Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:58:26 pdt

Dear Sue,

Thank you so much for your rapid response, you have a very nice website.

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:23:06 Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> writes:

>This is from the Justus retype of the 1582 edition:
>
>"The application happeneth when as the circles or beams of the planets
>come
>to join together by a corporal conjunction, or by aspect of the one
>half of
>their diameters..." p.28

I assume that the top quote is Dariot but I find it utterly incredible
for you to suggest that they are quotes describing a similar astrological
condition. Half of the diameters of the Sun and the Moon would amount to
one-half of one degree of a 360 degree zodiac. Talk about narrow
orbs...! This statement appears to refer to a partile conjunction and
when it occurs.

This next quote is the one which I have been trying to get you and your
student Rodger to address. Ms. Reeve pointed this out in the discussion.
This is what we (she and I) refer to when we we say that an
'application',-- for void of course determinations only-- includes the
whole time that the planet is in the sign. No mention at all of the
disclaimer of an applying orb, and no mention of a dissociate aspect.

This is the most basic concern of Horary Astrology. Without getting this
definition right no valid reading can take place. As Lilly says, it is
'''the first'''
**************************************************
>"...the first is when any of them is void or without course or motion
>which
>is said to be when one planet separating himself from another doth not
>apply to any other during the time that he tarryeth in that sign, and
>then
>he is said to have his course and motion void." p.36
**************************************************
Nothing to my mind could be Clearer than that statement. That statement
stands on its own. It is rock solid. It means very simply that if the
Moon or any planet or the Sun has another aspect to make during its stay
in a sign it is NOT void of course; while conversely after completing all
possible aspects in that sign then it IS void of course for the
remaining period of time in the sign. That is as clear as crystal. That
is what he wrote.

What he did not mention is that IF in rare situations (which I referred
you to regarding the Moon's most recent passage through Pisces) when
entering a sign the Moon can make no aspects during its entire stay in a
sign it is also in a void of course condition until it enters the NEXT
sign. This is just the manifestation of a very special and rare
geometrical condition.

As for slandering Lilly,... He grew up to a moderate education in the
classics; his father fell into great poverty; in his eighteenth year he
went to London and got a job attending to an elderly couple, his elderly
master died 6 years later, he then married his elderly master's elderly
wife, and in five years she was dead. At this point he was 31. With
20 Pounds in an annual annuity from the master's inheritance plus 1000
Pounds property inherited from the wife, his money plan was complete.
This is when he began to dabble in Astrology. Fourteen years later he
started publishing. Lilly was one of the first to place himself out on a
limb with predictions..the plague, the fire, etc. If he had
misunderstood the void of course moon he would not have succeeded. It is
clear from the material you quoted that he did have it right. That's the
only way that it works.

Morrison is another matter. I knew him quite well, he was my mentor and
we corresponded regularly and attended conferences together when we were
in the same city which was exceedingly rare.
Iit was plain in 1647 and it was plain in 1971 when Morrison dusted it
off. The only change he made to Lilly's concept was to add Uranus,
Neptune, and Pluto which pained the purist in him but he wanted it to
receive wide acceptance in order to revive interest in Horary which was
being smothered (along with everything else) by "Humanistic Astrology"
and its 'moralistic superiority'.

I hope that I have been able to adequately answer your questions
regarding my previous post.

Sincerely,



Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com


Thread: VOD
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:47:54 pdt

Rodger,--

Quoting:
Ms. Reeve's original statement (which was omitted):
"But surely we should note, as well as the word 'apply', the phrase

'during his being in that sign'? - which implies for the duration of
the
stay within said sign. This surely states the time period for
application of the usage of the word 'apply'. 'Apply' will still
mean when in orb, but 'during his being in that sign' gives the
parameters as being during that time span, not purely immediate, but
'during his being in that sign'.
Regards

Angela

--end of quote--

I am including this because you may have missed it. It is very clear.

Sincerely,

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:14:51 -0400 (EDT) RG4invirgo@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 97-07-31 00:55:13 EDT, you write:
>
><< A planet not in aspect is an unaspected planet,-- it doesn't
>follow that
> it is void of course as well What constitutes an orb of application
>can
> be quite arbitrary depending upon the strengths and weaknesses of the
> planets in question.
> Semisextiles and Quincunx aspects are dissociate (inconjunct). They
> always fall within signs of opposite polarity; an example would be
>Moon
> in Aries-- dissociate signs being Pisces Taurus Virgo Scorpio. The
> weakness of the aspect combined with the opposite polarity is what
>makes
> the difference in my opinion. >>
>
>an unaspected planet IMHO is a void of course planet because the
>planet is
>void of aspect ergo void of Course! As far as my hint was concerned
>look on
>page 109. I was referring to no beholding inconjuncts. There are at
>least
>two of Lilly's charts where the moon is void of Course , however in
>both
>charts the Moon would be applying to an inconjunct or Quincunx,
>however these
>Quincunx are in signs non beholding. Lilly explains Quote from the
>Table
>"These are called Signs inconjunct, or such as if a Planet be in one
>of them,
>he cannot have any aspect to another in the sign underneath"!! If you
>Study
>his charts this little hint comes in handy for the Void of Course
>Moon.
>
>Sue Ward has worked very hard to get this point across about the Void
>of
>Course Moon, So I refer you to her work. Its a simple basic truth,
>Its very
>clear that Lilly used void of Course differently then we do today.
>The Point
>in trying to clear it up is so you can do your horary charts better!
>I hope
>someday we all benifit from Sue Wards excellent work on this subject.
>
>Humbly
>Rodger Grable
>
>


Thread: Versace's snakes
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:42:25 -0700

Mark Shulgasser wrote:
>
> I knew nothing of Versace's use of the Medusa as a personal emblem; but
> when I saw his bedroom illustrated in Vanity Fair, with snakes painted all
> over the headboard of his bed, I felt he toyed with negative energy and
> would end badly.
>
> End of premonition.

Dear Mark,
I did not know that Versace carried his Medusa "obsession" that far -
snakes on his headboard!! Thanks for the insight. DKR
Omigosh! I was just about to send this off when I realized that Versace
had, along with the Scorpion, the figure of Ophiuchus rising - Oph was
called Serpentarius (in ancient cuneiform inscriptions, Nutsirda "Prince
of the Serpent"!!! Ophiuchus is shown holding (struggling?) with a huge
serpent (which is now considered a separate constellation, Serpens) which
originally was depicted coiled around his body; I think you have just
given me the makings of an article! Thanks again! DKR


Thread: VOD
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:14:51 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-31 00:55:13 EDT, you write:

<< A planet not in aspect is an unaspected planet,-- it doesn't follow that
it is void of course as well What constitutes an orb of application can
be quite arbitrary depending upon the strengths and weaknesses of the
planets in question.
Semisextiles and Quincunx aspects are dissociate (inconjunct). They
always fall within signs of opposite polarity; an example would be Moon
in Aries-- dissociate signs being Pisces Taurus Virgo Scorpio. The
weakness of the aspect combined with the opposite polarity is what makes
the difference in my opinion. >>

an unaspected planet IMHO is a void of course planet because the planet is
void of aspect ergo void of Course! As far as my hint was concerned look on
page 109. I was referring to no beholding inconjuncts. There are at least
two of Lilly's charts where the moon is void of Course , however in both
charts the Moon would be applying to an inconjunct or Quincunx, however these
Quincunx are in signs non beholding. Lilly explains Quote from the Table
"These are called Signs inconjunct, or such as if a Planet be in one of them,
he cannot have any aspect to another in the sign underneath"!! If you Study
his charts this little hint comes in handy for the Void of Course Moon.

Sue Ward has worked very hard to get this point across about the Void of
Course Moon, So I refer you to her work. Its a simple basic truth, Its very
clear that Lilly used void of Course differently then we do today. The Point
in trying to clear it up is so you can do your horary charts better! I hope
someday we all benifit from Sue Wards excellent work on this subject.

Humbly
Rodger Grable


Thread: Orbs, Applications, & Circumstances
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:03:48 pdt

To RG4invirgo,

It would be very sweet of you to include your name so as to further
facilitate communication..however be that as it may, there is a whole
sign reference in your chosen identifier @aol...I hate to be nit picking
but by not including Ms. Angela Reeve's short, succinct, explanation
regarding application =as it pertains to the void of course discussion=
you run the risk of creating a false impression of the subject of the
thread and may unwittingly lead us off the road we are traveling along
together. I'm sure you didn't mean to risk that potentiality.

I think that a discussion of orbs in the general, specific, semantic, and
linguistic dimensions would be quite informative.


Quoting to restore the context:

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:01:09 -0400 (EDT) RG4invirgo commented in this
manner regarding a message of MKJ to Ms. Angela Reeve:

>Have to disagree there Lilly didn't use whole sign at all. Not even
>sure if
>whole sign was a word the ancient used whole signs apply to our
>terminology,
>while there calculations were done with a process called Horary times!


What I said to Ms. Reeve:
><< You hit the nail on the head. We are definitely looking at a
>broader
> interpretation/application of the word "apply". This additional
> meaning may have roots back to the days when an orb was taken to >be a
> whole sign. >>

Ms. Reeve's original statement (which was omitted):
"But surely we should note, as well as the word 'apply', the phrase

'during his being in that sign'? - which implies for the duration of
the
stay within said sign. This surely states the time period for
application of the usage of the word 'apply'. 'Apply' will still
mean when in orb, but 'during his being in that sign' gives the
parameters as being during that time span, not purely immediate, but
'during his being in that sign'.
Regards

Angela


Angela, I quite agree.
The word orb had many varied meanings in the 1600's as well as now. So
as we focus our orbs (eye sockets) on an orb's (planet's) orb (domain of
influence) we can, perchance,open up the territory for discovery.


KING LEAR.
Let it be so,- thy truth, then, be thy dower:
1/1/104
For, by the sacred radiance of the sun,
1/1/105
The mysteries of Hecate, and the night;
1/1/106
By all the operation of the orbs
1/1/107
From whom we do exist, and cease to be;
1/1/108
Here I disclaim all my paternal care,
1/1/109
Propinquity and property of blood,
1/1/110
And as a stranger to my heart and me
1/1/111
Hold thee, from this, for ever.


In these lines from Hamlet 'orb' means the entire Earth:

But, as we often see, against some storm, 2/2/453
A silence in the heavens, the rack stand still,
2/2/454
The bold winds speechless, and the orb below
2/2/455
As hush as death


In this instance it means 'rounded'

PLAYER KING.
Full thirty times hath Phoebus' cart gone round
3/2/141
Neptune's salt wash and Tellus' orbed ground,
3/2/142
And thirty dozen moons with borrow'd sheen
3/2/143
About the world have times twelve thirties been,
3/2/144
Since love our hearts, and Hymen did our hands,
3/2/145
Unite commutual in most sacred bands.
3/2/146


>RG4invirgo again:

>Have to disagree there Lilly didn't use whole sign at all. Not even
>sure if
>whole sign was a word the ancient used whole signs apply to our
>terminology,
>while there calculations were done with a process called Horary times!

It was and is commonplace to refer to one's Moon being in the sign of the
Cancer, or "I was born, sir, when the Crab was ascending: all my affairs
go backwards." There are subtleties of meaning that require addressing.
We can't rightfully limit Lilly to merely one type of astrological
meaning for his words "apply" or "orb". There is hardly any subject in
astrology which has as much variation as this perennial discussion of
orbs. Much centers around the particular application (there's that word
again!) or question, and the time span involved. There are enormous
variations of meaning depending upon the nature of the information
sought. Take the term 'rising' for example. It can mean anything
occupying the clockwise arc from the Imum Coeli to the Medium Coeli or it
can mean proximity to the Eastern Horizon. And in this latter case it
can mean in the first house (about to rise) or it can mean in the twelfth
house (visibly rising). So many shades of meaning...

William Lilly was a modern man but just over his shoulder were the
middle ages. He was a product of the Renaissance revival of learning and
at the same time drank with gypsies. In Ptolemaic times the Earth was
perceived as residing within an orb termed the celestial sphere. The
Sun, Moon, and planets were orbs within orbs arranged according speed of
motion. So at any given time the visible orb of the Planet or Light was
at the same time connected to its spheric orb around the earth. The
distinctions between the points of light that were planets and the much
larger spheres which defined their speed and motion were blurred for
quite sometime. Copernicus changed much of the perceptions with his new
model of the Universe but the old traditional view took a long time to
perish. Language, as always, was caught in the middle. Lilly could talk
of orb in a general sense or in a specific sense. It is by its nature a
relative term and will undoubtedly remain so.

I'm an Aquarius Sun with the Sun at 23 degrees and Mars at 14 degrees.
I sense a profound difference of circumstances when the Moon enters
Aquarius. It has entered an orb of awareness for me. By the same
mechanism, but specifically focused, I can tell when the Moon conjuncts
Mars (event) and when it conjuncts my Sun (another event). When the Moon
leaves Aquarius, circumstances change again. My Moon is at 10 Scorpio,
when the transiting Moon passes from 30 Libra to 1 Scorpio there is a
definite change of circumstances. There is a unique moment (event) when
the Moon conjuncts the Moon and another (event) when my 27 Scorpio
Jupiter is conjuncted. The platic residual effects of Jupiter's late
degree influence make the cuspal transition to Sagittarius more difficult
to discern due to the over indulgence that the placement foretells !
When I awaken though I know that circumstances have once again changed.


Unique events arise out of circumstances. In my understanding, Void of
Course is a device used in horary to define two vectors of the same
event.

Planets provide that of an 'action' verb which is the aspect (Latin=
Angle) The implication is of two motive forces
intersecting.--(Expression, Communication, etc.)

Signs provide the 'state of being' verb, the circumstances (Latin= circle
positions). A 'stance' is a static condition with a particular
quality,----- (I know, I desire, etc.).

The differences of circumstances from one sign to the next are often very
pronounced. Virgo (analysis, discrimination) to Libra (balance,
equivocation). As the Sign changes a different set of planetary
connections through major aspects comes to the fore while the old one
becomes background. I think that the changing polarity form one sign to
the next is of great significance in the workings of these activations.

Sincerely,

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com



Thread: The Astrologer's Apprentice
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:32:11 -0700 (PDT)

Hi folks,

Just to let you know that the fifth issue of The Astrologer's Apprentice is
now available. Full details and extracts are on the Apprentice's website:
http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk

"Please renew my subscription to the Apprentice...I think it's the most
readable astrology magazine around, and the funniest - not many of them get
me reading extracts to my non-astrologer husband." - Liz Rooke, Oxford.

Contents of this issue include:

The William Hill Astrology Awards: Bursaries for astrologers - and how to
claim them.
The Land of the Rising Moon:We investigate the chart for Japan.
Neptune - The Short Version: Life too short for Liz Greene's? The
Apprentice tells you all you need to know.
The Planetary Glyphs: The significance of these familiar symbols.
Zulu! The eclipse of empire, as Zulus massacre a British army. We find
the astrological reasons why.
The Most Beautiful Music: How cultural changes have formed the astrology we
use today.
Labour Day: As the dust settles, how did Tony Blair pull it off?
Shakespeare's Guide to Astrology
Is My TV Repairable? Where's My Shootin' Irons? - horaries
The Theorem of the Bride: The inner meaning of number at the heart of
astrology.
Neptunia Replies: Our sensitive seer sorts out those intimate little
problems of technique.

You've not read anything quite like The Astrologer's Apprentice.

Regards to all,

John Frawley


The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Book on Moon VOC
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:24:49 +0100

>In a message dated 97-07-30 20:32:28 EDT, you write:
>
><< a book specifically about Moon VOC but I deleted the
> e-mail by accident. Does anyone remember the title/author/publisher?
> >>
>
>The Author is Maurice McCann.
>I believe it is available from Deborah at:
>Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com (Deborah Houlding)
>
>Tony
>


Maurice's e-mail address as given on the list was:

McMcann@aol.com


Pat



Thread: Pregnancy
From: Hideaki Kokubu <kokubu@est.co.jp> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:59:28 +0900

Hello

None of my clients hasn't asked about daughter's pregnancy, but a client
once asked me whether his girlfriend was pregnant. I remember Venus
conjuncted Mars in Virgo in the 5th, and I judged the girlfriend was
pregnant - it proved correct.

Regards,

Hideaki


Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:01:09 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-30 23:54:41 EDT, you write:

<< You hit the nail on the head. We are definitely looking at a broader
interpretation/application of the word "apply". This additional
meaning may have roots back to the days when an orb was taken to be a
whole sign. >>
Have to disagree there Lilly didn't use whole sign at all. Not even sure if
whole sign was a word the ancient used whole signs apply to our terminology,
while there calculations were done with a process called Horary times!


Thread: Versace/Medusa
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:56:13 -0700

Re: Versace, his logo of Medusa, and his murder:

As a fixed star person, I worked on the Algol angle on Versace's natal
chart for a bit, but with little result; you can put fixed stars on a
chart and solar arc them, and when they hit a planet or angle there will
be some action related to that star, so I put Algol (25Tau25 at his
birth) on Versace's chart and arced it 51 degrees, 33 mins to date of
death: it goes to 16Can58; his Miami Beach Antivertex is 16Can30. Then I
remembered that there is an asteroid Medusa, and I looked it up in Nona
Press' book (New Insights into Astrology): according to the book,
Asteroid 149 Medusa's Nodes are 9 Virgo-Pisces, exactly square Versace's
Sun! So I called Nona and she calculated (using CCRS) the position of the
asteroid at his birth; it came out at 18Gem23rx in his 7th, opposite
natal Mars, cnj natal Uranus, sq natal MC. It culminates on his relocated
Miami Beach chart where the MC is 17Gem39 (& sqs the MB 17Vir56 Asc). As
for the stars, that 8th house Saturn Pluto combo is deadly, dangerous and
known for assassinations, murders & violent deaths, as well as head
injuries (Saturn is at South Asellus, Delta Cancri; Pluto at Acubens,
Alpha Cancri); the reloc to Miami Beach makes Mars ruler of the local
8th; it comes out on the IC, opp Asteroid Medusa at the MC, & sqs Asc;
it's at Masym, Lambda Herculis (which anciently was not Hercules but
"Eidolon" - Phantom), and Black Hole V821 Arae. From the fixed star
positions on his chart I would say that Versace was probably inclined
sexually to S & M, tho whether this had anything to do with his murder is
not certain. I'd better stop here - this is getting to be a book! Best
wishes, DKR


Thread: Book on Moon VOC
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:29:16 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-30 20:32:28 EDT, you write:

<< a book specifically about Moon VOC but I deleted the
e-mail by accident. Does anyone remember the title/author/publisher?
>>

The Author is Maurice McCann.
I believe it is available from Deborah at:
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com (Deborah Houlding)

Tony


Thread: Pregnancy
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:26:27 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-30 20:30:37 EDT, you write:

<< When the question in a Horary is: "Is my daughter pregnant?" >>

I would turn the chart. The 5th is the daughter and the 5th of the 5th is
her pregnancy.

Tony


Thread: Hair designer sheers......lost? REPOST?
From: Vyri@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:20:35 -0400 (EDT)

>Dear Friends in Astrology, I have been learning and lurking, and lurkng and
learning
>for some time now in the shadows, and haven't really introduced myself
to the members
>as yet, I really do love this forum, and have greatly benefited
from it these
>last 4 months. I am hoping to inlist the members help with a horary question
I've experienced some
> confusion in delineating, so to those interested..........I had been on
vacation for awhile, and
>made the decision not to take along my expensive designer haircutting
shears, I had thought
> they would be safe in my home as I was to have it watched by my sisters
live-in boyfriend,
>who also had my house key at this time, but on returning home could not find
my shears.
>(stolen or misplaced?) There were a number of odd incidents that had
happened whilst I
> was away also. Among them my daughter's Salamandors kept in an aquarium
outside had
>been poisoned by spray paint, and a small cabinet that I had recently
painted was missing. My
> sisters friend is a Cancer man, 50ish, and I believe is quite eccentric. I
did not wish to
>believe that he had taken them therefore asked the question,"Where are my
scissors?"
>Underlying I have fearful subconscious thoughts about this man, we have not
always been
> on the best of terms, and I hold concerns involving his friends and
relatives around my
>neighborhood, if they may be involved in some type of vengeance wrought upon
my head.
> I have confronted him about the shears and his answer is a laughing
disbelief that I would even think he would do such a thing. Any light the
members might shed upon
> this figure would be appreciated.
As for
>my experience in Horary, and traditional Astrology, I have been involved
with the Rosicrucian
>Order Amorc, for the last 30 years, learning......lurking, and well, you get
the picture,
>I am a self educated student of Astrology, but had the great benefit of my
Grandmother's
>influence and her personal associations with some of the best well known
Astrologers and teachings around.
>The time of the question; 8:35pm/DST; July 18th, l997. Zone and date are:
Beaverton, Oregon
>/123W0l'/45N31'. I found Beaverton's Longitude and Lattitude at the Library.
I have Capricorn rising
>for this chart, which has Nebulous Neptune in the first, and Saturn (In
Aries in its Fall but
>in mutual reception with Mars in Libra in the 8th) conjunct the 3rd Cusp.
(Which I find
>accurately describes my state of mind.) Again thanks for any help........I'm
still looking
>but am more doubtful than ever about finding them....(have almost given up,
along with turning
>my house topsy-turvy in trying to find them.) Yours in Learning V Y R I
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: jewellstar@earthlink.net (Jewell Starsinger)
Reply-to: jewellstar@earthlink.net
To: Vyri@aol.com
Date: 97-07-30 06:40:56 EDT

Vyri@aol.com wrote:
>
> Dear Friend in Astrology, I haven't as yet heard from anyone in return
> about a question I submitted. I'm wondering, did I supply some wrong data
or
> something?
>
> Dear Vyri,
I apologize for leading you on. I calculated a chart and put in a file
with other stuff about your case. I had hope to follow along with the
dialog, as I am a rank beginner in horary. My purpose in contacting
you for the specific info was simply to follow the discussion.
I am quite a good spiritual astrologer, but that ability doesn't hold
water with these guys.
I suggest you post again. I have backed away a bit since I have a
deadline I want to meet.
Sincerely,
Jewell Starsinger
jewellstar@earthlink.net



Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:14:54 pdt


Angela

You hit the nail on the head. We are definitely looking at a broader
interpretation/application of the word "apply". This additional
meaning may have roots back to the days when an orb was taken to be a
whole sign.

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:45:55 EDT "Angela Reeve
UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> writes:
>
>But surely we should note, as well as the word 'apply', the phrase

>'during his being in that sign'? - which implies for the duration of
>the
>stay within said sign. This surely states the time period for
>application of
>the usage of the word 'apply'. 'Apply' will still mean when in orb,
>but
>'during his being in that sign' gives the parameters as being during
>that
>time span, not purely immediate, but 'during his being in that sign'.
>
>
>Regards
>
>
>Angela

Sincerely,

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com


Thread: VOD
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:04:53 pdt



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:53:20 -0400 (EDT) RG4invirgo@aol.com writes:

>The whole point of VOC is a planet is void if it is not APPLYING to
>another
>planet regardless of end of sign.

I don't where this idea of ignoring the circumstances (sign) of an
interaction (aspect) originated. It's not Lilly's notion.
According to Lilly, "All manner of matters
go hardly on, unless the principal significators are very strong,
when
the Moon is void of course. Yet the Moon performs somewhat when
void of course in Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius or Pisces".


> The Moon or mercury or Jupiter any
>planet
>at 29 degrees if that planet is applying to another planet and is
>still
>applying to another planet even after the planet changes signs the
>planet is
>not Void. However a planet can be void anywhere in any sign if it is
>not
>making a applying aspect!

"void" as you are using it and void of course are two different concepts.
Void of Course when referring to Mutual aspects is a planet which forms
no complete (partile) aspect before leaving the Sign it was posited in at
the time the figure was erected.


> If you want proof examine every Chart Lilly
>says
>the Moon is Void of Course in. A helpful hint pay attention to
>inconjucts or
>as Lilly says a planet in these signs can make no aspect for they are
>inconjunct. A Planet not in aspect is a planet or Moon Void!

A planet not in aspect is an unaspected planet,-- it doesn't follow that
it is void of course as well What constitutes an orb of application can
be quite arbitrary depending upon the strengths and weaknesses of the
planets in question.
Semisextiles and Quincunx aspects are dissociate (inconjunct). They
always fall within signs of opposite polarity; an example would be Moon
in Aries-- dissociate signs being Pisces Taurus Virgo Scorpio. The
weakness of the aspect combined with the opposite polarity is what makes
the difference in my opinion.

Respectfully,


Michael Jordan

siderealm@juno.com




Thread: VOD
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:53:20 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-30 02:45:04 EDT, you write:

<< Mercury
is VOC if Mercury makes no aspect to another planet prior to leaving his
sign. >>
The whole point of VOC is a planet is void if it is not APPLYING to another
planet regardless of end of sign. The Moon or mercury or Jupiter any planet
at 29 degrees if that planet is applying to another planet and is still
appying to another planet even after the planet changes signs the planet is
not Void. However a planet can be void anywhere in any sign if it is not
making a applying aspect! If you want proof examine every Chart Lilly says
the Moon is Void of Course in. A helpful hint pay attention to inconjucts or
as Lilly says a planet in these signs can make no aspect for they are
inconjunct. A Planet not in aspect is a planet or Moon Void!


Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:48:47 pdt



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:00:56 Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> writes:
>
>At 20:07 28/7/1997 pdt, Michael wrote:
>>Deb,
>>
>>It has always seemed to me that ol' Bill wasn't too sure about the
>Void of
>>Course Moon...his statements are ambiguous..

>I'm not sure what you mean by ambiguity, he is explicit so far as I
>can see.

According to Lilly, "All manner of matters
go hardly on, unless the principal significators are very strong,
when
the Moon is void of course. Yet the Moon performs somewhat when
void of course in Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius or Pisces".

Sue, this statement opens up the door.


>The Moon is void of course
>when it does not apply to another.

This is another source of ambiguity for many students due to the practice
of using a very large orb for the Moon's application which can extend
rays into the next sign rendering the definition flaccid.

>Lilly's definition is almost identical to that of Dariot, he didn't
>dream it up.

Sue, what is Dariots' definition and in what manner does it differ from
Lilly's?

> Yes indeed, he did make mistakes, but I think the most common
>error
>is made by us by assuming that because we don't understand it it must
>be
>rubbish, wrong or guesswork.

My take is that he hedged V.O.C.M. with parallels and Fixed Stars via
Combustia because either he wasn't sure or because he had no time to
analyse data due to the uncertainties surrounding the Scottish Revolt,
Two civil wars, the Commonwealth, the expulsion of the Parliament,
Cromwell, etc. After the Restoration he was on the outs with Charles II
due to his politics which were generally against the monarchy throughout
his life. As they say, he "lived in interesting times".

"Even from his own account of himself, however, it is evident that he did
not trust implicitly to the indications given by the aspects of the
heavens, but kept his eyes and ears open for any indications which might
make his predictions safe."--Encyclopedia Britannica, 1947 edition.

> The evidence does not support the idea
>that he
>made a mistake with void of course. (As a matter of fact, the basis of
>the
>void condition is 'application' or rather lack of it. Application only
>operates when planets are within orb of aspect).

Orbs can be arbitrary and the interpretations by some of these phrases is
to allow an orb to extend into the next sign. This creates a great deal
of ambiguity when 'application' is taken to be the condition within orb
of aspect only. Unless I am misunderstanding you, Sue, by your
definition it is conceivable that if the Moon was in the first degree of
a sign and Saturn was in the twenty-ninth degree of the same sign and the
Sun and the other four planets were in the preceeding sign the; Moon
would not be applying to the conjunction of Saturn, would not be Void of
Course, and would merely be unaspected. Would you attempt to judge a
chart in this condition?

What happens with the reverse condition when the Sun and the other four
are in the same sign as the Moon with the Moon at the end of the sign at
29 degrees and Saturn within the first decanate of the following sign.
Is the Moon in this case applying to Saturn and therefore not void of
course even though it has yet to change signs?

There is too much wiggle room in this for me to feel comfortable, and my
take is that Mr. Lilly, being the astrologer that he was, was not
comfortable in conferring judgement based upon it alone, but instead took
other factors into account because he had not completely made up his mind
regarding his definition of the Void of Course Moon.

The modern definition came, I believe, 300 years later with the work of
Al H. Morrison. He was troubled with the ambiguities of what appeared to
him an unfinished thought on the part of Lilly. One giant stood on the
shoulders of another giant and produced the formula which works
concretely.

After the Moon makes its last partile Ptolemaic aspect in a sign it
is Void of Course until it enters a sign in which it can make a partile
Ptolemaic aspect. (this is usually, but not always, the next sign it
enters).

The only wiggle room I would allow in this definition is that the Moon's
position is generally measured from its center and since the apparent
radius of the disk as seen from the sky is in the neighborhood of 15
minutes of arc, the edge of the disk enters the sign before the center
does. For apparent geocentric motion of 12 degrees per day this would be
30 minutes of time prior to the center entering the sign. If by similar
fine tuning we were to consider the Moon leaving an aspect to the Sun we
would have to take into account the radius of the Sun, the radius of the
Moon, the speed of the Sun and the speed of the Moon to determine when
true separation had occurred and the aspect (interaction) was over. This
takes about 65 minutes for the coming New Moon conjunction the first week
of August. It is my feeling that similar considerations with the
planets would be in order in fine tuning judgements containing these
special conditions.

Sincerely,

Michael Jordan

siderealm@juno.com


Thread: Pregnancy
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:18:51 -0400

At 07:08 AM 7/29/97, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>When the question in a Horary is: "Is my daughter pregnant?". What are your
>feelings about turning the chart? Do you use the 5th as the Asc and
>therefore look to the Lord of the 5th as the Asc Lord and the 9th ruler as
>the 5th? Or do you leave the chart as it stands?
>
>Love from over here,
>Miriam
>--

Since this is a question about someone other than the querent, I would turn
the chart.

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Pregnancy
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:32:34 -0700


Dear Miriam,

I think we're best to turn the chart as little as possible - but here we
simply must. Looking just at the 5th we're still involving ourselves with
the querent's fertility rather than the daughter's, though the general
nature of the 5th house will certainly be worth a thorough look.

Similarly illness - Lilly is quite specific that 6th, 8th & 12th should all
be read from the radical chart; but if I'm asking about my dog's illness, I
must turn the chart to find a different house for the dog's good-health
(her 1st) & her ill-health (her 6th).


It also makes sense - &, more importantly, works - if we're turning the
chart, to calculate the relevant Arabic parts from the turned Asc.

Best regards, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Book on Moon VOC
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:21:25 +0900 (JST)

Dear Fellow Willies;)

Someone mentioned a book specifically about Moon VOC but I deleted the
e-mail by accident. Does anyone remember the title/author/publisher?

Thanks in advance,

Neil



Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:45:55 EDT


But surely we should note, as well as the word 'apply', the phrase
'during his being in that sign'? - which implies for the duration of the
stay within said sign. This surely states the time period for application of
the usage of the word 'apply'. 'Apply' will still mean when in orb, but
'during his being in that sign' gives the parameters as being during that
time span, not purely immediate, but 'during his being in that sign'.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Pregnancy
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:32:24 EDT


Hi Miriam,

As I have learnt, yes, you would turn the chart and use the fifth house for
your daughter's asc, and then fifth from fifth (9th) for the baby.

Best of luck

Angela



Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: bob Larson <blarson@erols.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:45:21 -0400

>Just as a generalization, I would opine that Mercury rising before the Sun
>is a person who looks before he leaps.

...I've seen that, & read it..but,

Conversely, Mercury rising after the
>Sun is a person who leaps before he looks.

