Thread: Request for Website info
From: RGrable604@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:04:01 -0800

Will this New Age Dicipline include Classical side of Astrology just curious.


Thread: Pars Mortis
From: Libran <mersey@groupz.net> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:15:15 -0800
Status: U

Robert Zoller in "The Arabic Parts in Astrology" has Bonatti calculating
the part of death as the distance of the Moon from the eighth house cusp
added to the position of Saturn. In Astrolog 5.30 the program is set to
add this distance to the Ascendant. Which technique is correct?

Stan Price


Thread: Update Mailinglists
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 11:06:36 -0800
Status: U

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

NEWSGROUPS
==========

"alt.astrology" - born July 29, 1991, 18:22:38 AEST (08:22:38 GMT),
Sydney, Australia (33S52 151E13)

"de.alt.astrologie" - in the German language, born January 5, 1994,
19:14:54 MET, Tuebingen, Germany (48N31 09E02)

"alt.jyotish" - born Jan. 5, 1995 21:28:33 GMT, Honolulu, Hawaii,
USA (21N19 157W52).

"alt.astrology.asian" - born May 9, 1995 00:08:56 GMT, Anaheim, CA,
USA (33N50 117W54).

"alt.astrology.marketplace" - born June 28, 1996, 09:17:30 pm PDT
(04:17:30 GMT June 29), San Diego, CA, USA
(32N43 117W09).
For astrological ADVERTISING!

"alt.astrology.metapsych" - born November 24, 1996, 02:05 am PST
La Jolla, CA, USA (32N51 117W16)

(The "International Congress Agenda" is posted
to most of these newsgroups on a weekly basis)

MAILINGLISTS
============

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(74W09, 42N02), U.S.A. To subscribe send Email
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(This list started as "Oracle-a") To subscribe
send Email to: nitefall@idirect.com with the
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all details. Moderator: Brandi Jasmine.

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for psychological astrology. To subscribe send
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end
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Love,
Tees
---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---


Thread: Discovery STS 82
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 13:09:12 -0800

>Being only a member since a week I hesitate to bring into discussion a
horary that does not do me any credit.

What does do you credit is that you are so honest. Such courage deserves
applause.

>>From a Professor in astronomy in Utrecht (Holland) I received the
following data about the Discovery STS 82 :
>Depart: 11 Febr.1997 - 03.5600 EST - Cape Kennedy 080W37 - 28N37 - AC
01.04 Cap - MC 16.07 Lib

Having looked at the chart, might I respectfully suggest that the data be
double-checked elsewhere - just for safety.

>Looking at the chart my explanation was the following :
>The ruler of the 1 st house, Saturn in Fall in the 3 rd in opposition wih
Mars Retro in Detriment in the 9 th
>gives the state of the Discovery as well as of the voyage, which are not so
good as both planets are in bad
>aspect with the AC also.
Although I would have used different significators, I agree with you that
the chart doesn't offer much hope at first sight. The Moon and ascendant
represent the ship itself with Saturn as the astronauts.

>The starting place is the 4 th house, with ruler the bad aspected Mars,
which is also the dispositor of the
>Moon; one could say there is something not OK with that place nor with the
Discovery either.

Lilly gives the 1st house to the point of departure, the 7th as the
destination, the 10th as the journey and the 4th to the return home.

>The object of the voyage is the 10 th house with ruler Venus, which makes a
trine with Mars in 9, but
>Mars Retro is receding from contact so I thought there will be postponement.
>
>Mercury, ruler of te 9 th is aspected well and that must have been the
reason why everything went smoothly
>after all. That is easy to say afterwards of course.
>But earnestly, would everyone of you have predicted that there would not be
any problem ?

It's easy to talk in hindsight, but you might agree that the traditional
significators are a little more helpful. I don't like the Moon and Saturn
below the horizon (and the Sun) because this usually offers a negative
outcome in this type of chart.

It's interesting to see all those airy planets in such a chart.

The angles are moveable which indicates a speedy journey, but Saturn
afflicts the Asc/Dsc which would suggest at least delay as you mention,
especially since Saturn is in fall. Mars' opposition to Saturn is unhelpful,
too (an understatement!). But perhaps you overlooked the strong recpetions
between Mars and Saturn, this should offset some of the evil of that
opposition. The other point to be noted is that Jupiter (reasonably strong
in this chart) interposes its rays between the two malefics. This, I think
is probably the saving indicator.

There is nothing whatever that can be said in defence of the malefics in
opposition - it is the nastiest of all configurations - only Jupiter can
mitigate the evil promised by that.

Since you were primarily interested (I think) in the safety of the crew, you
might like to look at the condition of Saturn. If the significator is
afflicted by the rulers of the 6th (illness), 8th (death) or 12th (general
misfortune) we might have cause to worry. I would say that Saturn is not
afflicted in this way and so that the crew will return safely.

The Moon's last application is to sextile the Sun and I would say that this
is often a promise of success.

I don't know much about this mission, but didn't I hear that they went to
fix the Hubble telescope and the damned thing fixed itself?! A wasted trip?
Saturn?

As I said it's easy to find the answer after the event, and I'm not sure
that I have, the chart isn't as clear as it might be. But maybe a look from
the traditional perspective might help.

Sincerely

Sue
>Anyhow I thought at the time that all the aspects named above, together
with Neptune in the first house and
>the last bad aspect of the Moon with that unfortunate that there would be
postponement or a earlier return
>than expected caused by a minor failure, expecting however that in any case
the astronauts would be safe and
>well because the 6 th house was unafflicted.
>
>As you all know the Discovery has just landed safely after a succesfull
voyage which has of course pleased me
>very much.
>But I am still not happy with the horary and should like to hear from you
what you would have predicted .
>
>TIA
>
>Paul Langeveld (Holland)
>
>
>
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Request for Website info
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:52:37 -0800

My publisher has asked me to do a brief book about the Internet for mental
health professionals. I would like to include a chapter on Astrology, New
Age disciplines, and mental health issues. If you know of any relevant web
pages, please let me know their URL addresses.

Thanks in advance,

Tony (aka Anthony Louis)


Thread: Deng Xiaoping:
From: "Hugh McNeill" <hcm@moose.co.uk> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 03:03:50 -0800

Deng Xiaoping was born in Guangan county, Sichuan province, (on 22
August 1904). I don't think his time of birth is known.

I picked up a rather interesting comment from the Daily Express of 20
Feb.97, page 14, and I quote as follows:

"Xiaoping - a name he chose himself at the outset of a long career of
revolution and conspiracy - means "small, peaceful and balanced"".

