just as I
> took exception to the pompous and arrogant response of JLL to a
> perfectly reasonable question from, I forget whom. I don't see this
> space as dedicated to people to plug their books, but a
> s a facility for mutual discussion and help. JLL's response was to
> ignore the question and to puff her own cleverness by claiming some
> sort of authorship of the subject. I thought it was a disgraceful
> contribution. How many of us need to sign ourselves w
> it
> As you can see from the above, your message was (mercifully) cut off
> in transmission; but I will answer what did come through by observing
> that this space may be used for anything we (and Carol) decide to use
> it for - it is not for you to dictate how it may be employed. I, for
> one, would enjoy hearing about any books or articles others have
> written - whether they are "plugging" their work or not. Let's drop
> it, OK? I have known Lee for years; she is an extraordinarily kind and
> helpful person. Over and out. DKR



> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >



--------------3A0961BA6EAB8AA5025E8F2B
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
jon@emarkt.com wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>I take exception to this particularly ignorant posting,
just as I took exception to the pompous and arrogant response of JLL to
a perfectly reasonable question from, I forget whom. I don't see this space
as dedicated to people to plug their books, but a
<BR>s a facility for mutual discussion and help. JLL's response was to
ignore the question and to puff her own cleverness by claiming some sort
of authorship of the subject. I thought it was a disgraceful contribution.
How many of us need to sign ourselves w
<BR>it
<BR>As you can see from the above, your message was (mercifully) cut off
in transmission; but I will answer what did come through by observing that
this space may be used for anything we (and Carol) decide to use it for
- it is not for you to dictate how it may be employed. I, for one, would
enjoy hearing about any books or articles others have written - whether
they are "plugging" their work or not. Let's drop it, OK? I have known
Lee for years; she is an <U>extraordinarily</U> kind and helpful person.
Over and out.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DKR</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>

<P>>
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>>>
<BR>>>
<BR>>
<BR>></BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------3A0961BA6EAB8AA5025E8F2B--



Thread: Bendings
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:35:56 -0400

I'm not getting all the post from the list, which I don't think is anything
to do with Carol because the same has happened on other lists - I find
references to posts that I haven't received. So I'm not sure if anyone has
defined a 'bending' yet or not.

Ptolemy mentions the bendings in the Tetrabiblos, III, 12 (Loeb p.325)
where he says:

".... if the maleficient planets move towards the luminaries, particularly
when the Moon is at the nodes or her bendings...."

The footnote on that page explains that the bendings are the points in
square to the nodes.

Deb

PS - Can the next person to write about "Just one more" change the title of
the thread to "I know this has all been said before, and is boring most of
you to death, but I just can't help myself"


Thread: Bendings
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 03:06:31 +0000

At 12:35 AM 8/9/97 +0000, Diana K. Rosenberg wrote:

>Reading books is an honorable pastime; it is my understanding that the
>eating of brains went out with the Neanderthals... DKR

FYI - Brains in a gentle parslied white sauce is still extant.

Maybe we all need to eat some...!

Can we get back to astrology?

Julienne

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 873-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**



Thread: FW:Bendings
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 02:19:19 BST



>I take exception to this particularly ignorant posting, just as I took exception to the pompous and arrogant response of JLL to a perfectly reasonable question from, I forget whom. I don't see this space as dedicated to people to plug their books, but as a facility for mutual discussion and help. JLL's response was to ignore the question and to puff her own cleverness by claiming some sort of authorship of the subject. I thought it was a disgraceful contribution. How many of us need to sign ourselves with our academic qualifications by the way, and what is the point of having those qualifications if their only use is to promote ourselves and leave others' questions unanswered?
>And what has this to do with eating brains or Neandertals? People with brains can keep to a topic.
>Jon
>
>
>
>>What is all the fuss? JLL cited her book as a source on this subject;
>>she was the one who went to the trouble of researching and writing about
>>it, and I do not believe she deserves to be mocked for not re-writing
>>the chapter on the Net! The full discussion of the subject in the book
>>is certainly worth more than a such a "sound bite" would be. Perhaps
>>"bendings" refer to unfortunates who need to bend over backwards to mock
>>their colleagues;
>>Reading books is an honorable pastime; it is my understanding that the
>>eating of brains went out with the Neanderthals... DKR
>>
>>
>>
>
>




Thread: Bendings
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 20:35:50 -0400

What is all the fuss? JLL cited her book as a source on this subject;
she was the one who went to the trouble of researching and writing about
it, and I do not believe she deserves to be mocked for not re-writing
the chapter on the Net! The full discussion of the subject in the book
is certainly worth more than a such a "sound bite" would be. Perhaps
"bendings" refer to unfortunates who need to bend over backwards to mock
their colleagues;
Reading books is an honorable pastime; it is my understanding that the
eating of brains went out with the Neanderthals... DKR



Thread: "Bendings"
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 18:06:05 BST

Come Come Michael. I can't believe anyone would do such a thing.
Jon

>Maybe 'the bendings' was created to sell a book...commerce by rumor!!!a
>new hip, hop, and happening technique to raise capital in desperate
>times!!!pay the rent already!!!
>
>
>Michael Jordan
>siderealm@juno.com
>
>On Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:56:11 BST jon@emarkt.com writes:
>>very helpful, JLL! Anyone without a book to plug like to answer the
>>question?
>>
>>Jon
>>
>>>dkirk@cats.ucsc.edu (David Kirk) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am new to horary astrology and have noticed lately references to
>>"the
>>>> Bendings" in respect to the Moon's Nodes. What effect does this
>>have on
>>>> the aspected planets/cusps being located at this point? Since it
>>is a
>>>> square is it a "difficult" aspect or does it have some special
>>>> connotation?. Any help would be appreciated.
>>>
>>>You'll find a whole write-up on the Bendings in my book, Classical
>>>Astrology for Modern Living, Chapter 10. I believe I can claim credit
>>
>>>for emphasizing its use.
>>>
>>>---
>>>J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
>>>P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
>>>Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
>>>Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>




Thread: Significator
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 03:51:45 EDT

Thanks Rick. Love the analogy to Zeus and his thunderbolts.

Uranus can't be used in traditional terms, which is the problem. It is a
prime example of endeavouring to apply the strict traditional methods to
something which is very much present day. We can look to Lilly for reference
in most other matters to ensure the correct signification, but not with this
one, obviously. I suppose the same would apply to electrical matters in
general. I can appreciate the 3rd house for communciation; the sixth house
because of it representing work carried out is a good thought. Like you,
I still tend to favour Mercury.

Thanks for your help

Angela



Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: angy@e-mail.com Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 03:36:27 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/07/97 17:22

>>fine, but what might the question be? I doubt the chart can give us a name.
Hi Jon,
.. would have thought the question should be 'Who did it?'

Angela

>
>Yesterday there was a tragic incident when a five year boy and his father
>were shot. The boy died, his father seriously wounded.
>
>Angela
>
>
>




---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Manchester shootings
From: angy@e-mail.com Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 03:36:46 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/07/97 19:10

>Isn't the moon void of course using traditional astrology? It will
>trine neptune but ...................

...so would you feel this implies the gunman will never be caught?

Angela

---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Significator
From: aselzion@ix.netcom.com (RD) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:36:47 -0500 (CDT)

In re High tech computer stuff...

Barbara Watters gives computers et al to the 6th house as a
utilitarian item, employed to make work easier.

I have seen the same reasoning employed in reference to the 3rd
house, as items of communication.

Since these devices were not in vogue (or at least not so far as we
know) in ancient civilizations, I would have to pitch a case for
Mercury if you mean them as devices of communication, or Uranus if you
are looking at the high tech (electronic), or nuts & bolts innards of
the darned thing.

Of course if you want to bring electricity into the matter, one
could also pitch a case for Jupiter. Remember Zeus flinging about his
thunderbolts (lightning??) in fits of royal pique? :)

Hope this sheds a bit of light in the gray area of significators.