...not quite so necessarily: might try to look, but operates with
hindsight (20/20 or otherwise). I be one, & livin' it so (hindsight not
all that great either)

bobL


Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:05:13

At 05:36 28/7/1997 EDT, Angela wrote:
>Hi Tony,

>
>I have always had trouble with the perception of what Lilly was saying re

>VOC Moon. How do you interpret his words ".... nor doth forthwith during
his
>being in that sign apply to any other ....."? There is also another quote

>which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word
'notwithstanding',
>but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full

>reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC
if
>she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily


Note the word 'apply' in the quote. That is the crux. He is not saying
'makes aspects', he is saying 'apply'. It is completely different because
the former implies a simple movement towards, whereas the latter requires
orbs to be in contact.

>that she is in orb. I accept that is my perception of Lilly's use of the

>English language, but I would be interested to learn your views.


Apply means to be within orbs and moving towards major aspect.

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:00:56


At 20:07 28/7/1997 pdt, Michael wrote:
>Deb,
>
>It has always seemd to me that ol' Bill wasn't too sure about the Void of
>Course Moon...his statements are ambiguous...reasoning prior to his
>publishing of Christian Astrology and reasoning combined with research
>since then has led many of us to conclude that:

I'm not sure what you mean by ambiguity, he is explicit so far as I can
see. The wrangling that goes on about the famous definition on page 112 of
CA, is easily settled after investigating his chart examples.

>After the Moon makes its last partile Ptolemaic aspect in a sign it is
>Void of Course until it enters a sign in which it can make a partile
>Ptolemaic aspect.

I think this is what Lilly says isn't it? The Moon is void of course when
it does not apply to another.

>I think it behooves us all when studying to remember that Lilly proofread
>his own work most of the time and made mistakes just like all human
>beings do. Further we can only guess at how much mystical insight came
>into play which was not quantifiable scientifically but which
>nevertheless contributed to the Lilly legacy...shall we say, interpretive
>art?

Lilly's definition is almost identical to that of Dariot, he didn't dream
it up. Yes indeed, he did make mistakes, but I think the most common error
is made by us by assuming that because we don't understand it it must be
rubbish, wrong or guesswork. The evidence does not support the idea that he
made a mistake with void of course. (As a matter of fact, the basis of the
void condition is 'application' or rather lack of it. Application only
operates when planets are within orb of aspect).

As an aside, I agree with Tony that 'forthwith' means 'immediately', that
is, the next thing it does.

I wonder what our resident language expert makes of the infamous sentence?
Jon?

Sincerely

Sue


sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Astrologist/Astrologism
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:52:23 -0400 (EDT)

Pat - was just teasing J. F. with this and hope I didn't confuse anyone. Have
you subscribed to his new publication, The Astrologer's Apprentice yet? It
contains excellent technical information and some delightful humor. My best
guess is that astrologist was used was a euphemism for astrologer.
Astrologism might be what traditionalists call an aphorism, like those on
pages 298 - 302 of CA.

Maggie


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:28:10 -0400

At 01:47 AM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>This probably isn't a traditional source, but
>Message From The Stars By Heindel for purposes of determining the level
>of intelligence uses Mercury as a morning riser.

Just as a generalization, I would opine that Mercury rising before the Sun
is a person who looks before he leaps. Conversely, Mercury rising after the
Sun is a person who leaps before he looks. Other considerations aside (as
in the rest of the horoscope), I started my young life as a "leaper before
looker" and have the Mars in Capricorn scars on my knees to prove it. :)

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: VOD
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:11:40 -0400

At 05:25 AM 7/28/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi Kent,

>I would have thought that as Mercury is aspected before leaving his
current
>sign, that means he is not VOC. It will be interesting to hear the
opinions
>of others on the list.

>
>Angela

Opinion:

It would mean that the Moon is not VOC as that is the only planet which can
make an aspect to Mercury. A further consideration is that the Moon may be
translating light from Mercury to another planet. In either case, Mercury
is VOC if Mercury makes no aspect to another planet prior to leaving his
sign. The VOC consideration is a planet making an aspect to another planet,
not receiving an aspect from a planet. E. g., prior to the discovery of
Uranus, Saturn would always be VOC, since it could never make an aspect to
another planet.


Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:24:43 -0400 (EDT)

Hi Deb -
"Spearbearing" is a very ambiguous term in the Greek tradition. Ptolemy's
version seems a bit simpler, simply planets accompanying a luminary in the
sky, as if in procession. (I confess every time I think of spearbearing I
think of the intro. to one of the sections of the old "Rocky and Bullwinkle"
show). Spearbearing is relevant to people of rank and glory, because of the
appearance in the sky of a procession.
If you'd like some confusion, I suggest a chapter in Antiochus.
Joseph


Thread: Pregnancy
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:08:12

Hi all,

When the question in a Horary is: "Is my daughter pregnant?". What are your
feelings about turning the chart? Do you use the 5th as the Asc and
therefore look to the Lord of the 5th as the Asc Lord and the 9th ruler as
the 5th? Or do you leave the chart as it stands?

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:18:51 +0000

At 09:32 PM 7/28/97 +0000, Deborah Houlding wrote:
>Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>>The "scout planet" is the oriental
>>spearbearer of the Sun<
>
>Oooh Joseph - you've started with that 'spearbearing' thing.
>
>Tell me, what's the difference between a 'spearbearer' and a planet making
>a common old aspect?
>
>Fondly,
>Deb

Drama! Deb. :) Sort of makes it exciting to imagine all these dramatic
figures coming to life and acting out our charts. :)
(Though basically I agree with you...)

Love,

Julienne
Owner: CHA*OS Astrology List



Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:10:50 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

In a message dated 97-07-28 16:48:34 EDT, you write:

<< what Lilly was saying re
VOC Moon. How do you interpret his words ".... nor doth forthwith during
his
being in that sign apply to any other ....."? There is also another quote

which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word 'notwithstanding',

but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full

reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC if

she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily

that she is in orb. >>

Angela,

Judging from Lilly's examples, he allows the Moon to be void in the middle of
a sign when she is not within orb of an aspect and then go on to leave the
void state once within orb later in the sign. See the Presbytery chart for a
good example. From Lilly's examples, I assume that by "forthwith" he means
"immediately at the time of the question" while the Moon is in the same sign
as at the time of the question.

Tony


Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just
From: bob Larson <blarson@erols.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:22:39 -0400
Status: U

off the top of my head, & not having studied Lilly yet, but I think Zain
agreed & used hi as a ref on the subject, that VOC is the period between
last major aspect & change of signs? I'me new to this list & this thread,
& don't mean to be professing, but rather fishing for agreement or
correction.....

bobL

At 05:36 AM 7/28/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi Tony,

>
>I have always had trouble with the perception of what Lilly was saying re

>VOC Moon. How do you interpret his words ".... nor doth forthwith during
his
>being in that sign apply to any other ....."? There is also another quote

>which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word
'notwithstanding',
>but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full

>reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC
if
>she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily

>that she is in orb. I accept that is my perception of Lilly's use of the

>English language, but I would be interested to learn your views.

>
>Regards

>
>Angela

>
>
>
>


Thread: Scout planet/Planet in oriental appearance
From: bob Larson <blarson@erols.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:19:45 -0400
Status: U

I'm pretty darn sure that as long as you're accurately quoting excerpts, &
giving the source, you're ok. since I happen to have the book on my desk,
and appreciate the cue to reread that page, her it is at my risk (buy th
book-it's a good one):

Each person has been given special skills and abilities to help him fulfill
himself as an individual and as a purposeful member of society. Through
the technique of directive utilization {huh? -bl], we are able to recognize
these personal gifts and understand how they may be utilized and developed.

The term "Planet of Oriental Appearance" was coined to designate the planet
crossing the eastern horizon immediately before the Sun on any given day.
The POA at the time of our birth serves tas the significator of practical
direction. This planet will act as the agent of the personality within the
field of practical, everyday affairs and life experiences. It provides the
individual with a method and a direction of action to assist him in the
handling of the immediate demands of life.

The POA also reveals the particular things one should be good at: the areas
of activity and experience that should provide the person with the richest
harvest for his efforts. It represents how one's unique skills and
faculties can be put to their best possible use and how one may fulfill his
potentiality for practical and productive activity.

The significator of practical direction at the time of birth is the planet
in the birth-chart immediately preceding the Sun in a clockwise
direction-the planet immediately preceding the Sun in the zodiac. For
instance, if the Sun occupied the thirteenth degree of Scorpio on the day
of my birth while Neptune occupied the twelfth degree of Libra, Neptune
would be my orienatl-appearing planet if no other planet is found between
the twelfth degree of Libra and the thirteenth degree of Scorpio.

then he goes on with a paragraph for each planet as practical director, &
that was fun typing, but enough.

bobL

At 10:20 AM 7/28/97 +-200, you wrote:
>In the Handbook for the Humanistic Astrologer from Michael R. Meyer
(Anchor Books 1974, p 228) there is a section on the so called planet of
oriental appearance. As this is not traditional horary related, I suggest
those who want to have the quote from t
>his book, to mail me privately. Those who want this quote can get it on
their own email address.
>
>[If I am violating any copyright rights with this, will anyone please tell
me as I am not aware if this is a proper procedure]
>
>Manon Richard
>carmen@dds.nl
>
>
>


Thread: Astrologist/Astrologism
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:09:47 +0100
Status: U

>John - I am shocked that you don't know this one. An astrologist is an
>astrologer who gets the general gist of astrology while avoiding it's drift.
>An astrologism is an insightful tidbit of astro-philosophy on the order of a
>John Frawlyism but not as clever.
>
>Maggie
>


I'm sorry, Maggie - will you run that one by me, again???

Pat.



Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:16 -0400

Message text written by DENIS LABOURE
>But you are too optimistic, Deborah. A french group, with 300 members,
the "Fédération des astrologues francophones", tries to set the
interdiction of predictive and horary astrology. In all their documents,
it is forbidden to mention "predictive" or "horary". They want the
practice of couseling be reserved to these astrologers who have a degree
in psychology.

Stop this disastrous debate.
Go ahead. Thanks a lot.
Denis.
<

-- I know, its not all there yet, and when I say a lot more, that just goes
to show how bad it has been, and in some places it still is, but there has
been an improvement. The only solution is not to bother argue about it,
but to just press on with dignity -- and anyone who knows me will know how
easily I put those words into practise.

You should all just be more like me: quiet and dignified and perfect.

With graceful tolerance of your imperfections.

Deborah


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:05 -0400

Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>The "scout planet" is the oriental
>spearbearer of the Sun<

Oooh Joseph - you've started with that 'spearbearing' thing.

Tell me, what's the difference between a 'spearbearer' and a planet making
a common old aspect?

Fondly,
Deb


Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:10 -0400

Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>There is also another quote
which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word 'notwithstanding',

but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full

reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC if

she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily

that she is in orb.<

That is the way that I read it but I know that others disagree and they may
be right. Then again I might be.

Any kind of interpretatation is an art.

And that's all I have to say on the Void of Course Moon

Deb


Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:07:57 pdt
Status: U

Deb,

It has always seemd to me that ol' Bill wasn't too sure about the Void of
Course Moon...his statements are ambiguous...reasoning prior to his
publishing of Christian Astrology and reasoning combined with research
since then has led many of us to conclude that:

After the Moon makes its last partile Ptolemaic aspect in a sign it is
Void of Course until it enters a sign in which it can make a partile
Ptolemaic aspect.

Last week for example when the Moon made its last aspect in Aquarius it
was void of course the whole time it was in Pisces because there were no
partile Ptolemaic aspects that it could make. This was an unusually long
V.O.C.M. period and it was marked with many odd but typical VOCM events
regarding Cunnanan, Cosby, O'Conner.

I think it behooves us all when studying to remember that Lilly proofread
his own work most of the time and made mistakes just like all human
beings do. Further we can only guess at how much mystical insight came
into play which was not quantifiable scientifically but which
nevertheless contributed to the Lilly legacy...shall we say, interpretive
art?

Love to you,

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:10 -0400 Deborah Houlding
<Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> writes:
>Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>>There is also another quote
>which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word
>'notwithstanding',
>
>but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full
>
>
>reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not
>VOC if
>
>she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not
>necessarily
>
>that she is in orb.<
>
>That is the way that I read it but I know that others disagree and
>they may
>be right. Then again I might be.
>
>Any kind of interpretatation is an art.
>
>And that's all I have to say on the Void of Course Moon
>
>Deb
>
>


Thread: Astrologist/Astrologism
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:15:14 -0400 (EDT)

John - I am shocked that you don't know this one. An astrologist is an
astrologer who gets the general gist of astrology while avoiding it's drift.
An astrologism is an insightful tidbit of astro-philosophy on the order of a
John Frawlyism but not as clever.

Maggie


Thread: Scout planet/Planet in oriental appearance
From: Manon Richard <carmen@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:20:46 +-200

In the Handbook for the Humanistic Astrologer from Michael R. Meyer (Anchor Books 1974, p 228) there is a section on the so called planet of oriental appearance. As this is not traditional horary related, I suggest those who want to have the quote from this book, to mail me privately. Those who want this quote can get it on their own email address.

[If I am violating any copyright rights with this, will anyone please tell me as I am not aware if this is a proper procedure]

Manon Richard
carmen@dds.nl


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:08:01 EDT


Thanks, Joseph, very interesting; it is good to know that there may be a
traditional aspect to this after all.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:47:58 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U


This probably isn't a traditional source, but
Message From The Stars By Heindel for purposes of determining the level
of intelligence uses Mercury as a morning riser.
//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.



Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:36:31 EDT

Hi Tony,

I have always had trouble with the perception of what Lilly was saying re
VOC Moon. How do you interpret his words ".... nor doth forthwith during his
being in that sign apply to any other ....."? There is also another quote
which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word 'notwithstanding',
but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full
reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC if
she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily
that she is in orb. I accept that is my perception of Lilly's use of the
English language, but I would be interested to learn your views.

Regards

Angela



Thread: VOD
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:25:39 EDT

Hi Kent,
I would have thought that as Mercury is aspected before leaving his current
sign, that means he is not VOC. It will be interesting to hear the opinions
of others on the list.

Angela



Thread: Re Scout Planet &c
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:34:15 +0100
Status: U

>Can someone please explain to me exactly what is an Astrologist? If there
>is such a thing as Astrologism, I might like to try it.
>
>Many thanks, John Frawley
>
>The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>
>
>



John,

I first noticed this peculiarity in writings by people - possibly fringe
"psychologistst" - from early this century. It seems to be a confusion of
psychologist with astrologer. Probably means the same as astrologer,
though. What's in a name, etc. ...? Others may know more on this, however
.....

Love,

Pat.



Thread: Subscribe
From: Bonnyqu@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:09:44 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

Subscribe Bonnyqu@aol.com


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Leviam@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:57:12 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

Dear Joseph,

This is highly interesting, but what if the oriental spearbearer (receiving
an applying sextile from the Moon) and the Midheaven planet are in mutual
reception, but in averse signs?

Thank you,
Levia Shanken

>Looking for a specific significator of one's
>praxis, "it is needful to look both for the planet that has made its morning
>appearance before the sun, and that which is at Midheaven, particularly when
>it occupies the application of the Moon." The "scout planet" is the oriental
>spearbearer of the Sun, which makes sense for questions of career. However,
>this is only one of the possibilities for finding a "praxis" planet, but if
>you have the same planet that is also in the tenth house or the Moon's next
>application, you have a rather trustworthy determination on your hands.

>Joseph Crane


Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:13:11 BST
Status: U



>I'm more interested in UNIVERSALISM!! You mean you have no limitations?, such are attributes of divinity are they not? How honoured we should all be to read this ?material
>
>By Sense, do you mean Cents', as in "two cents' worth"? One of the values of tradition (in language as in astrology) is that it accumulates over time a body of shared understandings which form the basis of common communication between individuals. Unlimited individuals (if that's not an oxymoron) probably wouldn't be able to communicate with anyone, but then they probably wouldn't need to!
>
>cheers
>Jon
>
>
>>AMBurtell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrology. I
>>> will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
>>> means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.
>>>
>>> I am a UNIVERSALIST. I just study something and if I feel it fits in with my
>>> beliefs and is of use, I use it. I NEVER limit myself. If I limit myself in
>>> any way I feel as if I'm not being as much of service as I could be (in any
>>> field or endeavor I take). This is me. Each person can follow any belief
>>> system they wish, that's their choice. However, that doesn't stop me from
>>> believing the way I believe or reading or studying something that is of
>>> interest to me.
>>Easy. The purpose of this board was as a discussion group for
>>astrological ideas that pre-date 1700, or with ways to use these
>>
>
>




Thread: Re Scout Planet &c
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:13:30 BST
Status: U



>Well, scientism is an excessive reliance on scientistic!?! hypothesising, so perhaps an astrologist is one who consults a chart for the right moment to brush his teeth
>
>Jon
>
>>Can someone please explain to me exactly what is an Astrologist? If there
>>is such a thing as Astrologism, I might like to try it.
>>
>>Many thanks, John Frawley
>>
>>The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>>Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>




Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:13:43 BST
Status: U



>Are there any other psychologists out there? It occurred to me reading this that a traditional astrologer is concerned with objective events, a ?modern ?psychological astrologer is concerned with subjectivity, motivations & perceptions, as Frank says below.
>In parallel, a traditional psychologist interested in events would be a behaviourist, right out of fashion today, while all the running in psychology today is in the cognitive field, all perceptions and constructions of meaning.
>Funny ol' world, innit?
>Jon
>
>
>>At 07:28 AM 7/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrolgy. I
>>>will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
>>>means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.
>>>
>>As far as I can tell, a "traditional" astrologer is one who concerns
>>himself with events and potentials, rather than motivations and perceptions.
>>
>>Frank Ernest
>>You are invited to visit my home page at:
>>http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest
>>
>>
>
>




Thread: Mutable signs
From: Tom Nicholson <tpotts@metronet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:43:07 +0100

Jude, you wrote:

----------
From: Jude DaShiell
Sent: 27 July 1997 06:01
To: Sue Ward
Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: Mutable signs


I've been checking out some very old titles that discuss
astrology and there's reference to fruitful signs in one of the books.
Where do the fruitful signs fit in or is fruitful another
astrological alias?
//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.

Check out Christian Astrology by William Lilly (p89).




Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 08:24:07 -0400 (EDT)

I was interested that the "scout planet" this list has been speaking of turns
out to have some antique precedent. I quote from Ptolemy Tetrabiblos IV
Chapter 4 "On the Quality of Action," (I'm using the Robbins translation,
'till a better one comes out). Looking for a specific significator of one's
praxis, "it is needful to look both for the planet that has made its morning
appearance before the sun, and that which is at Midheaven, particularly when
it occupies the application of the Moon." The "scout planet" is the oriental
spearbearer of the Sun, which makes sense for questions of career. However,
this is only one of the possibilities for finding a "praxis" planet, but if
you have the same planet that is also in the tenth house or the Moon's next
application, you have a rather trustworthy determination on your hands.
Two comments: career matters are the only use I've seen in the traditional
literature of this "scout planet," and I would be loath to extend it to other
areas.
The second comment is that from my work it seems quite helpful for that
purpose.
Does anyone know of any sources which mention the morning riser differently
from the above? I would be very interested, thanks.
Joseph Crane


Thread: Mutable signs
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:40:45 BST

fruitful as opposed to barren

alan leo gives cancer scorpio pisces as fruitful and taurus libra sag aquarius as moderately so

jon

>
>I've been checking out some very old titles that discuss
>astrology and there's reference to fruitful signs in one of the books.
>Where do the fruitful signs fit in or is fruitful another
>astrological alias?
>//eoj
>
>jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
>
>Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.
>
>
>




Thread: Mutable signs
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:33:00 -0400

At 01:00 AM 7/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I've been checking out some very old titles that discuss
>astrology and there's reference to fruitful signs in one of the books.
>Where do the fruitful signs fit in or is fruitful another
>astrological alias?
>//eoj
>
>jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

>From de Vore's "Encyclopedia of Astrology":

"Fruitful signs. Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. The Water Signs. In Horary
Questions the Ascendant, Moon, or Lord of the Ascendant, if strongly placed
in any of these Signs, become symbols of children."

By contrast, the barren signs are Gemini, Leo and Virgo. In questions
concerning potential child-bearing, one looks to the Ascendant, Lord of and
planets in the first house, and the fifth house, Lord of and planets in the
fifth, to begin considerations for judgement.



Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:08:44 -0400

At 07:28 AM 7/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrolgy. I
>will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
>means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.
>
As far as I can tell, a "traditional" astrologer is one who concerns
himself with events and potentials, rather than motivations and perceptions.

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Re Scout Planet &c
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:14:43 -0700

Can someone please explain to me exactly what is an Astrologist? If there
is such a thing as Astrologism, I might like to try it.

Many thanks, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix22.ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 06:24:41 +0000

AMBurtell@aol.com wrote:

> First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrology. I
> will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
> means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.
>
> I am a UNIVERSALIST. I just study something and if I feel it fits in with my
> beliefs and is of use, I use it. I NEVER limit myself. If I limit myself in
> any way I feel as if I'm not being as much of service as I could be (in any
> field or endeavor I take). This is me. Each person can follow any belief
> system they wish, that's their choice. However, that doesn't stop me from
> believing the way I believe or reading or studying something that is of
> interest to me.
Easy. The purpose of this board was as a discussion group for
astrological ideas that pre-date 1700, or with ways to use these
ideas with astronomical matters (such as the discoveries of the outer
planets) that occurred after this time.

Unfortunately, the use of the term "traditional" is more ambiguous at
this point than "classical" (which I prefer) because so many modern
astrologers are calling what they do "traditional," which I am coming
to understand means "whatever I personally did before 1980."

While I certainly support your position politically and spiritually,
most astrological classicists would no doubt support the position
that modern astrology has done more to dilute Art than to support
Art. We have, as a classical group, come to rely on prediction as a
means of testing ourselves and our Art. And many of us have come to
wonder just what a lot of modern astrologers are even doing!

So: while a focus on classical method may lead to a narrowing of
options, there is a downside to universalism: the jack-of-all-trades
phenomenon. I think you'll observer, for example, that most mystics
pretty rigidly follow a religious sect or practice, then talk about
universalism AFTER they have experienced their vision. Attempting to
act the part BEFORE can often simply result in confusion or shallow
practice.

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: Mutable signs
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:00:51 -0400 (EDT)


I've been checking out some very old titles that discuss
astrology and there's reference to fruitful signs in one of the books.
Where do the fruitful signs fit in or is fruitful another
astrological alias?
//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.



Thread: VOD
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:49:39 -0500

On a chart I cast the significator is Mercury at 26 degrees. It will
not make a major aspect to any slower moving planet before it leaves the
sign. Before Mercury leaves the sign the Moon will change signs and then
trine Mercury. Is Mercury void of course.

Kent


Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Changing Signs
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:16:04 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-26 08:34:58 EDT, you write:

<< I believe that the Moon is Void of Course when she is not in aspect or in
the
moiety of orbs of the other planets. I also believe it dosn't matter whether
she is at the end of sign or not she could be void at any time she is not
making an aspect! I would be most interested in your Thoughts.
Rodger
>>

Rodger,

Maurice McCann has just published a short book that goes into this topic in
detail. It is called The VOid of Course Moon and is published by Tara
Astrological Publications of London.

Tony


Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Changing Signs
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 08:31:08 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-26 00:37:10 EDT, you write:

<< Here Lilly says the Moon is a little bit Void of Course >>

Jon,

Lilly regards the Moon as void of course when the Moon is not within orb of
applying to any aspects according to his list of orbs for the various
planets. In the Presbytery chart, the Moon is out of orb of application of
any aspects and thus is void by his definition. When the Moon travels just a
short distance in that chart, it will be within orb of applying to aspects
and will no longer be void. Hence he says it is just a little bit void
because it will not be void for very long.

Hope this makes sense,

Tony


Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: AMBurtell@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 07:28:15 -0400 (EDT)

I believe that since I started all of this about "SCOUT PLANETS" I would
chime in with my two sense....

Before I wrote my inquiry a few days ago I was first observing this forum and
noticing over the last few weeks that various types of questions were being
asked. I first tried to figure out what astrologist I could ask or look to
for help with my questions. I asked one fellow I know and he doesn't have
time to help me. I then felt the most logical place was where the experts
were located. I didn't want to burden anybody, but felt that if someone was
so inclined to help, they would. That's all I expected. I know that I
always try to share whatever knowledge I have with anyone, on any subject,
when I can. It's just my nature.

First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrolgy. I
will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.

I am a UNIVERSALIST. I just study something and if I feel it fits in with my
beliefs and is of use, I use it. I NEVER limit myself. If I limit myself in
any way I feel as if I'm not being as much of service as I could be (in any
field or endeavor I take). This is me. Each person can follow any belief
system they wish, that's their choice. However, that doesn't stop me from
believing the way I believe or reading or studying something that is of
interest to me.

Let me tell you a little bit about my background. I have a degree in
International Politics, I have lived and traveled to over 32 countries;
including China, India, Thailand, Switzerland, Russia, etc...and I'm only 30
years old. My interest in Astrology stems from the interest in people, from
all cultures, races and religious backgrounds. I also have studied world
religions for nearly 18 years.

I just keep on observing, living life, and trying to understand what is
beyond the surface. I have learned to accept people and their belief
systems, but it doesn't stop me from trying to understand the core root of
that belief system. I observe. I have my ROSE-COLORED glasses, but I absorb
as much truth, understanding, and depth as possible, wherever life leads me.
We each have our way of handling life and finding our happiness. That's
what makes life GREAT!

Again, thank you for the opportunity for me to be part of this worthwhile
forum in order to gain a greater understanding of what is going on in the
field. of Astrology today.

All the Best,


Ann-Marie Burtell



Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Changing Signs
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:59:58 BST
Status: U



>
>
>>I have pondered this question since 1990 when I received my first Copy of
>>William Lilly.
>>
>>Example 2 page 439 If Presbytery shall Stand
>>Here Lilly says the Moon is a little bit Void of Course What?
>>Page 442 From what I do find by this Figure, I conclude, that Presbytery
>>shall not stand here in England (statu quo) without refining and amending,
>>and demolishing many scrupulous matters urged at present by the Clergy; for
>>if we consider Jupiter as Lord of the fourth, we find the Moon, in plain
>>language, (after a little being void of course) run hastily
>
>he means being 'void of course for a little time', not 'partly void of course'
>
>I'm lost to understand the problem here
>
>jon
>
>




Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:47:41

At 09:43 24/7/1997 BST, Jon wrote:
>
>
>>At 17:42 22/7/1997 -0400, Allen wrote:
>>>Hi, Denis,
>>>
>>>>> Shall I become a professional astrologer?
>
>>
>>The 'shall' in the question is ambiguous. Denis, were you asking 'will I
>>ever be...' or something like: 'is it a good idea if...'. It's a small
>>point, but I've found that the 'will I ever' questions can often be
>>difficult to answer.
>
>
>Why would 'shall' be ambiguous? 'Shall' has to do with matters of fact in
the future and 'will' has to do with matters of volition. So 'shall I
become an astrologer' is asking about what is going to happen, 'will I
become...' is asking about what I want
>to happen.

This is exactly why I asked. Was there a specific opportunity to become a
full time astrologer or was it just a general question with no particular
time in mind.

>Incidentally, I imagine Lilly would have been more accustomed than is
current usage to the 'proper' conjugatons of Will and Shall, which are
quite bizarre:
>-about facts in the future: I shall, you will, he will, we shall, you
will, they will
>-and about matters of volition: I will, you shall, he shall, we will, you
shall, they shall

Others, better qualified than me, have said just this that his grammar is
very good.

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Scout Planet
From: AMBurtell@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:05:59 -0400 (EDT)

Hello:

I received a wonderful description of the SCOUT PLANET from Patti Ramsay, I
hope she doesn't mind that I have forwarded this to everyone. It is quite
enlightening. In fact, I think the Scout Planet may play quite a
siginificant role in certain charts, depending on the position of the Scout
Planet. In the case I was talking about, the Scout Planet is Saturn, and
Saturn is in its Return. SUN in ARIES in 5th HOUSE and SATURN in ARIES in
5th HOUSE, with the SCOUT PLANET in SATURN, and now SATURN RETURN. I like
the analogy to a PR person. Great way of looking at it.

See Below for further information on the subject.....
________________________________________________________-
The scout planet, or Oriental planet, (defined in Sakoian & Caulfield's
"Astrological Patterns") is ... "the first planet ahead of the Sun traveling
in a clockwise direction... The Scout Planet indicates the affairs of life
that are constantly brought to the fore and demand some kind of response, and
it
must be dealt with and handled effectively before the power potential of the
Sun
can be expressed." This Scout Planet is then is the planet that crosses the
cusps
and angles before the Sun does, with no planets in between. The diurnal
motion is
the apparent clockwise motion of the sky/zodiac/ecliptic/planets. In other
words,
if you are looking at the sun in the daytime, and watch as it travels
westward to
the setting horizon (or symbolically the Descendant), imagine it traveling
"back-
ward" through the houses. At noon, it is near the Midheaven. In a couple of
hours,
roughly, it passes back through the cusp of the ninth house, then the
eighth, then
it sets near the Descendent. Imagine a Scout Planet traveling ahead of the
Sun
(usually venus or mercury, but of course it can be any planet). This Scout
"scopes
out" the territory, so to speak; I believe that by its own planetary nature,
the
sign it's in, and its house, as well as the house/s it rules, that shows the
type
of energy that is "set up" for the sun's trip. It's sort of like a PR person
or
agent that meets everyone first, greets the people, sets the mood, tells them
what IT wants them to know, and the SUN enters. You have to deal with the
situation
as the Scout Planet set it up before you can then be free to be your sun. In
your case,
Saturn would tend to create a somewhat somber atmosphere, with limits and
rules, and substance, but it really depends on its sign, house, rulerships,
aspects,
etc. Imagine entering a room (House in your chart) before you do. Imagine it
entering
your workplace, home, neighborhood, relationships, etc., before you do. Quite
a
different situation from my entering my life areas after Venus has put in her
appearance!

Ann-Marie (Thanks to Patti for Scout Planet description....)


Thread: Lee Lehman/Three Wise Men
From: DENIS LABOURE <Laboure@wanadoo.fr> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:15:47 +0200

Dear Lee,

In your excellent "Classical astrology for modern living", you write :
"The Astrologers could not have used either some form of locational
astrology, or found where a previous eclipse or major conjonction was
angular." (page 23)

We'll never know the technique they used. But Matthiew 2,2 gives a part
of the answer. "The rising star" is consistent with the astrology of
this period.It was not an eclipse and the ascendant was the angle they
used.

Denis.


Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Changing Signs
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:48:40 -0400 (EDT)

I have pondered this question since 1990 when I received my first Copy of
William Lilly.
Modern definition of Void of Course
Olivia Barclay The aspects made by the Moon include any made from the sign
in which it is placed. Once the Moon has left the sign it is in, matters are
beyond the scope of the question pondered. The situation has begun a new
chapter. If the Moon makes no aspect between its present position and the end
of the sign it is in, it is called void of course, meaning there is nothing
you can do about it. (Horary Rediscovered)
Anthony Louis also gives a similar definition and gives us useful information
of how Ivy Jacobson, Marc Edmund Jones and others view this condition of the
moon. For fear the post would run to long I refer you to his book on horary.