Does this suggest he might have been aware of Libra rising in his
chart? Certainly, his ability to counter-balance Mao for much of his
career would support this.

Deng Xiaoping was given to mysterious comments, one of these to the
Queen on her first and only visit to China in October 1986. He told
her that during his days in France in the 1920's, he had not been
able to see England from the top of the Eiffel Tower. (Source: Daily
Telegraph Obituary, 20 Feb.97).

An example of Libran subliminal communication?

Hugh
.

Hugh McNeill
hcm@moose.co.uk

Within the ashes
Lie love and inspiration


Thread: Discovery STS 82
From: "P. Langeveld" <Langeveld.P@net.hcc.nl> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 06:48:18 -0800

To Members william_lilly@halcyon.com

Being only a member since a week I hesitate to bring into discussion a horary that does not do me any credit.
I would have preferred to start with one of my succesful ones of which I am happy to say, I have many.
But still I think I'll have to do it so there we go.

>From a Professor in astronomy in Utrecht (Holland) I received the following data about the Discovery STS 82 :
Depart: 11 Febr.1997 - 03.5600 EST - Cape Kennedy 080W37 - 28N37 - AC 01.04 Cap - MC 16.07 Lib

Looking at the chart my explanation was the following :
The ruler of the 1 st house, Saturn in Fall in the 3 rd in opposition wih Mars Retro in Detriment in the 9 th
gives the state of the Discovery as well as of the voyage, which are not so good as both planets are in bad
aspect with the AC also.

The starting place is the 4 th house, with ruler the bad aspected Mars, which is also the dispositor of the
Moon; one could say there is something not OK with that place nor with the Discovery either.

The object of the voyage is the 10 th house with ruler Venus, which makes a trine with Mars in 9, but
Mars Retro is receding from contact so I thought there will be postponement.

Mercury, ruler of te 9 th is aspected well and that must have been the reason why everything went smoothly
after all. That is easy to say afterwards of course.
But earnestly, would everyone of you have predicted that there would not be any problem ?

Anyhow I thought at the time that all the aspects named above, together with Neptune in the first house and
the last bad aspect of the Moon with that unfortunate that there would be postponement or a earlier return
than expected caused by a minor failure, expecting however that in any case the astronauts would be safe and
well because the 6 th house was unafflicted.

As you all know the Discovery has just landed safely after a succesfull voyage which has of course pleased me
very much.
But I am still not happy with the horary and should like to hear from you what you would have predicted .

TIA

Paul Langeveld (Holland)




Thread: My father
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 02:56:09 -0800

Best of luck to both you and your Dad, Julienne. Hope it works out well.

Regards
Angela



Thread: Medical Astrology
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:25:59 -0800

At 06:03 PM 2/20/97 -0500, TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-02-20 16:57:12 EST, you write:
>
><<
> I've found Jane Ridder-Patrick's "A Handbook of Medical Astrology" (London:
> Penguin/Arakana,1992) to be an excellent overview of Medical Astrology and
> it has another advantage for a person pressed for time: it's short;)
>
>I agree. This is an excellent text and has a nice, very clear chapter on
>horary.
>Tony

I agree too, but last time I tried to get some for my students it was out of
print. I like the 'handbook' and easy reference in it really good to work
with. The Horary is good too. I might ask Arkana if they will be doig a
reprint.

Linda
>
>
>




Thread: My father
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:07:55 -0800
Status: U

Hi All,

A few weeks ago, I asked if you all could help me with a orary about the
possibility of my father coming home.

I just wanted to let you know he came home yesterday.

Thank you...

Julienne




Thread: Medical Astrology
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:03:45 -0800
Status: U

In a message dated 97-02-20 16:57:12 EST, you write:

<<
I've found Jane Ridder-Patrick's "A Handbook of Medical Astrology" (London:
Penguin/Arakana,1992) to be an excellent overview of Medical Astrology and
it has another advantage for a person pressed for time: it's short;)
>>

I agree. This is an excellent text and has a nice, very clear chapter on
horary.
Tony


Thread: China - Deng Xiaoping
From: Gill Norman <sysop@astronet.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:49:18 -0800
Status: U

2/19/97.

China announced the death of Deng Xiaoping - born Aug 22 1904,
at 2.40 am, Beijing time, 18 February '97. There will be 6 days of
mourning. (source: Daily Telegraph, Thurs 19 Feb 1997).

--
Gill Norman Astronet UK BBS
Glastonbury England 51N06 02W42


Thread: Whole Sign Houses
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix4.ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:06:26 -0800
Status: U

> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:08:06 -0500 (EST)
> From: Leviam@aol.com
>
> I am only slightly familiar with the Gauglin data. Was the 9th House peak
> only for sports champions?
>
No. All the sets showed it, although the intensity of the peak varied
somewhat between professions.

Lee
---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: Medical Astrology
From: nmu6970@iac.co.jp (NMU) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:46:22 -0800

>In a message dated 97-02-19 16:25:26 EST, you write:
>
><< From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Calling all Medical Astrologers on this list,
> HELP !!!
> >>
>Patricia,

I've found Jane Ridder-Patrick's "A Handbook of Medical Astrology" (London:
Penguin/Arakana,1992) to be an excellent overview of Medical Astrology and
it has another advantage for a person pressed for time: it's short;)

Good luck!

Warmest Regards,

Neil Urquhart
----------------
You ask me why I live in the grey hills,
I smile but do not answer, for my thoughts are elsewhere.
Like peach petals carried by the stream, they have gone
To other climates, to countries other than the world of men.

Li Po



Thread: Medical Astrology
From: <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 05:44:39 -0800

An Encyclopedia Of Medical Astrology by Harvey Cornell is
also quite good but understand it's alot of reading.



jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>



Thread: Whole Sign Houses
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:31:48 -0800

Hi, Lee,

>> Evidently, whole sign houses do nothing in this case.

Was this whole signs starting from the Asc or from the MC or both? Perhaps
it would make a difference from the MC.


Allen


Thread: Medical Astrology
From: Herman Van Roey <astroX.baldur@glo.be> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:38:24 -0800

At 11:43 +0100 19-02-1997, Patricia Hamilton wrote:
>Calling all Medical Astrologers on this list,
>
>HELP !!!
>

It's not that I consider myself to be a true medical astrologer, but I have
a paramedical formation, and I study - and teach - medical astro now for
about 6 years.
I would advice you to read and study the book "Astrology and the Art of
Healing" by A.T. Mann, which gives an alternative and quite revolutionary
but VERY practical approach to M.A., based upon the developmental timescale
that is reflected in the houses of the horoscope. I one ever may say so
about M.A., this approach is *easy* (well, if you compare to classical
medical astrology, that is ;-)
It may have been reprinted in the mean time, but the book I have was
published in '89 by Unwin paperbacks.