Remember, if you are talking about the thing as a possession, then
you would still use the lord/lady of the 2nd house of personal
possessions. (or the 2nd house from your primary significator's as
THEIR personal belongings)

Pax et Bonum...

Rick (aselzion@ix.netcom.com)




Thread: Sadie Redux...
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:15:33 -0400

>> >> Well, isn't the point also that girls don't need a Sadie Hawkins Day
today to ask boys out? We've come a long way, baby...:)
>> All that Pluto-in-Libra-and-Scorpio, and all that jazz. :)

'bout time.


Allen



Thread: Manchester shootings
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:37:30 -0500

Isn't the moon void of course using traditional astrology? It will
trine neptune but ...................


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 22:10:12 BST

fine, but what might the question be? I doubt the chart can give us a name.

Jon

>*** Resending note of 08/07/97 11:09
>
>Yesterday there was a tragic incident when a five year boy and his father
>were shot. The boy died, his father seriously wounded.
>
>Angela
>
>
>




Thread: Sadie Hawkins Day
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:26:28 pdt

Thanks for the information and the wide smiles that your research
produced in me and I'm sure others. I had not known that Al Capp had
started it all. I am from Washington, D.C. where he published Li'l'
Abner in the Washington Post. My family worked for the rival newspaper,
The Evening Star, and the Wash. Post was not to be part of my literary
intake until much later in life. When the Star folded, the Post
started trying to look liberal to fill the gap, that was when I started
reading it. The Evening Star was regretably resurrected as the Moonie
Rag 'The Washington Times', where it remains today.

Thanks again!
Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:46:46 +0930 Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net>
writes:
>At 11:38 AM 6/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Anne Fryer wrote:
>>
>>> I am sure you were very witty - but there's always one person to
>spoil
>>> it -
>>> "Who or what is Sadie Hawkins ......????
>>>THANK YOU, DIANA - A WONDERFUL ANSWER. IT MAY NOT BE 'TRADITIONAL
>ASTROLOGY' BUT IT CERTAINLY SATISFIED GEMINI CURIOSITY - AND
>ENLIGHTENED ALL
>THE OTHER NON-AMERICANS. AGAIN. MY GRATEFUL THANKS. ANNE
>>> Ah, now here is my chance to make a contribution to the fine art &
>>> science of Horary Astrology! Sadie Hawkins Day was invented by
>>> cartoonist Al Capp who created the late, lamented L'il Abner
>hillbilly
>>> series - it ran for years when I was a kid (don't ask...); Sadie
>was
>>> an ugly, snaggle-toothed maiden lady w/huge, bony (bare) feet,
>>> perpetually & aggressively on the prowl for a mate; Sadie Hawkins
>Day
>>> in Dogpatch (locale of the above) was the one day of the year that
>>> such forlorn old maids could, if swift, cunning and tough enough,
>>> catch, throw, and tie down any unattached male and force the
>helpless
>>> wretch into matrimony...tales of this event went swiftly into
>American
>>> mythology, and tho Dogpatch is no more, Sadie Hawkins lives!
>(November
>>> is kind of suitable, since there is a fair chance of getting Venus
>in
>>> Scorpio then!) Love to all, Diana K.R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>


Thread: Manchester shootings
From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:05:34 +7

Dear Kent,
As this chart is an event chart it is read a little differently than
a horary. The Moon if not in applying aspect to another planet would
be considered void of course and therefore shows no action which can
mean that there is no action in the situation pertaining to the
chart. This can mean that as co-ruler of the chart that the victims
will not get any worse (the child is dead and so it can't get worse
there and the step father's condition will not get worst). Also on an
overall basis it could mean that the killer will not be caught. It
is not treated as a "warning" in an event chart as it is in a horary,
instead it is more descriptive than anything else. In the same
manner if the ASC of an event chart is in the Via Combusta, this is a
good indication that the victim is in very bad condition and probably
dead.
I hope this helps.
Love & Light
Carol
> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:37:30 -0500
> From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>
> To: william lilly <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
> Subject: manchester shootings

> Isn't the moon void of course using traditional astrology? It will
> trine neptune but ...................
>
>
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall


Thread: Significator
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:24:04 EDT


What would be the significator in traditional astrology for hi-tech stuff,
such as computers, Internet et al? In modern parlance it is ascribed to
Uranus, but what would it be in traditional terms? Mercury for
communication? Ummmmm ..... not if the subject relates to the inner
electronics or the actual workings, surely?

Regards

Angela



Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 07:42:50 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/07/97 11:09

Yesterday there was a tragic incident when a five year boy and his father
were shot. The boy died, his father seriously wounded. The gunman was
seen to run off, having fired three shots, two hit the little boy in the
head, and the other shot hit the father in the stomach.

Would members of the list be interested in doing an event chart on this
in an endeavour to see what it reveals about the circumstances and the
perpetrator? Details on the news this morning were that the father is, in
fact, the step father, and although in a serious condition, is not critical.
Both he and his wife have been put under police protection in case of further
attempts on their lives, and there is a suspicion that this was drug related.
Co-ordinates as follows:
Date: Wednesday 6 August 1997; Time: approx 5.05pm=4.05pm GMT; Lat: 53N30;
Long: 2W15

The time is an approximation, but the news report said "just after
5pm". A description of the gunman was that he was wearing a motorcycle
helmet, a green and/or purple annorak, black trousers and black shoes, and
had short brown hair.

I know many astrologers help with some police cases, and thought it could
be quite instructive to try and monitor the situation with horary as it
progresses. I'm not suggesting we forward any thoughts to the investigating
authorities, this is purely for our own information, to see how horary
can assist and guide.

I have drawn up the chart and it has the Asc as 12Sag19, MC at 15Lib26.
>From a very brief initial look, just to start the ball rolling, I would have
thought that Mars at 25Lib20 in the tenth house, could indicate a
'professional' killing, the tenth house being the house of 'authority';
Commanders in chief whether armies or town (CA p55); could the fact that
Mars is in his detriment, and also that Mars as a malefic thereby afflicting
the 10th, turns the 'profession' into a less honourable one than is usually
portrayed by the 10th? Mars is also the natural ruler of quarrels, strifes, and
contentions (CA p66).

However, this is prior to looking for significators. As an event chart the
victim is first house, viz Jupiter being ruler of Sag, however, there is
no other planetary presence there, so how would the two victims be represented?
Presumably the gunman would be represented by the 7th house, being opposite
the first, thus, Mercury being ruler of Gemini. Mercury is strong being in
his own house and exaltation and is separating from conjunction to the Moon.
Is the Moon still co-sig of the first house in an event chart? And would
that therefore mean that Jupiter and the Moon would be the sigs of the two
victims? The Moon rules the 8th house of death, and Jupiter is disposited
by Saturn, indicating severe restriction, thus could the Moon be representing
the little boy who died, and Jupiter his step father who is seriously
injured?

These are only a few initial cursory thoughts and suggestions, I haven't, as
yet, had chance to study the chart, but would be very interested in anyone
else's thoughts and suggestions if you would care to join me in monitoring
this tragic and perplexing incident.