William Lilly's definition
A Planet is Void of course, when he is separated from a Planet, nor doth
forth with, during his being in that Sign, apply to any other: This is most
usually in the Moon; in judgements do you carefully observe whether she be
void of course yea or no; you shall seldom see a business go handsomely
forward when she is so.
My debate is where does he say end of sign, or changing of sign, or current
position of the Moon???
I think we all would agree any planet changing a sign has an effect for one
the ruler of the new sign and essential dignities of the new sign change
however, in Lilly's chart examples, the current position of the moon is never
used. He would see the last aspect the moon made, then go to the current
aspects, then to the future aspects. Sometimes the last aspect the moon made
was in another sign. This he would write in the middle of the Chart.

Chart Example page 165 C.A.
Here the Ascendant and the Moon are significators of the Ship, and those that
sail in her: the Moon lately separated from a square of Saturn, Lord of the
eighth and ninth, then at time of the Question void of course; but afterwards
first applyed to a trine of Saturn, then to Opposition of Mercury, Lord of
the twelfth & fourth; this showed the Ship had lately been in danger (of
Death) viz. shipwreck: and as the Moon had been void of course, so had no
news been heard of her; (the ship)
Here the Moon is not only the co ruler but significator of the Ship. The
actual square happened in the sign before and was void in that sign and into
the next sign until she trined Saturn. My concern is if we were to judge
this chart today without looking at the last aspect, but focused on the
current aspect which is trine Saturn would we have had the insight that the
ship had been in danger. The Moon was void from the previous aspect to the
change of sign into Virgo does this hold true to the Modern definition of
Void of Course?
One argument could be that Lilly said it was void only in Leo and when it
changed signs to Virgo she was no longer void which is weak at best. The
reason she was void was because she wasn't in aspect regardless of end of
sign!!

Example 2 page 439 If Presbytery shall Stand
Here Lilly says the Moon is a little bit Void of Course What?
Page 442 From what I do find by this Figure, I conclude, that Presbytery
shall not stand here in England (statu quo) without refining and amending,
and demolishing many scrupulous matters urged at present by the Clergy; for
if we consider Jupiter as Lord of the fourth, we find the Moon, in plain
language, (after a little being void of course) run hastily to the square of
Mars and Jupiter; intimating, the Commonalty will defraud the expectation of
the Clergy, and so strongly oppose them, that the end hereof shall wholly
delude the expectation of the Clergy.
Ok Moons position in the Chart is 13.37 Libra Mars is 25.40 Cancer and
Jupiter is 28.24 Cancer Moiety of the Moons orb is 6 Mars moiety is 3 1/2
and Jupiter is 6 In order for the Moon to aspect Mars you add 6 plus 3 1/2
= 9 1/2 orb and Jupiter has a 12 degree orb. The Moon is 12 degree's away
from Mars and 15 degrees from Jupiter ergo a little being void of course!!

Example 3 page 471 A Lady of her Husband imprisoned, when he should be
delivered?
Here is the most convincing proof so far!! The Moon is at 29 degree's but
she has applying aspects to Saturn by sextile and Trine to Jupiter and she is
in reception with Jupiter the next sign she will be in. I'm aware of the
idea that: the answer to this question was perfected the day before and thats
why Lilly left out the term Void of Course. I strongly disagree! The reason
why Lilly didn't call this a Void of Course Moon is because she wasn't void!!

I believe that the Moon is Void of Course when she is not in aspect or in the
moiety of orbs of the other planets. I also believe it dosn't matter whether
she is at the end of sign or not she could be void at any time she is not
making an aspect! I would be most interested in your Thoughts.
Rodger


Thread: Andrew Cunanan
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:10:01 -0700

Dear Jonathon and Fellow Horary lovers,

Here is what I have gathered 'after the fact' about the Versace murder and
the subsequent suicide of Andrew Cunanan. I was unable to find an exact time
given for the murder of Versace. However, I was able to find the time that
Versace left his mansion, as reported in the nytimes and the nbc tv program
'dateline' as 8:30 am EDT (4) Tuesday (a mars day).

Versace leaves his mansion

     15 Jul 1997
     8.30 A.M. (4)
     80.11 WEST
     25.47 NORTH
     02H  42M  51S
     Regiomontanus
                 17 GEM             13 TAU             10 ARI
                     *                *                *
                                      *
                        *             *             *
     18 CAN                           *                            12 PIS
          *                *          *          *                *
              *                       *              SN22Pis  *
        SU23Can   *           *       *SA20Ari*           *
        ME13Leo       *               *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                              *               *
                             *                 *             JU20AquR
     16 LEO ******************                 ******************* 16 AQU
        VE20Leo              *                 *
                              *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                      *               *               *      UR07AquR
                  *           *MA12Lib*       *           *  NE28CprR
              *  NN22Vir              *                       *
          *                *          *          *                *
     12 VIR                           *                            18 CPR
                        *             * PF16Sag     *
                                      * PL02Sag
                     *                * MO23Sco        *
                 10 LIB             13 SCO             17 SAG

The hour ruler is the Sun, as well as the ruler of the ascendent. Versace,
and did not have a bodyguard, as a man of his stature normally would on his
final walk. This lack of self-preservation is indicated by his ruler in the
12th and peregrine in Cancer. He might not have been fully awake as he left
his home that fateful morning. Versace is also represented by planets in the
1st. Versace, the famous fashion designer is well described with Venus in
elegant Leo in the 1st, in partile opposition to the ruler of the 8th house,
Jupiter, which itself is placed in the 7th of open enemies. The antiscion of
the ascendent is on the mc, noting Versace's immense fame. So far this
describes the victim.

The ruler of the 7th and planets in the 7th will describe the murderer,
Andrew Cunanan. Aquarius is on the cusp of the 7th with a retrograde Jupiter
tenented therein. As I watched the live footage of Cunanan final refuge, the
houseboat, I couldn't help but think of Tony's recent remark, " Aquarius
often signifies locations where a liquid meets a solid." Lilly said, "for
fugitives have respect for the Moon, being the natural significatrix of
them, by reason of her quick motion" (CA328). The Moon is in Scorpio in the
4th house. The 4th house points north, and Scorpio points north east.
Aquarius is on the 7th, (the fugitive CA328) points west by north, so the
prevailing direction is north. Cunanan was 2 miles north of where Versace
was killed. Aquarius also indicates high places, and I have heard
unofficially that Cunanan's body was found on the top floor of the house
boat. That Cunanan would be found and that he shot himself (to me) is
represented by the Moon in scorpio in the 4th house of the grave is on the
antiscion of Uranus (explosions) who is itself retrograde. " Moon joined to
a infortune, or to a planet retrograde, he shall be found or come again,
having endured much misery since his departure." (CA329)



jonathon wrote:
>I suggest the best chance would be found from the chart erected for the time
>and place of the shooting - can anyone supply that accurately from the USA,
>please. I couldn't find an exact time in the UK media.
>Thanks,
>Jonathon
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>



Thread: Versace
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:08:41 -0400 (EDT)

Jim Savage, Investigations Editor of the Miami Herald, states the time of
Versace shooting was 8:44 AM EDT July 15, 1997, Miami Beach FL.

Maggie






Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:01:28 +0000

At 04:50 PM 7/24/97 +0000, J. Lee Lehman wrote:

And with this anti-scholarship attitude,
>where alleged creativity is valued more than the creativity of
>explaining or extending an existing techniques, one wonders how much
>good stuff has simply been lost...

Both anti-scholarship and anti-intellectual attitude...

However, can't we all just get along? Perhaps not here on the Lilly List,
but in the broader astrological community, isn't there room for both
unearthing and restoring old and classical techniques, as well as exploring
new approaches? We don't build a foundation just to sit on it - it is a base
from which we can venture forth to explore further. However, the solid
foundation grounds whatever else we do.

There is just so much to do in astrology today, and no one person can do it
all. What we need is perhaps a group of some kind...with some studying the
classical, some studying strictly horary, some studying synastry (old and
new), some studying asteroids and other new astronomical findings...etc...

Maybe this is exactly what we have...each of us working on our projects and
pieces of the puzzle. Perhaps we just need to respect each other's work and
recognize the need for communication and cooperation, rather than pitting
the work or subjects of one against another, or valuing one person/school's
work over another's.

What we need is an active Research Foundation as well..

Julienne



Thread: Scout Planet
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:29:28

Dear Angela,

I dont know the term, but could it mean the rising planet? Or perhap the
planet that rises before the sun. Anne-Marie, perhaps you can tell us if
either is the case with the chart that you were examining.


>There have been a couple of replies to this original posting, but none
have
>referred to the term 'scout planet'. Can anyone elaborate on what is a

>'scout planet' and how is it incorporated into the general scheme of
things.
>Furthermore, what does it 'do' in a computer programme?
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.


Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:44:59 -0400


>But there is another dimension since the question was asked in French, not
English. Can someone please tell us whether the question as supplied in
French translates as "will" or "shall?"<

Does it really matter??

It's clear to anyone who is aware of Denis's work that he has been a
professional astrologer for a long time, he just hasn't recognised it yet.


I can only assume that his question is really relating to the matter of
money and financial income. I would want clarification on that before I
went any further.

Deb


Thread: Andrew Cunanan
From: DKPaiger@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:28:27 -0400 (EDT)

In response to my own query--I erected the chart and found several things
that appear to be much more than mere coincidence: (especially in hindsight)

Venus in 12th, in Leo (Asc) ruling the l0th, squaring MC and IM
Sun exact cusp of 12th sq. Saturn
Moon last passed over Pluto in 4th (quite significant)
So. Node in 8th house

Just my perspective! DK




Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:02:34 EDT

To J Lee Lehman

Thanks for your reply. You have somewhat foxed me in as far as I am not
sure whether you are saying scout planets are a modern innovation or that
they are part of the ".... good stuff that has simply been lost..."
However, if they are not traditional, I suggest we knock the enquiry on the
head. I do apologise if I have queried a subject which was not within
traditional parameters, a bit of a Catch 22 in that if you don't ask, you don't
know.

Thank you for your reminder that this is a traditional list, however,
I am well aware of that, the explanation above still standing.

Thank you for your reply

Angela Reeve



Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: Tom <tom@metronet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:37:22 +0100

Jonathon, you wrote:

----------
From: Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse
Sent: 22 July 1997 10:00
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) FW: Horary chart/Timing

Dear Denis,

I take the significators of success in this chart to be the application by
trine of the Moon (you) to the Sun, dispositor of Saturn which rules the
tenth of career.
The usual way of taking the unit of time indicated by each degree is as follows:

Significator in Cardinal sign and angular house - day
---------------"------------------succeedent house - week
---------------"------------------cadent house - month

Significator in Mutable sign and angular house - week
---------------"------------------succeedent house - month
---------------"------------------cadent house - year

Significator in Fixed sign and angular house - month
---------------"------------------succeedent house - year
---------------"------------------cadent house - indeterminate.

There are many references to timing in Lilly who suggests that the above
rules can be varied according to circumstance (and common sense). I made a
quick check to see if I could find the reference to fixed sign and cadent
house but couldn't find it - does anyone know the source for this?

Anyway, to your chart.

The Moon is in a fixed sign, Taurus, and cadent house, the twelfth, so I
suggest it is not possible to tell when you would achieve your goal. If one
were to adjust the measurements to the next quickest option then I would say
each degree is equivalent to a year and the answer is just over a year since
the Moon and Sun are one degree and 8 minutes apart from their exact trine.
It might take slightly longer since both the Moon and sun are slow in motion.

I should be interested to know what happened.
All the best,
Jonathon





>
>: DENIS LABOURE [SMTP:Laboure@wanadoo.fr]
>Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:35 AM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Horary chart/Timing
>
>Carol,
>
>May I show you this horary :
>
>Data : 13 September 1976 09.20 PM GMT Champdieu (4E03 45N36).(13° Gemini
>rising).
>
>Question : "Serai-je astrologue professionnel plus tard ?" (Shall I
>become a professional astrologer ?)
>
>The right answer is "yes". My practice is well established. But I have
>never found how it should have been possible to find the exact year (and
>month ?). Could anybody give this year and explain the technicalities ?
>
>Please, rectify my poor English.
>
>Thanks a lot.
>
>Denis Labouré 3, avenue de la Libération 42000 Saint-Etienne France.
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>or traditional@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-
>JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
>Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
>No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern
print.
>Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
>horary_astrology@compuserve.com
>http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall
>
>

Here's the data:

Asc 13 GE 21
MC 14 AQ 34
Regiomontanus cusps:
XI 12 PI 01
XII 29 AR 09
II 8 CN 32
III 29 CN 16

Jupiter 1 GE 09
True node 4 SC 15
Uranus 4 SC 45
Mercury 6 LI 31 (retrograde)
Pluto 10 LI 48
Neptune 11 SG 20
Saturn 12 LE 14
Mars 13 LI 23
Venus 14 LI 56
Moon 20 TA 03
Sun 21 VI 11

I agree with your judgement that the timing is indeterminate, and my source is as follows:
In The Astrologer's Guide (Bonatus), aphorism 71 is followed by a note by W. Lilly. He, in turn, refers to two other sources: Commander Morrison, R. N., who states that fixed / cadent implies "... an indefinite time ...", and Dr. Simmonite, who says that the time is "unknown" in this case.
So, Allen, perhaps you are right this time, it may be a waste of time to attempt to predict the time of the event in this case, but I have to say that when the timing of an event is more clear in a horary, the predicted time is pretty reliable. (And the same can be said for other types of chart: for example, triggers to solar eclipses rarely fail as a timing device).

Thanks for the challenge, Denis,

Tom Nicholson.
mailto:tom@metronet.co.uk

P.S. Can I make a request? Could we avoid quoting dates in the form 12/3/97, as this means 12th March in England, and 3rd December in the US.





Thread: For fixed star fans
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:17:51 -0400 (EDT)

Versace chart fixed star line-up is very convincing. Does anyone have good
data on Cunanan yet? Thanks for birth data!

Maggie


Thread: Andrew Cunanan
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:40:38 BST



>>DK Paiger wrote:
>
>I think we should put our collective astro gifts together and figure out
>>where this guy is. His birthday is 8/31/69, that's all the info I have. I'm
>>not sure which time to use for the event/horary chart, unless it is right now
>>as I feel compelled to write this. (7:56 am EDT, 80W/28N)
>>
>>Anyone up for this mighty challenge??
>
>I suggest the best chance would be found from the chart erected for the time
>and place of the shooting - can anyone supply that accurately from the USA,
>please. I couldn't find an exact time in the UK media.
>Thanks,
>Jonathon
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
The mystic vibrations hint to me that he has recently been on a houseboat in Florida
Jon




Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:40:14 BST



>Hi, Sue,
>
>>> Allen, I'm not sure what you mean by predicting being 'mainly a waste of
>time and energy'. Can you enlarge?
>
>Consistent attempts to predict specific future events have always proven
>fruitless to those who have tried. I have yet to see anyone come up with
>accurate predictions that looked any more than guessing. It is fine to know
>the current general state of the astrological "weather",

I think Geoffrey Cornelius' book The Moment of Astrology effectively disposes of the 'weather' theory
Jon






Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:28:34 -0700

>A fascinating and learned exposition from Jon, thanks.

But there is another dimension since the question was asked in French, not
English. Can someone please tell us whether the question as supplied in
French translates as "will" or "shall?"

Cheers,
Jonathon
>
>>At 17:42 22/7/1997 -0400, Allen wrote:
>>>Hi, Denis,
>>>
>>>>> Shall I become a professional astrologer?
>
>>
>>The 'shall' in the question is ambiguous. Denis, were you asking 'will I
>>ever be...' or something like: 'is it a good idea if...'. It's a small
>>point, but I've found that the 'will I ever' questions can often be
>>difficult to answer.
>
>
>Why would 'shall' be ambiguous? 'Shall' has to do with matters of fact in
the future and 'will' has to do with matters of volition. So 'shall I become
an astrologer' is asking about what is going to happen, 'will I become...'
is asking about what I want
>to happen.
>Incidentally, I imagine Lilly would have been more accustomed than is
current usage to the 'proper' conjugatons of Will and Shall, which are quite
bizarre:
>-about facts in the future: I shall, you will, he will, we shall, you will,
they will
>-and about matters of volition: I will, you shall, he shall, we will, you
shall, they shall
>
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>



Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:48:14 -0400

Hi Angela,

I sent this to Ann Marie but not to the list; here it is.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that it's also what is called the "leading
planet." If you have a gap in the circle, a few houses where there are no
planets, then the leading planet is the one you would run into first after
you traverse that empty area. So, for example, if you have planets in
Aquarius, Aries, Taurus, Cancer, Leo and Virgo, there is a break between
Virgo and Aquarius, the largest break. So the Aquarius planet would be the
leading planet, and this may be the "scout planet" referred to.

The other possibility is that it's the planet with the smallest degree, so
that after a planet (esp. Moon) goes void of course, that would be the
first planet that would be aspected. This would be more in line with the
traditional horary view. Also less likely for that very reason,
unfortunately.

-JoAnne




Thread: Book suggestion
From: "Sandra Rozhon" <srozhon@cyberdrive.net> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:36:20 -0500

I found this book at the library and thought I'd recommend it to
those of you interested in what it was like in a society that
accepted astrology as a daily fact of life. The author is not an
astrologer, but has done an excellent job of dealing with the subject
matter without passing judgement on the validity of astrology. She
also did a good job in familiarizing herself with the vocabulary and
techniques so that her explanations carry more weight with the
astrologer who might be reading her book.


Astrology and the Seventeenth Century Mind :
William Lilly and the Language of the Stars
(Social and Cultural Values in Early Modern Europe)
by: Ann Geneva
Published 1995

---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---
Sandra Rozhon <srozhon@cyberdrive.net> ICQ#: 193755
FESTIVAL Astrology mailing list
Festival now has a homepage of it's own!
http://www.cyberdrive.net/~srozhon/festival
Info -- Mugshots -- Pets -- History -- Status Report
---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===---



Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix15.ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:50:15 +0000

Angela Reeve wrote:

> There have been a couple of replies to this original posting, but none have
> referred to the term 'scout planet'. Can anyone elaborate on what is a
> 'scout planet' and how is it incorporated into the general scheme of things.
> Furthermore, what does it 'do' in a computer programme?

Angela -

Perhaps this is the time for one of us to remind you that the
William Lilly list is a classical board, and "scout planets" are
not a classical technique.

The difficulty that you are having in finding an answer illustrates
one of the real unfortunate circumstances of 20th Century astrology:
every one is eager to invent (or appear to invent) new techniques,
with new vocabulary, but not with reference anyone else's work. The
fact that the term "scout planet" doesn't appear in any of the
standard references (Wilson's, Gedding, Larousse, etc.) shows that,
whatever it is, it hasn't made it to standard usage at least under
that name, if it ever will. And with this anti-scholarship attitude,
where alleged creativity is valued more than the creativity of
explaining or extending an existing techniques, one wonders how much
good stuff has simply been lost...

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: Mutable signs
From: Jewell Starsinger <jewellstar@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:37:07 -0700

Sue Ward wrote:
>
> At 17:16 22/7/1997 -0700, you wrote:
> >Vilia Summers wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >Hi, Vilia, Jewell here. The dictionary defines 'mutable' as
> >"changeable; that can be changed, tending to frequent change;
> >inconstant; fickle."
>Hi Sue, Thanks for your comments. Look down the text, I have some for you!
> The word 'mutable' is, I think, of more modern origin. Traditionally the
> more correct term is 'common'. This can be explained through the older way
> of looking at the scheme. The seasons start in the cardinal or moveable
> signs,
My impression of 'moveable' is as to overcome inertia.

they become established in the fixed or solid signs. The common or
> mutable signs fall after the fixed and before the cardinal and partake of
> both - the seasons in common signs show something of the season just past
> and of the season to come. In older works, such as Dorotheus, there are
> many references to the two halves of the common signs highlighting this
> delineation.
>
> Personally, I distrust keywords like 'fickle' and 'changeable' to describe
> the common signs because it is a word that can also be attributed to the
> Moon sueward@easynet.co.uk
> The Traditional Horary Course


(J)Hi Sue, I don't care for the dictionary terms, either, but only
because when applied to human behavior and intent, they imply poor
character.
Yes, the Moon changes, but it's motion represents a cycle that is
regular and dependable bringing its force to bear at each turn. The
'moveable' Moon - Cancer stuff seems to have the quality of a
juggernaut. Able to overcome the inertia of dormancy and bring in the
next level of the cycle.
This seems quite different than the mutable or common qualities of
facility, adaptability and creativity.



>
>


Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:31:49 -0400

Hi, Sue,

>> Allen, I'm not sure what you mean by predicting being 'mainly a waste of
time and energy'. Can you enlarge?

Consistent attempts to predict specific future events have always proven
fruitless to those who have tried. I have yet to see anyone come up with
accurate predictions that looked any more than guessing. It is fine to know
the current general state of the astrological "weather", but to try and
predict specific events, well, I think the time and energy could be better
spent elsewhere. Like learning how to be more accurate on the horaries we
get that don't have anything to do with the future or being prepared for
whatever happens, if it does happen. That's where the energy should go.

I contend that looking back at past charts to "figure" out why something
happened is also meaningless. It does not help in predicting or
understanding the future, nor does it usually give much insight. What most
people do is come up with all sorts of rationalizations that have very
little to do with science or art. It is mostly conjecture and doesn't mean
beans to a tree, as they say.

But I digress from the point of this list, so forgive me. Just personal
opinion based on my experiences.


Allen


Thread: For fixed star fans
From: Michael_A._Buckner@online.idg.se (Michael A. Buckner) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:44:25 +0200

Hi,
Someone on Festival gave data for Versace as 12.2.46 06:45 zone -1 hour
Reggio Calabria, Italy 38n06, 15e39 should give you Asc. at 6Sag22
CCRS. Seems the data was from some one with name similar to the Yanks
owner, Steinbricher or something ??

Find a program that will give you star parans(g). CCRS a good choice.

For Versace if chart data is correct then Algol culminates with Venus
on the IC, an opposition also. Algol on the MC at 3:05 sid.time, Venus
on the IC at 3:02 sid.time.

Algol sets with N.Node setting. Thus your Algol connection(g).

Remember that the early degrees of Gemini on the Dsc are the degrees to
watch for Algol, not only 25/26 Taurus. Also note Aries degrees on
Asc., ex. draw up chart for L.A. CA 7.21.97 23:38 PDT gives Asc.
17Ar16, Algol rises at natal sid.time for this chart, does not appear
so by longitude does it. He also rises with Mars setting in this chart,
Mars at 16Li28, also culminates with Merc rising. Merc at 23Le is a bit
easier to see by longitude. Michael B.


Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:43:23 BST



>At 17:42 22/7/1997 -0400, Allen wrote:
>>Hi, Denis,
>>
>>>> Shall I become a professional astrologer?

>
>The 'shall' in the question is ambiguous. Denis, were you asking 'will I
>ever be...' or something like: 'is it a good idea if...'. It's a small
>point, but I've found that the 'will I ever' questions can often be
>difficult to answer.


Why would 'shall' be ambiguous? 'Shall' has to do with matters of fact in the future and 'will' has to do with matters of volition. So 'shall I become an astrologer' is asking about what is going to happen, 'will I become...' is asking about what I want to happen.
Incidentally, I imagine Lilly would have been more accustomed than is current usage to the 'proper' conjugatons of Will and Shall, which are quite bizarre:
-about facts in the future: I shall, you will, he will, we shall, you will, they will
-and about matters of volition: I will, you shall, he shall, we will, you shall, they shall


Jon




Thread: Andrew Cunanan
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:51:46 -0700

>DK Paiger wrote:

I think we should put our collective astro gifts together and figure out
>where this guy is. His birthday is 8/31/69, that's all the info I have. I'm
>not sure which time to use for the event/horary chart, unless it is right now
>as I feel compelled to write this. (7:56 am EDT, 80W/28N)
>
>Anyone up for this mighty challenge??

I suggest the best chance would be found from the chart erected for the time
and place of the shooting - can anyone supply that accurately from the USA,
please. I couldn't find an exact time in the UK media.
Thanks,
Jonathon
>
>
>



Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:11:51

Dear Ann-Marie,

I am taking the correspondence course for Astrological Counselling from the
English Huber School. I have a tutor in South Africa, as there is no one
here in Australia (that I know of) who is a tutor, although there are some
other students. You are welcome to email me personally with questions if
you wish.

The astrology lines are a mixed blessing. They do get astrology more known,
but of course also more firmly entrenched as part of the 'psychic' scene.

As far as predictive astrology goes, Brenadette Brady's The Eagle and the
Lark, covers many methods and is a good buy. Does it work? that is like
asking "how long is a piece of string?". It depends what you want to know.
If you want a definite date and event, then I don't generally think so, but
then I don't believe it should work that way. You must have the free will
to respond to the incoming 'energies'. These 'energies' can also have many
manifestations and your own present life situation governs which of these
you will experience. I also believe that if you know in advance you can
choose, to a certain extent, to use the 'energies' positively and head off
the negative. Knowing the 'flavour' of the time ahead can help you use it
constructively at best, and give you hope for the timing of a light at the
end of the tunnel at worst.

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.


Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:36:47 EDT


There have been a couple of replies to this original posting, but none have
referred to the term 'scout planet'. Can anyone elaborate on what is a
'scout planet' and how is it incorporated into the general scheme of things.
Furthermore, what does it 'do' in a computer programme?

Intrigued,

Angela



Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:51:00
Status: U

At 00:07 23/7/1997 -0400, you wrote:
Dear Ann-Marie

Just my opinion:

>I also have another question about predictive astrology. How does it work?

Have you got a month or two to spare?

> Any good books out there on the subject?

Christian Astrology by William Lilly.

And how do we do an accurate chart
>without a birth time? Any simple techniques? Finally, is it necessary to do

with great difficulty, time and effort, so I suppose that answers the
second question!

>the calculations and the actual chart to be a good astrologer, or can we rely
>on computer calculations for accuracy?

It isn't necessary to do it all by hand, but certainly at the beginning it
is very helpful in many ways. If I wasn't so tempted by the speed and ease
of the computer, I would do more by hand, it gives such a good point of
contact and I think it maintains the astrologer's 'feel' for the movement
of the heavens.

Good luck.

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: For fixed star fans
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:44:18 -0400 (EDT)

Gianni Versace's DOB is 12/02/46 per his web page bio. Haven't seen his time
or place of birth yet. However, the July 28, 1997 Newsweek states in article
about him, "Adopting a Medusa-head medallion as his logo, he put it on
everything from wristwatches to silk print shirts, china to blue jeans, down
comforters to perfumes."

Caput Algol would have been at about 25:21 Taurus in '46 and was not in any
aspect to his planets or nodes. Am guessing this degree is on one of
Versace's angles. Would it be the Ascendant or MC? Anyone out there have any
thoughts on this - or his correct birth data?

Thanks,
Maggie


Thread: Mutable signs
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:43:22
Status: U

At 17:16 22/7/1997 -0700, you wrote:
>Vilia Summers wrote:
>>
>> Hi, I was just wondering what "mutable" means when it comes to
>> astrology. I don't know too much about astrology other than the general
>> day to day stuff and that Capricorn is my starsign whilst Leo is my
>> rising sign. Could you please explain this mutable stuff to me?
>-
>Hi, Vilia, Jewell here. The dictionary defines 'mutable' as
>"changeable; that can be changed, tending to frequent change;
>inconstant; fickle." We mutable types prefer the word "interesting"
>which seems like a more pleasant terminology unless you have heard Rob
>Hand speak of the Chinese curse "May you be born in 'interesting times'"

The word 'mutable' is, I think, of more modern origin. Traditionally the
more correct term is 'common'. This can be explained through the older way
of looking at the scheme. The seasons start in the cardinal or moveable
signs, they become established in the fixed or solid signs. The common or
mutable signs fall after the fixed and before the cardinal and partake of
both - the seasons in common signs show something of the season just past
and of the season to come. In older works, such as Dorotheus, there are
many references to the two halves of the common signs highlighting this
delineation.

Personally, I distrust keywords like 'fickle' and 'changeable' to describe
the common signs because it is a word that can also be attributed to the
Moon and possibly to it's sign of rulership, Cancer, which I think is more
apt. In fact, I wonder what the cardinal types out there would have to say
about changefulness, because in the charts that I see change is more often
indicated by moveability (as its name suggests) than anything else sign-wise.

Thoughts?

Sincerely

Sue

sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:28:58
Status: U

At 17:42 22/7/1997 -0400, Allen wrote:
>Hi, Denis,
>
>>> Shall I become a professional astrologer?
>>> 13 Sep 1976 TZ = 0.0 9.20 P.M. 45.36 NORTH 4.03 EAST
>>> But I have never found how it should have been possible to find the
>exact year (and
>month). Could anybody give this year and explain the technicalities?

>This is why predictive astrology is so difficult and mainly a waste of time
>and energy. Not knowing when didn't stop you from becoming one, so what
>would an answer have gained for you that you didn't really already have or
>make happen? Perhaps knowing might have made you lazy, figuring that it
>would just come to you without working as hard as you would have otherwise.
>
>Allen

The 'shall' in the question is ambiguous. Denis, were you asking 'will I
ever be...' or something like: 'is it a good idea if...'. It's a small
point, but I've found that the 'will I ever' questions can often be
difficult to answer. Lilly takes a wide-ranging question on page 177 of CA
and to predict timing he used (partly) what looks like primary directions.
This is possibly because of the long duration of the outcome.

Allen, I'm not sure what you mean by predicting being 'mainly a waste of
time and energy'. Can you enlarge?

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: For fixed star fans
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:56:43 pdt
Status: U

Maggi: here are some of the closest stars on the horizon and near the
eclpitic. The stunner for me is the setup of Antares and Aldebaran.
Aldebaran sets precisely, although Algol is situated in the seventh house
setting 32 minutes after his birth. the secondary directions show the
moon moving toward the quadruple conjunction on the ascendant of Sun,
Mars, and Mercury.



Here are some star positions in several coordinate formats, along with
a chart figured from some data in the list:::

+-------<11>16Lib35'08"----<10>21Vir41'45"-----<9>16Leo35'08"-------
|                  |                  |                  |                  |
|                  |                  |                  |                  |
|                  |                  |                  |                  |
|                  |                  |                  | Sat 8Leo45'50"r  |
<12>11Sco28'31"----|-------------------------------------|-----11Can28'31" <8>
| Jup 14Sco33'32"  |    Astrolog 5.30b chart             |                  |
| Ven 17Sco53'55"r |     versace                         |                  |
| Mer 21Sco16'00"  |   Mon  2 Dec 1946  6:45             | Ura 20Gem11'43"r |
|                  |             birthplace              | Nod 11Gem43'17"r |
<1> 6Sag21'54"-----|      ST +01:00,  15:39E 38:06N      |Gem21'54"        <7>
| Sun  9Sag27'03"  |       UT:  5:45, Sid.T: 11:29       |                  |
| Mar 18Sag36'29"  |           Porphyry Houses           |                  |
|                  |   Tropical / Geocentric             |                  |
|                  |        Julian Day = 2432156.7396    |                  |
<2>11Cap28'31"-----|-------------------------------------|-----11Tau28'31" <6>
|                  | Moo 13Pis22'13"  |                  |                  |
|                  |                  |                  |                  |
|                  |                  |                  |                  |
|                  |                  |                  |                  |
+------------------16Aqu35'08"<3>-----21Pis41'45"<4>-----16Ari35'08"<5>-----+

Notable Fixed Stars: (the relevent rising or setting is starred*****)


Name: Algol
Bayer: Beta Perseus
HD #19356; Yale #936
Mag: 2.12 (Variable); Spectral: B8
Multiple: 6
Parallax: +.045
Approx. Dist: 72.4 light-years
Az: 321:54:13; Alt: 3:08:01
RA: 3:08:10; Dec: 40:57:21
Ecliptic Lon: 56:10:03; Lat: 22:25:43
Galactic Lon: 148:58:17; Lat: -14:53:49
Rising: Dec 1, 1946; 1:31:00 P.M.
Transit: Dec 1, 1946; 10:24:03 P.M.
*****Setting: Dec 2, 1946; 7:17:07 A.M.******

Name: Graffias
Bayer: Beta 1 Scorpius
HD #144217; Yale #5984
Mag: 2.62 (Variable); Spectral: B1
Multiple: 5
Parallax: +.009
Approx. Dist: 362.1 light-years
Az: 118:23:15; Alt: 3:28:51
RA: 16:05:26; Dec: -19:48:19
Ecliptic Lon: 243:11:22; Lat: 1:00:28
Galactic Lon: 353:11:14; Lat: 23:35:47
*****Rising: Dec 2, 1946; 6:22:05 A.M.*****
Transit: Dec 2, 1946; 11:19:35 A.M.
Setting: Dec 2, 1946; 4:17:05 P.M.