Hope this helps, and wish you success with your talk !

Herman VR.

IAHA! Integratieve Astrologie & Holistisch Advies!
*** Remembering the future,I cannot help wondering
as I stand in eternal now, what the past will bring...***

If you reply by E-mail, don't forget to eliminate the (anti-Spam) X from
the adress <:-)




Thread: Whole Sign Houses
From: Leviam@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:08:18 -0800

Dear Lee,
In a message dated 97-02-19 01:31:40 EST, you write:

>I did a screening with the sports champions, using both tropical and
>sidereal houses. I did not break out diurnal-nocturnal as a
>preliminary screen.
>
>The results in whole sign houses - both tropically and sidereally -
>were poorer than in standard houses. Also, equal house off the Asc did
>not do anything to clarify the 9th House peak.

I am only slightly familiar with the Gauglin data. Was the 9th House peak
only for sports champions?

Thank you.

Levia


Thread: Medical Astrology
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:08:23 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-19 16:25:26 EST, you write:

<< From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Calling all Medical Astrologers on this list,
HELP !!!
>>
Patricia,

If you can get a copy, there is an excellent book called Know Your Type by
Ralph Metzner, Anchor Books, 1979, New York. Chapter 4 is the best
description of astrological typology I have ever read. The author shows the
connections between the 4 humors of ancient Greece, Jungian typology and
astrology.

Tony


Thread: Medical Astrology
From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 02:44:09 -0800

Calling all Medical Astrologers on this list,

HELP !!!

I have been asked to give a talk in a couple of weeks to an Association of
Complementary Therapist. It is expected the audience will be in the region
of 250 to 300 people. GREAT - except, not having a medical background, I
am not a Medical Astrologer. In my practice I deal with the usual personal
charts and problems, and having a business and financial background, I
specialize in in business and financial astrology.

The disciplines represented by this audience will include aromatherapy,
chiropractic, homeopathy, psychotherapy, counselling, hynotherapy,
kinesiology, reiki, nutritional therapy, Alexander technique, metamorphic
technique, reflexology, massage, yoga, spiritual healing, and no doubt
others as well as members of the general public. There are astrological
references for some - but it would be nice to appeal, without getting too
technical, to as many of the disciplines as possible.

Apart from the general history of astrology, one immediately thinks of
Hippocrates, Culpepper, and Jung, in respect of some of the disciplines -
but I am sure there are many other interesting and well known people to whom
I could refer. So if anyone can send me a few astrological hints,
references and anecdotes on the above subjects and/or relevant great names I
would be most grateful.

In anticipation of your feedback - thank you.

Patricia Hamilton



Thread: Re[2]: HOrary Charts
From: "Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 01:54:00 -0800

Thank you for your helpful response. It was good of you to take the
trouble.

Nicholas Grier


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: HOrary Charts
Author: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> at internet-gateway
Date: 14/02/97 01:17


>Message was resent -- Original recipients were:
To:
william_lilly@halcyon.com-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
In a message dated 97-02-13 16:22:58 EST, you write:
>> I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
>> Napier University

Nicholas,

I've given my own opinions in CAPITALS below each of your points.

<< 1. Do you think it is valid to re-ask questions even if you receive a
negative answer the first time ? For instance, if you ask "Will such
and such happen to me ?" do you think that if you receive a negative
answer that means that that answer stands for all time, or do you
think it merely stands until such time as you have altered the
situation by taking further steps towards achieving the desired
result.
I BELIEVE THAT THE ANSWER STANDS UNLESS THERE ARE COMPELLING REASONS TO CAST
ANOTHER CHART.

2. Equally, is it valid to ask "Will such and such happen within the
next two years ?" Can one see that far ahead ? I ask because, for
example, I understand Tarot readers are unlikely to prognosticate that
far ahead, though of ocurse Indian astrologers often prognosticate many
years ahead -with alarming accuracy !
LILLY WAS ABLE TO TELL A WOMAN THAT SHE WOULD NEVER IN HER LIFE HAVE
CHILDREN. IF THERE IS A COMPELLING REASON TO ASK ABOUT A TIME FRAME, THE
CHART OUGHT TO BE VALID FOR THAT TIME FRAME. THE SERIOUSNESS OF INTENT OF
THE QUERENT IS THE ISSUE.

3. Does anyone use parallels and contraparallels in their
interpretations ? Do they work ? Can an intervening parallel impede
success ? What are others' experiences ? IVY JACOBSON AND HER
FOLLOWERS (GILBERT NAVARRO, ETC.) USE PARALLEL AND CLAIM TO GET GOOD
RESULTS.

4. Does anyone, apart from Flamsteed when setting up observatories,
use antiscia ? Do people find that they are indicative of success and
how are they used ? What about contra-antiscia ?
LILLY USED BY ANTISCIA AND CONTRA-ANTISCIA. I FIND THEM USEFUL IN MY
OWN HORARY CHARTS.

5. I am never sure how much attention to pay to semi-sextiles or
quincunxes intervening before a coming together of significators. My
experience is that unless they are with a benign planet they are not
generally indicative of overall success. What do others feel ?
I FIND THAT THE MINOR ASPECTS ARE USUALLY NOT TOO SIGNIFICANT UNLESS THEY ARE
THE ONLY ASPECTS OCCURING BETWEEN SIGNIFICATORS AND ARE FORTIFIED BY OTHER
FACTORS SUCH AS MUTUAL RECEPTIONS, ETC.

6. I know some people do not believe in using the trans-Saturnian
planets, but I do as I do not believe we can turn back the clock. My
experience is that, broadly speaking, one should use traditional
significators except for obviously unsuitable things, so electronic
communication would be ruled by Uranus rather than Mercury. Is this
fair comment ? I also find that where, say, the moon or a significator
makes a hard aspect to a trans-Saturnian planet before there is a union
of significators, the trans-Saturnian planet is more than likely to
deny success. Is that others' views ?
IF YOU DECIDE TO USE TRADITIONAL METHODS, I THINK IT IS BEST TO IGNORE THE
TRANS-STATURNIAN PLANETS. MODERN HORARY TECHIQUES, OF COURSE, USE THEM. I
BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE MANY SYSTEMS OF HORARY ANALYSIS, BUT THAT ONE SHOULD
BE INTERNALLY CONSISTENT AND STICK TO A PARTICULAR SYSTEM WHEN READING A
CHART.