Angela



Thread: Sadie Redux...
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:33:48 +0000

At 12:59 AM 8/7/97 +0000, Diana K. Rosenberg wrote:

>> >You know, I just realized that tho many American high schools have a
>> Sadie Hawkins Day, when the girls can ask the boys for a date, they
>> probably don't know where the name came from! You have to be as old
>> as I am to dig the roots. I guess there are compensations to becoming
>> antique...Luv, DKR

Well, isn't the point also that girls don't need a Sadie Hawkins Day today
to ask boys out? Oe even hog-tie them or whatever Sadie did? :) We've come a
long way, baby...:)

All that Pluto-in-Libra-and-Scorpio, and all that jazz. :)

Love

Julienne

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 873-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**



Thread: Sadie Redux...
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:59:19 -0400

Anne Fryer wrote:

> At 11:38 AM 6/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >Anne Fryer wrote:
> >>> "Who or what is Sadie Hawkins ......????
> >>THANK YOU, DIANA - A WONDERFUL ANSWER. IT MAY NOT BE 'TRADITIONAL
> ASTROLOGY' BUT IT CERTAINLY SATISFIED GEMINI CURIOSITY - AND
> ENLIGHTENED ALL
> THE OTHER NON-AMERICANS. AGAIN. MY GRATEFUL THANKS. ANNE
> >
> >You know, I just realized that tho many American high schools have a
> Sadie Hawkins Day, when the girls can ask the boys for a date, they
> probably don't know where the name came from! You have to be as old
> as I am to dig the roots. I guess there are compensations to becoming
> antique...Luv, DKR
> >
> >
> >





Thread: An Election Question
From: Hardaspect@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:32:36 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-06 14:36:31 EDT, you write:

<< I like 6th for unions and 10th for management.
My reason for this preference has to do with the long view so to speak.
The question I like to answer when questions of this nature arise is
"what does it do?" What does management do, it sees to the
interests ultimately of investors and makes money. In that process
management
has been responsible for abuses through the industrial history.
These abuses and the need to insure qualified workers were performing
jobs led to the existence of unions. The 6th is a house which also
has health interests and for that reason it and abuse
ultimately don't get along well. The 6th is a house of work, not
necessarily of career.
An argument could be made on the basis of inconjuncts that the
5th might be a better match for unions if the 10th is going to be
used for management too. I'm not going to get into how creative unions have
been
and now are today as opposed to management for the reason that I've
not got the statistical data to back that comparison to hand.
Suffice it to say here that management is most often the
actor and unions especially after the Air Traffic Controllers strike and its
aftermath
are now cast much more in the role of reactor. >>


I am looking at the UPS strike as an event chart and I use the line of
thinking as is given in Dorotheus of Sidon. Dorotheus wrote a manual
discussing horary, electional, and event interpretation. A House system was
used that is extremely similar to the horary method. The idea is that no
matter what kind of chart it is, the first House represents the person
initiating the action and the 7th is the other party. So, in the case of the
UPS strike, the company is shown by the 7th House and the strikers are shown
by the 1st House. You can use this same line of thinking in sports,
especially with Heavyweight Championship fights.

Basil Fearrington


Thread: Sadie Hawkins Day
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:46:46 +0930

At 11:38 AM 6/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Anne Fryer wrote:
>
>> I am sure you were very witty - but there's always one person to spoil
>> it -
>> "Who or what is Sadie Hawkins ......????
>>THANK YOU, DIANA - A WONDERFUL ANSWER. IT MAY NOT BE 'TRADITIONAL
ASTROLOGY' BUT IT CERTAINLY SATISFIED GEMINI CURIOSITY - AND ENLIGHTENED ALL
THE OTHER NON-AMERICANS. AGAIN. MY GRATEFUL THANKS. ANNE
>> Ah, now here is my chance to make a contribution to the fine art &
>> science of Horary Astrology! Sadie Hawkins Day was invented by
>> cartoonist Al Capp who created the late, lamented L'il Abner hillbilly
>> series - it ran for years when I was a kid (don't ask...); Sadie was
>> an ugly, snaggle-toothed maiden lady w/huge, bony (bare) feet,
>> perpetually & aggressively on the prowl for a mate; Sadie Hawkins Day
>> in Dogpatch (locale of the above) was the one day of the year that
>> such forlorn old maids could, if swift, cunning and tough enough,
>> catch, throw, and tie down any unattached male and force the helpless
>> wretch into matrimony...tales of this event went swiftly into American
>> mythology, and tho Dogpatch is no more, Sadie Hawkins lives! (November
>> is kind of suitable, since there is a fair chance of getting Venus in
>> Scorpio then!) Love to all, Diana K.R.
>
>
>
>
>



Thread:
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:40:39 +0000

At 07:56 AM 8/6/97 +0000, jon@emarkt.com wrote:
>???grades 6 to 12? Is this ages 6 to 12? surely not?
>
>Jon
>
>>
>>Michael Jordan
>>siderealm@juno.com
>>
>>Wit or nearly not enough of it. In America in grades 6 to 12 we
>>celebrate Sadie Hawkins's Day, when women are free to invite boys out

Actually, "girls" ask boys out. :)

Julienne



Thread: An Election Question
From: dockrasa@accessone.com (David Ockrassa) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:03:24 -0700

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:15:39 -0400 (EDT), Jude DaShiell
<jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> wrote:

Hi Jude, and all,

>I like 6th for unions and 10th for management.

Were it an election, it makes sense. But the event chart is a fait
accompli, not an election (or a horary), it's the birth chart of the
strike. As such, I still think the 1st has to be the originator of the
strike, i.e. the Union, and the 7th their opponent.

David

>My reason for this preference has to do with the long view so to speak.
>The question I like to answer when questions of this nature arise is
>"what does it do?" What does management do, it sees to the
>interests ultimately of investors and makes money. In that process management
>has been responsible for abuses through the industrial history.
>These abuses and the need to insure qualified workers were performing
>jobs led to the existence of unions. The 6th is a house which also
>has health interests and for that reason it and abuse
>ultimately don't get along well. The 6th is a house of work, not
>necessarily of career.
>An argument could be made on the basis of inconjuncts that the
>5th might be a better match for unions if the 10th is going to be
>used for management too. I'm not going to get into how creative unions have been
>and now are today as opposed to management for the reason that I've
>not got the statistical data to back that comparison to hand.
>Suffice it to say here that management is most often the
>actor and unions especially after the Air Traffic Controllers strike and its aftermath
>are now cast much more in the role of reactor.
>
>
>jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
>
>Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.
>

--
David Ockrassa
dockrasa@accessone.com


Thread: Sadie Hawkins Day
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <defaultuser@domain.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:38:15 -0400

Anne Fryer wrote:

> I am sure you were very witty - but there's always one person to spoil
> it -
> "Who or what is Sadie Hawkins ......????
>
> Ah, now here is my chance to make a contribution to the fine art &
> science of Horary Astrology! Sadie Hawkins Day was invented by
> cartoonist Al Capp who created the late, lamented L'il Abner hillbilly
> series - it ran for years when I was a kid (don't ask...); Sadie was
> an ugly, snaggle-toothed maiden lady w/huge, bony (bare) feet,
> perpetually & aggressively on the prowl for a mate; Sadie Hawkins Day
> in Dogpatch (locale of the above) was the one day of the year that
> such forlorn old maids could, if swift, cunning and tough enough,
> catch, throw, and tie down any unattached male and force the helpless
> wretch into matrimony...tales of this event went swiftly into American
> mythology, and tho Dogpatch is no more, Sadie Hawkins lives! (November
> is kind of suitable, since there is a fair chance of getting Venus in
> Scorpio then!) Love to all, Diana K.R.





Thread: An Election Question
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:20:12 -0400 (EDT)


Management may have to be placed in the 1st house and the Union in the 7th
depending on the flavor and content of contract negotiations.
This would especially hold true where Union give backs are
lobbied for and/or extracted by management.

> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:48:44 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Hardaspect@aol.com
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Subject: Re: An Election Question
> Resent-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:26:09 +7
> Resent-From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
> Resent-To: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>
> In a message dated 97-08-05 17:32:31 EDT, you write:
>
> << At 01:51 PM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >In the case of strikes - let's use the UPS strike as an example - which
> House
> >represents management and which House represents the party on strike?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Basil Fearrington
> >
> In a mundane chart, I would think the union is sixth house, management 10th.
> >>
> Thanks for responding. I was aware of the rulerships as you described them
> but I guess I was thinking more in terms of a court action where you have the
> 1st-7th Houses in question. Following William Ramesey's logic that I learned
> from Lee Lehman using sports) I think that the company (management) is
> represented by the 7th House and the union by the 1st House since they are
> the challengers to an existing rule.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Basil
>
>



jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.