Bayer: Delta Scorpius
HD #143275; Yale #5953
Mag: 2.32; Spectral: B0
Multiple: 4
Az: 121:16:09; Alt: 2:26:56
RA: 16:00:20; Dec: -22:37:18
Ecliptic Lon: 242:34:15; Lat: -1:59:10
Galactic Lon: 350:05:29; Lat: 22:29:14
*****Rising: Dec 2, 1946; 6:27:23 A.M.******
Transit: Dec 2, 1946; 11:14:26 A.M.
Setting: Dec 2, 1946; 4:01:29 P.M.

Bayer: Pi Scorpius
HD #143018; Yale #5944
Mag: 2.89 (Variable); Spectral: B1
Multiple: 3
Parallax: +.010
Approx. Dist: 325.9 light-years
Az: 124:03:10; Alt: 0:18:42
RA: 15:58:51; Dec: -26:06:51
Ecliptic Lon: 242:56:22; Lat: -5:28:32
Galactic Lon: 347:12:33; Lat: 20:13:38
******Rising: Dec 2, 1946; 6:39:40 A.M.*******
Transit: Dec 2, 1946; 11:12:53 A.M.
Setting: Dec 2, 1946; 3:46:07 P.M.

Name: Aldebaran
Bayer: Alpha Taurus
HD #29139; Yale #1457
Mag: 0.85 (Variable); Spectral: K5
Multiple: 6
Parallax: +.054
Approx. Dist: 60.4 light-years
Az: 291:08:57; Alt: -0:10:15
RA: 4:35:55; Dec: 16:30:33
Ecliptic Lon: 69:47:20; Lat: -5:28:03
Galactic Lon: 180:57:59; Lat: -20:14:42
Rising: Dec 1, 1946; 4:56:51 P.M.
Transit: Dec 1, 1946; 11:52:00 P.M.
******Setting: Dec 2, 1946; 6:47:09 A.M.******

Name: Antares
Bayer: Alpha Scorpius
HD #148478; Yale #6134
Mag: 0.96 (Variable); Spectral: M1
Parallax: +.024
Approx. Dist: 135.8 light-years
Az: 119:44:47; Alt: -5:01:39
RA: 16:29:24; Dec: -26:25:55
Ecliptic Lon: 249:45:43; Lat: -4:34:12
Galactic Lon: 351:56:30; Lat: 15:03:39
Rising: Dec 2, 1946; 7:11:33 A.M.******
Transit: Dec 2, 1946; 11:43:19 A.M.
Setting: Dec 2, 1946; 4:15:06 P.M.



Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:44:18 -0400 (EDT) AstroMaggi@aol.com writes:
>Gianni Versace's DOB is 12/02/46 per his web page bio. Haven't seen
>his time
>or place of birth yet. However, the July 28, 1997 Newsweek states in
>article
>about him, "Adopting a Medusa-head medallion as his logo, he put it on
>everything from wristwatches to silk print shirts, china to blue
>jeans, down
>comforters to perfumes."
>
>Caput Algol would have been at about 25:21 Taurus in '46 and was not
>in any
>aspect to his planets or nodes. Am guessing this degree is on one of
>Versace's angles. Would it be the Ascendant or MC? Anyone out there
>have any
>thoughts on this - or his correct birth data?
>
>Thanks,
>Maggie
>
>


Thread: Asteroids
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix22.ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:33:11 +0000

Rune H Olsen wrote:

> But the matter of whitch I realy was too write about,
> was to ask if any one know where I can get ephemerids for the
> Asteroids.

No one is publishing them all! However, the major program for running
asteroid lists on computers was written by Mark Pottenger. It
integrates with his DOS program, CCRS, and is available from
Astrolabe.

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: Asteroids
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:52:23 +0000

At 03:36 AM 7/23/97 +0000, Rune H Olsen wrote:
>First of all my complements for an exelent mailing list. I have been
folowing the debat for a couple of monts, and I find it verry entertaining
and educational. I am an norwegian astrologer (Beginner) who has just
started publishing a astrological magazine her in Norway, so now we have two
of them her in our litle country.(excuse my bad spelling)For those of you
intrested the birth data for the magazine is: may 23th 96 at 07.00 pm. in
Lillehammer 61n08 10e30. It would bee fun to hear any coments from someone
about this.
>But the matter of whitch I realy was too write about, was to ask if any one
know where I can get ephemerids for the Asteroids.I have got the ephemerids
for Juno, Vesta, Palas and Ceres but there is still a few tousand missing. I
need them to verify som information I have reseved about some conection
between the names on the Asteroid and critical events occuring in the life
of people with names that can bee linked to the same asteroid. Does anybody
know anything about this?
>Astrological Greetings From NORWAY

Hi Rune,

The person to connect with is Mark Pottenger, who created the asteroid
programme which I use. Currently there are about 6000 we are using. His
e-mail address: 71267.2075@compuserve.com

I am also forwarding this post to Mark.

Good luck! They're fun. :) And rather amazing...

Julienne



Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: AMBurtell@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:07:45 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

Hi!

Allow me to introduce myself. I have found this e-mail list quite insightful
in the last few weeks. My name is Ann-Marie Burtell, I live in Alexandria,
VA right outside of D.C.

I have a couple of questions and need some assistance: First, has anyone
attended the British School of Astrology sponsored by Bruno & Louise Huber?
I was thinking about going to England and taking the course. Comments and
suggestions about that type of training. Second, is there a school in the
United States or any course that trains people in psychological astrology
(therapeutic astrology, etc...)?

Finally, I have this cheap astrology program that comes up with a SCOUT
planet. What is a SCOUT planet? It certainly isn't a ruling planet. How
can my SCOUT planet be SATURN when I am an Aries, Rising Scorpio, Moon in
Cancer? I only have my Part of Fortune in Capricorn.

If anyone out there can help me answer this question I would greatly
appreciate it.

Furthermore, if anyone would like to correspond with me personally I have
some questions about the field of astrology in general. Do you believe that
it is becoming more popular, or have the psychics taken over the possible
market for astrologers? I tend to believe if Time magazine does a cover
story on Astrology and A & E just had an hour-long program on Astrology that
it is coming into vogue. However, how do we change the perspective of the
public at large that Astrology is indeed a great way to understand their
soul's blueprint and psychological makeup?

I also have another question about predictive astrology. How does it work?
Any good books out there on the subject? And how do we do an accurate chart
without a birth time? Any simple techniques? Finally, is it necessary to do
the calculations and the actual chart to be a good astrologer, or can we rely
on computer calculations for accuracy?

Thanks in advance for your responses. Looking forward to hearing from you
:).

Ann-Marie


Thread: Asteroids
From: "Rune H Olsen" <rho1000@sn.no> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:36:23 +0200
Status: U

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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charset="iso-8859-1"
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First of all my complements for an exelent mailing list. I have been =
folowing the debat for a couple of monts, and I find it verry =
entertaining and educational. I am an norwegian astrologer (Beginner) =
who has just started publishing a astrological magazine her in Norway, =
so now we have two of them her in our litle country.(excuse my bad =
spelling)For those of you intrested the birth data for the magazine is: =
may 23th 96 at 07.00 pm. in Lillehammer 61n08 10e30. It would bee fun to =
hear any coments from someone about this.
But the matter of whitch I realy was too write about, was to ask if any =
one know where I can get ephemerids for the Asteroids.I have got the =
ephemerids for Juno, Vesta, Palas and Ceres but there is still a few =
tousand missing. I need them to verify som information I have reseved =
about some conection between the names on the Asteroid and critical =
events occuring in the life of people with names that can bee linked to =
the same asteroid. Does anybody know anything about this?
Astrological Greetings From NORWAY


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<META content=3D'"Trident 4.71.0544.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>

</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First of all my complements for an =
exelent mailing=20
list. I have been folowing the debat for a couple of monts, and I find =
it verry=20
entertaining and educational. I am an norwegian astrologer (Beginner) =
who has=20
just started publishing a astrological magazine her in Norway, so now we =
have=20
two of them her in our litle country.(excuse my bad spelling)For those =
of you=20
intrested the birth data for the magazine is: may 23th 96 at 07.00 pm. =
in=20
Lillehammer 61n08 10e30. It would bee fun to hear any coments from =
someone about=20
this.</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But the matter of whitch I realy was too =
write about,=20
was to ask if any one know where I can get ephemerids for the =
Asteroids.I have=20
got the ephemerids for Juno, Vesta, Palas and Ceres but there is still a =
few=20
tousand missing. I need them to verify som information I have reseved =
about some=20
conection between the names on the Asteroid and critical events occuring =
in the=20
life of people with names that can bee linked to the same asteroid. Does =
anybody=20
know anything about this?</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Astrological Greetings From =
NORWAY</FONT></P>

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------=_NextPart_000_01BC972A.5B236C40--



Thread: Does this electional chart bite?
From: Jewell Starsinger <jewellstar@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:47:10 -0700

allen edwall wrote:
>
> Hi, Jewell,
>
> It is interesting to hear John's and your comments about the election chart done
> for your art shop. Let me throw my two cents in here because maybe we can stir
> up the pot.
>
> Here is the chart data:
>
> Art shop opening
> 20 Jul 1994 TZ = 8.0 9.30 A.M. 33.49 NORTH 116.32 WEST
>
> HOUSE CUSPS - Placidus
> 10TH house = 24 GEM 42 11TH house = 27 CAN 05 12TH house = 27 LEO 38
> 1ST house = 25 VIR 08 2ND house = 22 LIB 01 3RD house = 22 SCO 21
> 4TH house = 24 SAG 42 5TH house = 27 CPR 05 6TH house = 27 AQU 38
> 7TH house = 25 PIS 08 8TH house = 22 ARI 01 9TH house = 22 TAU 21
>
(snip .. I am supposed to snip for nettiquette's sake, right?)
>
> Yes, the Moon is in Sag, not in Capricorn.
Thanks for the validation. Solfire is a good program.
>
> More data:
>
> Peregrine - SUN MERCURY JUPITER SATURN MOON
> Fall - VENUS
> Mutual Reception (by sign) - SATURN-NEPTUNE
> Via Combusta - JUPITER
>
> Planets' Strengths:
> SUN: -3 MERCURY: 9 VENUS: 10 MARS: 13 JUPITER: 3 SATURN: -8 MOON: 8
>
> Moon's Aspects -
> From - SQUARE VENUS SQUARE SATURN OPPOSITE MARS SEXTILE PART F.
> To - VOID OF COURSE
>
> MOON Opposite app, dex MERCURY 7.7 degree
> MOON Sextile app, dex JUPITER 5.3 degree
> MOON Sextile P. OF F. 2.6 degree
> MOON Square ASC 4.9 degree
> MOON Opposite MC 5.3 degree
>
> Yes, the Moon is "void of course" by one definition, but it does apply and
> is within orb to a sextile with Jupiter in the 2nd house and it also applies to
> an opposition to 10-ruler Mercury (the business). That last aspect is a killer.
>
> More data, the cosmodynes (I know, traditional horary astrologers don't care
>
> Art shop opening
> 20 Jul 1994 TZ = 8.0 9.30 A.M. 33.49 NORTH 116.32 WEST
>
> Planet Power Har/Disc %
> PLUTO 37.54 22.35 32.1
> JUPITER 25.92 18.45 26.5
> MERCURY 75.52 12.64 18.2
> ASC 58.81 10.15 14.6
> NEPTUNE 65.22 6.04 8.7
> URANUS 78.58 -1.19 1.0
> VENUS 40.60 -14.16 12.3
> MOON 57.49 -18.35 15.9
> SUN 76.30 -19.00 16.5
> MC 39.87 -19.58 17.0
> SATURN 40.68 -20.58 17.9
> MARS 42.31 -22.28 19.4
>
> House Power Har/Disc %
> 3 57.51 22.37 39.7
> 1 96.57 16.47 29.2
> 2 46.22 11.37 20.2
> 7 22.78 6.12 10.9
> 10 153.15 -0.62 0.5
> 4 214.25 -4.28 3.2
> 5 20.34 -10.29 7.7
> 8 21.16 -11.14 8.3
> 12 78.75 -23.66 17.7
> 6 70.50 -26.03 19.5
> 11 105.04 -28.17 21.1
> 9 62.61 -29.36 22.0
>
> Note: Har/Disc = harmony/discord
>
> The 10th house (business) is strong (153.15 cosmodynes) and it is not too
> inharmonious (-0.62). Mercury is the 3rd strongest planet AND the third most
> harmonious. That is not bad and probably is the reason the business has lasted
> thus far (conjecture).
>
> Look at Jupiter and Venus as well, along the same lines. Jupiter is harmonious,
> but not that strong. Venus is stronger (but not that strong) and discordant.
>
> Alright, here's where all this is leading. What rules the business? I think
> everyone agrees it is Mercury because it both rules the 10th house and is in
> the 10th house. But what planet rules your money? Well, doesn't traditional
> astrology say Venus, 2-ruler? John said that Mars is co-ruler. What about
> Jupiter? He rules money naturally, but what about in this chart? Is he the
> main significator of your money or is Venus? Furthermore, look at Lilly's
> strength ratings again:
>
> Planets' Strengths:
> SUN: -3 MERCURY: 9 VENUS: 10 MARS: 13 JUPITER: 3 SATURN: -8 MOON: 8
>
> Lilly says Venus is second best after Mars. Mercury is next, then the Moon, then
> Jupiter. How does this compare with the cosmodyne rankings:
>
> PLUTO 37.54 22.35 32.1
> JUPITER 25.92 18.45 26.5
> MERCURY 75.52 12.64 18.2
> ASC 58.81 10.15 14.6
> NEPTUNE 65.22 6.04 8.7
> URANUS 78.58 -1.19 1.0
> VENUS 40.60 -14.16 12.3
> MOON 57.49 -18.35 15.9
> SUN 76.30 -19.00 16.5
> MC 39.87 -19.58 17.0
> SATURN 40.68 -20.58 17.9
> MARS 42.31 -22.28 19.4
>
> Well, with cosmodynes, Mercury is strongest, then Moon, then Mars, then Venus,
> and lastly, Jupiter. I am ignoring the other planets because they are not
> significators of anything I am referring to at present.
>
> But if you look at harmony and discord, then Jupiter is most harmonious, then
> Mercury, then Venus, then the Moon, and Mars is the most discordant of any planet.
>
> So how do these differences between Lilly and cosmodynes "explain" or shed light
> upon the situation? How can Mars be so good with Lilly and so discordant with
> cosmodynes? And what does that mean?
>
> Well, it is true that Venus naturally rules art and according to Lilly's ratings,
> Venus is good, even though she is in the 12th house (yuck). Cosmodynes says
> Venus is pretty discordant and worse yuck, especially because of that killer
> T-square.
>
> The Moon is even more discordant here than Venus and we know we should try to
> strengthen the Moon in any election chart. Lilly has +8 (4th best), but with
> cosmodynes the Moon is not great at all (worse than Venus).
>
> For myself I think Lilly's strength ratings are very deceiving and this might be
> a good example. The thing I have against Lilly is that he combines strength and
> harmony/discord into one measurement. That does not make sense to me. In addition,
> because of the way he calculates strengths, a positive 5 or 6 or 8 is not as good
> as it appears, since it is no real problem to get a positive score even if nothing
> special is going on (swift, increasing in light, not combust, etc.).
>
> Why is the business bad in Jan, 1997? Well, for one thing progressed Moon is dead
> square natal Jupiter.
>
> Oh, one other thing bugs me. Why does Lilly use the planet ruling the house cusp
> as the main significator instead of a planet in a house? Who besides Lilly teaches
> a planet ruling a cusp is stronger than a planet within a house. Don't remember
> who myself. Can anyone refresh my memory?
Allen, think of it as the cusp ruler being the "King" and the
inhabitants of the house being the subjects. The proletariat.
>
> Now that the pot has been stirred, anyone for dinner?
>
> Allen
>
> P.S. Yes, it is true that Saturn is co-ruler of 10 and is ruler of 2 by way of
> almuten, which is another bummer because no matter how you slice it (either Lilly
> or cosmodynes), Saturn bites in this chart.
>
> ALMUTENS
>
> 10TH HOUSE = 24 GEM 42 MERCURY SATURN
> 11TH HOUSE = 27 CAN 05 MOON
> 12TH HOUSE = 27 LEO 38 SUN
> 1ST HOUSE = 25 VIR 08 MERCURY
> 2ND HOUSE = 22 LIB 01 SATURN
> 3RD HOUSE = 22 SCO 21 MARS
> 4TH HOUSE = 24 SAG 42 JUPITER
> 5TH HOUSE = 27 CPR 05 SATURN
> 6TH HOUSE = 27 AQU 38 SATURN
> 7TH HOUSE = 25 PIS 08 MARS
> 8TH HOUSE = 22 ARI 01 SUN MARS
> 9TH HOUSE = 22 TAU 21 VENUS
>
> Hmmmm, so he specializes in election charts. Well, . . . . .
>
> Maybe there's other factors we don't know about.

Allen, you perceptive little devil! Maybe we should look at his
chart!But that's another news service. I used to be married to him. He
started me into astrology in 1993. I haven't studied horary in any
serious way. I was a trusting soul. Maybe he wanted me to fail so he
could come back and pick up the pieces. Our relationship was very
Saturnian, (venus saturn aspects both ways, sun saturn aspects both
ways). He is very Saturnian (sun in Cancer conjunct saturn).

-Jewell
jewellstar@earthlink.net


Thread: Mutable signs
From: Jewell Starsinger <jewellstar@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:16:34 -0700

Vilia Summers wrote:
>
> Hi, I was just wondering what "mutable" means when it comes to
> astrology. I don't know too much about astrology other than the general
> day to day stuff and that Capricorn is my starsign whilst Leo is my
> rising sign. Could you please explain this mutable stuff to me?
-
Hi, Vilia, Jewell here. The dictionary defines 'mutable' as
"changeable; that can be changed, tending to frequent change;
inconstant; fickle." We mutable types prefer the word "interesting"
which seems like a more pleasant terminology unless you have heard Rob
Hand speak of the Chinese curse "May you be born in 'interesting times'"

Mutable signs and house are the third in any quadrant of activity. The
first part of action is Cardinal, meaning 'starting'. The second stage
of action is Fixed, meaning 'maintaining'. The third stage of action
is Mutable , meaning changing. People with many mutable energies in
their maps are good at change. We mutables love messes. We get bored
easily and can be tempted with troublesome situations because it feels
like fun. We must learn how to make messes in creative works and avoid
the social stigma and emotional turmoil of making them in our personal
lives.

I hope this answers your question.
Jewell
jewellstar@earthlink.net
> >Brian Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >> As a person with a majority of mutable signs in my chart, I'm wondering
> >> how other mutable types out there find a center to keep them from
> >> feeling tossed around by the various influences in their lives.
> >> --
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Brian Johnson
> >
> >Hi Brian,
> >I'm Gemini sun with Gemini rising, Jupiter in Pisces, sun in the 12th,
> >Mars in Virgo. Can we talk? Am I mutable enough for this discussion?
> >My anchor is my Mercury in Taurus. It's my ruling planet, <snip>
>
> Vilia.


Thread: On-line debate
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:17:51 -0400

Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"

>Dear Deborah Houlding:
Please give us the url again for the new website. AOL seems to have some
trouble making it out. Thanks.
Joseph Crane<

-- Always grateful for a good excuse to repeat my own advert. The URL is:

http://www.astrology-world.com

The address is case sensitive so make sure it's all lower case.

Thanks to everyone who has visited. Please make sure you sign the
guestbook so I know you've been.

Best wishes,

Deborah.



Thread: (Fwd) FW: Horary chart/Timing
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:42:33 -0400

Hi, Denis,

>> Shall I become a professional astrologer?
>> 13 Sep 1976 TZ = 0.0 9.20 P.M. 45.36 NORTH 4.03 EAST
>> But I have never found how it should have been possible to find the
exact year (and
month). Could anybody give this year and explain the technicalities?

This is why predictive astrology is so difficult and mainly a waste of time
and energy. Not knowing when didn't stop you from becoming one, so what
would an answer have gained for you that you didn't really already have or
make happen? Perhaps knowing might have made you lazy, figuring that it
would just come to you without working as hard as you would have otherwise.

Guessing: how about 4 1/4 years when Mercury conjoins Pluto by solar arc in
the chart you gave? At the same time Pluto by solar arc would be hitting
Venus, 6-ruler. Back it off to 20 Nov 1980 and progressed Moon is square
Pluto. It's as good a guess as any. And that's all it would be as so many
factors could bring it about. Obviously, I don't do much predictive
astrology. Sorry.


Allen


Thread: Hair designer sheers......lost?
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:42:31 -0400

>> Where are my scissors?

Venus rules the 4th house.

In 7th - look west.

In Leo, look northeast.

Leo - Leo rules parks, playgrounds, the front yard and the parking
strip that is
decoratively planted to enhance the appearance of the property or
street. Leo
rules forests, reservations, jungles, animal preserves, lairs, dens,
deserts,
places that are high, rocky, stepp or hard to reach, forts and natural
sites
serving as fortresses.

Indoors, Leo rules the main hall, living room, playroom, cardroom,
dining
room, music room, den, fireplace and picture windows. Leo represents the
east
wall in a room and up where you would have to reach for what is being
sought.
Usually there is a lack of orderliness or periods of great disorder
giving a
"jungle" effect.


FIRE sign - near a fireplace, heater, stove, chimney or outdoors,
anywhere there
has been a fire and near something made of iron. MIDWAY UP in a room.
EAST.


Since Venus is intercepted you must look behind something or between
something. The scissors are hemmed in, enclosed and not out in the open.

Look in the places most frequented by the "other" since Venus is in the 7th
house.
Go west, then northeast or go northeast, then west.

ANGULAR - in the home or in the part where the person generally works
with
such things or suspects it may be found. Can be easily reached.


Allen


X-cs:
From: Self <Single-user mode>
To: @LILLY3.PML
Subject: RE: from Gary
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:39:05 +7

-----Original Message-----
From: gary price [SMTP:garywarrenprice@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 1997 12:06 AM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: From Gary

July 20, 1997

Dear Carol,

Please feel free to use my letter in whatever way you see fit.

I received an E mail from Ellen Black, in which I was accused of
being a trouble maker. She also said my writing was not readable
and that the faxes could not be read due to pencil or blue ink.

As I told her my order over the phone, I could not remember, except
for the Greek Companion that I still need, the issue of the Latin
track. Therefore she said because I could not remember after 1 year
that I am a trouble maker.

She says she is sending a $50.00 refund to me, double what I paid
and has asked me never to order from Project Hindsight again.

I told her as soon as the refund was received, I would drop
the mail fraud charges.

Please include this with the letter.

Thanks. By the way, where can I get a copy of the companion to
the Greek track. Do you know any good Chinese astrology programs?
Roy Gillett asked me to check back in 6 months.

Regards,

Gary


>
>
>> From: "gary price" <garywarrenprice@hotmail.com>
>> To: cwiggers@halcyon.com
>> Cc: garywarrenprice@hotmail.com
>> Subject: From Gary
>> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:32:41 PDT
>
>> June 28, 1997
>>
>> Dear Carol,
>>
>> Sorry I missed you while I was in Wash. I will probably be back
>> by Oct or Nov.
>>
>> In the mean time I have two questions for you:
>>
>> Can you tell me what has happened to Project Hindsight? I filed
>> mail fraud charges against them for cheating me. I understand that
>> Rob Hand resigned (according to Roy Gillett).
>>
>> I know their tel no. changed. Also can you please tell me what you
>> think regarding a Horary. A person wants to know if they will get
>> something back but, Mercury sig. of the thing (document) changed
>> signs before it could perfect with the asc (or 2nd house ruler)--
>> I can't remember which and I don't have the chart, then it perfected
>> after being retrograde and coming back into the same sign.
>>
>> In other words it went rx, changed signs, then came back to the
>> significator in the old sign (Taurus) later and perfected.
>>
>> Just need your opinion (or fact). Thanks.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------
>> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>> ---------------------------------------------------------



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Thread: On-line debate
From: JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:29:05 -0400

I just visited this site and I encourage anyone who has web access to check
it out (especially if you want to participate in the debate). It has
beautiful and intriguing graphics, and it's easy to navigate and use.
Congratulations Deborah! Many more awards will be coming your way I'm
sure.

-JoAnne



Thread: Hairdressing Sheers
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:56:56 -0700 (PDT)

Whoops.
Please treat my earlier comments on this chart with caution. Moon rules the
seventh (the astrologer) and is in its detriment in Capricorn which suggests
the astrologer (me or anyone else who tries to judge the chart) is unlikely
to give a sound judgement.

I am particuarly interested to see how accurate some of these considerations
are from experience so look forward to hearing the outcome.

All the best,
Jonathon



Thread: (Fwd) FW: Horary chart/Timing
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:59:41 -0700

Dear Denis,

I take the significators of success in this chart to be the application by
trine of the Moon (you) to the Sun, dispositor of Saturn which rules the
tenth of career.
The usual way of taking the unit of time indicated by each degree is as follows:

Significator in Cardinal sign and angular house - day
---------------"------------------succeedent house - week
---------------"------------------cadent house - month

Significator in Mutable sign and angular house - week
---------------"------------------succeedent house - month
---------------"------------------cadent house - year

Significator in Fixed sign and angular house - month
---------------"------------------succeedent house - year
---------------"------------------cadent house - indeterminate.

There are many references to timing in Lilly who suggests that the above
rules can be varied according to circumstance (and common sense). I made a
quick check to see if I could find the reference to fixed sign and cadent
house but couldn't find it - does anyone know the source for this?

Anyway, to your chart.

The Moon is in a fixed sign, Taurus, and cadent house, the twelfth, so I
suggest it is not possible to tell when you would achieve your goal. If one
were to adjust the measurements to the next quickest option then I would say
each degree is equivalent to a year and the answer is just over a year since
the Moon and Sun are one degree and 8 minutes apart from their exact trine.
It might take slightly longer since both the Moon and sun are slow in motion.

I should be interested to know what happened.
All the best,
Jonathon





>
>: DENIS LABOURE [SMTP:Laboure@wanadoo.fr]
>Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:35 AM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Horary chart/Timing
>
>Carol,
>
>May I show you this horary :
>
>Data : 13 September 1976 09.20 PM GMT Champdieu (4E03 45N36).(13° Gemini
>rising).
>
>Question : "Serai-je astrologue professionnel plus tard ?" (Shall I
>become a professional astrologer ?)
>
>The right answer is "yes". My practice is well established. But I have
>never found how it should have been possible to find the exact year (and
>month ?). Could anybody give this year and explain the technicalities ?
>
>Please, rectify my poor English.
>
>Thanks a lot.
>
>Denis Labouré 3, avenue de la Libération 42000 Saint-Etienne France.
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>or traditional@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-
>JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
>Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
>No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern
print.
>Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
>horary_astrology@compuserve.com
>http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall
>
>



Thread: Hair designer sheers......lost?
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:59:45 -0700 (PDT)

Dear Vyri,
Re: your scissors
Chart is radical with Jupiter as Lord of the hour angular.

You are signified by Saturn (and the Moon)

The scissors are signified by Jupiter (and Moon as natural ruler of lost
objects)

Lord of the second, Jupiter, in the first says they are whey you spend most
of your time. Retrograde Jupiter says they come back to you - suddenly and
unexpectedly.
If you were following last week's debate you might try looking in the cat's
basket, if you have one!

Jupiter's still very close sextile to Saturn, albeit separating, suggests
they are not far away.
Saturn square to the Ascendant but equivalent to a sextile in signs of short
ascension says you are in contact with them.

Moon (lost obhject) applies to a square with Mars, dispositor of Lord of the
Ascendant, Saturn. Application is not out of good houses although they are
both in cardinal signs. Mars would also be the natural ruler of scissors.
This may give the timing for recovery - just under two months as Moon and
Mars are just under two degrees short of the square. May be quicker since
Moon is very fast.

Looking at the balance of the directions from the various indicators I
should suggest the sector of the house that runs from South to North East
and probably upstairs.

Fourth house ruler, Venus, in Leo. Possibly near other equipment used for
beautification (Venus) such as other hairdressing tools and something which
uses heat e.g. hairdryer, curling tongs etc.

Theft? Very possibly since the Sun is conjunct the Descendant - peregrine
planet angular indicates theft.

Hope this is of some help - let me know what happens.
All the best,
Jonathon


>Dear Friends in Astrology, I have been learning and lurking, and lurking and
>learning for some time now in the shadows, and haven't really introduced
>myself to the members as yet, I really do love your forum, and have greatly
>benefited from it these last 4 months. I am hoping to inlist your help with a
>horary question I've experienced some confusion in delineating, so to those
>interested,.... I had been on vacation for awhile, and had made a decision
>not to take along my expensive designer haircutting shears, and thought they
>would be safe in my home as I was having it watched over by my sisters live
>in boyfriend, who had the key to my house, but on returning home found them
>gone(or misplaced?), where as some other mysterious incidents had happened
>also concerning the well keeping of my home. This is a man of 50ish and has a
>few eccentric ways about him. I did not wish to believe he had removed them
>so I asked the question; "Where are my scissors?", yet underlying was the
>unconscious thought too; "Has John(the friend) taken them, for hidden
>vindictive reasons?" As for my experience in Horary, and traditional
>Astrology, I have been involved with the Rosicrucian Order Amorc, for the
>last 30 years, learning... lurking, and well, you get the picture. Thank you
>for any help you may send my way,...... All the traditional signs point to
>them still being in the home (hopefully), but there's good ole' Nebulous
>Neptune in my first too. The time of the question; 8:35pm/DST/July
>l8th,l997/45N31'/123W01; I have 22'Capricorn08 Rising in this chart (that I
>find accurately describes my frame of mind)/'20Libra09ScorpioMC.Thanks
>again.........I am still looking.
>P.S. This man is a Cancer., and at times have found myself in fear of him.
>
>
>



Thread: Hair designer sheers......lost?
From: Vyri@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:47:15 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

Dear Friends in Astrology, I have been learning and lurking, and lurking and
learning for some time now in the shadows, and haven't really introduced
myself to the members as yet, I really do love your forum, and have greatly
benefited from it these last 4 months. I am hoping to inlist your help with a
horary question I've experienced some confusion in delineating, so to those
interested,.... I had been on vacation for awhile, and had made a decision
not to take along my expensive designer haircutting shears, and thought they
would be safe in my home as I was having it watched over by my sisters live
in boyfriend, who had the key to my house, but on returning home found them
gone(or misplaced?), where as some other mysterious incidents had happened
also concerning the well keeping of my home. This is a man of 50ish and has a
few eccentric ways about him. I did not wish to believe he had removed them
so I asked the question; "Where are my scissors?", yet underlying was the
unconscious thought too; "Has John(the friend) taken them, for hidden
vindictive reasons?" As for my experience in Horary, and traditional
Astrology, I have been involved with the Rosicrucian Order Amorc, for the
last 30 years, learning... lurking, and well, you get the picture. Thank you
for any help you may send my way,...... All the traditional signs point to
them still being in the home (hopefully), but there's good ole' Nebulous
Neptune in my first too. The time of the question; 8:35pm/DST/July
l8th,l997/45N31'/123W01; I have 22'Capricorn08 Rising in this chart (that I
find accurately describes my frame of mind)/'20Libra09ScorpioMC.Thanks
again.........I am still looking.
P.S. This man is a Cancer., and at times have found myself in fear of him.