I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
Napier University

HOPE THIS IS USEFUL. I'LL BE INTERESTED TO READ WHAT OTHERS THINK.

TONY




Thread: Fwd: NOTICIAS ASTROLOGICAS
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:03:33 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-18 19:26:01 EST, gracent9@abaforum.es (gracentro=
)
writes:
<< ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimados amigos:
=20
Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
SUMMA ASTROLOGICA, editado por Gracentro en 1996, recuperado y
traducido al castellano.
=20
Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.
=20
Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimados amigos:
=20
Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
LIBRO CONPLIDO EN LOS IUDIZIOS DE LAS ESTRELLAS, editado por Gracentro
en la pasada conjuncion del Sol-Jupiter, recuperado y traducido al
castellano.
=20
Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.
=20
Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimados amigos:
=20
Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
FUNDAMENTOS MAS CIERTOS DE LA ASTROLOGICA, recuperado y traducido al
castellano por Gracentro en 1997.
=20
Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.
=20
Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es
=20
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
From gracent9@abaforum.es Tue Feb 18 19:25:15 1997
Return-Path: gracent9@abaforum.es
CC: TonyLouis@aol.com
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: gracent9@abaforum.es (gracentro)
To: bini@overnet.com.ar (RAFAEL BINI)
CC: pote@bigfoot.com (REGINA CELIA CRUZ), rosemary.dantas@bbs.centroin.co=
m.br
(ROSEMARY DANTAS), rdrodrig@iis.com.br (ROSENDO RODRIGUEZ), cheb5@unm.edu
(STANLEY B HAGYARD), TonyLouis@aol.com (TONY LOUIS), vmfastro@copa.rio.co=
m.br
(VERA MOREIRA FIGUERA), chediv@censsw.gov.ab.ca (VERONICA CHEDIV),
wfalcao@ax.ibase.org.br (WALDEMAR FALCAO), wilton@e-net.com.br (WILTON
CARVALHO)
Date: 97-02-18 19:26:01 EST

Nuestros mejores deseos a todo el movimiento astrologico.

Los pasados dias 15 16 y 17 de Febrero, estuvimos presentes en el
congreso de astrologia de Barcelona, nuestras felicitaciones a la
Asociacion de Astrologia de Catalunya por el magn=EDfico trabajo de
organizacion.

Mas de 150 astrologos de toda Espa=F1a y Europa se dieron cita en esta
extraordinaria reunion.

Destacamos sobre todo las exposiciones de Jesus Lidon con su ponencia
El zodiaco del silencio y la Astro-mundial, la ponencia de Mariano
Aladren sobre la Astrologia en el simbolismo de la Corona de Aragon
y la ponencia de nuestro compa=F1ero Jose Luis Carri=F3n sobre los Cambio=
s
climaticos y sociales del proximo milenio.

En este congreso presentamos con gran exito el LIBRO CONPLIDO DE LOS
IUDIZIOS DE LAS ESTRELLAS traducci=F3n realizada en Toledo en la Corte
de Alfonso X el Sabio, y que Gracentro ha editado en castellano por
primera vez.

Quedamos a la espera de la realizacion del proximo XIV Congreso Iberico
de Astrologia a celebrar en Finestrat (BENIDORM) Alicante los proximos
5,6,7 y 8 de Junio.

Os enviaremos mas informacion cuando la tengamos disponible.

Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Estimados amigos:

Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
SUMMA ASTROLOGICA, editado por Gracentro en 1996, recuperado y
traducido al castellano.

Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.

Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Estimados amigos:

Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
LIBRO CONPLIDO EN LOS IUDIZIOS DE LAS ESTRELLAS, editado por Gracentro
en la pasada conjuncion del Sol-Jupiter, recuperado y traducido al
castellano.

Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.

Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Estimados amigos:

Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
FUNDAMENTOS MAS CIERTOS DE LA ASTROLOGICA, recuperado y traducido al
castellano por Gracentro en 1997.

Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.

Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es




Thread: Follow-up: sale of business
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:03:30 -0800

>An Apology:

My brain went seriously out of gear on this one. It is, of course, a seventh
house matter since the question is about buying and selling and the
stricture regarding the astrologer does not therefore apply.

Best Wishes,
Jonathon

At 17:51 17-02-97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>>
>>I suggest that great care is needed interpreting this chart as there are, I
>>think, big warnings to the "Artist."
>>
>>Mars, as ruler of the seventh, signifies the astrologer. It is retrograde,
>>in its detriment and in the terms of Saturn. This certainly puts it in the
>>category of "unfortunate" in which case Lilly says, "the Artist shall scarce
>>give good judgement." (p. 123 Christian Astrology). Being in the twelfth
>>makes matters worse although this might not invalidate judgement of its own.
>>
>>Regards,
>> Jonathon
>
>I would have thought the ruler of the 7th would have related to the quesited
>rather to the astrologer. But if it casts doubts on the astrologer, perhaps
>I should give the opposite view to the one I have formed, and that would be
>correct! :-) I had read that Saturn's presence in the 7th house would cast
>doubt on the astrologer's judgement, or in the 1st if it relates to a question
>he or she is asking about themselves, but this is not so in this case and
>that is why I thought it safe to "have a go."
>
>If Mars signifies the astrologer, what signifies the buyer of the property?
>I would have thought that Venus would be the seller (querent) and Mars the
>seller,
>
>reagrds,
>
>Joanne
>
>ps I'm waiting for my copy of Christian Astrology to arrive! :-) Then I will
>be able to check your reference.
>
>
>
>>
>> (Although if I cast the chart for the question being asked in
>>>New Zealand the time being Feb., 15, 9:44 am, Daylight saving, NZT Zone -13
>>>174E47 41S18, Wellington, New Zealand - the Ascendant is in 0:Aries and
>>>Saturn is in the first house, which would mean the chart is not suitable
>>>for judgement. So this is a case where the place from which the chart is
>>>taken is very important.)
>>
>>If the chart is to be erected when the astrologer understands the question
>>then I suggest one should take the location of the astrologer.
>>(Jonathon)
>>>
>>>So taking the chart as in Vienna, the querent(seller) is signified by Venus
>>> and the quesited (the buyer) by Mars. There is no aspect between
>>>Venus and Mars, however the Moon trines first Mars and then Venus before it
>>>leaves Gemini, which would suggest that the business would sell within a
>>>year.
>>Timing: since the Moon moves 3.5 degrees in Gemini in the 8th to
>>>trine Mars,
>>> would that mean 3 1/2 months until sale? ALthough it has to move 12 degrees
>>>to trine Venus...
>>>
>>>The business (a garden centre) would come under the 4th house ruled by
>>>Saturn. The Moon sextiles Saturn after moving 3 degrees. Since the business
>>>is owned by a group of friends, would be also perhaps look at the 11th
>>>house which is ruled by the Sun (Leo). The last aspect the Moon makes before
>>>leaving Gemini is a trine to the Sun.
>>>
>>>This all looks quite hopeful to me. BUT, Mars is retrograde in the 12th
>>>house, which would seem to suggest some kind of difficulty with the Buyer.
>>>Mars is also applying to a tight opposition with Saturn in the 6th which
>>>could also slow matters down. Furthermore, Venus is pretty well unaspected
>>>by any other planets although it is applying a trine to the ascendant.
>>>Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing
>>>very well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2.
>>>(according to my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary
>>>strengths.)
>>>
>>>Your comments on the above would be welcome. This business is becoming a
>>>major drain on the energies of all concerned, and everyone wants to sell
>>>it as quickly as possible (for a reasonable price.)
>>>
>>>regards
>>>
>>>Joanne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