Thread: An Election Question
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:15:39 -0400 (EDT)


I like 6th for unions and 10th for management.
My reason for this preference has to do with the long view so to speak.
The question I like to answer when questions of this nature arise is
"what does it do?" What does management do, it sees to the
interests ultimately of investors and makes money. In that process management
has been responsible for abuses through the industrial history.
These abuses and the need to insure qualified workers were performing
jobs led to the existence of unions. The 6th is a house which also
has health interests and for that reason it and abuse
ultimately don't get along well. The 6th is a house of work, not
necessarily of career.
An argument could be made on the basis of inconjuncts that the
5th might be a better match for unions if the 10th is going to be
used for management too. I'm not going to get into how creative unions have been
and now are today as opposed to management for the reason that I've
not got the statistical data to back that comparison to hand.
Suffice it to say here that management is most often the
actor and unions especially after the Air Traffic Controllers strike and its aftermath
are now cast much more in the role of reactor.


jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.



Thread: SUBJECT
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:56:29 BST

???grades 6 to 12? Is this ages 6 to 12? surely not?

Jon

>
>Michael Jordan
>siderealm@juno.com
>
>Wit or nearly not enough of it. In America in grades 6 to 12 we
>celebrate Sadie Hawkins's Day, when women are free to invite boys out





Thread: "Bendings"
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:56:11 BST

very helpful, JLL! Anyone without a book to plug like to answer the question?

Jon

>dkirk@cats.ucsc.edu (David Kirk) wrote:
>
>> I am new to horary astrology and have noticed lately references to "the
>> Bendings" in respect to the Moon's Nodes. What effect does this have on
>> the aspected planets/cusps being located at this point? Since it is a
>> square is it a "difficult" aspect or does it have some special
>> connotation?. Any help would be appreciated.
>
>You'll find a whole write-up on the Bendings in my book, Classical
>Astrology for Modern Living, Chapter 10. I believe I can claim credit
>for emphasizing its use.
>
>---
>J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
>P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
>Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
>Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction
>
>




Thread: Sadie Hawkins
From: spica@world.net (Anne Elliott) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:49:15 +1000 (EST)

>
>Michael
you said to Anne Fryer:
>
>But on another point the sarcasm clashes, and the need to spoil something
>disturbs me...
>
>Anne had said:>
>>I am sure you were very witty - but there's always one person to spoil
>>it -
>>"Who or what is Sadie Hawkins ......????

Anne does not have a sarcastic bone in her body. And by "spoiling it" I take
her to mean that it spoils it that we anglos sometimes need the American
punchline explained to us and take longer to get the joke.

Cheers
Anne Elliott



Thread: An Election Question
From: Hardaspect@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:48:44 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-05 17:32:31 EDT, you write:

<< At 01:51 PM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In the case of strikes - let's use the UPS strike as an example - which
House
>represents management and which House represents the party on strike?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Basil Fearrington
>
In a mundane chart, I would think the union is sixth house, management 10th.
>>
Thanks for responding. I was aware of the rulerships as you described them
but I guess I was thinking more in terms of a court action where you have the
1st-7th Houses in question. Following William Ramesey's logic that I learned
from Lee Lehman using sports) I think that the company (management) is
represented by the 7th House and the union by the 1st House since they are
the challengers to an existing rule.

Thanks again,

Basil


Thread: An Election Question
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 21:24:50 BST
Status: U

sorry, lost me here. What is UPS?

Jon

>On Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:51:13 -0400 (EDT), Hardaspect@aol.com wrote:
>
>>In the case of strikes - let's use the UPS strike as an example - which House
>>represents management and which House represents the party on strike?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Basil Fearrington
>>
>
>I'd take the 1st as the party on strike, as they initiated the action.
>
>While it can justifiably be said that management initiated it, by not
>meeting the demands in contract negotiation, the strike itself was
>begun by the workers.
>
>David
>
>--
>David Ockrassa
>dockrasa@accessone.com
>
>




Thread: Clean sheet VOC
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:18:31 pdt
Status: U

Not since the days of the blind allegiance to Raj Neesh the limosine
guru.....


Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:50:04 +0100 harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)
writes:
>Hi Michael,
>
>Many thanks for Al's thoughts on the VOC Moon.

They were not Al's thoughts , they were a distillation of many
astrologers who studied the subject. With my own observations as well...
>
>>The following text is the introduction of the Void of Course Moon
>>Ephemeris, conceived by Al Morrison which I have been re- publishing
>after
>>his death
>
><snip>
>
>>"Every few days there is a period which lasts from the
>> time the Moon completes its last aspect (angular relationship) and
>>before it enters the next sign
>>of the Tropical Zodiac when it is termed 'void of course.'
>>This period of time varies from a minute to two or three days,
>generally
>>averaging a number of hours.
>>During this time a unique set of conditions is in place regarding
>things
>>begun at this time.
>>When projects or events are initiated during this period, they
>generally
>>fail their intended purpose,
>>finding changed circumstances when the Moon moves to the next sign.
>>Appointments and engagements are broken without notification,
>obstacles
>>crop up unexpectedly, credentials turn up invalid,
>>and financial or material expectations fall way short of projections.
>
>
><snip>
>
>What about when the VOC Moon is making significant contacts to a
>person's
>natal chart?
>

A person who has planets deep in a sign according to Al and confirmed by
my own observations and many, many others is a person who can operate
effectively despite the void of course moon because they are still
receiving the moon's rays to their natal planetary positions.

>>This period is a good time to review previous commitments but a bad
>time
>>to make new starts. In politics, in the 14
>>presidential inaugurations since 1945, only four U.S. Presidents were
>>sworn in on January 20 during a Void of Course Moon Period, they
>were:
>>FDR's last term in 1945 (died in office), Richard Nixon's last term
>in
>>1973 (resigned to avoid impeachment), John Kennedy's last term in
>1961
>>(murdered in office), and William J. Clinton in 1997.
>
>hmm.... poor Bill - what could be in store...?
>
>Some interesting isolated examples but has any real substantial
>research
>been done into VOC Moon effects and electional charts?


Loads, about 300 years worth.

>
>For example, I can counteract your argument with a personal experience

Please, I am an astrologer give me some data in this specific case...


>where
>VOC Moon was making significant personal transits to my husband's
>chart at
>the time of an operation he underwent in hospital. I wondered, when I
>saw
>VOC Moon in Gemini for the election chart whether the operation would
>take
>place. It did and it has been very successful. My husband has
>recovered
>very quickly.

Very happy for your husband, but I have no idea what you termed a Void of
Course Moon.

(I should also say that TMars made an exact sextile to
>my
>husband's natal Mars in Leo on that day and that the last aspect of
>the VOC
>Moon in the electional map was by trine to that TMars. Regarding the
>VOC
>Moon, though, there is a bit of a story around this which might
>explain
>what the VOC Moon might have signified in terms of "nothing to worry
>about"
>but I won't go into that, here.

I've been doing this for a long time, Don't you be dissin' me in that
manner. Give me some data to work on if you want to make a statement
like that.

>On a more trivial note: A VOC Moon in late degrees Libra (which is
>then
>also via combusta) has, on the five occasions when I have tested it,
>been
>very productive in terms of my shopping for clothes for myself or my
>family

Via Combustia moved many years ago and is in the area of Antares in the
beginnings of |Sagittarius. Changing clothes is an ephemeral thing
anyway which doesn't fall in the domain of Void of Course Moon except to
validate it.

<snip>

I can only guess who put you up to this...


Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:43:25 pdt
Status: U


Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

Wit or nearly not enough of it. In America in grades 6 to 12 we
celebrate Sadie Hawkins's Day, when women are free to invite boys out and
take them to the annual Sadie Hawkin's Day Dance. This is generally in
the middle of November if I remember correctly, someone will correct me
I'm sure.

But on another point the sarcasm clashes, and the need to spoil something
disturbs me...

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:54:43 +0930 Anne Fryer

>I am sure you were very witty - but there's always one person to spoil
>it -
>"Who or what is Sadie Hawkins ......????
>
>>I agree and never meant to infer otherwise. Dancing requires a
>partner!
>>In the Moon's case however it nearly always Sadie Hawkins' Day.
>>
>>Michael Jordan
>>siderealm@juno.com
>>
>>
>
>
>


Thread: UPS Strike
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 14:41:13 -0400

What follows is my mundane astrological take on the UPS situation.