Thread: On-line debate
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:57:53 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

Dear Deborah Houlding:
Please give us the url again for the new website. AOL seems to have some
trouble making it out. Thanks.
Joseph Crane


Thread: Subscribe
From: dkirk@cats.ucsc.edu (David Kirk) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:51:55 -0700

subscribe




Thread: On-line debate
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:30:44 -0400

I thought that members would be interested to know of a new web site called
ASTROLOGY WORLD, which is now hosting the ASCELLA site. It is of
particular interest to members of this list as it includes an on-line
'debate' section which makes strong reference to the activities here. (Be
warned, you may not like the content!).

The URL is:

http://www.astrology-world.com

If you care to make a response, we will include it on the page.

If anyone is interested in becoming a member or having a home page featured
on the site, details can be found via the link at the bottom of the home
page.

You might also like to know that the Ascella site, which is now hosted on
ASTROLOGY WORLD has been the recipient of 3 prestigious content and design
awards within the last two weeks. Details are available on the site. If
you would like to have the contents of the 17th century text 'An
Astrological Judgement Touching Theft', you can print it out from the
Ascella site.

Best wishes,

Deborah Houlding


Thread: FW: Horary chart/Timing
From: "Carol A.Wiggers" <cwiggers@halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:48:39 -0700
Status: U


------ =_NextPart_000_01BC9568.2E1692E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

: DENIS LABOURE [SMTP:Laboure@wanadoo.fr]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 10:35 AM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Horary chart/Timing

Carol,

May I show you this horary :

Data : 13 September 1976 09.20 PM GMT Champdieu (4E03 45N36).(13=B0 =
Gemini=20
rising).

Question : "Serai-je astrologue professionnel plus tard ?" (Shall I=20
become a professional astrologer ?)

The right answer is "yes". My practice is well established. But I have=20
never found how it should have been possible to find the exact year (and =

month ?). Could anybody give this year and explain the technicalities ?

Please, rectify my poor English.

Thanks a lot.

Denis Labour=E9 3, avenue de la Lib=E9ration 42000 Saint-Etienne France.
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Thread: FW: Update Mailinglists and Newsletters
From: "Carol A.Wiggers" <cwiggers@halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:47:02 -0700
Status: U


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Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol.,QHP ------JustUs & Associates Publishing
1420 NW Gilman Blvd., Suite #2154, Issaquah, WA 98027-7001 USA
phone 425-391-8371 Fax 425-392-1919 (please note area code change)
Horary & Electional Courses, Consultations, Software, Magazines & Rare
Books
http://www.horary.com On-Line Shopping Mall now available
Powered by Make-A-Store at http://www.make-a-store.com
William Lilly Private mailing list william_lilly@halcyon.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Tees Reitsma [SMTP:tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl]
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 1997 12:02 AM
To: astro-class-level1@efn.org
Cc: astro-healing@efn.org; astro-psychology@efn.org; astro-romance@efn.org;
astrologia@telconet.net; astrologie-l@internem.be;
athena@medicinegarden.com; exegesis@astrologer.com; festival@esosoft.com;
freedom@cola.castle.net; jyotish@world.std.com; mercury@astrologer.com;
prometeu-l@fogodofuturo.com.br; ptolomeo@activanet.es;
solstix@centroin.com.br; stars@badweb.com; william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Update Mailinglists and Newsletters

Please feel free to copy and publish this information!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now free of charge available via email:

USENET NEWSGROUPS
=================

"alt.astrology" - born July 29, 1991, 18:22:38 AEST (08:22:38 GMT),
Sydney, Australia (33S52 151E13)

"de.alt.astrologie" - in the German language, born January 5, 1994,
19:14:54 MET, Tuebingen, Germany (48N31 09E02)

"alt.jyotish" - born Jan. 5, 1995 21:28:33 GMT, Honolulu, Hawaii,
USA (21N19 157W52).

"alt.astrology.asian" - born May 9, 1995 00:08:56 GMT, Anaheim, CA,
USA (33N50 117W54).

"alt.astrology.marketplace" - born June 28, 1996, 09:17:30 pm PDT
(04:17:30 GMT June 29), San Diego, CA, USA
(32N43 117W09).
For astrological ADVERTISING!

"alt.astrology.metapsych" - born November 24, 1996, 02:05 am PST
La Jolla, CA, USA (32N51 117W16)

NOTE:
====
The "International Congress Agenda" is posted every weekend
to several of these newsgroups.
See also URL: http://www.astropro.com/features/conxions/


MAILINGLISTS
============

"CHAOS" - birthdate April 1, 1995, 12 noon, Bearsville, New York
(74W09, 42N02), U.S.A. To subscribe send Email
to: list-request@badweb.com with the message:
join stars yourname@address Firstname Lastname
and you will receive all details. This list has
no moderator.
URL: http://badweb.com/chaos/

"PSYCH" - born September 21, 1995, 14:40 BST, London, England,
for psychological astrology. To subscribe send
Email to: listserver@astrologer.com with the
message: subscribe psych
end
and you will receive all details. Moderator: Dermod
Moore.
URL: http://www.astrologer.com/psychast

"FESTIVAL" - born November 29, 1995, 20:54 GMT, Elyria, Ohio, USA
(41N22 82W07). To subscribe send Email to:
majordomo@esosoft.com with the message: subscribe
festival and you will receive all details.
Moderator: Sandra Rozhon.
URL: http://www.cyberdrive.net/~srozhon/festival

"EXEGESIS" - born March 28, 1996 at 12:26 pm EST, 40N25.2 79W52.8
To subscribe send Email to: listserver@astrologer.com
with the message: subscribe exegesis and you will
receive all details. Moderator: Francis G. Kostella.
URL: http://www3.pgh.net/~fgk/exegesis/exegesis.html

"ASTROLOGIE-L" - born June 16, 1996 at 14:28 GMT, Brussels,
Belgium. This mailinglist is in the FRENCH language.
To subscribe send Email to: listserver@internem.be
with the message: SUBSCRIBE Astrologie-L LastName
FirstName and you will receive all details. This
list has no moderator.
URL: http://www.internem.be/astrologie/

"WILLIAM LILLY" - born July 28, 1996 at 6:22 am PDT, 123W41 38N54,
for traditional astrology. To subscribe send Email
to: william_lilly@halcyon.com or
traditional@halcyon.com with the word:
subscribe as subject and you will receive all
details. Moderator: Carol A. Wiggers.
URL: http://www.horary.com

"FREEDOM" - born October 6, 1996, 3:40pm EDT, South Plainfield,
NJ, USA (74W25 40N35). To subscribe send Email to:
server@cola.castle.net with the message: join freedom
yourname@address Firstname Lastname and you will
receive all details. This list has no moderator.
URL: http://www.qis.net/~jschmitz/freedom

"JYOTISH" - born November 1, 1996 at 13:34:24 PST at El Monte, CA,
USA (34N04 118W02) for Hindu astrology. To subscribe
send Email to: majordomo@world.std.com with the
message: subscribe jyotish-list and you will receive
all details.

"ASTROLOGIA" - born November 11, 1996 00:01 (12:01 pm) at Guayaquil,
Ecuador (02S10 79W50). This mailinglist is in the
SPANISH language, but other languages are allowed.
To subscribe send Email to: majordomo@telconet.net
with the message: subscribe astrologia and you will
receive all details. Moderator: Carlos Santos Puig.

"MERCURY" - born January 23, 1997, 09:08:30 am EST, Hurley, N.Y.,
USA for astrological writers. To subscribe send
Email to: listserver@astrologer.com with the
message: subscribe mercury
end
and you will receive all details. Moderator:
Eric Francis.
URL: http://www.mhv.net/~efrancis

"ATHENA" - born January 26, 1997, 20:00 CDT, Dallas, Texas, USA,
for medical astrology and wholistic healing. To
subscribe send Email to:
Athena-request@MedicineGarden.com with the
message: JOIN athena youremail@address
and you will receive all details. Moderator:
Eileen Nauman.
URL: http://www.medicinegarden.com

"SOLSTIX" - born February 5, 1997, 03:44 am, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
This mailinglist is in the PORTUGUESE language. To
subscribe send Email to: majordomo@centroin.com.br
with the message: subscribe solstix yourname@address
end
Moderator: Marcus Vinicius Wanick VannuZINI.
URL: http://web.cip.com.br/zinet/

"ASTRO-HEALING" - born April 22, 1997 at 20:34 GMT, Eugene, OR, USA.
To subscribe send Email to: majordomo@efn.org with
the message: subscribe astro-healing and you will
receive all details. Moderator: Patricia Robinett.
URL: http://www.efn.org/~patricia

"ASTRO-ROMANCE" - born April 22, 1997 at 20:34 GMT, Eugene, OR, USA.
To subscribe send Email to: majordomo@efn.org with
the message: subscribe astro-romance and you will
receive all details. Moderator: Patricia Robinett.
URL: http://www.efn.org/~patricia

"ASTRO-CLASS-LEVEL1" - born April 22, 1997 at 20:34 GMT, Eugene, OR,
USA. To subscribe send Email to: majordomo@efn.org
with the message: subscribe astro-class-level1 and
you will receive all details. Moderator: Patricia
Robinett.
URL: http://www.efn.org/~patricia

"ACT" - born April 28, 1997 at 4:58 pm EDT, Big Rapids, MI, USA
(43N42 89W29). Invited panelists discuss
astrological theory and techniques, while
questions and commments may be submitted.
To subscribe send Email to: ACT@TheNewAge.com
with the message: SUBSCRIBE and you will receive
all details. Moderator: Michael Erlewine.
URL: http://205.186.189.2/astrology/act.htm

"SOLAR-HEART" - born May 2, 1997 at 10:25 am MDT, Denver, CO, USA.
To subscribe send Email to: astrclub@diac.com with
the word "subscribe" in the subject area and you
will receive all details. Moderator: Adam J. Sterling.

"ASTRO-PSYCHOLOGY" - born May 26, 1997 at 23:55 PDT, Eugene, OR,

USA. To subscribe send Email to: majordomo@efn.org
with the message: subscribe astro-psychology
end
and you will receive all details.
URL: http://www.efn.org/~patricia

"CHA*OSBABIES" - born June 11, 1997 at 23:25 EDT, Montclair, New
Jersey, USA to discuss children and family issues.
To subscribe send Email to: list-request@badweb.com
with the message: join children Yourname@address
Firstname Lastname and you will receive all details.
URL: URL: http://badweb.com/chaos/

"PTOLOMEO" - born June 13, 1997, 11:45 GMT, Barcelona, Spain
(41N23 02E11) for professional astrologers in the
SPANISH, PORTUGUESE, ITALIAN and FRENCH languages.
To subscribe send Email to:
majordomo@prometeo.activanet.es with the message:
subscribe ptolomeo and you will receive all details.
Moderators: J.Lluis Albareda & J.Lluis de Argila.


EMAIL NEWSLETTERS
=================

"The Navigator" - born April 13, 1995 at 20:49 uur EDT, Rosendale,
NY, USA. (41N51 74W05). Editor: Eric Francis. To
subscribe send Email to: navigator@mhv.net with
the message: subscribe navigator yourname@address
URL: http://www.mhv.net/~efrancis

"Astrolist" - born in 1995. Editor: Carol B. Willis. To subscribe
send Email to: cbwillis@netcom.com with the
message: subscribe astrolist.

"AAmail" - of the Astrological Association of Great Britain,
started March 12, 1996 at 08:02:55 GMT with the
first bi-monthly Email edition. To subscribe
send Email to: listserver@astrologer.com with the
message: subscribe AAmail
end
URL: http://www.astrologer.com/aanet

"The Connection" - Prodigy's bi-weekly Newsletter, born May 15,
1996, White Plains, N.Y., U.S.A. To subscribe send
Email to: majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com with the
message: subscribe astrology.
URL: http://goodstuff.prodigy.com/Mailing_Lists/
astrology.html

"AstroMind Newsletter" - born June 5, 1997 at 16:35:29 EDT,
Riverview, FL, USA. Editor: Randall Collins. To
subscribe send Email to: FirstGoat@aol.com with
the subject: subscribe and message: AstroMind
Newsletter.
URL: http://members.aol.com/FirstGoat/index.htm

"Informativo" - born June 26, 1997, at 16:07 CED, Valencia,
Spain (39N28 0W22), in the SPANISH language.
Editor: Alberto Quilis. To subscribe send Email
to: gracent9@abaforum.es with the message:
subscribe Informativo.
Love,
Tees
---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

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------ =_NextPart_000_01BC9568.27FF2020--



Thread: Does this electional chart bite?
From: Jewell Starsinger <jewellstar@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:20:30 -0700
Status: U

John Reder wrote:
>
> At 02:23 PM 7/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >I have a chart made for me a while ago for my business. Now that i have
> >been reading your group, I am afraid that this chart is a disaster and
> >my business is evidence of the possibility. The data follows: July
> >20,1994. at 10:30am in Palm Springs, Ca. 33N49 116W32. Moon is in
> >Capricorn. I just found out that is a no-no. He did put the North Node
> >in the second house with Jupiter, but they are in Scorpio. Venus is in
> >the twelfth in Virgo. The POF is in the sixth. My business has been
> >art and I did fairly well for the first two years, though I needed some
> >financial assistance. I was doing quite well as a counseling astrologer,
> >also. I was not getting rich, but I got by and was pleased with the
> >responses to my ads and such. Calls were coming in regularly for art
> >sales and the galleries were getting interested. At the first of this
> >year something happened. the bottom fell out. I have not made one penny
> >since January. Of course I did have Pluto go station at 5 degrees
> >opposing my Natal sun in the twelfth house at 5 degrees Gemini. Am I
> >barking up the wrong tree? Thanks for any comments.
> >
> >
> >
>
> First off on the " He did put the North Node in the second house
> with Jupiter, but they are in Scorpio." Who is he? Did someone tell you
> when to start your business and just what DIDN'T you see was wrong with this
> chart?
> The Moon is not in Capricorn, but Void of Course at 29 Sag. That is
> the big, "this is going nowhere" indication. There is nothing wrong with
> Jupiter in the 2nd in Scorpio. In fact it probably kept you afloat longer
> than would be possible without it.
> The real problem is Venus (of art) in the 12th square Mars. (also ruling
> the money/debt 2nd & 8th). Plus throw in retrograde Saturn in the 6th to
> form a perfectly murderous exact T-Square.
> As it sounds right now, I don't understand how "HE" could say this
> was anything but a disaster in the making astrologically.
> I would say shame on "HE" for giving you bad advice, but if you say
> you do astrological counseling and you didn't know this BASIC! BASIC!
> BASIC!, stuff. SHAME ON YOU!
>
> _\|/_
> (o o)
> -----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
> John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)
Dear John,
Thanks for your opinion. Gee, I did not expect a spanking. In my
defense, the chart was devised when I had been into my studies for about
a year and knew less than I do now. Presently I am a psychological
astrologer and basically unfamiliar with the tenets of Mundane. "He"
who devised the errant chart was a friend who claimed expertise in the
area of electional charts, not a practising professional (have no fear
that 'he' is out in the world doing horrible damage to astrology's
reputation.) "I" being the trusting Moon conjunct Neptune in Libra "Oh
rilly?" kind of a gal had no flipping clue.
According to my Solar Fire program the moon is at 0 Cap 00, not 29
Sag. Do you really think that would make a difference? The void of
course thing, yes? But then no, considering how hopelessly ----ed the
thing is. Now what do you suggest an errant, shamed artistic
individual might do? Would you change your name? Start a new
business? Burn the crummy chart? Move to Rio? (Pleae tell me that's
the only solution!)
You mentioned the sad state of Venus in the chart and that she rules
the second house, but my understanding is ... The second house is ruled
by Saturn, this being a diurnal chart, with the degree on the cusp at 25
Libra. That's according to Lee Lehman's "Almuten Rulers by Degree". If
it were a nocturnal chart then Venus would rule the 25th degree. Any
hoo, it probably makes no difference, since Venus and Saturn are in
difficult aspect anyway.
Does anyone out there have a remedial measure for this comedy of
error? Will I be able to recover my business or shall I throw in the
towel?
Any one else want to dance? I may not know all the steps yet, but I've
got de nacheral ridim! Thanks again, John, your comments have been
enlilghtening.
Jewell


Thread: Mail list problems
From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:51:11 +7

Dear List Members,

We have been having problems with the Pegasus Mail program we are
using. When you have over 600 people on the list and the mail
program goes bad you can imagine what kind of mess this presents.
Over the weekend we are going to try to find a better way of handling
the mail list to prevent getting the "undeliverable mail" message
even though the mail is going through. The undeliverables clog the
system and my server is not happy.

We also had complaints that personal mail was coming to some of you.
I don't know how this is happening but it is one more reason why this
has to be looked into. It may be necessary to obtain another address
on a separate server to prevent this. I will send out notices as
soon as I know for sure what I will have to do to prevent this from
happening again.

As if that was not enough, I am having problems with the answering
system on my phone which is computerized and will also have to be
looked into over the weekend. I hope to have everything up and
running by the first of the week.

If anyone knows any other mail program that is available for large
distribution lists (that work) please let me know at my compuserve
address horary_astrology@compuserve.com

Thank you.
Carol

==========================
Carol A. Wiggers,D.M.S.Astrol.
JustUs & Associates Publishing
1420 NW Gilman Blvd. Suite #2154
Issaquah, WA 98027-7001
phone (206)391-8371 fax(206)392-1919
Visit our new secure shopping mall at
http://www.horary.com
Powered by Make-A-Store at http://www.make-a-store.com
cwiggers@halcyon.com


Thread: Lenses et al
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:18:47 +0100


>>Hey group
>>It is a real baffler the timing thing. I have been thinking about it quite a
>>bit recently, why they were discovered the moment when they were. Perhaps
>>there is another horary moment that occurred durin the days before the time
>>that I actually asked the question that is equally radical, although the
>>horary itself is radical. I remember the time when I first discovered that I
>>had lost them - 8th July 1997 18:36 BST Cabinteely. I had a look at this
>>chart and compared it with the horary and the time when I discovered it ti
>>see if it shed any light on it, but nothing comes immediately to light.
>>One interesting thing I did after the horary was to ask for help from Saint
>>Anthony - the patron saint of lost and found, , and well he came good,
>>didn't he. That is very descriptive of the angled JU in the horary don,t,
>>you think?
>>All the best
>>Andrew
>>
>>
>
Yes, I believe in angels, and saints, and grace and intervention ... it's
comforting and it works ...

Love,

pat.



Thread: Andrew Cunanan
From: DKPaiger@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:02:20 -0400 (EDT)

I think we should put our collective astro gifts together and figure out
where this guy is. His birthday is 8/31/69, that's all the info I have. I'm
not sure which time to use for the event/horary chart, unless it is right now
as I feel compelled to write this. (7:56 am EDT, 80W/28N)

Anyone up for this mighty challenge??

Good Luck--DKPaiger


Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:40:52 EDT

*** Resending note of 07/17/97 09:38

Doesn't Lilly also support this? CA p299:
"10 See from what planet the moon is separated, that planet shewes what
hath already been done: if from a fortune good; if from a malevolent, ill;
according to the nature of the house, etc."

On the other hand, perhaps the key words here are "passed over", and
"separated", as obviously, separation can be from any aspect, not necessarily
a conjunction; whereas "passed over" presumably has to mean conjunct.
Any thoughts?

Angela

*** Forwarding note from I2049242--IBMMAIL 07/16/97 19:38 ***
=========================================================================
From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
To: DKPaiger@aol.com, william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:09:05 +7
Subject: Re: Where are my contact lenses?

Technically for the time period we are studying it is more like
this-- look at the aspects the moon made BEFORE the question was
asked to see the past events. "the planet the moon passed over" is
from Ivy, I know because I have slipped and used it a time or too!
Love & Light
Carol
> From: DKPaiger@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:55:09 -0400 (EDT)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Subject: Re: Where are my contact lenses?

> Just my 2 cents--the planet the moon last passed over, no matter how far
> back, will tell the event, it's nature and approximate date in relation to
> the subject.
>
>
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern
print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall


---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME



Thread: Announcement
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:46:45 +0100

>July 16, 1997 1:33PM
>
>Dear List Members,
>
>Thanks for your support in the Project Hindsight matter. I appreciate
>all the letters that were sent through the list and to my private
>address.


Hello, Carol,

Take it from one with personal experience of this kind of thing - it will
all come right, in the end. And the great thing about these "explosions" is
that they do seem to unite the community, generally - reinforce its unity
publicly and privately, as a result. And you have done NOTHING WRONG.

Lots of love,

Pat.



Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: DKPaiger@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:55:09 -0400 (EDT)

Just my 2 cents--the planet the moon last passed over, no matter how far
back, will tell the event, it's nature and approximate date in relation to
the subject.


Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: Andrew Smith <dastroc@iol.ie> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:54:26 +0100

Well Pat
I think it is a ral possibility that I was at my PC before the lenses went
walk about. Wispa usually jumps up on my desk when she thinks I have worked
too long without a rest and when she decides that I have to give her some
more attention!! So I wouldn't be too surprised if that was actually the case!
Andrew
At 21:35 15/07/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear Andrew,
>
>I've just been checking back through some old exercises of mine from the
>Autumn of 1994 on lost and mislaid articles. One of the clues as to what
>the querent was last doing when the thing went missing is given by the
>planet from which the significator for the querent is most recently
>separating at time of question. Mars is separating from Uranus in the
>third. Were you working in the attic, writing on a word processor just
>before your lenses went walkies into the cat basket, by any chance?
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Pat.
>
>
>
>



Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:09:05 +7

Technically for the time period we are studying it is more like
this-- look at the aspects the moon made BEFORE the question was
asked to see the past events. "the planet the moon passed over" is
from Ivy, I know because I have slipped and used it a time or too!
Love & Light
Carol
> From: DKPaiger@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:55:09 -0400 (EDT)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Subject: Re: Where are my contact lenses?

> Just my 2 cents--the planet the moon last passed over, no matter how far
> back, will tell the event, it's nature and approximate date in relation to
> the subject.
>
>
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall


Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:30:50 +0100
Status: U

>Delighted to hear your lenses are safe, Andrew. Seems like the ambivalence
>of high and low locations is perfectly described by the floor of the attic.
>
>You mention the sixth house being signified by Mars - I thought Aries on the
>sixth of sickness appropriately described the part of your body (head) that
>was suffering the loss.
>
>Have just checked Lilly to find that Persia is ruled by Taurus and that
>Saturn rules cats - pity, it would have been a nice end to find a better
>connection. Never mind.
>All the best,
>Jonathon


Jonathon,

This is wonderfully appropriate! Saturn rules CATS and, as the ruler of the
4th, it is the planet which will describe where the missing thing is (Lilly
CA). Just purrrfect, in fact .....

Regards,

Pat.



Thread: Lenses et al
From: Andrew Smith <dastroc@iol.ie> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:01:12 +0100
Status: U

Hey group
It is a real baffler the timing thing. I have been thinking about it quite a
bit recently, why they were discovered the moment when they were. Perhaps
there is another horary moment that occurred durin the days before the time
that I actually asked the question that is equally radical, although the
horary itself is radical. I remember the time when I first discovered that I
had lost them - 8th July 1997 18:36 BST Cabinteely. I had a look at this
chart and compared it with the horary and the time when I discovered it ti
see if it shed any light on it, but nothing comes immediately to light.
One interesting thing I did after the horary was to ask for help from Saint
Anthony - the patron saint of lost and found, , and well he came good,
didn't he. That is very descriptive of the angled JU in the horary don,t,
you think?
All the best
Andrew



Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: Andrew Smith <dastroc@iol.ie> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:01:10 +0100
Status: U

Hey there Pat

At 17:17 15/07/97 +0100, you wrote:

>>As we have now established, the lense are indeed back with me. What is
>>interesting to note is that they were ultimately with the cat therefore the
>>6th house. So the sextile between JU and SA provided the answer. What do you
>>think about this?
>
>I see that the ruler of the 4th - which is Saturn - is in the 6th house of
>work and small animals and, as Lilly says the ruler of the 4th describes the
>place where the missing thing is - it appears that it's good old Lilly
>again, folks! He confined the description to "dark places", however - which
>I think is pretty good for a cat basket! - but I wonder, Andrew, is your cat
>is dark grey or black? Perhaps we could look at the ruler of the 4th's
>house placement for further description of where a missing thing is to see
>if that helps in future questions?
Wispa, I suppose we better call her by her name as she is geting so much
attention at the moment, gee I wonder what is happening to her chart for her
to be the centre of all these messages!!!!!! Pity I don't have one for her.
Anyway I digress. Wispa is tortoise shell, which is a mixture of blacks,
browns, whites, sandy colours, actually she's a real beautie! with a flat
face!!!!

>
>
>>Anyway the timing aspect is intriguing as I cannot find as yet the reason in
>>the chart that the lense were rediscovered in such a short time after asking
>>the question. Perhaps this may be an interesting exercise to discover what
>>perfected in the chart to bring the lenses to the surface.
>>Lenses discovered: 13:04 BST 11th July 1997 Cabinteely, 53N15 6W09 30
>
>Yes, I'm rather stumped on this one, too, and would appreciate thoughts from
>everyone else. Jupiter and Saturn were 37 minutes away from exactitude in
>the question which might indicate, symbolically, just over half a day as
>Jupiter was angular but the lenses were found just over 2 and a half hours
>short of a full day from time of asking question.
>
>I looked at the chart for your moment of finding the lenses and it very
>appropriately had Mars on the Ascendant - considering Mars ruled you and the
>lenses in the question.
Yeap I noticed that too. I had a look at the interaction between the
antiscia points and both charts to see if anything came up there, and I drew
a blank. Are there any more detectives out there that could help us out here?

Andrew



Thread: Uranus over Ascendent
From: Vicjames@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:29:16 -0400 (EDT)

I am an amateur astrologer and have found the dialogues over the last 2 weeks
fascinating - especially the Project Hindsight issue. ............
I have a few questions. I fell into uranian astrology because of the
astrologer I had been using in NYC for 12 years and am interested in
dialoging with others who have this knowledge base - it's hard to find others
who use it and I find some conflict in what I consider traditional and
uranian - maybe you all could help me resolve the conflicts. Secondly, I
accepted a new position on the day that uranus was retrograding over my
ascendent - does this bode well? Here is my birthdate 4/13/52 2:17 am,
Newark, NJ - received offer at my 3rd interview on 7/10/97 at about 12:30 PM.
Thank you.


Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:35:18 +0100

Dear Andrew,

I've just been checking back through some old exercises of mine from the
Autumn of 1994 on lost and mislaid articles. One of the clues as to what
the querent was last doing when the thing went missing is given by the
planet from which the significator for the querent is most recently
separating at time of question. Mars is separating from Uranus in the
third. Were you working in the attic, writing on a word processor just
before your lenses went walkies into the cat basket, by any chance?

Kind regards,

Pat.




Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:17:33 +0100

Dear Andrew,

Many thanks for your very encouraging reply. Isn't it wonderful when it
works out! Also, thank you to Jonathan for his very kind remarks which I do
appreciate - I will pass them on to William Lilly. But I also have to say
that the question of distinguishing between lost or mislaid was "rammed
home" to me in unforgettable circumstances by Olivia Barclay so I must thank
her for my presence of mind, on this one! (Ye Gods, this is beginning to
sound like an "Oscars" speech - would that it were .....)

Can I repay the compliment to Jonathan by saying that he was absolutley
right, it seems, in observing that the return would be "unexpected" - which
he attributed to retrograde Jupiter (is this a Lilly interpretation, by the
way?)

>Pat
>Hi there. Thanks for replying to my question. I sent a general reply to the
>list before reading your answer. It is quite an incredible answer and it is
>one of the most accurate assessments of the situation. I do not think anyone
>could of seen the twist in the story, perhaps it is something that we could
>look at. Perhaps when you finish reading this note, you maybe in a position
>to clarify it?
>
>At 21:54 14/07/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Dear Andrew,
>>
>>I logged onto this interesting discussion today and picked up everyone's
>>analyses of your question. I read through them - very interesting, indeed,
>>to see a range of different approaches - but, have to say, that I have come
>>up with another, different, analysis.
>>
>>Here it is:
>>
>>The chart is radical because Jupiter, ruler of the hour, and Mars, ruler of
>>the chart, occupy the same triplicity.
>
>The chart is given further radicality by the fact that Ju is my own Sun
>ruler and is angular in SG at the IC.
>>
>>Mars is your ruler but also rules the second (just!) which makes me think
>>that you and the lenses are close together and that their disappearance has
>>something to do with you and your action. I think, coonsequently, that it
>>might be important to consider the 4th house ruler for locating the lenses's
>>whereabouts because they may have been mislaid by you. Lilly in CA advises
>>that the ruler of the 4th house will describe the place where the missing
>>thing is. So, the 4th house is, I feel, important in seeking an answer to
>>your question.
>
>Which raises the question of when is an object MISLAID or LOST? As it turns
>out the lenses were not lost, but mislaid at home, so your assessment of the
>importance of the 4th house is spot on.
>
>>
>>Aquarius on the 4th is a westerly sign which, indoors, rules the eaves and
>>upper parts of the house and the roof. The Lord of the 4th is Saturn and
>>Saturn rules a dark place or dark part of the house, in this instance. So,
>>the lenses appear to be in a westerly direction from where you were at the
>>time of asking your question and in the upper part of the house in a room
>>with, I would think, a sloping roof (because of Aquarius on the 4th ruling
>>the roof).
>
>The lenses were indeed found west of where I asked the question. I work in
>the attic as I pointed out in my reply. It is the biggest room in the house
>and has a sloping ceiling. However as to the darkest room in the house,
>attics general are dark, but as mine is converted as is quite bright.
>However SA is in the 6th and I do work from there!!
>
>>
>>Looking at Mars as the ruler of the second house and ruler of the lenses,
>>themselves, the planet is in Libra which rulers upper rooms in houses, such
>>as chambers, garrets and one chamber within another, if indoors. Libra is
>>also associated with the westerly direction.
>
>The attic is partioned in to three sections as the chimney triects the room,
>therefore in a sense there are chambers within chambers. Equally the lenses
>were eventually found in a dark place within another chamber - the cat basket!!
>
>>
>>Perhaps you had them on you, in a pocket or something, that Sunday when you
>>last recollect having them and you took off the clothes and put them away in
>>a wardrobe or cupboard in a bedroom with a sloping roof - the dark place -
>>which is west from where you were when you asked the question. Perhaps you
>>should search a room in this area of the house which has a chamber within a
>>chamber and you will find them.
>
>As I replied before the only logical explanation for the lenses ending up
>with the cat is that they fell from my clothing whilst playing with her on
>Sunday/ Monday.
>
>>
>>Because Sagittarius is intercepted in the second, Jupiter is also considered
>>a co-ruler and is retrograde and this may be taken as an indication that the
>>lenses will return to you. Jupiter is also conjunct the 4th house which is
>>associated with mislaid objects. I note that Jupoter perfects a sextile to
>>Saturn (ruler of 4th) today or tomorrow by actual direction and perhaps this
>>is an indication that you will find them during this time?
>
>As we have now established, the lense are indeed back with me. What is
>interesting to note is that they were ultimately with the cat therefore the
>6th house. So the sextile between JU and SA provided the answer. What do you
>think about this?