Thread: Whole Sign Houses
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix9.ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 19:04:30 -0800
Status: U

Thought the Board might be interested in a question put to me last
weekend by Hank Friedman. He was referred to me, since I have the
Gauquelin professional data available for inquiry. Hank's question
was: are the peaks observed on the cadent sides of the Ascendant
and MC actually a whole-sign house phenomenon, i.e., was the peak
actually angular if whole-sign houses are used?

I did a screening with the sports champions, using both tropical and
sidereal houses. I did not break out diurnal-nocturnal as a
preliminary screen.

The results in whole sign houses - both tropically and sidereally -
were poorer than in standard houses. Also, equal house off the Asc did
not do anything to clarify the 9th House peak.

Evidently, whole sign houses do nothing in this case.
---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: Follow-up: sale of business
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:33:44 -0800

Hi, Joanne,

>> probably it doesn't make much difference to the outcome whether its -9
or -15.

Perhaps not in this chart, but what about other charts?

>> I think they apply the traditional factors, but from the score maybe
they count one thing extra.

I wonder what that is?!

>> Did you get the same scores for the other planets?

Yes, I did.

>> As you suggest, they may have taken a wider orb for the opposition with
Saturn, and I have noticed they do use quite wide orbs.

But even so, I could not come up with -15.


Allen


Thread: Chart rectification
From: Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:22:43 -0800

At 17:28 16-02-97 -0800, you wrote:

>Joanne,
>
>I am very skeptical that a horary chart can tell you the Ascendant of your
>natal chart. My recommendation would be to rectify your chart using
>traditional methods, testing it carefully against transits and progressions
>for major events in your life.
>
>Best Wishes,
>Tony
>

I too was sceptical, and was surprised by the plausable result. I just tried
9:46 Cancer for my wedding, and it resulted in Saturn and Neptune being
conjunct the
Desc. within a degree and Jupiter (retrograde) conjunct the Asc. The Moon was
conjunct the MC. Could be a direct hit!
One of my problems with the rectification is trying to dissociate the effects of
transits to the planets from the houses. However, the above seemed to work.

cheers

Joanne



Thread: Chart rectification
From: Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:23:34 -0800

I may write to them,

cheers,
Joanne

At 21:43 16-02-97 -0500, you wrote:
>Did you try hospital records it might be on microfish of the time you were
>born It wasn't on my birth certificate either but the hospital had a record
>of time
>
>
>Rodger
>
>



Thread: Follow-up: sale of business
From: Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:22:09 -0800

I'd have to check with them what factors they use, but probably it doesn't
make much difference to the outcome whether its -9 or -15. I think they
apply the traditional factors, but from the score maybe they count one
thing extra. Did you get the same scores for the other planets? AS you
suggest, they may have taken a wider orb for the opposition with Saturn,
and I have noticed they do use quite wide orbs. I have checked Matrix's
computations against those of a traditional horary astrologer, and also
found some minor discrepanies, but not really enough to raise questions
in my mind about the outcome,

cheers,

Joanne


At 23:08 16-02-97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi, Joanne,
>
>>> I received the question 14 Feb 1997 at 9:44pm CET, 16E20' 48N13'
>
>Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing very
>well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2, (according to
>my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary strengths.)
>
>I get -9 for Mars:
>
>-5 in 12th house
>+2 oriental
>+5 not combust
>+4 exact trine to Jupiter (same degree)
>-5 detriment
>-5 peregrine
>-5 retrograde
>---- ----------------
>-9 total
>
>Mars is not exactly (same degree) opposite Saturn as Mars is at 5 Lib 25
>and Saturn is at 4 Ari 59. Even if Mars were, then that would bring the
>total to -13. With Jupiter at 5 Aqu 39, even if you did not feel that was
>an exact trine, then the score would be -17.
>
>I wonder how Matrix gets -15? Just checking.
>
>
>Allen
>
>



Thread: Follow-up: sale of business
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:53:01 -0800

>Dear All,
>
>I wrote earlier for some help on a horary inquiry where it was not
>clear who the querent was and the time of the question. Well, on
>the advice of one of the members of this list I asked the querent
>to call me so I could be sure who the querent was and the time of the
>question. As a beginner please bear with me (and hopefully
>help me out!) These are the details of the question:
>
>Will the garden center business sell within a year?
>
>I received the question in Vienna Feb., 14 1997 at 9:44pm CET
>ZONE -1, 16E20' 48N13'
>
>In this case, it would seem that none of the strictures against judgement
>would apply.

I suggest that great care is needed interpreting this chart as there are, I
think, big warnings to the "Artist."

Mars, as ruler of the seventh, signifies the astrologer. It is retrograde,
in its detriment and in the terms of Saturn. This certainly puts it in the
category of "unfortunate" in which case Lilly says, "the Artist shall scarce
give good judgement." (p. 123 Christian Astrology). Being in the twelfth
makes matters worse although this might not invalidate judgement of its own.

Regards,
Jonathon

(Although if I cast the chart for the question being asked in
>New Zealand the time being Feb., 15, 9:44 am, Daylight saving, NZT Zone -13
>174E47 41S18, Wellington, New Zealand - the Ascendant is in 0:Aries and
>Saturn is in the first house, which would mean the chart is not suitable
>for judgement. So this is a case where the place from which the chart is
>taken is very important.)