UPS workers/Teamsters Union went on strike at 12:01 AM EST. Since the
negotiations were taking place in Washington, DC, I used that location.

Taking the sixth house (24 Vir) for the union and the 10th (24 Cap) for UPS
company:

Union ruler sixth, Mercury, is in the 5th of risk-taking, strong in Virgo
approaching (but slowing in motion) Venus fallen in Virgo. Venus rules and
trines Taurus rising which would help except that Mercury will not catch
Venus. Mercury, the union leaders, is slowing down and makes its station on
August 17th/18th before it can contact Venus (refranation) which, at that
time, changes sign from fallen Virgo to strong Libra. The indication is
that union leaders may have to refer the contract to the workers (something
which they have so far refused to do).

Mercury is also contracts, so the union leaders have analyzed and
identified with the contract offer and regard it as the other side wanting
too much (loosely opposed to retrograde legal Jupiter in
Aquarius-of-disruptive-changes sextile UPS management).

UPS Ruler 10th, Saturn, in behind-the-scenes 12th, is in fall in Aries,
hemmed in (intercepted) and retrograde. Saturn of UPS management is sextile
to Jupiter in 10th. However, Jupiter is weak in Aquarius and retrograde.
Saturn does trine fifth cusp, calculated risk, but retrograde means
rethinking strategy.

Mercury and Saturn make no aspect, so union leaders and UPS management are
out-of-touch with each other. Both sides are dealing from weak positions.
Mars strikers are volatile and some altercations between strikers and
others have been reported.

Mars (workers) in sixth is separating from an opposition to Saturn in the
12th. Mars is detrimented and also hemmed in as is Saturn. The interesting
feature is that Mars is in the sign of Saturn's exaltation, while Saturn is
in Mars Home. It reinforces the opposition between two parties both dealing
from weakness with ineffective help from outside.

Both Mars and Saturn aspect Jupiter; Mars approaching a trine while Jupiter
is approaching a sextile to Saturn. I expect Jupiter is the federal referee
(in the 10th of executive authority, but out-of-sign). Jupiter in the sign
on the 11th-of-Congress cusp and close to the cusp, but backing away, is
additionally ineffective by opposition to Sun and Moon in Leo, square to
Fortuna. Everyone loses money and prestige on this one.

The union took the bigger risk by going on strike. Mercury rules and
squares second cusp which may indicate limited resources to finance a
strike. (Announced on TV that strike pay is $55 per week and striking
workers cannot qualify for unemployment benefits. Some workers have crossed
the picket lines to work; others are seeking work to replace lost income.)

President Clinton (Leo Sun in Sag decanate) did refuse to intervene saying,
"It would be inappropriate." Against the law would be more like it as legal
Jupiter (in fact-finding Gemini decanate) opposes him and rules
law-enforcing Pisces 12th. Sun (Clinton) is square Taurus rising in turn
ruled by weak Venus, rendering the President powerless in the public view.

Fortuna is semisextile to Saturn, inconjunct to Mars and square Jupiter.
The federal referee is out-of-luck and both workers and UPS company are
under financial stress with UPS in a slightly better position. Finances may
be the imperative that forces a settlement.

The Moon (public) is in the house of the union leaders, but different sign.
Moon trines UPS management (Saturn) and sextiles UPS workers (Mars), so the
public is sympathetic to workers, but favors management and opposes a
government-imposed settlement.

The two reportedly crucial issues are part-time workers and the union
pension fund. The union wants more full-time jobs; the company wants
control of the pension fund. Mars disposes Saturn and rules the
pension-fund seventh (second of sixth), so the workers are likely to retain
control and impose conditions. When Venus changes sign and enters equity
Libra, the workers may get more full-time jobs. With Mercury retrograde and
under increased worker pressure, the union leaders will have to reconsider
the offered contract more favorably.

As reported in the news, neither side wants a protracted strike. Mars of
workers leaves intercepted Libra for Scorpio on 15 August giving more
strength to the workers. It may be enough to force a vote on the contract.
I expect the strike to conclude when Venus leaves Virgo for Libra on 17/18
August.








Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Annus Tenebrosus
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 17:33:39

Lee

You mentioned the above-named work by Lilly, is this one of his almanacs,
eg. Merlinus Anglicus? Do you know when it was published?

Sincerely

Sue Ward

sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: "Bendings"
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix15.ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:59:30 +0000
Status: U

dkirk@cats.ucsc.edu (David Kirk) wrote:

> I am new to horary astrology and have noticed lately references to "the
> Bendings" in respect to the Moon's Nodes. What effect does this have on
> the aspected planets/cusps being located at this point? Since it is a
> square is it a "difficult" aspect or does it have some special
> connotation?. Any help would be appreciated.

You'll find a whole write-up on the Bendings in my book, Classical
Astrology for Modern Living, Chapter 10. I believe I can claim credit
for emphasizing its use.

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: Annus Tenebrosus
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix11.ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:59:30 +0000
Status: U

Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> wrote:

> Lee
>
> You mentioned the above-named work by Lilly, is this one of his almanacs,
> eg. Merlinus Anglicus? Do you know when it was published?

Sue -

It was not an almanac per se, but a discussion of the events
portended from 3 eclipses for 1652, published in 1652. It was
originally bound with Lilly's short treatise on eclipses.

I am using it in my classical mundane course, because it represents
an excellent case of theory and practice in one volume. And per
Lilly's predictions: he basically described the possibility of a new
form of governance as a result of the eclipses. We call what happened
the Protectorate, which was not a probable outcome in early 1652:
the Bare Bones Parliament was still sitting, and there was no reason
to expect that they would dissolve and pass their power to Cromwell.

Lee

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: "Bendings"
From: dkirk@cats.ucsc.edu (David Kirk) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:31:41 -0700

Hi group,
I am new to horary astrology and have noticed lately references to "the
Bendings" in respect to the Moon's Nodes. What effect does this have on
the aspected planets/cusps being located at this point? Since it is a
square is it a "difficult" aspect or does it have some special
connotation?. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave




Thread: An Election Question
From: dockrasa@accessone.com (David Ockrassa) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 07:16:36 -0700

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:51:13 -0400 (EDT), Hardaspect@aol.com wrote:

>In the case of strikes - let's use the UPS strike as an example - which House
>represents management and which House represents the party on strike?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Basil Fearrington
>

I'd take the 1st as the party on strike, as they initiated the action.

While it can justifiably be said that management initiated it, by not
meeting the demands in contract negotiation, the strike itself was
begun by the workers.

David

--
David Ockrassa
dockrasa@accessone.com


Thread: An Election Question
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 09:14:42 -0400

At 01:51 PM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In the case of strikes - let's use the UPS strike as an example - which House
>represents management and which House represents the party on strike?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Basil Fearrington
>
In a mundane chart, I would think the union is sixth house, management 10th.



Thread: Clean sheet VOC
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 12:05:46 BST

Very useful posting Michael, thanks. I remember hearing Al Morrisson talk about the VOC moon at an AA conference many years ago. Whence this ephemeris?

Jon

>Actually I copied you with an additional copy to ensure communication got
>through what at times was a steady flow of communication. Everything I
>sent you went through the list as well. The only test that carries
>through is everyday experience with this V.O.C. Moon.
>
>The following text is the introduction of the Void of Course Moon
>Ephemeris conceived by Al Morrison which




Thread: Clean sheet VOC
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:50:04 +0100

Hi Michael,

Many thanks for al's thoughts on the VOC Moon.