I see that the ruler of the 4th - which is Saturn - is in the 6th house of
work and small animals and, as Lilly says the ruler of the 4th describes the
place where the missing thing is - it appears that it's good old Lilly
again, folks! He confined the description to "dark places", however - which
I think is pretty good for a cat basket! - but I wonder, Andrew, is your cat
is dark grey or black? Perhaps we could look at the ruler of the 4th's
house placement for further description of where a missing thing is to see
if that helps in future questions?


>Anyway the timing aspect is intriguing as I cannot find as yet the reason in
>the chart that the lense were rediscovered in such a short time after asking
>the question. Perhaps this may be an interesting exercise to discover what
>perfected in the chart to bring the lenses to the surface.
>Lenses discovered: 13:04 BST 11th July 1997 Cabinteely, 53N15 6W09 30

Yes, I'm rather stumped on this one, too, and would appreciate thoughts from
everyone else. Jupiter and Saturn were 37 minutes away from exactitude in
the question which might indicate, symbolically, just over half a day as
Jupiter was angular but the lenses were found just over 2 and a half hours
short of a full day from time of asking question.

I looked at the chart for your moment of finding the lenses and it very
appropriately had Mars on the Ascendant - considering Mars ruled you and the
lenses in the question.

>I have another question which may sound a little silly, but is it possible
>that, outside of teh moment of horary, another factor in horary is the
>interaction between quistor and quisited? Okay this question does not take
>into consideration those questions that are proposed by the astrologer him/
>herself, and indeed the horary moment can at times appear to be an
>independant moment in itself. But with respect to questions that are asked
>from one person to an astrologer, does anyone feel that strong synastic
>interaction between the astrologer and the person asking, facillitate one
>horary astrologer to arrive at the answer, over one who has weak. mild
>synastry with the person asking the quesiton?


Hmm, that's a deep one.... I'd like to think it was technique. In my case,
I have to say that it was Lilly's technique which proved to be of practical
value in this question; I just followed it but it is a nice feeling when it
all works out.

Kind regards,

Pat.



Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: Andrew Smith <dastroc@iol.ie> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:08:33 +0100

Pat
Hi there. Thanks for replying to my question. I sent a general reply to the
list before reading your answer. It is quite an incredible answer and it is
one of the most accurate assessments of the situation. I do not think anyone
could of seen the twist in the story, perhaps it is something that we could
look at. Perhaps when you finish reading this note, you maybe in a position
to clarify it?

At 21:54 14/07/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear Andrew,
>
>I logged onto this interesting discussion today and picked up everyone's
>analyses of your question. I read through them - very interesting, indeed,
>to see a range of different approaches - but, have to say, that I have come
>up with another, different, analysis.
>
>Here it is:
>
>The chart is radical because Jupiter, ruler of the hour, and Mars, ruler of
>the chart, occupy the same triplicity.

The chart is given further radicality by the fact that Ju is my own Sun
ruler and is angular in SG at the IC.
>
>Mars is your ruler but also rules the second (just!) which makes me think
>that you and the lenses are close together and that their disappearance has
>something to do with you and your action. I think, coonsequently, that it
>might be important to consider the 4th house ruler for locating the lenses's
>whereabouts because they may have been mislaid by you. Lilly in CA advises
>that the ruler of the 4th house will describe the place where the missing
>thing is. So, the 4th house is, I feel, important in seeking an answer to
>your question.

Which raises the question of when is an object MISLAID or LOST? As it turns
out the lenses were not lost, but mislaid at home, so your assessment of the
importance of the 4th house is spot on.

>
>Aquarius on the 4th is a westerly sign which, indoors, rules the eaves and
>upper parts of the house and the roof. The Lord of the 4th is Saturn and
>Saturn rules a dark place or dark part of the house, in this instance. So,
>the lenses appear to be in a westerly direction from where you were at the
>time of asking your question and in the upper part of the house in a room
>with, I would think, a sloping roof (because of Aquarius on the 4th ruling
>the roof).

The lenses were indeed found west of where I asked the question. I work in
the attic as I pointed out in my reply. It is the biggest room in the house
and has a sloping ceiling. However as to the darkest room in the house,
attics general are dark, but as mine is converted as is quite bright.
However SA is in the 6th and I do work from there!!

>
>Looking at Mars as the ruler of the second house and ruler of the lenses,
>themselves, the planet is in Libra which rulers upper rooms in houses, such
>as chambers, garrets and one chamber within another, if indoors. Libra is
>also associated with the westerly direction.

The attic is partioned in to three sections as the chimney triects the room,
therefore in a sense there are chambers within chambers. Equally the lenses
were eventually found in a dark place within another chamber - the cat basket!!

>
>Perhaps you had them on you, in a pocket or something, that Sunday when you
>last recollect having them and you took off the clothes and put them away in
>a wardrobe or cupboard in a bedroom with a sloping roof - the dark place -
>which is west from where you were when you asked the question. Perhaps you
>should search a room in this area of the house which has a chamber within a
>chamber and you will find them.

As I replied before the only logical explanation for the lenses ending up
with the cat is that they fell from my clothing whilst playing with her on
Sunday/ Monday.

>
>Because Sagittarius is intercepted in the second, Jupiter is also considered
>a co-ruler and is retrograde and this may be taken as an indication that the
>lenses will return to you. Jupiter is also conjunct the 4th house which is
>associated with mislaid objects. I note that Jupoter perfects a sextile to
>Saturn (ruler of 4th) today or tomorrow by actual direction and perhaps this
>is an indication that you will find them during this time?

As we have now established, the lense are indeed back with me. What is
interesting to note is that they were ultimately with the cat therefore the
6th house. So the sextile between JU and SA provided the answer. What do you
think about this?
Anyway the timing aspect is intriguing as I cannot find as yet the reason in
the chart that the lense were rediscovered in such a short time after asking
the question. Perhaps this may be an interesting exercise to discover what
perfected in the chart to bring the lenses to the surface.
Lenses discovered: 13:04 BST 11th July 1997 Cabinteely, 53N15 6W09 30

I have another question which may sound a little silly, but is it possible
that, outside of teh moment of horary, another factor in horary is the
interaction between quistor and quisited? Okay this question does not take
into consideration those questions that are proposed by the astrologer him/
herself, and indeed the horary moment can at times appear to be an
independant moment in itself. But with respect to questions that are asked
from one person to an astrologer, does anyone feel that strong synastic
interaction between the astrologer and the person asking, facillitate one
horary astrologer to arrive at the answer, over one who has weak. mild
synastry with the person asking the quesiton?

Thanks again for your help

Andrew



Thread: FW: Sinister/Dexter
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:20:31 EDT

I like the mnemonic, JoAnne. Thanks. The 'sinister' approach; and running
little 'Dexter' is a superb way of visualing what is happening and where!

Thanks again,

Angela



Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: Andrew Smith <dastroc@iol.ie> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:52:53 +0100

Hey there group.
Good news. I found my lenses!!!!!
Firstly may I thank each and everyone of you for your help in solving my
problem! The question asked gave rise to Jupiter signifying my lenses as the
Lord of the 2nd. What you may be interested to know is that Jupiter is my
Sun ruler, and itself is angular at the IC. Anyway, to answer the question
that I am sure you are all wondering "Where were they", I found them at
home, under my cat who was sleeping in the north east part of the attic.
Okay this raises the question how the hell did she get the lenses in the
first place. I use the attic quite a bit and possibly the fell from my
jacket and she (my cat) played with them and the ended up in her basket!
That's my logic anyway. Some of you refered to finding the lenses in my car
(mars' influence in the horary) but it interesting to note that Mars also
rules the 6th!! Someone mentioned that they maybe located near something of
Russian origin, does anyone know what planet is associated with Persia, as
my cat is a Persian mongrel!!!!!
There was some debate whether a retrograde planet means that the object i
question is gone for good or whether they will be returned. In this case
Lilly proves his genius again. The angled JU on the IC did indeed imply that
the lenses were at home; in air - a lofty place (Incidently the attic is the
BIGGEST room in the house. It has been converted and is painted bright
Turquoise (AQ on IC).
There were pieces in each of your interpretations that were very descriptive
and accurate. John Reder seems to have captured my state of mind very
succicently. In keeping with my Jupiterian nature I was looking in a
frantic, unsystematic approach. I wasnt looking at the time, but petting the
cat, when I noticed the lense case sticking out from under her!
For those interested in the time that it was found: Friday, 11th July 1997
13:04PM BST. Sorry I didnt get a chance to reply earlier, I was running a
synastry workshop all weekend. Anyway thanks again for your help.
Andrew

At 02:57 11/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Please see below for my comments which I've attached to John Reder's response.
>Jonathon>
>
>
>At 04:54 PM 7/10/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>>Where are my contact lenses?
>>>Question asked at 3:41 pm BST on the 10th July 1997 in Cabinteely, (53N15
>>>06W09 30).
> Jupiter is fixed and retrograde
>A retrograde planet means , I suggest, the opposite, that
>the goods may be returned suddenly and without trouble (p. 467 Christian
>Astrology, for example)
>Jupiter, according to the chart I have, is only the part ruler of the
>second, the cusp falling at 29 degrees 45 minutes Scorpio. This certainly
>makes Jupiter a major significator for the lenses but not the only one. Mars
>rules the first and the second which suggests a connection between the owner
>and his lenses. This is re-inforced by Jupiter's antiscion falling at 9
>degrees 30 minutes of Scorpio, close to the Ascendant.
>
>The void of course Moon doesn't help but it, together with the North Node,
>is helpfully placed on the cusp of the eleventh of hopes and wishes.
>
>Mars, according to my chart is also in the eleventh house, not the twelfth
>which is hopeful. Certainly Mars is in its detriment and this describes
>Andrew's concern over the glasses.
>
>The main indicator of a return is Jupiter's angularity. "If you find the
>lord of the second in any angle, you may judge the thing lost missing or
>mislaid is within the house of him that demands the question" (CA p. 202)
>
>So, I think we may assume the lenses are at home. The fourth house suggests
>the oldest part of the house or where old people live or the middle of the
>house (p. 203 CA). Jupiter in Aquarius suggests the upper part of house
>since Aquarius is an air sign. Mars is also in air sign which backs this up
>but you could argue that they are close to the ground with Fortuna and Moon
>both in earth signs - also Jupiter in (relatively) late degrees means lower
>rather than higher.
>
>Lost object charts are so often teasers but strike me as one of the most
>practical applications of horary.
>To conclude, I think Andrew gets his lenses back and since the retrograde
>Jupiter suggests an unexpected return maybe we can't easily judge the
>location. Others, more skilled than myself may have better luck. I look
>forward to hearing how the story ends.
>
>All the best,
>Jonathon Clark



Thread: Where are my contact lenses?
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:54:17 +0100
Status: U

Dear Andrew,

I logged onto this interesting discussion today and picked up everyone's
analyses of your question. I read through them - very interesting, indeed,
to see a range of different approaches - but, have to say, that I have come
up with another, different, analysis.

Here it is:

The chart is radical because Jupiter, ruler of the hour, and Mars, ruler of
the chart, occupy the same triplicity.

Mars is your ruler but also rules the second (just!) which makes me think
that you and the lenses are close together and that their disappearance has
something to do with you and your action. I think, coonsequently, that it
might be important to consider the 4th house ruler for locating the lenses's
whereabouts because they may have been mislaid by you. Lilly in CA advises
that the ruler of the 4th house will describe the place where the missing
thing is. So, the 4th house is, I feel, important in seeking an answer to
your question.

Aquarius on the 4th is a westerly sign which, indoors, rules the eaves and
upper parts of the house and the roof. The Lord of the 4th is Saturn and
Saturn rules a dark place or dark part of the house, in this instance. So,
the lenses appear to be in a westerly direction from where you were at the
time of asking your question and in the upper part of the house in a room
with, I would think, a sloping roof (because of Aquarius on the 4th ruling
the roof).

Looking at Mars as the ruler of the second house and ruler of the lenses,
themselves, the planet is in Libra which rulers upper rooms in houses, such
as chambers, garrets and one chamber within another, if indoors. Libra is
also associated with the westerly direction.

Perhaps you had them on you, in a pocket or something, that Sunday when you
last recollect having them and you took off the clothes and put them away in
a wardrobe or cupboard in a bedroom with a sloping roof - the dark place -
which is west from where you were when you asked the question. Perhaps you
should search a room in this area of the house which has a chamber within a
chamber and you will find them.

Because Sagittarius is intercepted in the second, Jupiter is also considered
a co-ruler and is retrograde and this may be taken as an indication that the
lenses will return to you. Jupiter is also conjunct the 4th house which is
associated with mislaid objects. I note that Jupoter perfects a sextile to
Saturn (ruler of 4th) today or tomorrow by actual direction and perhaps this
is an indication that you will find them during this time?

I look forward to your answer.

Regards,


Pat.



Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Maggy Whitehouse/Jonathon Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:09:44 -0700

Delighted to hear your lenses are safe, Andrew. Seems like the ambivalence
of high and low locations is perfectly described by the floor of the attic.

You mention the sixth house being signified by Mars - I thought Aries on the
sixth of sickness appropriately described the part of your body (head) that
was suffering the loss.

Have just checked Lilly to find that Persia is ruled by Taurus and that
Saturn rules cats - pity, it would have been a nice end to find a better
connection. Never mind.
All the best,
Jonathon



Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:06:28 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-14 02:21:53 EDT, you write:

<< Tony - I have Jupiter in the fourth on this chart as noted previously. Are
you treating it as in the third because it is retrograde and within five
degrees of the cusp (IC)? >>

Jonathan,

Sorry, It's my error. I punched the wrong time into the compter and got a
Scorpio ASC but Jupiter in the 3rd. Yes Jupiter lies in the 4th (but as you
point out is within 5 degrees of the cusp). Also, Moon will trine Jupiter,
not Mars. I must have been very sleepy when I looked at the chart.
I still think there is a good chance he will find the lenses. With Jupiter
in the 4th, they are most likely in the home and in a place where he normally
keeps them. With Jupiter so near the cusp, they may have fallen down between
things.
I hope we hear news soon of the outcome.

Tony



Thread: Insurance Settlement
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:40:54 -0700

>Hi to all! I am facing a rather difficult negotiation with an opposing
>insurance company this coming week. Altho' we have settled on the property
>damage portion and successfully negotiated the tangibles, the business loss
>portion is far greater, but less tangible in terms of actual facts. The loss
>must be based on potential earnings for 3 months, with no prior activity to
>rely on as we had just started this business. I desperately need enough
>money to put me back in business. Will I receive my anticipated settlement
>and when? (Accident occurred 4/27/97, 11:45 pm EST, Vero Beach, Florida)
>This question haunts me and find myself unable to erect any readable charts
>on it! Too close to home, I guess. Thank you all in advance for any input.
> Debbie
>
>
>Dear Debbie,
The data you have given is for the accident itself and so I have erected a
chart specifically to answer the question that you have put regarding the
insurance claim.
The data is 9.25 am 14th. July 1997 52N30, 1W55. Ascendant 6Virgo47. Others
may care to add their interpretations based on this chart.

Radicality:

Although there is no agreement by ruler, nature or triplicity the Lord of
the Hour, Mars is sextile to the Ascendant ruler (albeit in signs of long
ascension) and in the most relevant house - the second of your money, which
is the subject of the question.

Although the Moon is in the via combusta I don't think this invalidates the
question in this case since you are clearly in considerable distress and the
Moon's position is therefore descriptive.

Description:

The dual rulership by Virgo of the first and second indicates a close
connection with your money. The Moon applies to a square with Mercury but
this can be treated as a trine in signs of long ascension and so indicates
you will get the money due.

Fortuna is strong, scoring +13, and is in the fourth which rules the end of
the matter.
The second house cusp is strengthened by the presence of the North Node
although it's a bit of a stretch, being nearly five degrees away.

The ruler of the eighth is Jupiter which is just past its sextile with
Saturn,ruler of the fifth of agents. I don't know the full details of the
case but this suggests to me that the money belonging to the insurance
company may be on its way to you via an agent or broker.

Jupiter helpfully casts its antiscion to 9 Scorpio 51, just 1 degree 34 away
from the Moon which is your co-significator.

I would take Mars as the part ruler of the eighth which represents the
financial resources of the insurance company. Placed in the second it shows
their money finishes up in your hands.

A further argument for recovery might be that Mercury, you, is in sextile to
Mars, part ruler of the eighth. However, I would disregard this as the
aspect is in signs of long ascension (which operate in this neck of the
woods), turning the sextile to a square.

However, Mars is peregrine and in its detriment which suggests that the
settlement may be damaged in some way i.e. you get less than you expected.
Mars in the second also suggests that the money goes out as fast as it comes
in which supports what you are saying i.e. you need the money to rebuild the
business so it's not going to sit in the bank once you get it.

Also on the negative side is the fact that Mercury is in the twelfth as is
Venus, part ruler of the second, neither of which suggest much financial
success. Venus, however, does cast its antiscion to the cusp of the eleventh
of hopes and wishes which suggests a fortunate outcome.

Judgement:

In summary, a mixed bag but, on balance, I think you get the money,
although it may be less than the full amount for which you hoped.

Hope this helps,
All the best,
Jonathon



Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:40:49 -0700 (PDT)

>From correspondence with John Reder who put up the chart it looks as though
his programme wasn't taking account of daylight saving.

The 6 degree Scorpio Ascendant is correct, Tony Louis also has this as is
evident from his posting yesterday.

All the best,
Jonathon

>>>Jupiter is cadent,
>>
>>Have we got some difference on the software or have I just got this wrong?
>>I have a ascendant of 6 degrees 8 minutes of Scorpio and an IC of 20 degrees
>>15 minutes. With Jupiter at 20 degrees 30 minutes this makes it angular.
>
>I get Jupiter as angular also.
>*******************************************************************
>Christopher A. LaFond (lafond@bc.edu)
>National Council for Geocosmic Research, Cape Cod Chapter
>http://www2.bc.edu/~lafond/ncgr/ncgrhome.html
>
>



Thread: Revolution of the World?
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:39:58 -0400 (EDT)

Hi Charmaine -
Yes, the chart of the spring equinox makes sense; however, "There is no
taking of a City (Authors say) when the City Sign ascends at the Revolution
of the year of the World." (Partridge, election aphorism #69) We need a
specific location for this to make sense to me (of course living in the
Boston area it's clear to me...). Thanks so much for the Schoener citation -
I'll go back to it.
It's still quite possible I'm unbelievably dense on this.
Joseph


Thread: Revolution of the World?
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:28:07 -0400 (EDT)

Hi anybody -
I'm been going through Partridge's electional aphorisms, and I've run into
the noting of the "Revolution of the Year of the World" regarding founding
cities, taking cities. Although I doubt I'd do an election for either event,
I'm annoyed that I don't have an idea what a "Revolution of the Year of the
World" is. Also, is there a decent source on this? Thanks.
Joseph Crane


Thread: Gary Devore WHOA NELLIE!!!!
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:55:01 -0400 (EDT)


At 03:00 PM 7/11/97 -0700, Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> wrote:

2:16 PM 7/11/97 -0400, john reder wrote:

> First off you have the time wrong on the chart, it was 12:28 AM, not
>12:38, so the Ascendent is early at 2 Aries, which gives the chart a
>different tilt than if you had a valid ascendent. By this time, he already
>has a plan that is about to be put into motion.
Oh Really? how so? arent you splitting hairs now john? There is only one
difference and certainly if you have read any Lilly at all, you might see
that the man is no longer of this world. I am sorry to disagree with you
but 2 degrees does not change the chart's deadly portent one iota. He looks
just as dead.

>has a plan that is about to be put into motion.
What plan? Where do you see this, astrologically? The only difference the
asc is no longer exactly on a recent lunar eclipse. Mars (gary) is still on
the degree of the recent lunar eclipse. Mars is still in reception with
saturn of the grave, mars is still almuten of the grave 4th house and sign
ruler of the 8th house. Mars is still weakened by being in detriment and in
the house of open enemies. The moon, his co ruler is the ruler of the 4th
house, the grave, is in the 1st house and is about to conjoin saturn natural
ruler of the grave.

> Another part of the story is that he is constantly armed with a 38
>revolver.
All the more reason that he is dead.

> While they never came out and said so, there was the implication
>that with a multi-million dollar tax bill hanging over his head, he might do
>himself in.
> I think that may be sort of an OJ Simpson possible suicide. I think
>this guy may want people to think that, but he sounds like the type that
>will try to weasel out of trouble by any means before that happened.

Look at the chart, the chart, not your imagination. Where do you see this
astrologically john?

> Remember also that his ruler Mars is trine to Uranus retrograde.
This trine amounts to nothing. Mars is prohibited from perfecting the trine
to Uranus. No he didnt get together with his friends, or get his ingenious
wish, because it appears to me that he met his maker first. Mars is
frustrated in completing the trine to Uranus 7 AQU in the 11th of friends
and wishes because Mars (4Libra) will square, the light and giver of life,
the Sun sun at 6 degrees Cancer first, AND the Sun is in the 4th house of
endings. So forget any wishes coming true for this guy.

>Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson talks about Uranus and people taking "french leave".
What makes him a Uranus person? He doesnt even make the aspect to
Uranus.Even if we used Ivy's method's Uranus would in no way be his ruler!
He is ruled by mars, the ruler of the aries ascendent, and co ruled by the
moon, and planets in the 1st house.

>From where he was all he had to do was take a left turn and in a couple of
>hours he would be in Mexico.
Look at the chart. Where in the chart does it say this?

> If he had been planning this for a while, he
>probably has money stashed there out of sight of the IRS (Venus leaving home
>ground Cancer).

Sorry John. Nice try.

> As for Mars conjunct the 7th, I think that may be his attempt to
>laugh a pre-emptive strike against Natalie Cole and diverting attention to
>her and away from himself.
And this is shown astrologically where?
> He wants to keep the cops looking at her as a
>murderer instead of him as a tax fugitive. (Basically the cops don't seem
>to be biting at that one.)

Your dreaming again.
> Again, to the point of my additional posting, if you had seen the
>wedding picture of him and Mrs. Coleus, you would have a very different
>opinion of this guy.

What does me seeing a picture of devore and mrs cole have to do with the
chart? The chart says the guy is dead, and if you were familliar with
Christian Astrology at all you would see it, too. John I dont have any
opinion of this guy other than what you have told me, he sounds like a first
magnitude sleeze to me.

> You have this tall young guy next to this skinny
>shriveled up old lady and that tells an awful lot about how this guy was
>before he started to make it. You would know that this guy will do anything
>he has to do to have money.

What does that have to do with the chart?

> This was a planned operation and don't let his present wife's
>protest to the contrary fool you.

The chart john, the chart. Maybe before you shoot your little typing fingers
off, you should consider investing in a copy of Christian Astrology and then
actually read it.

>it comes to the IRS taking your home and cars, etc., she is just as tax
>screwed as he is.
The chart John, remember the chart. Gary's significator, his association
with saturn natural ruler of the grave by aspect and reception of
exaltation, the Moon is ruler of the 4th, and in the 1st. Mars the ruler of
the 1st and the 8th is detrimented and on the eclipse point. I know you have
mentioned Ivy here but perchance have do you have a copy of Christian
Astrology?

> If I were here I would want him home to take the heat off
>me with the IRS. Which could also be the Mars conjunct 7th, putting the
>heat on her with the tax man. (Mars ruling Scorpio 8th)
> We will probably see him again on the new season of "America's Most
>Wanted" and I'll bet he is spotted south of the border by >then.
While I admire your imagination, I cannot help but think that Mr. Devore has
met his maker. Thank you again for giving me the correct chart, the
background info, and your unique take on the mr devore's location and status.

Good luck with your studies.

Dorothy



I think the main difference in our interpretations comes from the
source of our techniques for interpretation of horary charts.
I probably should have never gotten into a "William Lilly" group in
that he is one of the last authors I would use in horary. I came away from
his writings feeling that he does not attempt to educate the readers as much
as attempt to impress the
them with his knowledge. I go more with Marc Edmond Jones for philosophy of
interpretation and Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson for technical aspects of
interpretation.
First, with Jones, he takes a 180 degree difference with Lilly in
philosophy. Where Lilly emphasizes the inclusion of minute detail in
interpretation, Jones stresses the application of the principles of "Occam's
Razor". Jones believes in the shaving off of all minute detail in the
horary chart. He stresses major planets and prominent fixed stars, major
angles, major aspects and reliance on the established judgement strictures,
(i.e. Saturn in the 7th, early and late ascendents, etc.). For "HORARY" the
idea is to "read it classic, read it fast, read it simple!"
One of the things he brings to light, is that any horary chart that
an astrologer can read, the astrologer will eventually know the answer to.
If he will not know the final outcome, the chart will be unreadable. There
is a symbiosis or synchronicity at work and the astrologer with a readable
chart, will become an observing participant in the event. This means, that
if we would not have had further info about what was to happen, if this
story would have just died out without our having any knowledge of the
outcome, we would have been presented with an unreadable chart.
So the fact we had a readable chart, meant that we would have something like
the story on EXTRA, to see how the event evolved. Therefore in a valid
horary chart, we become "part" of the unfolding of the chart and are
presented with events to witness.
That being said, if we go back to the points I made on the first
chart. As you remember, I said was not happy with the 1PM time originally
given. Besides the Saturn in the 7th, I just didn't feel comfortable with
the time. You heard her say 1 and you assumed 1 PM when it was 1 Am she
meant. (Here is a perfect example of the valid chart meaning that the
astrologer would not be left in the dark. Events unfolded to the point
where we got the correct time.)
So in my first interpretation, I took Occam's Razor and shaved off
all the phenomena that were dependent on strict time consideration and went
with the most fundamentally secure aspects.
So my first thoughts were, there was some "bullshit" going down, the
guy was playing games and the matter would snowball out of control with "no
happy homecoming here". Finding out this guy had the IRS hot after him for
$2 million and he was having attention shifted off him and onto Natalie
Cole, in case he disappeared, to me, qualifies as "bullshit" going down and
playing games. Plus, if he comes "home", the IRS will already have taken
the home.
On the next chart, in keeping with the idea of the astrologer as
participant, I saw the EXTRA piece. For me to ignore what I have seen, when
viewing the chart, is like a doctor seeing a tumor on a patient and ignoring
it because the lab test doesn't point it out.
So, I had to see the probability of him running from the IRS as much
more likely than getting car jacked in the desert. I also have to see his
saying "If I disappear, Natalie Cole killed me!" as a lot more likely to be
a red herring to divert attention while he skipped, than an indication that
he is dead. (I also see it more likely that he has a gun to shoot someone
trying to stop him than shooting himself.
This guy came off in the story as someone who would put his well-being first.)
Now as to the change in the ascendent. 2 degrees makes a lot of
difference when it puts the ascendent early at 2 Aries. The premature
judgement consideration indicates a condition where an event is about to
begin. The phone call to his wife is the event that precedes his "taking
french leave". "He dials the number, she picks up the phone and......now it
begins."
As for death in the chart, his ruler Mars is detrimented and
conjunct the other guy 7th, "I wouldn't want to be the one who gets in his
way." Mars is the planet of ASSAULT & ATTACKING, NOT BEING THE
"VICTIM"...he is more likely to shoot than be shot.
So, following Jones and Goldtein-Jacobson, I shaved off what was
extraneous, looked on the event, saw it as a observing participant and that
was where I took it from. Considering what we have since learned about the
story and how the story is unfolding, I don't feel I was off the track with
respect to my first ascertain of "bullshit, playing games and no happy
homecoming". So I will stick with my pair of author as opposed to Lilly's
"technique".

John Reder

P.S. If Carol is reading this....I was supposed to be unsubscribed from the
group and it is still coming through.

_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 05:21:24 -0700

>Re: Tony Louis's response on this question.

Tony - I have Jupiter in the fourth on this chart as noted previously. Are
you treating it as in the third because it is retrograde and within five
degrees of the cusp (IC)?
I'd be grateful if you could clarify as this seems an important point of
principle.
I agree that it is a logical extension of the "five degree" rule but I can't
recall that there is any evidence for using it in Lilly.

As we are seeing, it makes all the difference in the world to the answer so
thanks to Andrew for losing his lenses - it may help the development of
astrology considerably!

By the way, I think there is a slip of the keys in your response. Mars, not
the Moon, trines Jupiter in nine degrees.

Look forward to hearing further.

All the best,
Jonathon




In a message dated 97-07-10 17:47:46 EDT, you write:
>
><< Where are my contact lenses?
> Question asked at 3:41 pm BST on the 10th July 1997 in Cabinteely, (53N15
> 06W09 30).
>
> Thanks
> Andrew Smith
> >>
>Andrew,
>
>I took a quick look at your chart. 7 Scorio rises so you are shown by Mars
>and co-ruled by the Moon. The 2nd house is a Sag house so Jupiter rules the
>contact lenses. Jupiter lies in the 3rd in Aquarius and is retrograde.
>A retrograde significator often signifies the return of the lost item.
> Jupiter in the 3rd suggests that you may have lost them during local travel
>or during a visit. They could be in a vehicle. In a cadent house they will
>be hard to find and may be found by another person. Aquarius often signifies
>locations where a liquid meets a solid. If in the car, you might look near
>the gear shift. It can also mean a place near a modern gadget (stereo,
>jacuzzi, etc).
>I think you will eventually recover them. Moon will trine Jupiter in 9
>degrees and the aspect is mutually applying. If we use a degree for a day,
>you or someone else may find them before July 19.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Tony
>
>
>



Thread: Insurance Settlement
From: DKPaiger@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:57:57 -0400 (EDT)

Hi to all! I am facing a rather difficult negotiation with an opposing
insurance company this coming week. Altho' we have settled on the property
damage portion and successfully negotiated the tangibles, the business loss
portion is far greater, but less tangible in terms of actual facts. The loss
must be based on potential earnings for 3 months, with no prior activity to
rely on as we had just started this business. I desperately need enough
money to put me back in business. Will I receive my anticipated settlement
and when? (Accident occurred 4/27/97, 11:45 pm EST, Vero Beach, Florida)
This question haunts me and find myself unable to erect any readable charts
on it! Too close to home, I guess. Thank you all in advance for any input.
Debbie


Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:03:27 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-10 17:47:46 EDT, you write:

<< Where are my contact lenses?
Question asked at 3:41 pm BST on the 10th July 1997 in Cabinteely, (53N15
06W09 30).

Thanks
Andrew Smith
>>
Andrew,

I took a quick look at your chart. 7 Scorio rises so you are shown by Mars
and co-ruled by the Moon. The 2nd house is a Sag house so Jupiter rules the
contact lenses. Jupiter lies in the 3rd in Aquarius and is retrograde.
A retrograde significator often signifies the return of the lost item.
Jupiter in the 3rd suggests that you may have lost them during local travel
or during a visit. They could be in a vehicle. In a cadent house they will
be hard to find and may be found by another person. Aquarius often signifies
locations where a liquid meets a solid. If in the car, you might look near
the gear shift. It can also mean a place near a modern gadget (stereo,
jacuzzi, etc).
I think you will eventually recover them. Moon will trine Jupiter in 9
degrees and the aspect is mutually applying. If we use a degree for a day,
you or someone else may find them before July 19.