If the chart is to be erected when the astrologer understands the question
then I suggest one should take the location of the astrologer.
(Jonathon)
>
>So taking the chart as in Vienna, the querent(seller) is signified by Venus
> and the quesited (the buyer) by Mars. There is no aspect between
>Venus and Mars, however the Moon trines first Mars and then Venus before it
>leaves Gemini, which would suggest that the business would sell within a
>year.
Timing: since the Moon moves 3.5 degrees in Gemini in the 8th to
>trine Mars,
> would that mean 3 1/2 months until sale? ALthough it has to move 12 degrees
>to trine Venus...
>
>The business (a garden centre) would come under the 4th house ruled by
>Saturn. The Moon sextiles Saturn after moving 3 degrees. Since the business
>is owned by a group of friends, would be also perhaps look at the 11th
>house which is ruled by the Sun (Leo). The last aspect the Moon makes before
>leaving Gemini is a trine to the Sun.
>
>This all looks quite hopeful to me. BUT, Mars is retrograde in the 12th
>house, which would seem to suggest some kind of difficulty with the Buyer.
>Mars is also applying to a tight opposition with Saturn in the 6th which
>could also slow matters down. Furthermore, Venus is pretty well unaspected
>by any other planets although it is applying a trine to the ascendant.
>Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing
>very well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2.
>(according to my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary
>strengths.)
>
>Your comments on the above would be welcome. This business is becoming a
>major drain on the energies of all concerned, and everyone wants to sell
>it as quickly as possible (for a reasonable price.)
>
>regards
>
>Joanne
>
>
>
>



Thread: Follow-up: sale of business
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:09:17 -0800
Status: U

Hi, Joanne,

>> I received the question 14 Feb 1997 at 9:44pm CET, 16E20' 48N13'

Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing very
well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2, (according to
my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary strengths.)

I get -9 for Mars:

-5 in 12th house
+2 oriental
+5 not combust
+4 exact trine to Jupiter (same degree)
-5 detriment
-5 peregrine
-5 retrograde
---- ----------------
-9 total

Mars is not exactly (same degree) opposite Saturn as Mars is at 5 Lib 25
and Saturn is at 4 Ari 59. Even if Mars were, then that would bring the
total to -13. With Jupiter at 5 Aqu 39, even if you did not feel that was
an exact trine, then the score would be -17.

I wonder how Matrix gets -15? Just checking.


Allen


Thread: Chart rectification
From: RGrable604@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:44:04 -0800
Status: U

Did you try hospital records it might be on microfish of the time you were
born It wasn't on my birth certificate either but the hospital had a record
of time


Rodger


Thread: Chart rectification
From: "Carol A.Wiggers" <cwiggers@halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:35:06 -0800


Love & Light
Carol
cwiggers@halcyon.com
http://www.horary.com
JustUs & Associates
1420 NW Gilman Blvd., Suite #2154
Issaquah, WA 98027-7001 USA
Phone (206)391-8371 Fax (206)392-1919
Horary, Electional, Predictive and Natal Correspondence Courses
The Horary Practitioner and The Traditional Astrologer Magazines
Rare Astrology Books republished in modern print, such as William Lilly,
Partridge, Gadbury, Griffin, Bonatus, Ramesey, Coley, etc.
Career Reports and Career Report Software Available
Astrology Software: Astrowin, Horary Helper for Windows, Electional Helper for Windows, Astroclock, etc.


-----Original Message-----
From: TonyLouis@aol.com [SMTP:TonyLouis@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 1997 4:23 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: chart rectification

Joanne,

I am very skeptical that a horary chart can tell you the Ascendant of your
natal chart. My recommendation would be to rectify your chart using
traditional methods, testing it carefully against transits and progressions
for major events in your life.

Best Wishes,
Tony




Thread: Follow-up: sale of business
From: Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:50:51 -0800

Dear All,

I wrote earlier for some help on a horary inquiry where it was not
clear who the querent was and the time of the question. Well, on
the advice of one of the members of this list I asked the querent
to call me so I could be sure who the querent was and the time of the
question. As a beginner please bear with me (and hopefully
help me out!) These are the details of the question:

Will the garden center business sell within a year?

I received the question in Vienna Feb., 14 1997 at 9:44pm CET
ZONE -1, 16E20' 48N13'

In this case, it would seem that none of the strictures against judgement
would apply. (Although if I cast the chart for the question being asked in
New Zealand the time being Feb., 15, 9:44 am, Daylight saving, NZT Zone -13
174E47 41S18, Wellington, New Zealand - the Ascendant is in 0:Aries and
Saturn is in the first house, which would mean the chart is not suitable
for judgement. So this is a case where the place from which the chart is
taken is very important.)

So taking the chart as in Vienna, the querent(seller) is signified by Venus
and the quesited (the buyer) by Mars. There is no aspect between
Venus and Mars, however the Moon trines first Mars and then Venus before it
leaves Gemini, which would suggest that the business would sell within a
year. Timing: since the Moon moves 3.5 degrees in Gemini in the 8th to
trine Mars,
would that mean 3 1/2 months until sale? ALthough it has to move 12 degrees
to trine Venus...

The business (a garden centre) would come under the 4th house ruled by
Saturn. The Moon sextiles Saturn after moving 3 degrees. Since the business
is owned by a group of friends, would be also perhaps look at the 11th
house which is ruled by the Sun (Leo). The last aspect the Moon makes before
leaving Gemini is a trine to the Sun.

This all looks quite hopeful to me. BUT, Mars is retrograde in the 12th
house, which would seem to suggest some kind of difficulty with the Buyer.
Mars is also applying to a tight opposition with Saturn in the 6th which
could also slow matters down. Furthermore, Venus is pretty well unaspected
by any other planets although it is applying a trine to the ascendant.
Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing
very well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2.
(according to my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary
strengths.)

Your comments on the above would be welcome. This business is becoming a
major drain on the energies of all concerned, and everyone wants to sell
it as quickly as possible (for a reasonable price.)

regards

Joanne




Thread: Chart rectification
From: Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:50:49 -0800


Recently I have become obsessed with the idea that my mother gave me the wrong
time for my birth. This is important because an a keen amateur astrologer I
and always calculating transits and progressions to various houses. I asked
her to again confirm the time but she couldn't remember.
She said she went to the hospital in the small hours of the morning and I was
born "well before breakfast." We don't put birth times on the certificate,
in New Zealand unfortunately, unlike in the US.