>The following text is the introduction of the Void of Course Moon
>Ephemeris conceived by Al Morrison which I have been re- publishing after
>his death

<snip>

>"Every few days there is a period which lasts from the
> time the Moon completes its last aspect (angular relationship) and
>before it enters the next sign
>of the Tropical Zodiac when it is termed 'void of course.'
>This period of time varies from a minute to two or three days, generally
>averaging a number of hours.
>During this time a unique set of conditions is in place regarding things
>begun at this time.
>When projects or events are initiated during this period, they generally
>fail their intended purpose,
>finding changed circumstances when the Moon moves to the next sign.
>Appointments and engagements are broken without notification, obstacles
>crop up unexpectedly, credentials turn up invalid,
>and financial or material expectations fall way short of projections.

<snip>

What about when the VOC Moon is making significant contacts to a person's
natal chart?

>This period is a good time to review previous commitments but a bad time
>to make new starts. In politics, in the 14
>presidential inaugurations since 1945, only four U.S. Presidents were
>sworn in on January 20 during a Void of Course Moon Period, they were:
>FDR's last term in 1945 (died in office), Richard Nixon's last term in
>1973 (resigned to avoid impeachment), John Kennedy's last term in 1961
>(murdered in office), and William J. Clinton in 1997.

hmm.... poor Bill - what could be in store...?

Some interesting isolated examples but has any real substantial research
been done into VOC Moon effects and electional charts?

For example, I can counteract your argument with a personal experience where
VOC Moon was making significant personal transits to my husband's chart at
the time of an operation he underwent in hospital. I wondered, when I saw
VOC Moon in Gemini for the election chart whether the operation would take
place. It did and it has been very successful. My husband has recovered
very quickly. (I should also say that TMars made an exact sextile to my
husband's natal Mars in Leo on that day and that the last aspect of the VOC
Moon in the electional map was by trine to that TMars. Regarding the VOC
Moon, though, there is a bit of a story around this which might explain
what the VOC Moon might have signified in terms of "nothing to worry about"
but I won't go into that, here.

On a more trivial note: A VOC Moon in late degrees Libra (which is then
also via combusta) has, on the five occasions when I have tested it, been
very productive in terms of my shopping for clothes for myself or my family.
but in these degrees, VOC Moon is making sextiles to my Moon and Asc. which
natally have a good relationship with Venus, dispositor of this transitting
Moon and natural ruler of clothes and fashion.

So, from these personal examples alone, I am inclined to believe that, as
with astrology, generally, it's not as simple as we might think. There are
so many other factors which might account for an outcome that we have to do
some very intricate screening analysis of qualitative data if we are to make
absolute pronouncements on what one particular factor in a map might signify
- otherwise there will always be contradictory examples to undermine the
validity of the claim if a broad generality is attached to that one
particular factor.

Pat.



Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:55:58 -0400

Hi, Tony,

>> You make a good point. However, I believe that the void concept has to
do with which planet does the aspecting (the faster planet) rather than
with which planet is being aspected (the slower planet). In Lilly's
convention and in the classical traidtion, faster planets apply to slower
ones.

And I contend that is the trouble with the whole concept and its "limited"
definition. So if a slower planet does not aspect another planet, then the
things ruled by that planet "hardly go on"? Things would go on, though, if
the slower planet was being aspected by a faster planet. Just because a
slow planet is not applying to a slower planet cannot mean it is void of
power (course) if in fact it is being aspected by faster planet(s).

>> The question becomes: What lies ahead of a planet before it changes
sign?

Plenty of potential as long as any planet makes contact with it and mingles
its energies.

I think we need to look beyond the "obvious" just like we had to do with
the average daily motion thing with Mercury and Venus which was so
confusing until further thought illuminated the essence.


Allen


Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@light.iinet.net.au> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:54:43 +0930

>Return-Path: <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Resent-Message-Id: <199708050227.TAA03002@mail1.halcyon.com>
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <cwiggers@mail.halcyon.com>
>Resent-from: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Resent-to: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Resent-date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:25:21 +7
>To: allen_edwall@compuserve.com
>Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:08:11 pdt
>Subject: Re: Void of Course Moon
>References: <199708032232_MC2-1C47-FEB@compuserve.com>
>X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4
>From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan)
>

I am sure you were very witty - but there's always one person to spoil it -
"Who or what is Sadie Hawkins ......????

>I agree and never meant to infer otherwise. Dancing requires a partner!
>In the Moon's case however it nearly always Sadie Hawkins' Day.
>
>Michael Jordan
>siderealm@juno.com
>
>



Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 04:14:00 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/05/97 08:59

>Allen,

>You make a good point. However, I believe that the void concept ........
>the question becomes: What lies ahead of a planet before it changes sign?

>Tony

But, isn't that the whole point of the current discussion? Viz, taking into
account what is going to happen before the planet changes sign?
Regards

Angela
---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:37:21 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-04 03:18:19 EDT, you write:

<< If such is the case, then the other planet, the one that is being applied
to, cannot, then be VOC himself, because of the interaction.
>>

Allen,

You make a good point. However, I believe that the void concept has to do
with which planet does the aspecting (the faster planet) rather than with
which planet is being aspected (the slower planet). In Lilly's convention
and in the classical traidtion, faster planets apply to slower ones. The
question becomes: What lies ahead of a planet before it changes sign?

Tony


Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:04:55 pdt

Tony,
What as if like in real life between say for example between potential
partners, where one slows up so that the other may catch them?

Your post brings up another dimension to this we have yet to explore--
that being the question of an individual planets' speed and direction or
intention of direction (in the case of a planet about to change
direction) while completing an aspect which will leave possibly it and
definitely the Moon Void of Course.

In the most recent discussion the mentioning of Lilly of the Moon's
"tarrying" in the sign conveyed a feeling to me that Lilly might be
referring the Moon's being in a slow state of travel and therefore the
promise of the moment of the contest might not fare well for the
questioner in a contest with the Moon in an extremely eastward condition
and slow while other faster relative motion planets are in the west.

...the stars in the sky akin to watching a street scene to astrologers
emerging from the middle ages like William. ...as above, so below...they
lived by this law of correspondences. Planets were beings upon the
earth,--people were celestial marionettes.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, 4/1/149
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
4/1/150
Are melted into air, into thin air:
4/1/150
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
4/1/151

-> The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
4/1/152
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
4/1/153
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
4/1/154
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
4/1/155
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
4/1/156
As dreams are made on; and our little life
4/1/157
Is rounded with a sleep.-

WS Tempest




Sincerely,
MJ

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:37:21 -0400 (EDT) TonyLouis@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 97-08-04 03:18:19 EDT, you write:
>
><< If such is the case, then the other planet, the one that is being
>applied
> to, cannot, then be VOC himself, because of the interaction.
> >>
>
>Allen,
>
>You make a good point. However, I believe that the void concept has
>to do
>with which planet does the aspecting (the faster planet) rather than
>with
>which planet is being aspected (the slower planet). In Lilly's
>convention
>and in the classical traidtion, faster planets apply to slower ones.
>The
>question becomes: What lies ahead of a planet before it changes sign?
>
>Tony
>
>


Thread: Clean sheet VOC
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:40:36 pdt

Actually I copied you with an additional copy to ensure communication got
through what at times was a steady flow of communication. Everything I
sent you went through the list as well. The only test that carries
through is everyday experience with this V.O.C. Moon.

The following text is the introduction of the Void of Course Moon
Ephemeris conceived by Al Morrison which I have been re- publishing after
his death for the last few years to try to get people to use this stuff
rather than just speculate about it. The proof is in the using. This
interpretation will change your life. And in my experience William Lilly
and Dariot would not disagree. My model of the Void of Course Moon
ephemeris adheres to the classic seven planets and the Ptolemaic aspects.
It does not use antiscions, contraantiscions, parallels or
contraparallels, not does it make any allowances for special dispositions
such as mutual reception.