Good luck,

Tony


Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:42:37 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-11 05:59:32 EDT, you write:

<< Does anyone have any suggestions as to the ruler of contact
>lenses? Are they located in the 6th house? >>

In horary, one typically uses the 2nd house and its ruler for possessions.
In this case the missing lenses are your possession and should be shown by
the 2nd house and its ruler(s).

Hope this helps.

Tony


Thread: Gary Devore WHOA NELLIE!!!!
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:02:50 -0700

>john wrote
> I think old DK had a psychic episode here.
or was it Gary's ghost?
>car phone 12:28 AM June 28. ( From
>Extra). That puts the Moon conjunct Saturn in the first house. His ruler
>Mars in Libra is conjunct the 7th (he is his own enemy). There is some
>bs going down and he is off and running.

Thank you so much for getting the correct time for Gary Devore's
disappearence. This is my favorite thing about this list, putting our
collective heads together. I tried to keep up with the story, and was so
disappointed to find out anything else. Great Sleuthing you guys!

Sadly, I have my doubts that Gary is running anywhere. Here Gary would be
represented by the Asc, planets in the 1st house and the ruler of the 1st.
The Ascendent is 4 Aries, and happens to be on the degree of the 9/27/96
lunar eclipse, Mars rules the 1st, also rules the 8th house of death, and is
the almuten of the 4th. Mars is peregrine, in its detriment, and is, itself
on the degree of the last lunar eclipse, and on the cusp of the seventh
house of open enemies. Further Mars is in a mixed reception by sign and
exaltation with Saturn. Ad to this ghoolish scenario, his co-ruler the Moon
is applying to natural ruler of death, Saturn - and in the 1st house. He
looks dead to me. Any guesses as to where he is or who might have killed him?
gary devore last spoken to

     28 Jun 1997
     12.38 A.M. (7)
     118.15 WEST
     34.03 NORTH
     18H  10M  46S
     Regiomontanus
                 23 CPR             02 CPR             12 SAG
                     *                *                *
               NE29Cpr                *                PL03Sag
               UR07Aqu  *             *             *
     21 AQU    JU21Aqu                *                            15 SCO
          *                *  PF14Cpr *          *                *
              *                       *                       *
                  *           *       *       *           *
                      *               *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                              *               *
        SN23Pis              *                 *
     04 ARI ******************                 ******************* 04 LIB
        MO16Ari              *                 *
        SA19Ari               *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                      *               *               *      MA04Lib
                  *           *       *       *           *  NN23Vir
              *                       *                       *
          *                *          *          *                *
     15 TAU                           *                            21 LEO
                        *             *             *
                                      * ME09Can        VE29Can
                     *                * SU06Can        *
                 12 GEM             02 CAN             23 CAN

Thread: Server problems
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:02:54 -0700

Dear fellow listers,

I too have gotten back the message that my email has not gone through, with
the following message
[002] Mail was received for unknown addresses.
Message was not delivered to
RRM2NET/RRM2POST/DAMRON (RRM2NET/RRM2POST/DAMRON)

But I also found that another copy of my email came back to me that did go
through. This list is not automated as some of the other lists are. This
list comes to you by the hard work of our listmistress Carol Wiggers. She
deserves a medal for this. I know that recently Carol had been having
trouble with her own computer, and probably has been so busy posting our
emails, and at the same time trying to get herself back online, and she
probably hasn't had time to read about the strange failure post that
erroneously (at least in my case) tells us that our post did not coming back.

Thank you for your continued patience.
Dorothy J. Kovach



Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Maggy Whitehouse/Jonathon Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:57:21 -0700

Please see below for my comments which I've attached to John Reder's response.
Jonathon>


At 04:54 PM 7/10/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Hi there
>>
>>I am an astrologer who lives and works in Dublin Ireland. Although I have a
>>good working knowledge of most areas of astrology, traditional and horary is
>>still relatively new to me, though it is an area I am determined to get to
>>grips with. Traditional astrology is not popular in Ireland, probably too
>>much of the Neptune influence here (or jupiter for those of you prefering
>>the old ruler of Pisces). Consequently little literature reaches our book
>>shop's shelves on it, although they are full of New Age "pop" astrology.
>>Perhaps this will change in the coming years. ..........
>>
>>I was wondering if any one could help me with this horary?I recently lost my
>>contact lenses and have serache everywhere for them. The last time I had
>>them was on Sunday evening, but I only need them for driving at night and
>>playing soccer. So i only realised on Tuesday on my way to football (7:36 pm
>>BST 8th july 1997)that I was missing them, but only got round to asking the
>>question today. Does anyone have any suggestions as to the ruler of contact
>>lenses? Are they located in the 6th house? The Sun, I believe, is the ruler
>>of eye problems, but is it associated with lenses?
>>
>>Where are my contact lenses?
>>Question asked at 3:41 pm BST on the 10th July 1997 in Cabinteely, (53N15
>>06W09 30).
>>
>>Thanks
>>Andrew Smith
>>
>>
>>
>>
> You would use the ruler of the movable possessions 2nd, which in
>this case would be Jupiter.

Agreed


Jupiter is cadent,

Have we got some difference on the software or have I just got this wrong?
I have a ascendant of 6 degrees 8 minutes of Scorpio and an IC of 20 degrees
15 minutes. With Jupiter at 20 degrees 30 minutes this makes it angular. It
is this angularity which makes the chart radical since Jupiter is the Lord
of the Hour and does not otherwise agree with the Scorpio Ascedant.

fixed and retrograde

A retrograde planet means no such thing, I suggest, but the opposite, that
the goods may be returned suddenly and without trouble (p. 467 Christian
Astrology, for example)

...which
>is a strong indication that it's gone for good.

Is it?

Jupiter, according to the chart I have, is only the part ruler of the
second, the cusp falling at 29 degrees 45 minutes Scorpio. This certainly
makes Jupiter a major significator for the lenses but not the only one. Mars
rules the first and the second which suggests a connection between the owner
and his lenses. This is re-inforced by Jupiter's antiscion falling at 9
degrees 30 minutes of Scorpio, close to the Ascendant.

The void of course Moon doesn't help but it, together with the North Node,
is helpfully placed on the cusp of the eleventh of hopes and wishes.

Mars, according to my chart is also in the eleventh house, not the twelfth
which is hopeful. Certainly Mars is in its detriment and this describes
Andrew's concern over the glasses.

The main indicator of a return is Jupiter's angularity. "If you find the
lord of the second in any angle, you may judge the thing lost missing or
mislaid is within the house of him that demands the question" (CA p. 202)

So, I think we may assume the lenses are at home. The fourth house suggests
the oldest part of the house or where old people live or the middle of the
house (p. 203 CA). Jupiter in Aquarius suggests the upper part of house
since Aquarius is an air sign. Mars is also in air sign which backs this up
but you could argue that they are close to the ground with Fortuna and Moon
both in earth signs - also Jupiter in (relatively) late degrees means lower
rather than higher.

Lost object charts are so often teasers but strike me as one of the most
practical applications of horary.



> The Ascendent is in the Via Combusta,

Agreed, but I struggle to understand the significance of this. It is only
the Moon in the via combusta which is included in the considerations before
judgement, not the ascendant


and your ruler Mars is
>detrimented in Libra,

agreed, see above.


in semi-sextile to the Asc. Which indicates you
>really aren't too happy about the situation in regards to paying for the
>loss.

I don't understand how you arrive at this and would like to hear the reasoning.



Which I assume means these are not disposbale contacts. Also, with
>Mercury that rules eyeglasses in sextile to Mars, it would seem to mean you
>have to fall back on them.
> But, as to the basis of the question, looking will most likely do no
>good.


To conclude, I think Andrew gets his lenses back and since the retrograde
Jupiter suggests an unexpected return maybe we can't easily judge the
location. Others, more skilled than myself may have better luck. I look
forward to hearing how the story ends.

All the best,
Jonathon Clark




> _\|/_
> (o o)
>-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
>John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)
>
>
>
>



Thread: Hong Kong Changeover
From: david ryan <kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:24:38 +0100

In message <2.2.16.19970709182536.2e276a68@tiac.net>, John Reder
<jreder@tiac.net> writes
>At 03:44 AM 7/9/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Hi John,
>>Hong Kong Changeover was 5.00 PM BST = 16.00 GMT, 30 Jun 97
>>hope that helps . (source:- UK BBC Radio 4.)
>>
> So that would mean that HK did not use DST this year, probably
>because it would have caused confusion on the changeover. (the
>International Atlas indicates they normally do use DST, or at least did use
>it. Perhaps it isi time to do a major revision as I can't find any
>indication that they have done that since 1980).
> Does anyone know of any software package that covers time changes?
>I have tried quite a number of web searches for sites matching the subject
>and none of the sites are worth a damn.
> _\|/_
> (o o)
>-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
>John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)
>
>

Try http://www.astro.ch.

It is astonishingly accurate, built with swiss germanic precision!


David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html


Thread: Where are my contact lenses
From: Andrew Smith <dastroc@iol.ie> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:07:00 +0100
Status: U

Thanks to all of you who have helped me with this question.
Firstly jon, at what time did you receive my question. I would like to take
a look at your chart. It was an interesting answer as I usually place my
lense case on my bookshelf.
Secondly to John Reder, I would your conclusion. I have serached thoroughly
all places where I last had them with no joy. The funny thing is that they
just seem to have vanished. I had them at the cinema. I had them when I got
home, and that was the last I saw of them! As to your conclusion about my
state of mind, I am really unhappy at the prospect of forking at for a new
pair. And you are right that they are not disposable ones either.
I will let you know if the situation changes at all
Thanks again
Andrew

At 22:54 10/07/97 BST, jon wrote:
>Hi, I didn't use your chart but put up my own when I got your posting. I
don't know the ruler of contact lenses but used the second for possessions.
Suggest they're near books or pictures or in a room or place to do with
games. But from the significators I think you've already said goodbye to
them. Also the moon was void. Hope you find them and prove me wrong.

and At 18:30 10/07/97 -0400,John Reder wrote:
>>Where are my contact lenses?
>>Question asked at 3:41 pm BST on the 10th July 1997 in Cabinteely, (53N15
>>06W09 30).
> You would use the ruler of the movable possessions 2nd, which in
>this case would be Jupiter. Jupiter is cadent, fixed and retrograde...which
>is a strong indication that it's gone for good.
> The Ascendent is in the Via Combusta, and your ruler Mars is
>detrimented in Libra, in semi-sextile to the Asc. Which indicates you
>really aren't too happy about the situation in regards to paying for the
>loss. Which I assume means these are not disposbale contacts. Also, with
>Mercury that rules eyeglasses in sextile to Mars, it would seem to mean you
>have to fall back on them.
> But, as to the basis of the question, looking will most likely do no
>good.



Thread: The Zodiac & the Globe Theatre
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:09:11 +0000

At 09:21 PM 7/10/97 +0000, John Reder wrote:
>At 11:45 PM 7/10/97 +0900, you wrote:
>>Don't know if anyone else knows about this but the newly built Globe Theatre
>>in London has a zodiac painted on its ceiling. There is a photograph of the
>>theatre (on page 95 in the 26th June edition of L'Express) in which the
>>centaur of Sagittarius to the Ram of Aries are clearly visible, along with
>>the Sun and the Moon in two of the corners.
>>
>>Does anyone know why? Did the original have have one? Were Sam Wannamaker
>>(the actor who organized the building of the theatre) and/or the architect
>>interested in astrology?
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I think it is supposed to represent not the zodiac per se, but the
>idea that in Shakespear's day the theaters were open to the sky. It is just
>symbolic of the night sky.
> _\|/_
> (o o)
>-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
>John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)


Perhaps, but there was also quite an amount of popular and literary
familiarity with astrology during Shakespeare's time.

Julienne



Thread: WHOA NELLIE!!!!
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:31:39 -0400 (EDT)

I sent in this reply to DKPaiger under the header "Re: Mail list" a little
while ago

At 06:00 AM 7/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey John--Yes, I have same problem with mail (as you may recall!). But more
>importantly, how 'bout a soundbite on the Gary Devore situation?? Just so we
>can
>put all these cyber horaries to bed :)
>
>
>
> Can't help on the Gary DeVore thingee, it wasn't mine. That was
Dorothy >and Alexander Kovach's posting. (I am sure he came home as soon as
he heard >his wife was offering $10,000 of his money to find him.)


SPOKE TOO SOON!!!!!!

I think old DK had a psychic episode here. No sooner had I sent in
the reply then I turned on the TV just as that "Extra" show was starting. I
was about ready to click passed it when they up cam a picture of Marsha
Mason and Gary Devore.
Short story on it. Gary Devore, besides being a screen writer, is
the ex-husband of Nat King Cole's widow. In 94 the feds hit him with a tax
bill of $2 Million. He then sued Natalie Cole to try to get her to pay it.
When she wouldn't pay his tax bill, he then started telling everyone "If I
disappear Natalie Cole did it!". (A little bit of plott writing here?)
So he has the IRS after him for $2 Million in 1994, which is probably
up to a lot more than that by now. (Wonder why he went missing?)
As it turns out, the original time quoted for the phone call was
wrong. (which explains the Saturn in the 7th in the first chart) According
to phone records he called from his car phone 12:28 AM June 28. ( From
Extra). That puts the Moon conjunct Saturn in the first house. His ruler
Mars in Libra is conjunct the 7th (he is his own enemy). There is some
bullshit going down and he is off and running.

_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:30:19 -0400 (EDT)

At 04:54 PM 7/10/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi there
>
>I am an astrologer who lives and works in Dublin Ireland. Although I have a
>good working knowledge of most areas of astrology, traditional and horary is
>still relatively new to me, though it is an area I am determined to get to
>grips with. Traditional astrology is not popular in Ireland, probably too
>much of the Neptune influence here (or jupiter for those of you prefering
>the old ruler of Pisces). Consequently little literature reaches our book
>shop's shelves on it, although they are full of New Age "pop" astrology.
>Perhaps this will change in the coming years. ..........
>
>I was wondering if any one could help me with this horary?I recently lost my
>contact lenses and have serache everywhere for them. The last time I had
>them was on Sunday evening, but I only need them for driving at night and
>playing soccer. So i only realised on Tuesday on my way to football (7:36 pm
>BST 8th july 1997)that I was missing them, but only got round to asking the
>question today. Does anyone have any suggestions as to the ruler of contact
>lenses? Are they located in the 6th house? The Sun, I believe, is the ruler
>of eye problems, but is it associated with lenses?
>
>Where are my contact lenses?
>Question asked at 3:41 pm BST on the 10th July 1997 in Cabinteely, (53N15
>06W09 30).
>
>Thanks
>Andrew Smith
>
>
>
>
You would use the ruler of the movable possessions 2nd, which in
this case would be Jupiter. Jupiter is cadent, fixed and retrograde...which
is a strong indication that it's gone for good.
The Ascendent is in the Via Combusta, and your ruler Mars is
detrimented in Libra, in semi-sextile to the Asc. Which indicates you
really aren't too happy about the situation in regards to paying for the
loss. Which I assume means these are not disposbale contacts. Also, with
Mercury that rules eyeglasses in sextile to Mars, it would seem to mean you
have to fall back on them.
But, as to the basis of the question, looking will most likely do no
good.
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Does this electional chart bite?
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:30:26 -0400 (EDT)

At 02:23 PM 7/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I have a chart made for me a while ago for my business. Now that i have
>been reading your group, I am afraid that this chart is a disaster and
>my business is evidence of the possibility. The data follows: July
>20,1994. at 10:30am in Palm Springs, Ca. 33N49 116W32. Moon is in
>Capricorn. I just found out that is a no-no. He did put the North Node
>in the second house with Jupiter, but they are in Scorpio. Venus is in
>the twelfth in Virgo. The POF is in the sixth. My business has been
>art and I did fairly well for the first two years, though I needed some
>financial assistance. I was doing quite well as a counseling astrologer,
>also. I was not getting rich, but I got by and was pleased with the
>responses to my ads and such. Calls were coming in regularly for art
>sales and the galleries were getting interested. At the first of this
>year something happened. the bottom fell out. I have not made one penny
>since January. Of course I did have Pluto go station at 5 degrees
>opposing my Natal sun in the twelfth house at 5 degrees Gemini. Am I
>barking up the wrong tree? Thanks for any comments.
>
>
>

First off on the " He did put the North Node in the second house
with Jupiter, but they are in Scorpio." Who is he? Did someone tell you
when to start your business and just what DIDN'T you see was wrong with this
chart?
The Moon is not in Capricorn, but Void of Course at 29 Sag. That is
the big, "this is going nowhere" indication. There is nothing wrong with
Jupiter in the 2nd in Scorpio. In fact it probably kept you afloat longer
than would be possible without it.
The real problem is Venus (of art) in the 12th square Mars. (also ruling
the money/debt 2nd & 8th). Plus throw in retrograde Saturn in the 6th to
form a perfectly murderous exact T-Square.
As it sounds right now, I don't understand how "HE" could say this
was anything but a disaster in the making astrologically.
I would say shame on "HE" for giving you bad advice, but if you say
you do astrological counseling and you didn't know this BASIC! BASIC!
BASIC!, stuff. SHAME ON YOU!

_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Mail to the list
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:21:18 -0400 (EDT)

At 06:00 AM 7/9/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey John--Yes, I have same problem with mail (as you may recall!). But more
>importantly, how 'bout a soundbite on the Gary Devore situation?? Just so we
>can
>put all these cyber horaries to bed :)
>
>
>
Can't help on the Gary DeVore thingee, it wasn't mine. That was
Dorothy and Alexander Kovach's posting. (I am sure he came home as soon as
he heard his wife was offering $10,000 of his money to find him.)
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: The Zodiac & the Globe Theatre
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:21:25 -0400 (EDT)

At 11:45 PM 7/10/97 +0900, you wrote:
>Don't know if anyone else knows about this but the newly built Globe Theatre
>in London has a zodiac painted on its ceiling. There is a photograph of the
>theatre (on page 95 in the 26th June edition of L'Express) in which the
>centaur of Sagittarius to the Ram of Aries are clearly visible, along with
>the Sun and the Moon in two of the corners.
>
>Does anyone know why? Did the original have have one? Were Sam Wannamaker
>(the actor who organized the building of the theatre) and/or the architect
>interested in astrology?
>
>
>
>
I think it is supposed to represent not the zodiac per se, but the
idea that in Shakespear's day the theaters were open to the sky. It is just
symbolic of the night sky.
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Fwd: Time of the Mars landing 10:07:25 a.m. PDT Pasadena CA July 4, 97
From: Rainbomoon@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:17:45 -0400 (EDT)

Also erecting the landing chart from Cape Canaveral puts Mars and the
Fortuna right on the Asc. Have waited several days to repost..so trying
again....Laura
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Fwd: Time of the Mars landing 10:07:25 a.m. PDT Pasadena CA July 4,
97
Date: 97-07-07 21:07:29 EDT
From: Rainbomoon
To: Rainbomoon


---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: Time of the Mars landing 10:07:25 a.m. PDT Pasadena CA July 4,
97
Date: 97-07-07 09:07:45 EDT
From: Rainbomoon
To: william _lilly@halcyon.com

Pathfinder launch date Dec 4 1996 1:58 am EST Cape Canaveral, Fla. 28N24
20 80W36. Looking at this chart using whole signs we have Libra in the
first and Asc at 6+ libra...North Node at 5+ libra. The domicile
ruler/administrator of the 1st place/house of the launching is Saturn. Venus
is the co-worker..Saturn is angular/pivotal, in the 7th place, and in its
fall in Aries and perguine--->nasty powerful Saturn.Saturn is in Aries 00+,
with the S. Node . Saturn is opposing the place it administers/rules which
represents the Pathfinder. Mercury at 29+ Sagg in the 3rd is an applying
square to Saturn, consider Merc to be well expressed..in sect, and is it
helically rising/enhanced??? It is seperating away from the sun..just out
from under the beams? Merc is detriment and periguine...so ill effect again.
Venus is in Scorpio not in a prospering place..2nd sign...has difficulty with
expression in aversion to Libra..and in detriment ..Venus is impeded.The
Midheaven of the chart is 6+ cancer..with Cancer on the 10th sign..Moon rules
the Midheaven and it is in the 12th place at 24+ Virgo, seperating
conjunction with Mars at 18+ Virgo. Moon is applying square to the lot/part
of fortune at 24+sagg ..and Merc. Moon is in its own triplicity and has
expression being in sect..Mars is the domicile ruler/administrator of the 7th
and in the 12th. Mars is perguine. On the day of the landing Mars (almuten of
the 7th..and 2nd) has just seperated from a bodily conj with the
ASC(launching Asc)and looking at Charmaines data Mars and Fortuna are on the
landings ASC as well...Merc..Sun/Moon are in Cancer..in the launch's chart
10th place/and landing's. applying.new/moon , in both charts Saturn is the
administrator of the 1st sign...any insights? Laura..Looking at the Parans to
the launch chart very interesting as well...parans to Saturn star
rise=Fomalhaut, Asc star set Fomalhaut. Parans to Asc star
set=Denebola...Fomalhaut= fame/immortal name/accidents with Saturn..disgrace.
Denebola ..nature of Saturn and Venus brings disgrace/misfortune. Parans to
the Fortuna Deneb Adige star rise....nature of Venus/Merc ingenious
nature...a brillant white star in the tail of the Swan. Laura


Thread: No Subject
From: Rainbomoon@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:12:17 -0400 (EDT)

still waiting for it to be delivered..post has not been sent back..Laura


Thread: SUBJECT
From: JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:04:01 -0400

John Reder says:

Anyone else having a problem with sending mail in to the list?
Everytime I send something in, it does get delivered...BUT...I also get a
copy back from the mail daemon saying it was undeliverable.

Mee Too.

-JoAnne



Thread: Introduction/ Where are my contact lenses
From: Andrew Smith <dastroc@iol.ie> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:54:55 +0100

Hi there

I am an astrologer who lives and works in Dublin Ireland. Although I have a
good working knowledge of most areas of astrology, traditional and horary is
still relatively new to me, though it is an area I am determined to get to
grips with. Traditional astrology is not popular in Ireland, probably too
much of the Neptune influence here (or jupiter for those of you prefering
the old ruler of Pisces). Consequently little literature reaches our book
shop's shelves on it, although they are full of New Age "pop" astrology.
Perhaps this will change in the coming years. ..........

I was wondering if any one could help me with this horary?I recently lost my
contact lenses and have serache everywhere for them. The last time I had
them was on Sunday evening, but I only need them for driving at night and
playing soccer. So i only realised on Tuesday on my way to football (7:36 pm
BST 8th july 1997)that I was missing them, but only got round to asking the
question today. Does anyone have any suggestions as to the ruler of contact
lenses? Are they located in the 6th house? The Sun, I believe, is the ruler
of eye problems, but is it associated with lenses?

Where are my contact lenses?
Question asked at 3:41 pm BST on the 10th July 1997 in Cabinteely, (53N15
06W09 30).

Thanks
Andrew Smith



Thread: The Zodiac & the Globe Theatre
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:45:51 +0900 (JST)

Don't know if anyone else knows about this but the newly built Globe Theatre
in London has a zodiac painted on its ceiling. There is a photograph of the
theatre (on page 95 in the 26th June edition of L'Express) in which the
centaur of Sagittarius to the Ram of Aries are clearly visible, along with
the Sun and the Moon in two of the corners.

Does anyone know why? Did the original have have one? Were Sam Wannamaker
(the actor who organized the building of the theatre) and/or the architect
interested in astrology?



Thread: Hong Kong Changeover
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 18:28:15 -0400 (EDT)

At 03:44 AM 7/9/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi John,
>Hong Kong Changeover was 5.00 PM BST = 16.00 GMT, 30 Jun 97
>hope that helps . (source:- UK BBC Radio 4.)
>
So that would mean that HK did not use DST this year, probably
because it would have caused confusion on the changeover. (the
International Atlas indicates they normally do use DST, or at least did use
it. Perhaps it isi time to do a major revision as I can't find any
indication that they have done that since 1980).
Does anyone know of any software package that covers time changes?
I have tried quite a number of web searches for sites matching the subject
and none of the sites are worth a damn.
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Mail to the list
From: Tom Nicholson <tpotts@metronet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:13:22 +0100

Hi John,
yes, this is happening to me too.

Tom :)

----------
From: John Reder
Sent: 08 July 1997 17:01
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Mail to the list

Anyone else having a problem with sending mail in to the list?
Everytime I send something in, it does get delivered...BUT...I also get a
copy back from the mail daemon saying it was undeliverable.
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)





Thread: Hong Kong Changeover
From: Tom Nicholson <tpotts@metronet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:04:30 +0100

Hi John,
you wrote:
----------
From: John Reder
Sent: 08 July 1997 19:48
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Hong Kong Changeover

On the chart for the changeover, I have been going by the midnight
July 1, local time as was stated in the treat. Local time was supposed to
be on DST. However, the question comes to mind "Did they switch at midnight
DST or was it ST?" I saw the ceremony on CNN, but I don't remember exactly
what the time was here. All I do remember was that I thought at the time
that it didn't seem to match what the midnight was supposed to be there. Is
anyone on the list from Hong Kong that would know for sure?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)

The time of the changeover, as stated in my TV pages, was 4:00 pm GMT (12:00 midnight local time), on June 30.

Tom :)




Thread: Does this electional chart bite?
From: Jewell Peterson - Starsinger <jewellstar@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 14:23:33 -0700

I have a chart made for me a while ago for my business. Now that i have
been reading your group, I am afraid that this chart is a disaster and
my business is evidence of the possibility. The data follows: July
20,1994. at 10:30am in Palm Springs, Ca. 33N49 116W32. Moon is in
Capricorn. I just found out that is a no-no. He did put the North Node
in the second house with Jupiter, but they are in Scorpio. Venus is in
the twelfth in Virgo. The POF is in the sixth. My business has been
art and I did fairly well for the first two years, though I needed some
financial assistance. I was doing quite well as a counseling astrologer,
also. I was not getting rich, but I got by and was pleased with the
responses to my ads and such. Calls were coming in regularly for art
sales and the galleries were getting interested. At the first of this
year something happened. the bottom fell out. I have not made one penny
since January. Of course I did have Pluto go station at 5 degrees
opposing my Natal sun in the twelfth house at 5 degrees Gemini. Am I
barking up the wrong tree? Thanks for any comments.


Thread: Re sinister/dexter (again!)
From: Tom Nicholson <tpotts@metronet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:11:35 +0100

Hi,
there still seems to be some confusion about the meaning of sinister &
dexter aspects. A sinister aspect is cast in an anti-clockwise direction,
a dexter aspect is cast in a clockwise direction. The issue of which
planet is the faster moving of the two is irrelevant.
Suppose Saturn is in Aries and Venus in Gemini and they are in sextile
aspect. Then Venus casts a dexter sextile to Saturn, while Saturn casts a
sinister sextile to Venus. It is nonsense to say that Venus and Saturn, as
a pair, make a dexter aspect, just as it is nonsense to say that two people
standing side by side are standing in a leftwards direction to each other.
If you still think dexter means waxing / opening / outgoing / 'between
conjunction and opposition', then please look on pages 395 - 396 of
Christian Astrology: " . . . Mars cast his square dexter to Mercury",

Tom :)




Thread: Mail to the list
From: Rainbomoon@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:45:49 -0400 (EDT)

yes..sent in my first post 2 days ago thinking perhaps was too
long.......sorry ..if you find it so..whenever the post shows up....Laura.


Thread: Mail to the list
From: DKPaiger@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:00:12 -0400 (EDT)

Hey John--Yes, I have same problem with mail (as you may recall!). But more
importantly, how 'bout a soundbite on the Gary Devore situation?? Just so we
can
put all these cyber horaries to bed :)


Thread: Hong Kong Changeover
From: Gill Norman <history@astronet.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 03:44:20 +0100

Hi John,
Hong Kong Changeover was 5.00 PM BST = 16.00 GMT, 30 Jun 97
hope that helps . (source:- UK BBC Radio 4.)

Did anyone time "the raising of the chinese flag"? Was it exactly at
(local Hong Kong) midnight?

6 hours later at (local HK) 6 AM 1 July 97, the military arrived
..perhaps a useful chart re future intentions. Taiwan's obviously
worried it could be targeted now, yet may ultimately choose to align
with China, who will be the dominent world economy by 2010 !


In message <2.2.16.19970708144525.25877392@tiac.net>, John Reder
<jreder@tiac.net> writes
> On the chart for the changeover, I have been going by the midnight
>July 1, local time as was stated in the treat. Local time was supposed to
>be on DST. However, the question comes to mind "Did they switch at midnight
>DST or was it ST?" I saw the ceremony on CNN, but I don't remember exactly
>what the time was here. All I do remember was that I thought at the time
>that it didn't seem to match what the midnight was supposed to be there. Is
>anyone on the list from Hong Kong that would know for sure?
>John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)

--
Gill Norman Astronet UK BBS
Glastonbury England 51N06 02W42


Thread: FW: Sinister/Dexter
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:11:54 -0400 (EDT)

At 10:29 AM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I had an idea for a mnemonic device for dexter and sinister. Maybe it's
>been suggested before; if so, "never mind" (as Emily Litella would say.)
>
>You can think of the "sinister" aspect as one where the faster planet is
>sinisterly sneaking up behind the slower planet, while little Dexter runs
>ahead of his slower moving momma.
>
>-JoAnne
>
>
>
>
Alan Leo's definition (Dictionary of Astrology) is:

SINISTER AND DEXTER. Aspects cast to the left and right respectively
according to the order of the signs. Thus a slow planet in Aries will cast
a sinster sextile to a more rapid planet in Gemini, while the lattter casts
a dexter aspect to the former.

So it seems not to be a "sneaking up behind" for the sinister, but
merely being
"out of order" in respect to the signs. More akin to the slower planet
being like the hour hand and the faster the minutes hand.
Sort of like a 90 degree aspect in normal clockwise motion is
appraching (quarter to the hour) or departing (quarter after the hour). You
are early or late.
Though some othe book will probably say something different. It's
like my grandmother says "It's always something!"
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Time of the Mars landing
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 14:09:13 -0700

>TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
"official time" is 10:07:25 a.m. PDT in Pasadena, CA,
Charmaine wrote:
>It seems there is some discrepancy in the time of the Mars landing.
>Knight-Ridder is reporting that there is a 10-minute time lag in the
>radio signal from Mars to Earth. So the actual physical landing time
>may be 9:57 am PDT instead.
>
Dear Charmaine
you make a very interesting point. However, the entire Pathfinder mission
hinged on that radio signal getting through. So the time when the
Pathfinder landed on Mars becomes less significant; on the other hand, the
time that the signal was picked up in Pasadena, becomes crucial to the
success of the mission. Because if the Pathfinder landed safely but if the
radio signal was not recieved here on earth, then the Pathfinder Mission
would have been useless to us, because we would be unable to utilize the
information. Similarly we do not have the astrological'know - how' at this
time yet to read a chart drawn from Mars, so the time that Pathfinder landed
on the red planet is irrevelent to us, as astrologers.
here's the pathfinder transmission

     04 Jul 1997
     10.07 A.M. (7)
     118.09 WEST
     34.09 NORTH
     04H  05M  22S
     Regiomontanus
                 08 CAN             03 GEM             29 ARI
                     *                *                *
               MO11Can                *                SA19Ari
               SU12Can  *             *             *
     09 LEO    ME23Can                *                            01 ARI
          *    VE07Leo     *          *          *                *
              *                       *                       *
                  *           *       *       *           *  SN23Pis
                      *               *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                              *               *
        PF05Vir              *                 *
     05 VIR ******************                 ******************* 05 PIS
                             *                 *
                              *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                      *               *               *
        NN23Vir   *           *       *       *           *  JU20Aqu
              *  MA07Lib              *                       *
          *                *          *          *                *
     01 LIB                           *                            09 AQU
                        *     PL03Sag *             *  UR07Aqu
                                      *                NE29Cpr
                     *                *                *
                 29 LIB             03 SAG             08 CPR

Thread: Hong Kong Changeover
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:47:37 -0400 (EDT)

On the chart for the changeover, I have been going by the midnight
July 1, local time as was stated in the treat. Local time was supposed to
be on DST. However, the question comes to mind "Did they switch at midnight
DST or was it ST?" I saw the ceremony on CNN, but I don't remember exactly
what the time was here. All I do remember was that I thought at the time
that it didn't seem to match what the midnight was supposed to be there. Is
anyone on the list from Hong Kong that would know for sure?
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: US timezones
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:00:52 -0400 (EDT)

There is a good example of this in the book on Custer "Son of The
Morning Star", by Evan S. Connel. There is a section where he discusses the
time of the Little Big Horn Massacre. From the old mystery story cliche,
they know the "time" of the massacre from the broken watches, but it is
litereally impossible to know what time they were going by. (probably
Washington, DC time even though that would have been off in relationion to
the Sun,) All they wanted time for was to know when 2 hours had passed to
change the guard. Nobody ever thought to record what time they used and
nobody even thought to ask until the 20th Century and everyone who might
have known was dead.