Originally she had given me the time as 1:55 am NZT, 21 September 1958,
Gisborne, New Zealand. Using deduction, and checking against some life events
I eventually decided that the birth time was probably 2:36 am NZT, giving an
ascendant of 15:21 Cancer. (One look at me and you can see I have a Cancer
asc.)

HOWEVER, I was just reading in a book on horary that sometimes when people
don't know their exact birth time, you can do a chart for the moment they
ask and use the degree on the Asc. as possibly the same as the actual time.
I felt a bit sceptical about this, but tried it for the time I asked the
question
"what was the degree on my ascendant when I was born?". To my surprise I
received a plausible answer. The degree on the Ascendant was 2:46 Cancer,
which would have translated to 1:45 am, only 10 minutes before the time my
mother originally gave me. (ie 16 Feb. 1997, 12:24 pm CET, Vienna, Austria)

Does any one have any experience with this, or comments to make? I'm going to
try checking the new possible ascendant against my marriage date: 12 November
1989, Wellington, New Zealand at 10:30 am. The other special date is when I
arrived in Vienna 31 August 1992.

regards,

Joanne



Thread: HOrary Charts
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:58:29 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-13 16:22:58 EST, you write:
>> I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
>> Napier University

Nicholas,

I've given my own opinions in CAPITALS below each of your points.

<< 1. Do you think it is valid to re-ask questions even if you receive a
negative answer the first time ? For instance, if you ask "Will such
and such happen to me ?" do you think that if you receive a negative
answer that means that that answer stands for all time, or do you
think it merely stands until such time as you have altered the
situation by taking further steps towards achieving the desired
result.
I BELIEVE THAT THE ANSWER STANDS UNLESS THERE ARE COMPELLING REASONS TO CAST
ANOTHER CHART.

2. Equally, is it valid to ask "Will such and such happen within the
next two years ?" Can one see that far ahead ? I ask because, for
example, I understand Tarot readers are unlikely to prognosticate that
far ahead, though of ocurse Indian astrologers often prognosticate
many years ahead -with alarming accuracy !
LILLY WAS ABLE TO TELL A WOMAN THAT SHE WOULD NEVER IN HER LIFE HAVE
CHILDREN. IF THERE IS A COMPELLING REASON TO ASK ABOUT A TIME FRAME, THE
CHART OUGHT TO BE VALID FOR THAT TIME FRAME. THE SERIOUSNESS OF INTENT OF
THE QUERENT IS THE ISSUE.

3. Does anyone use parallels and contraparallels in their
interpretations ? Do they work ? Can an intervening parallel impede
success ? What are others' experiences ? IVY JACOBSON AND HER
FOLLOWERS (GILBERT NAVARRO, ETC.) USE PARALLEL AND CLAIM TO GET GOOD
RESULTS.

4. Does anyone, apart from Flamsteed when setting up observatories,
use antiscia ? Do people find that they are indicative of success and
how are they used ? What about contra-antiscia ?
LILLY USED BY ANTISCIA AND CONTRA-ANTISCIA. I FIND THEM USEFUL IN MY
OWN HORARY CHARTS.

5. I am never sure how much attention to pay to semi-sextiles or
quincunxes intervening before a coming together of significators. My
experience is that unless they are with a benign planet they are not
generally indicative of overall success. What do others feel ?
I FIND THAT THE MINOR ASPECTS ARE USUALLY NOT TOO SIGNIFICANT UNLESS THEY ARE
THE ONLY ASPECTS OCCURING BETWEEN SIGNIFICATORS AND ARE FORTIFIED BY OTHER
FACTORS SUCH AS MUTUAL RECEPTIONS, ETC.

6. I know some people do not believe in using the trans-Saturnian
planets, but I do as I do not believe we can turn back the clock. My
experience is that, broadly speaking, one should use traditional
significators except for obviously unsuitable things, so electronic
communication would be ruled by Uranus rather than Mercury. Is this
fair comment ? I also find that where, say, the moon or a significator
makes a hard aspect to a trans-Saturnian planet before there is a
union of significators, the trans-Saturnian planet is more than likely
to deny success. Is that others' views ?
IF YOU DECIDE TO USE TRADITIONAL METHODS, I THINK IT IS BEST TO IGNORE THE
TRANS-STATURNIAN PLANETS. MODERN HORARY TECHIQUES, OF COURSE, USE THEM. I
BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE MANY SYSTEMS OF HORARY ANALYSIS, BUT THAT ONE SHOULD
BE INTERNALLY CONSISTENT AND STICK TO A PARTICULAR SYSTEM WHEN READING A
CHART.

I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
Napier University

HOPE THIS IS USEFUL. I'LL BE INTERESTED TO READ WHAT OTHERS THINK.

TONY


Thread: HOrary Charts
From: "Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:43:09 -0800

Dear Carol
I have been given your name by Deborah Houlding to whom I had written
suggesting various matters which I thought might be worth airing in
her excelllent magazine.
She suggested, however, that your discussion group might be a more
suitable venue, and she kindly gave me your email address.

The matters I raised with her are various technical questions
concerning horary questions. I should be interested in your and any
one else's views.

1. Do you think it is valid to re-ask questions even if you receive a
negative answer the first time ? For instance, if you ask "Will such
and such happen to me ?" do you think that if you receive a negative
answer that means that that answer stands for all time, or do you
think it merely stands until such time as you have altered the
situation by taking further steps towards achieving the desired
result.

2. Equally, is it valid to ask "Will such and such happen within the
next two years ?" Can one see that far ahead ? I ask because, for
example, I understand Tarot readers are unlikely to prognosticate that
far ahead, though of ocurse Indian astrologers often prognosticate
many years ahead -with alarming accuracy !

3. Does anyone use parallels and contraparallels in their
interpretations ? Do they work ? Can an intervening parallel impede
success ? What are others' experiences ?

4. Does anyone, apart from Flamsteed when setting up observatories,
use antiscia ? Do people find that they are indicative of success and
how are they used ? What about contra-antiscia ?

5. I am never sure how much attention to pay to semi-sextiles or
quincunxes intervening before a coming together of significators. My
experience is that unless they are with a benign planet they are not
generally indicative of overall success. What do others feel ?