"Every few days there is a period which lasts from the
time the Moon completes its last aspect (angular relationship) and
before it enters the next sign
of the Tropical Zodiac when it is termed Ďvoid of course.'
This period of time varies from a minute to two or three days, generally
averaging a number of hours.
During this time a unique set of conditions is in place regarding things
begun at this time.
When projects or events are initiated during this period, they generally
fail their intended purpose,
finding changed circumstances when the Moon moves to the next sign.
Appointments and engagements are broken without notification, obstacles
crop up unexpectedly, credentials turn up invalid,
and financial or material expectations fall way short of projections.
This period is a good time to review previous commitments but a bad time
to make new starts. The Void of Course Moon Period is a good time to do
routine tasks such as editing, filing, cleaning, editing, weeding your
garden, watering, resting, relaxing. Forcing yourself to take on new
things at this time increases your level of neurotic stress and gives you
loads of things to clean up after when the Moon is not Void of Course
when you should be starting things anew.
So take it easy during these periods and allow yourself to recharge.
Make as few commitments as possible
during the period and scrutinize the commitments which others make during
this period.
Creativity branches into new territory and results in new creative
circumstances.
Pandoraís Box opens and surprises are in store. In politics, in the 14
presidential inaugurations since 1945, only four U.S. Presidents were
sworn in on January 20 during a Void of Course Moon Period, they were:
FDRís last term in 1945 (died in office), Richard Nixonís last term in
1973 (resigned to avoid impeachment), John Kennedyís last term in 1961
(murdered in office), and William J. Clinton in 1997.

What is the basis of this?
The phenomenon can be traced to the Moonís motion and interactions. The
Tropical Signs of the Zodiac (circle of animals) represent the
circumstances (circle positions) that the Moon travels through in its
motion through the sky. The angular relationships which the Moon makes
with the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn in its travel
denote the interactions within the rapidly changing circumstances of the
Moon and the more slowly changing circumstances of the planets. When a
commitment is made in one Moon sign and there are no further interactions
(aspects) scheduled to take place until after the Moon goes into the
next sign (circumstance), the original circumstances no longer apply.
For example, appointments have to be canceled because unanticipated
conditions ensue. In politics, hidden circumstances emerge to take the
center stage. FDR was much sicker than realized at the time, Nixon was
much more corrupt than we realized, Kennedy was much more entangled in
intelligence intrigue than we realized, etc. What we do know is that
there was no turning back for any of these people. They were in the grip
of fate.

How may we take advantage of this knowledge?
It is fortunate for most of us that we donít live our lives in the
public crucible of world affairs.
We can change our appointments, or can refuse to enter into agreements
until the time is ripe and productive.
We can rest and meditate during these Void of Course Moon Periods. We
can ask others to think and reevaluate commitments they try to make in
these periods. Often they need little prodding to unearth the anomalies
in their positions. We can encourage others to take breaks and play and
feed their souls. Psychologically we may evaluate our internal need to
push on during these periods and learn much regarding our emotional
intelligence and the interplay between our intellect and emotions.

Final words.
The more we are forced to operate in these periods the more frustrated we
become. Donít buy a car, donít sign a contract, donít ask for a raise,
donít prune a fruit tree. On the other hand, if you feel the need to
toss a monkey wrench into an intolerable situation, schedule it for a
Void of Course Moon! If you want to throw somebody into a tizzy, keep
them to an appointment they made during a Void of Course Moon! Keep
track of the periods and see who calls you during the Void of Course
Moon. You will find there are a few people in your midst who will only
call you during these times and there are others who will never call you
during these times. People are born in these periods and they often can
operate when others are shut down for the duration of the period. As a
general rule they are bad with finances, but good at survival and
manipulating circumstances to their needs.




Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com


Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:08:11 pdt

I agree and never meant to infer otherwise. Dancing requires a partner!
In the Moon's case however it nearly always Sadie Hawkins' Day.

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com


Thread: An Election Question
From: Hardaspect@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:51:13 -0400 (EDT)

In the case of strikes - let's use the UPS strike as an example - which House
represents management and which House represents the party on strike?

Thanks,

Basil Fearrington


Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:53:19

At 09:06 2/8/1997 -0400, Tony wrote:
>Here is Dariot's definition of Void of Course:
>
>An analogy may help to illuminate this concept. Picture yourself (a planet)
>driving along a road (your course) at night. If you encounter not street
>lights (areas of the orb of aspecting other planets), then you are traveling
>void on your course. If your orb interacts with the orbs of other planets
>along your course, then you are not traveling void while that interaction is
>in effect.
>
>Tony

An excellent explanation, thank you.

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 04:59:18 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/04/97 00:11

>> An analogy may help to illuminate this concept. Picture yourself (a
planet) .......
If your orb interacts with the orbs of other planets
along your course, then you are not traveling void while that interaction
is in effect.

>>>If such is the case, then the other planet, the one that is being applied
>>>to, cannot, then be VOC himself, because of the interaction.
>>>Allen

Very good point, Allen; well illustrated.
Angela

---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 04:21:51 EDT

Hi Rodger, I think Micheal is quite right when he said this issue was in
danger of becoming 'fogged'; but in reply to your posting about the chart
on p 471, I don't quite see the immediate relevance; the Moon is in orb,
so it satisfies that necessity, true she will change signs before perfecting,
but that's material for another debate, another time, maybe. In this instance
she is applying before leaving the sign, ergo, whilst she 'tarryeth' in that
sign. However, in this particular judgement Lilly apparently concentrates his
attention on the solar influence.

Hey ho, as Sue said, at the end of the day it is down to whatever works for
us as individuals - and I guess the same applies to interpretation of ye
olde Englishe!

Keep well

Angela



Thread: Clean sheet VOC
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 03:54:17 EDT


Hi Sue, Sorry if my posts have been coming to you privately, they weren't
intended to, I assumed they were going to the List, I just pressed the reply
button to your postings. Please feel free to forward them to the
list if you wish.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Clean sheet VOC
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:32:43 -0400

Hi, Sue,

>> it is easier to post my _final_ comments (unless anyone has some
research to put forward) to the list.

I, for one, would appreciate hearing your final definition of VOC just one
more time in order to make sure I understand the same thing as you (this
due to all the discussion that has occurred with perhaps the original
definition being lost in the "skirmish"). Thank you.


Allen


Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:32:44 -0400

>> An analogy may help to illuminate this concept. Picture yourself (a
planet)
driving along a road (your course) at night. If you encounter not street
lights (areas of the orb of aspecting other planets), then you are
traveling
void on your course. If your orb interacts with the orbs of other planets
along your course, then you are not traveling void while that interaction
is
in effect.

If such is the case, then the other planet, the one that is being applied
to, cannot, then be VOC himself, because of the interaction.


Allen


Thread: ?apprentice
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:10:22 -0700

No: the Apprentice's address is http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
not demon.com.

Regards, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Annus Tenebrosus
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix3.ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:52:17 +0000

Since there has been some discussion of William Lilly's Annus
Tenebrosus on this Board, I thought some of you might be interested
in seeing a set of 40 aphorisms that he published as part of the
text. You can find them on my web page.


---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: ?apprentice
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 22:02:47 BST

I've tried several times to got to the Apprentice astrology site but it's never available. Can someone tell me do I have the address correct?
http://www.apprentice.demon.com
cheers
Jon




Thread: Clean sheet VOC
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 16:54:13

Michael and Angela have posted me privately on the matter of Lilly's
attitude to the void of course condition, so it is easier to post my
_final_ comments (unless anyone has some research to put forward) to the list.

Lilly's definition is clear, not simply because I have chosen to interpret
it in a way that suits me, but because his chart examples support that
reading. This isn't a case of his doing this once or twice by mistake or
through confusion or lack of understanding, but in every example of which I
am aware. This latter includes those of his workbooks that I have seen in
the Bodleian Library.

In the end if the definition, any definition, bears up in practice we might
assume some safety in that. If my reading of the definition is wrong, then
I'm not sure what Lilly was doing throughout all of those charts. I
understand the point that Lilly's own point of view might well have changed
with advancing years, but without evidence of that I don't see where that
leads us. We can speculate all we like, but this is insubstantial to say
the least.

Personal opinion plays very little part in this, if you prefer your method
then stick to it. All I have done is point out that I, like most others,
had been using the voc 'rule' inconsistently according to Lilly's method.