At 07:58 AM 7/8/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Good response, thanks. It's easy to forget sometimes that our
>forefathers didn't necessarily share our obsession with precision (as
>if, given their technology, they even could).
>
>On 7 Jul 97 about Re: US timezones, John Reder <jreder@tiac.net>
>wrote:
>
>> That just gives you the "time zone", it falls in, as related to the
>> present. Time
>> zones were not established until a few years later in 1883. While
>> theoretically that would be the time they SHOULD have been using. Time was
>> a civil matter and dependent on what the individual local governments
decreed.
>> Most likely they would have used the time zone that corresponded
>> with St Louis time, which would be Chicago time. Truth being that they
>> would be most likely setting their clocks by what the rail road said the
>> time was, as the RR time table was the only thing they really needed to
>> know about.
>____________________________________________________________________
>Kris Shapar
>
> To doubt everything or to believe everything
> are two equally convenient solutions; both
> dispense with the necessity of reflection.
>
> - Jules Henri Poincare
>____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Mail to the list
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:00:55 -0400 (EDT)

Anyone else having a problem with sending mail in to the list?
Everytime I send something in, it does get delivered...BUT...I also get a
copy back from the mail daemon saying it was undeliverable.
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: FW: Sinister/Dexter
From: JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:29:08 -0400

I had an idea for a mnemonic device for dexter and sinister. Maybe it's
been suggested before; if so, "never mind" (as Emily Litella would say.)

You can think of the "sinister" aspect as one where the faster planet is
sinisterly sneaking up behind the slower planet, while little Dexter runs
ahead of his slower moving momma.

-JoAnne



Thread: US timezones
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:03:22 -0400 (EDT)

That just gives you the "time zone", it falls in, as related to the
present. Time
zones were not established until a few years later in 1883. While
theoretically that would be the time they SHOULD have been using. Time was
a civil matter and dependent on what the individual local governments decreed.
Most likely they would have used the time zone that corresponded
with St Louis time, which would be Chicago time. Truth being that they
would be most likely setting their clocks by what the rail road said the
time was, as the RR time table was the only thing they really needed to
know about.

At 09:20 AM 7/7/97 +0000, you wrote:
>You could try the Astrodienst site at http://www.astro.ch/atlas/
>
>It was able to calculate a chart in Dec., 1866 for Springfield, MO,
>but couldn't find the town in WY.
>
>On 6 Jul 97 about US timezones, John Frawley
><j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Daer All,
>>
>> Is there somewhere on the Web that details the intricacies of American
>> time-zones in the 19th century?
>>
>> The places I am immediately concerned with are Springfield, Missouri, July
>> 1865 & Fort Phil Kearny, Wyoming, December 1866.
>>
>> Thanks, John Frawley
>>
>> The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>> Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>____________________________________________________________________
>Kris Shapar
>
> To doubt everything or to believe everything
> are two equally convenient solutions; both
> dispense with the necessity of reflection.
>
> - Jules Henri Poincare
>____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Azimene etc
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:55:46 -0400 (EDT)

Client JK has a number of such degrees. DOB 10/7/60 11:10 PM CDT 087W39
41N51. Ascendant 12 Cancer and Moon ruler at 24 Taurus, as well a Jupiter
ruler of 6th are in deep/pitted degrees. Sun and Neptune in Azimene degree.

This young man was not born lame as might have been indicated with Azimene
degree on the Ascendant. Around age 20, he began loosing feeling in the left
side of his body. He was diagnosed with MS and received a confirmation of
this diagnosis at Mayo Clinic. By the time he was in his late 20's he
exhibited a considerable limp and had lost the use of his left hand.

In an interesting development, when he was 28, his new wife got a job
overseeing software installations at a major university. She was testing a
new medical diagnostic program and entered her husband's symtoms. By this
time, he his speech had become slurred considerably.The first diagnosis to
appear was that of heavy metal poisoning. The second was MS. He was tested
and found to have high doses of mercury in his body from the silver amalgams
in his teeth. These were removed and he has had extensive chelation therapy.
The symptoms have not progressed but he has had no improvement. He now has a
lawsuit pending against his former employer for discrimination. He worked as
a compuer programer and was dismissed from his job because his employer felt
he could no longer do the work.

JK states he has a good marriage. His wife, however, is very quite critical
of him and seems to believe some of his symptoms are now psychosomatic. She
spends a considerable amount of her energy managing his health and lawsuit.
They have a adopted a child who has turned out to be a musical prodigy.

One of my most interesting clients!

Maggie




Thread: Sinister/Dexter
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:21:01 -0400 (EDT)

At 09:23 AM 7/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>John,
>
>You wrote,
>
>> I suppose
>>you could use some variations of waxing and waning, applying them to all
>>planets and not just the Sun and Moon, and get a clearer description of
>>what is happening . Perhaps saying that Saturn in Aries is making a
>>"dewaning" aspect to Venus in Gemini and Venus is making a waning to Saturn.
>
>I believe you meant to say that Venus would be "waxing" to Saturn (as
>opposed to waning). Venus would be moving towards an opposition with Saturn
>just as the Moon would be moving towards an opposotion with the Sun during
>its waxing (Full Mooon) phase.
>

I was thinking of it in terms of the slow moving planet being the
"Sun" in the equation. Obviously "waxing and waning" doesn't work much
better that sinister and dexter.
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: US timezones
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:20:59 -0400 (EDT)

Before 1883 time was totally unstandardized and cities would select
their own time as LMT, with no relationship to the time zones we now use.
In most cases large cities would adopt a time and other places close by
would adopt those times, but what city they chose to follow could be
whatever they really wanted. It would not have been uncommon for a town in
Nevada, for example, to go by Chicago time instead of San Francisco time and
a another town near Chicago could go by New York Time. You couldn't know
now, what it might have been without checking the records of that town.

At 02:29 AM 7/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Daer All,
>
>Is there somewhere on the Web that details the intricacies of American
>time-zones in the 19th century?
>
>The places I am immediately concerned with are Springfield, Missouri, July
>1865 & Fort Phil Kearny, Wyoming, December 1866.
>
>Thanks, John Frawley
>
>The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: US timezones
From: "Kris Shapar" <Kristina@aldebaran.mmco.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:20:16 +0000

You could try the Astrodienst site at http://www.astro.ch/atlas/

It was able to calculate a chart in Dec., 1866 for Springfield, MO,
but couldn't find the town in WY.

On 6 Jul 97 about US timezones, John Frawley
<j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Daer All,
>
> Is there somewhere on the Web that details the intricacies of American
> time-zones in the 19th century?
>
> The places I am immediately concerned with are Springfield, Missouri, July
> 1865 & Fort Phil Kearny, Wyoming, December 1866.
>
> Thanks, John Frawley
>
> The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
> Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________
Kris Shapar

To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.

- Jules Henri Poincare
____________________________________________________________________



Thread: Sinister/Dexter
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:39:45 +1000

At 09:23 6/07/97 -0400, solwind wrote:
>John,
>
>You wrote,
>
>> I suppose
>>you could use some variations of waxing and waning, applying them to all
>>planets and not just the Sun and Moon, and get a clearer description of
>>what is happening . Perhaps saying that Saturn in Aries is making a
>>"dewaning" aspect to Venus in Gemini and Venus is making a waning to Saturn.

Try Opening and Closing! And you always apply the slower moving planet to
the faster moving planet - so all you've got is Venus in opening sextile to
Saturn. End.
>
>I believe you meant to say that Venus would be "waxing" to Saturn (as
>opposed to waning). Venus would be moving towards an opposition with Saturn
>just as the Moon would be moving towards an opposotion with the Sun during
>its waxing (Full Mooon) phase.

Correct.

Linda





Thread: Sinister/Dexter
From: "solwind" <solwind@nb.net> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 09:23:50 -0400

John,

You wrote,

> I suppose
>you could use some variations of waxing and waning, applying them to all
>planets and not just the Sun and Moon, and get a clearer description of
>what is happening . Perhaps saying that Saturn in Aries is making a
>"dewaning" aspect to Venus in Gemini and Venus is making a waning to Saturn.

I believe you meant to say that Venus would be "waxing" to Saturn (as
opposed to waning). Venus would be moving towards an opposition with Saturn
just as the Moon would be moving towards an opposotion with the Sun during
its waxing (Full Mooon) phase.

Angela,

The folloing is a poosting from DR. GONZALO PENA TAMEZ to the now defunct
Project Hindsight Mailing List which attempts to answer your question
concerning retrogrades within Sinister/Dexter issues:.

>Another way to avoid confusion on this issue of when an aspect is dexter
>and when it is sinister is to consider the aspect in the context of the
>SYNODIC CYCLE of the two variables involved. The period of the synodic
>cycle of any pair of planets is measured from the moment they are in partile
>(exact) conjunction until they meet again for the next conjunction, assuming
>neither of them retrogrades while in conjunction. If they do retrograde
>then one could take the average of the partiles involved in the conjunction.
>Thus the synodic period of any pair of planets is the length of time that
>elapses from one conjunction (that may have more than one partile if
>retrogradation is involved) to the next one. In times past, the term
>"synod" was used instead of conjunction. Thus, the "Jupiter/Saturn synod"
>is synonymous with "Jupiter/Saturn conjunction", and the synodic period for
>these two planets is of 19.9 years, which is the time they take to meet
>again, reckoned from their previous meeting.
> At their synod or conjunction, the faster moving planet overpasses the
>slower moving one and then all the aspects they form until they reach their
>opposition will be dexter by definition. Thus dexter is synonymous with
>waxing, while sinister is the same than waning. Dexter or waxing aspects
>are also called evolutive, while sinister or waning aspects are called
>involutive by some authors. Clearly at the first or growing quarter the
>Moon is in dexter square to the Sun, while in the second or waning quarter
>the Moon is in sinister square to the Sun.
> In his Encyclopedia of Astrology, Nicholas Devore states that it was
>Ptolomy who used for the first time the terms dexter and sinister as applied
>to aspects, but maybe Robert Schmidt will correct Devore on this point, as
>he seems to imply in a recent posting (Re:Dexter, 20/07/96) that although
>the pre-Ptolemaic greek authors used other terms like "hurling of rays" and
>"looking at" to connote whether the aspect was waxing or waning, they
>nonetheless also used the dexter/sinister epithets sometimes.
> It is generally believed that the dexter aspects are more benefic than the
>sinister ones, and it has been hypothesized whether this could be because of
>the Doppler effect: when the aspect is dexter the aspecting or faster moving
>body is increasing its distance from the aspected body thus causing a shift
>towards the violet end of the spectrum, which is ruled by Jupiter and venus,
>while when the aspect is sinister the faster moving body is moving in the
>direction of the aspected body thus causing a shift towards the red end of
>the spectrum which is ruled by Mars. If this were so, then when one of the
>planets is retrograding the sinister should work like a dexter and
>viceversa. Of course neither the opposition nor the conjunction could be
>labeled dexter or sinister.

I hope this helps a bit.

Sharing the Quest,

jean



-----------------------------------------------------------------
Fate is to those asleep under the stars
As destiny is to those awakened by them.

website: <http://www.nb.net/~solwind/>

-----------------------------------------------------------------



Thread: US timezones
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:29:50 -0700

Daer All,

Is there somewhere on the Web that details the intricacies of American
time-zones in the 19th century?

The places I am immediately concerned with are Springfield, Missouri, July
1865 & Fort Phil Kearny, Wyoming, December 1866.

Thanks, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Azimene etc
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 01:51:10 -0700

Dear All,

Does anyone have experience of azimene, lame, pitted etc degrees that they
would like to share?

Thanks, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Time of the Mars landing 10:07:25 a.m. PDT Pasadena CA July 4, 97
From: Charmaine Horvath <tisifone@akron.infi.net> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 03:15:45 -0400

TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
>
> Here is the AP release regarding the landing on Mars. The "official time" is
> 10:07:25 a.m. PDT in Pasadena, CA, for those who would like to study the
> chart.
>
> .c The Associated Press

Hi Tony et al,

It seems there is some discrepancy in the time of the Mars landing.
Knight-Ridder is reporting that there is a 10-minute time lag in the
radio signal from Mars to Earth. So the actual physical landing time
may be 9:57 am PDT instead.

Setting this chart for Washington DC puts Mars right on the Ascendant
with Fortune and Spirit there as well since this day held a new Moon.
Mars receives a partile sextile from Venus--on the sinister side--and a
partile dexter trine from Uranus.

I agree that sinister just doesn't sound right to the twentieth century
English ear, especiall when talking about a Venus sextile.

Nonetheless, this is quite a remarkable chart and well worth a look.

Charmaine Horvath



Thread: Sorry for the oops!
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:40:43 -0400 (EDT)

There is apparantly something wrong with the mailer sending out
notices that mail is not going through. Anything I send to the group is
sent back saying it is undeliverable, but also goes through. I have had
that happen each time I sent something the last month, but my mail does go
through and your mail was delivered.

At 06:29 PM 7/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi! I sent you my response to the Gary Devore case, but the mailer demon
>sent it back to me unable to send. So, I thought I was just re-sending it to
>you! Here it is:
>
>7/2/97 9:55 am EDST I wrote:
>
>I erected a chart for you at (8:38 am EDST) when I first needed to know where
>he might be. Your chart gave me the distinct impression that your last
>discussion with him was not a particularly happy one, leaving you with less
>than a favorable taste.
>
>First of all, he WILL return (too many retrogrades for him not to); his ruler
>is R, the natural 9th house ruler is R, co-ruler of his 7th is R. He is
>uneasy of mind and secretly worried about his health (his ruler cadent and in
>12th) involving news of a Saturnian nature heard about 5 weeks ago. He is in
>seclusion by his own choice.
>The end of the matter involves Venus in Leo suggesting some cosmetic vanity
>as well, altho I feel it is more than that. However, Jupiter is with him so
>how bad could it be?! (unless he's a gambler, of course!)
>
>Hope this helps and, of course, would like to be kept abreast of the
>situation.
>
>Thanks. Debbie King
>
>
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Re. Sinister/Dexter
From: Tom Nicholson <tpotts@metronet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:42:05 +0100

Dear all,
the terms sinister and dexter simply mean left and right respectively. In
the northern hemisphere we look southwards (and up!) at the zodiac. The
normal anti-clockwise order of the signs of the zodiac runs from West to
East, ie right to left. So if two planets are visible in the night sky,
and are aspecting each other, the one on the right casts its sinister
(leftwards) aspect to the one on the left, and likewise, the one on the
left casts its dexter (rightwards) aspect to the one on the right. More
generally, for planets above or below the horizon, a planet casts its
sinister aspects in an anti-clockwise sense, and its dexter aspects in a
clockwise sense.
As to which planet is the faster moving of the two, this is beside the
point. The question of whether the aspect is waxing/outgoing/"seperating"
or waning/incoming/"applying", is also not relevant. In any aspect (except
conjunction and opposition), one planet is casting a sinister aspect, while
the other is casting a dexter aspect back. For example, at the Moon's
first quarter, the Moon casts a dexter square to the Sun, while the Sun
casts a sinister square to the Moon.
If you want an example in Lilly's CA, take a look at pages 395 & 396.
Here, Mercury in Taurus is the significator of a thief. Mars in Leo "...
casts his square dexter to Mercury". The fact that Mercury casts a square
sinister to Mars is not of interest here, since Lilly is examining the
effect of Mars on Mercury, not of Mercury on Mars.
I hope this makes things clearer, (despite the current Moon - Neptune
opposition!),

Tom Nicholson.



Thread: Gary Devore is missing
From: DKPaiger@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 14:52:04 -0400 (EDT)

Dear Dorothy; At the risk of sounding ever so ignorant, might I ask you
something as I am new to this type of e-mail thing! My initial letter sent
to Lilly and jreder came back to me from the mail server--I can't figure out
how you know about my response to his Devore question!!? But, thanks for
responding anyway!

Do you have any critique of my response? What did you come up with? I based
my chart on my location and time that I became more than casually interested
in the outcome of this situation. (7/2/97, 8:38 am EDST, Sebastian, FL
Longitude 80/37--Latitude 28/05).

Tell me what you think? And, should I resend my response to the querent?

Thanks much, Debbie King


Thread: Time of the Mars landing 10:07:25 a.m. PDT Pasadena CA July 4, 97
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:54:32 -0400 (EDT)

Here is the AP release regarding the landing on Mars. The "official time" is
10:07:25 a.m. PDT in Pasadena, CA, for those who would like to study the
chart.

.c The Associated Press

PASADENA, Calif. (July 4) - After a wild ride across a cold and barren
landscape, NASA's Pathfinder came to rest on a Martian plain Friday,
inaugurating a new era in the search for life on Mars by transmitting the
first photographs from the red planet's surface in two decades.

>From where Pathfinder sits, a reddish-brown plain extends to low hills on the
horizon. Strewn all about are sharp, angular boulders that make the place
look as barren and desolate as the most forbidding desert.

But to scientists it looked like paradise.

``Today is a glorious day,'' said Peter Smith, who leads the team operating
Pathfinder's camera. ``Those are the rocks that may hold clues to the history
of Mars.''

Cocooned in giant air bags, Pathfinder bounced as high as 50 feet above the
Martian surface Friday morning before tumbling for 1 1/2 minutes and
settling on the desolate plain.

Soon after receiving a faint signal at 10:07:25 a.m. PDT, flight controllers
declared the mission off to a successful start and scientists at NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory leaped to their feet and cheered.



Thread: Sinister/Dexter
From: John Reder <jreder@tiac.net> Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:53:44 -0400 (EDT)

At 09:11 AM 7/3/97 EDT, you wrote:
>*** Resending note of 07/03/97 14:09

>
>My first try with the new address, so hope it works. Thanks Carol.

>
>Can anyone confirm or redirect my understanding of sinister/dexter, please,
as
> I'm not sure I've got the right idea here.

>
>Apparently this is when an aspect is made anticlockwise, in the order of
the
>signs (sinister); or clockwise, against the order of the signs (dexter).

>Does this therefore mean that, unless a planet is retrograde, a sinister

>aspect is an applying aspect, and a dexter aspect is a separating one?

>
>Angela

>
>
>
>
It relates to the signs and not the planets themselves. In a
universal order Aries preceeds Gemini. So a slow moving planet in Aries
will cast a sinister aspect on a fast planet in Gemini. (ie Saturn in Aries
is making a "sinister" aspect to Venus inGemini and Venus is making a dexter
to Saturn) Or, more simply, the Moon's first quarter is sinister, her last
dexter.
It is confusing in that sinister/dexter are really stupid names that
don't describe the phenomena at all. Sinister immediately starts you off
thinking "eevil" in some way and you are off down the wrong road. I suppose
you could use some variations of waxing and waning, applying them to all
planets and not just the Sun and Moon, and get a clearer description of
what is happening . Perhaps saying that Saturn in Aries is making a
"dewaning" aspect to Venus in Gemini and Venus is making a waning to Saturn.
_\|/_
(o o)
-----------o00-(_)-00o-------------
John Reder (jreder@tiac.net)



Thread: Gary Devore is missing
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 08:20:33 -0700

Debbie King
Thank you for your chart. Would you mind sharing the complete data
(especially the location for your chart). I will keep you posted on what
ever I hear about the Devore case. Thanks for your insights!

Thanks!

Dorothy

>At 09:55 AM 7/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I erected a chart for this am (8:38 EST) when I first needed to know where he
>might be. Your chart gave me the distinct impression that your last
>discussion with him was not a particularly happy one, leaving you with a less
>than favorable taste.
>
>First of all, he WILL return --his ruler Retro, natural ruler of 9th Retro,
>co-ruler in 7th Retro (he is my 7th house as I do not know him). He is
>uneasy of mind and secretly worried about his health (his ruler cadent and in
>12th) involving news of a Saturnian nature he heard about 5 weeks ago. He is
>in seclusion by own choice.
>
>The end of the matter involves Venus and in Leo suggests some cosmetic vanity
>although I feel it is more than just that. However, Jupiter is with him so
>how bad could it be?!
>
>Hope this helps and of course, would like to be kept abreast of the
>situation!
>
>Debbie King
>
>
>
>
>



Thread: Antiscions
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 09:20:53 EDT

*** Resending note of 06/03/97 14:18


Studying Antiscions, please cld anyone clarify the situation re aspects being
made to them? In CA p90, Lilly says "....he giveth virtue or influence to any
star or planet that at that time either is in the same degree by conjunction,
or casteth any aspect unto it." Do others use all the aspects or just
conjunction only? It does become doubly confusing, admittedly, because
on p92 Lilly interprets the antiscion as trine or sextile, and the contra as
square or opposition. So, how can an aspect aspect an aspect? Hmmmmm...

Also, he does say, p92, that the antiscion "...which of the good planets we
think are equal to sextile or trine..." So what difference if it's Mars or
Saturn, which are not traditionally viewed as the 'good' guys.

Thanks

Angela



Thread: Sinister/Dexter
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 09:11:39 EDT

*** Resending note of 07/03/97 14:09

My first try with the new address, so hope it works. Thanks Carol.

Can anyone confirm or redirect my understanding of sinister/dexter, please, as
I'm not sure I've got the right idea here.

Apparently this is when an aspect is made anticlockwise, in the order of the
signs (sinister); or clockwise, against the order of the signs (dexter).
Does this therefore mean that, unless a planet is retrograde, a sinister
aspect is an applying aspect, and a dexter aspect is a separating one?

Angela



Thread: Gary Devore is missing
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 19:01:11 -0700
Status: U

you wrote:
> This chart would not be as valid as an actual horay chart for the
>time his disappearance was noted or enquired about.
John, this is not a horary, it is an event chart; It is the time his wife
said she last spoke with him, if the time is correct it is a valid time. Why
do you feel event times less valid than horaries? Using event times goes all
the way back to Dorotheus of Sidon. With all do respect, wouldn't it make
sense that and event time would be more valid than a horary asked by a
person with little or no connection to the actual situation?
> We cannot rely on the
>time, seeing as how at this point, nobody was actually noting it as anything
>important.
The time comes a news report on Los Angeles KABC Sunday night June 29th at
approximately 11:07p PST. It was important enough for her to give this time
to the police and to the news media. It was important time for Gary Devore's
wife to offer a $10,000. reward for information leading to finding Gary
Devore. The event chart shows what has taken place and will indicate what
might happen in the future, in my humble opinion or better than an horary
asked by a person unassociated with the incident.
> Anyway, I am always suspicious of Saturn in the 7th. I find in a
>horay chart that it is often an indication of the 1st house person not being
>truthfulness with the 7th house person, and that is the reason for it's
>general rule against judgement.
As and astrologer, I have not found Saturn in the 7th indicative of people,
lying to me, or trying to keep me in the dark but I guess will keep this
sinister possibility more in mind in the future. I have found that most of
the time Saturn in the 7th is usually a sign that there is a calculation
error. And a warning that the astrologer has to be doubly careful. I dont
see Saturn in the 7th as a big bad stricture. But I am not above asking for
another opinion when I see this.
> With Mercury square the Asc./Dsc. and
>especially in Cancer the real story isn't quite out there.
> With Venus, Mars and Pluto all in good aspect and on the side ruling
>the Asc, it tends to indicate that someone is playing games with this.
Yes I agree. And it goes along what you say about asc lying to dec, and
there you have Gary ruled by Venus in Leo in the mc, as you point out, lying
to Saturn Moon in the 7th, his wife, who's worry is shown by that very moon
saturn, and what Gary is thinking about her as he calls. I read it as that
Gary was lying to his wife and instead of heading home from Barstow was
heading east to LasVegas, (that was the night of the Hollyfield/Tyson
bout), maybe, to have some fun, hopefully he didnt decide to gamble, because
the Moon applies to square the parsfortuna. She is more in love of the two,
she is on his side of the chart, and he is on his side of the chart, she
(mars) is in his sign (Libra ruled by Venus). Now theres the Venus(Gary)
sextile Mars (mrs Devore) in the 12th? Eventually Gary will go home and kiss
and make up with an angry and somewhat embarrassed wife- mars in libra in
the 12th (ahem).
> As to what that means specifically is there is probably some
>bullshit going on here.
John, your usually so eloquent, why the naughty words?
-dorothy

Screenwriter
gary devore's last call to wife from Barstow, Ca.

>>     28 Jun 1997
>>     1.00 P.M. (7)
>>     117.01 WEST
>>     34.54 NORTH
>>     06H  39M  44S
>>     Regiomontanus
>>                 13 LEO             09 CAN             04 GEM
>>                     *        ME10Can *                *
>>                              PF25Can *
>>                        *     VE00Leo * SU07Can     *
>>     12 VIR                           *                            04 TAU
>>          *                *          *          *                *
>>              *                       *                       *
>>        NN23Vir   *           *       *       *           *
>>        MA04Lib       *               *               *
>>                          *      * ** * ** *      *
>>                              *               *              MO24Ari
>>                             *                 *             SA19Ari
>>     08 LIB ******************                 ******************* 08 ARI
>>                             *                 *
>>                              *               *
>>                          *      * ** * ** *      *
>>                      *               *               *
>>                  *           *       *       *           *  SN23Pis
>>              *                       *                       *
>>          *                *          *          *                *
>>     04 SCO                           *                            12 PIS
>>                        *             *             *
>>               PL03Sag                * UR07Aqu        JU21Aqu
>>                     *                * NE29Cpr        *
>>                 04 SAG             09 CPR             13 AQU




Thread: Gary Devore is missing
From: DKPaiger@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:55:18 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

I erected a chart for this am (8:38 EST) when I first needed to know where he
might be. Your chart gave me the distinct impression that your last
discussion with him was not a particularly happy one, leaving you with a less
than favorable taste.

First of all, he WILL return --his ruler Retro, natural ruler of 9th Retro,
co-ruler in 7th Retro (he is my 7th house as I do not know him). He is
uneasy of mind and secretly worried about his health (his ruler cadent and in
12th) involving news of a Saturnian nature he heard about 5 weeks ago. He is
in seclusion by own choice.

The end of the matter involves Venus and in Leo suggests some cosmetic vanity
although I feel it is more than just that. However, Jupiter is with him so
how bad could it be?!

Hope this helps and of course, would like to be kept abreast of the
situation!

Debbie King




Thread: Newsletter Article
From: Lillian Huber <lhuber@ilinks.net> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:04:43 -0400

Dear Carol, (Wiggers)

The following is an article written by Gloria Star, which pretty much covers
UAC. I'm sure she won't mind your using it!! Also, I'm sending you a copy
of the brochure for your own info. Will mail it in the morning. Check out
our web page at http://www.stars.org/uac/
You'll find ALL the info there!

Best,

Lillian

P.S. Carol Tebbs is our PR, so I'm copying her on this email


>UAC'98: Atlanta Plays Host for UAC's Jupiter Return!
>by Gloria Star
>
>It was in 1986 that the first United Astrology Congress was
>launched. The idea was risky, and the results provided one of
>the most exciting astrological conferences of the decade. From
>May 21st to 26th, 1998 astrologers from around the globe will
>once again gather at the United Astrology Congress for UAC'98 to
>share ideas, investigate new frontiers and further the
>development of astrology and astrologers as we prepare for a new
>millennium.
>
>When the first UAC happened, the astrological world was all abuzz
>with the excitement about the approaching Saturn-Uranus
>conjunction. Jupiter was in Pisces (begging the pardon of my
>Sideralist friends), and the mood of the conference was
>all-encompassing -- astrological topics covered the entire
>spectrum of human experience. When we convene in Atlanta in 1998,
>Jupiter will once again be in Pisces marking its return, the
>revolutions of the cycles bringing an ever-evolving focus to the
>many facets of astrology. Working with the collective energy
>through Uranus and Neptune in Aquarius in 1998 we can see its
>time for astrology to take another leap! Congresses like UAC give
>us a chance to take those broad steps. Here is a grand
>opportunity to have a superb meeting of the minds, to discover
>new friends and embrace old acquaintances.
>
>The conference itself is taking shape rather nicely. You'll be
>receiving your brochure very soon, but you can catch all the
>latest information about UAC on the web page if you're online by
>logging onto http://www.stars.org/uac/ where you'll find
>information about the faculty, events and pre- and
>post-conferences. The conference will feature 100 of the world's
>top astrologers offering 216 classes in subjects which span
>fifteen tracks plus a new Initiation to Astrology track. The
>"Initiation" track is a program for newcomers to astrology which
>will cover all the foundations of astrology without the technical
>calculations, but the math will be offered during evening
>workshops for those who want it.
>
>Every evening there is great entertainment planned, beginning
>with our exciting keynote speaker, Thomas Moore, on Thursday
>evening, May 21st. You're familiar with Moore's wonderful books
>on practical spirituality -- Care of the Soul, SoulMates and The
>Re-Enchantment of Everyday Life, and he's also written an
>excellent astrology book, The Planets Within. We'll have
>parties, dancing, comedy and our Gala Regulus Awards Banquet --
>so come prepared to learn and to have a good time. You can shop
>in the best Trade Show imaginable, where you'll find all the
>software, books, astrological supplies and metaphysical goodies
>under one roof.
>
>The Pre-Conference on Wednesday May 20th is on "Computers and
>Astrological Software," and the Post-Congress Workshops on May
>27th feature Lynn Bell, Christian Borup, Bernadette Brady, Karen
>Hammaker, Stephanie Johnson and Tad Mann.
>
>If you want to tour Atlanta, there are several options offered to
>UAC guests ranging from a tour of CNN to the Atlanta History
>Museum, and much more! But you'll also enjoy your stay at the
>fabulous Hyatt Regency Hotel in the heart of beautiful downtown
>Atlanta.
>
>For information about UAC, long onto the web page, or send
>inquiries via fax (after June 1) to 1-500-288-1997. If you're
>ready to register, call 1-888-468-6822 (after June 1)
>(registrations only, please!). Or, you can even register through
>UAC's web site. A system which will help keep your credit card
>information safe from the wrong eyes includes such features as
>splitting your credit card number into two different e-mail
>messages, making the system virtually foolproof! However, please
>wait until after June 1st to register! To make your hotel
>reservations, again AFTER June 1st, contact the Hyatt at
>800-233-1234 or 401-577-1234. Discount air fares are available
>through Delta Airlines, offering a 5% discount.
>
>All of us involved in organizing and planning this conference are
>growing more excited every day as we endeavor to make this the
>best UAC ever. Consider this your personal invitation to attend.
>See you there!
>