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 09:06:09 -0400 (EDT)

Here is Dariot's definition of Void of Course:

"Among the accidents which do happen unto the planets among themselves, the
first is when any of them is void or without course or motion which is said
to be when one planet separating himself from another doth not apply to any
other during the time that he tarryeth in that sign, and then he is said to
have his course and motion void." p.40 Dariot

An analogy may help to illuminate this concept. Picture yourself (a planet)
driving along a road (your course) at night. If you encounter not street
lights (areas of the orb of aspecting other planets), then you are traveling
void on your course. If your orb interacts with the orbs of other planets
along your course, then you are not traveling void while that interaction is
in effect.

Tony


Thread: Soccer stars
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@light.iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:56:29 +0930
Status: U

JOHN: In case you missed it -

Bernadette Brady and Lee Lehman wrote an article for The Astrological
Journal, Volume 39, #3 on "12th Century Castle Beseigement in Sport" which
judged sporting events by the same methods medieval astrologers would have
used for battles and castle beseigements.
=========================================

At 03:34 AM 1/08/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Denizens of Lillyland,
>
>Can anybody help me?
>For my column in FourFourTwo magazine, I've been asked to make monthly
>predictions for specific players. This is a golden opportunity to
>demonstrate traditional method before an unsuspecting audience,so I'd like
>to avoid the usual Sun-sign vagaries & make this as accurate as possible.
>
>Does anyone have TIMED data for any current Premier league players or
>managers that they would share with me? Or point me in the direction of
>somebody who does?
>
>Many thanks,
>John Frawley
>
>The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>
>
>
>



Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:33:41 pdt
Status: U

Allen,

I am surprised and honored that you would pose such a question to me.
Allen, i would like you to repeat it so I can be sure of it's content and
the authenticity. But as the question is poses itself to me in its
present form it does have to have application to be considered The VoC
moon has to be without further aspects while it is in a sign.


Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:50:16 -0400 allen edwall
<allen_edwall@compuserve.com> writes:
>>> It means very simply that if the Moon or any planet or the Sun has
>another aspect to make during its stay in a sign it is NOT void of
>course;
>while conversely, after completing all
>possible aspects in that sign, then it IS void of course for the
>remaining
>period of time in the sign.
>
>What bothers me is that many people think that an aspect has to be
>applying
>in order to be considered. If Mercury is at 29 Leo and the Moon at 20
>Leo,
>is Mercury VOC (assuming no other planet is at 29 degrees or later)?
>Since
>Mercury is receiving an aspect, how can one consider it VOC? I do not
>think
>it is. It isn't logical to say so.
>
>
>Allen
>
>


Thread: Versace's snakes
From: Songwomn@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:30:33 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-31 23:53:41 EDT, you write:

<< Mark Shulgasser wrote:
>
> I knew nothing of Versace's use of the Medusa as a personal emblem; but
> when I saw his bedroom illustrated in Vanity Fair, with snakes painted all
> over the headboard of his bed, I felt he toyed with negative energy and
> would end badly.
>
> End of premonition. >>

Dear Mark,

I'm kind of surprised that you might think snakes to be negative energy.
In my experience, snakes have been about growth and awakening on many
different levels - kundalini energy, self-realization and actualization.

Blessings,
Cathy




Thread: Orbs, Applications, & Circumstances
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:27:29 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-01 03:57:06 EDT, you write:

<< It would be very sweet of you to include your name so as to further
facilitate communication..however be that as it may, there is a whole
sign reference in your chosen identifier @aol...I hate to be nit picking
but by not including Ms. Angela Reeve's short, succinct, explanation
regarding application =as it pertains to the void of course discussion=
you run the risk of creating a false impression of the subject of the
thread and may unwittingly lead us off the road we are traveling along
together. I'm sure you didn't mean to risk that potentiality.
>>

What was the popping sound?
A paradigm shifting without a clutch
Scot Adams
I found this quote in Classical Astrology for Modern Living (The author of
this book is my teacher)

The thread of this discussion is about Change. If we were to apply the way
we use Void of Course Moon to Lilly's charts, to be blunt it just dosn't
work. I share Sue Wards viewpoint on Void of Course moon. I have only
recently been able to communicate with Sue Ward. My viewpoint on Void of
Course Moon started in 1990 when I recieved my first copy of William Lilly
Christain Astrology. I tried to apply the modern use of Void of Course Moon
to Lilly's charts, as I stated earlier it just didn't work!. I refer you to
Sue Wards work because she has been activly speaking on this subject for
years. I have not, however dropping the end of sign idea has helped my
delineation in Natel and Horary. Thank you for your responses I would be
more then happy to discuss the Charts Lilly left for examples and not just
the definition.

Humbly

Rodger B. Grable



Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:53:26 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-01 01:41:35 EDT, you write:

<< >"...the first is when any of them is void or without course or motion
>which
>is said to be when one planet separating himself from another doth not
>apply to any other during the time that he tarryeth in that sign, and
>then
>he is said to have his course and motion void." p.36
**************************************************
Nothing to my mind could be Clearer than that statement. That statement
stands on its own. It is rock solid. It means very simply that if the
Moon or any planet or the Sun has another aspect to make during its stay
in a sign it is NOT void of course; while conversely after completing all
possible aspects in that sign then it IS void of course for the
remaining period of time in the sign. That is as clear as crystal. That
is what he wrote. >>

Please explain to me the chart on page 471, in this is example the moon is at
29 degrees not only does he read it a sign the next sign for the profection
of the chart, but he clearly does not say she is void. This is his wording
to which is by example not just what we have interpreted "while or tarryeth"
When you can explain Lilly's example's away then I might say you have a
point. Oh and by the way Sue Ward is not my teacher although we think alike
on this issue.

Thanks
Rodger


Thread: Soccer Stars
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 03:34:48 -0700

Dear Denizens of Lillyland,

Can anybody help me?
For my column in FourFourTwo magazine, I've been asked to make monthly
predictions for specific players. This is a golden opportunity to
demonstrate traditional method before an unsuspecting audience,so I'd like
to avoid the usual Sun-sign vagaries & make this as accurate as possible.

Does anyone have TIMED data for any current Premier league players or
managers that they would share with me? Or point me in the direction of
somebody who does?

Many thanks,
John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 06:32:06 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/01/97 11:29

Apols if this goes thru twice, mix up with addresses! (Merc slowing down!!)

*** Forwarding note from AREEVE --DRBN006 08/01/97 11:19 ***
To: I5183310--IBMMAIL

*** Reply to note of 07/31/97 15:44
FROM: Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)
Subject: Re: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
Hi Sue,

I think, as we have said umpteen times in the past, we shall have to
agree to disagree on this one, before it becomes boring!!

>When else can anything 'apply' but from its current sign or whilst in its
current sign?

Surely 'when else' is a misnomer, the current relevance is 'how long for'.

>It is possible that he is merely underlining the fact ...........

I think you are absolutely 'bang on' in using the word 'possible'. That is
what will always be the problem, we are only discussing the 'possibilities'
of what Lilly meant, because of the changes in the terminology used 400 years
ago, and, as this discussion shows, words, like colours, will vary in their
translation, according to the mind of the perceiver. Lilly seems to me
to be perfectly clearly delineating the parameters of when an application
can be accepted, not the orb of application, but the time span involved;
and yet to you he is saying something entirely different. I have complete
and utter respect for that and will continue to maintain an open mind about
it all.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:50:16 -0400

>> It means very simply that if the Moon or any planet or the Sun has
another aspect to make during its stay in a sign it is NOT void of course;
while conversely, after completing all
possible aspects in that sign, then it IS void of course for the remaining
period of time in the sign.

What bothers me is that many people think that an aspect has to be applying
in order to be considered. If Mercury is at 29 Leo and the Moon at 20 Leo,
is Mercury VOC (assuming no other planet is at 29 degrees or later)? Since
Mercury is receiving an aspect, how can one consider it VOC? I do not think
it is. It isn't logical to say so.


Allen