6. I know some people do not believe in using the trans-Saturnian
planets, but I do as I do not believe we can turn back the clock. My
experience is that, broadly speaking, one should use traditional
significators except for obviously unsuitable things, so electronic
communication would be ruled by Uranus rather than Mercury. Is this
fair comment ? I also find that where, say, the moon or a significator
makes a hard aspect to a trans-Saturnian planet before there is a
union of significators, the trans-Saturnian planet is more than likely
to deny success. Is that others' views ?

I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
Napier University



Thread: Third party questions
From: RGrable604@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:04:16 -0800

Hi Pat,
Joy hearing from you. As far as missing party is concern according the
Lilly and Coley the Ascendany and ruler is aways used if you do no know the
person it futher states if you know the person as an aquaintance use the
Seventh or if it is a friend the 11 Please exlain about third party
questions and I'll try to answer but these rules are for the classic thanks
again for writing

love
Rodger


Thread: Third party questions
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:40:22 -0800

Dear Sue,

Many thanks for your discussion on significators for "strangers" re: house
rulerships - much appreciated, as always.

I have done quite a few missing persons charts and found Lilly's use of
Ascendant for the missing person to work very well in forecasting whether
the person will be found alive or not and even the location. However, I
think it was Osmar who suggested that the 9th would be very effective but I
haven't had the time to try this out with my missing persons questions, yet.
But isn't a missing person question a third party question, in that you are
seeking information about someone and putting them on the first house with
you as querent? In this instance, the significator would describe you and
the missing person in the same way unless, by placing the missing person on
the first you displaced yourself to the 7th ...... Where does the astrologer
go in a missing person question and where does the querent go in a third
party question according to describing significators?

Love,



Pat.



Thread: Update mailinglists
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:29:31 -0800

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

NEWSGROUPS
==========

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(32N43 117W09).
For astrological ADVERTISING!

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(The "International Congress Agenda" is posted
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MAILINGLISTS
============

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Love,
Tees
---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---


Thread: Solving the Unabomber Mystery with Astrology
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:36:43 -0800

I thought the members of the list would enjoy this post by Roger Satterlee
who discovered the alleged Unabomber's birthdate using his knowledge of
astrology.
I am quite impressed by his insight. He reasoned that the Unabomber must
have Jupiter in Gemini because of his insistent need to publicize his ideas
in his voluminous manifesto. He then looked for close Saturn/Uranus aspects
because of the theme of frustration (Saturn) with technology (Uranus). He
placed the sun (personal sense of identiy) in close aspect to the
Saturn/Uranus conjunction and came up with the date 5/22/42 on his first try.
This is the date of Ted Koczynski's birth. Rather remarkable. Below is
Roger's post briefly explaining his method. This is astrology at its best.

Best Wishes,

Tony
===========
In a message dated 97-02-01 15:49:44 EST, roger9@ix.netcom.com (Roger L.
Satterlee) writes:
<<
I became interested in the Unabomber case when all the media focused on
the Times publication of his manifesto.
Because I have been making what seems a natural progression from sun
sign astrology's broad catagories to the more intimate veiw of people as
distinctly patterned individuals, I have sought for a means to appreciate
the individual behaviors of persons and then link astrology's symbols those
rather specific behaviors. The idea is similar to a refinement of such
things as graphology, I suppose, but much more detailed...sometimes...:)
It seems people best identify themselves when they use their
creativity; any creative turn of a phrase, or projected image, is a 'poetry'
of sorts and has its roots in the same patterns of symbols we find developed
in the art of astrology. For instance, when Melville's Ahab nails a gold
coin at the bottom of a mast in Moby Dick, this creates an image which is
essentially a gold circle at the bottom of a verticle line; futher, this
circle represents a reward for anyone sighting 'the whale'--the top of the
mast is where one can best see a whale in the distance. Well this more or
less confirms the natal pattern we find in Melvilles case--Sun H4 opp Jup
H10.
Having read many books and viewed many more paintings with an eye for
these connections, these parallels of self symbolism, I think there are more
such assoiations to be cataloged in this way (that is why I compared it to
graphology...the search is similar, cataloging shapes and positionings of
'objects' which have little meaning by themselves).

The Unabomber was very prolific but not too generous with creative
passages: though I do not profess to know what forensic psychologists look
for, exactly, I suspect they would often miss the astological parallels due
to their lack of astrology's symbol 'vocabulary' As an aside, I simply
accept that Jung and Campbell were not wrong about the near universal
employment of circles, crosses, etc., across cultures--the meaning of a
circle is not defined mere social convention alone. I wondered where did
"FC", as he presented himself, use symbols I could access as astrological
parallels: I compare compare the two arts--writing, and horoscopy.
The best 'artistic' expressions of the fictional character FC should
have astrological equivalents just as Melville's Ahab, or even a pop culture
expression like Chubby Checker and his 'twist'(see Sat conj Ura, '41-42).
There seems to exist in persons a penchant for purely symbolic vocabulary
which is adapted to culture; and this happens, if for no other reason,
simply because we are human. So, where did this person employ a circle, for
instance, 'artistically': or, as well, as John Douglas would put it, what
did he do that wasn't necessary--this could be part of a 'signature' (for my
purposes an astrological pattern with is a kind of signature--perhaps a
birthdate).
Late in the manifesto, FC makes an analogy or at least projects a
visual image which employs a circle. He states that men are a hazard to our
environ and that even if primitive or isolated they would again start to
regain technology, or something to that effect. His *reasoning* I simply
ignored: his mental picture was his signature, his poem, his painting, his
sculpture, etc.. He stated that it would be necessary for men to dam a
stream and build a water wheel to generate electricity even to power the
small shops of tradesmen--then he said this could not be done because they
would probably not have enough copper wire. The image of twisted coils of
wire in a circle and their not being available introduced Sun, Neptune,
Uranus, Saturn, and most likely Mars as the red metal.
I thought about what damming a steam could be as a Saturn restriction
of a flowing stream (Neptune); it had to be a Sat/Nep aspect which
incorporate Ura with an equal measure of importance.
Being that only a few occasions arose for major aspect like this, the
conjuntion of Sat/Ura--'no electricity--had to be a trine to Neptune for
there were no other major aspects available in the man's age range.
This I saw I could place Jupiter in Gemini as a need to publish his
'wisdom'. Jupiter in Gemini worked for a number of reasons and that this
yeilds two different possible years, 1942 or 1953.
Though I first set up a chart using Astrolog and placed the Sun
conjunct Sat/Ura 5/22/42, I will tell you now I made the mistake of
accepting the younger man based only on the false lead of the published
sketch. The drawing seem to indicate the younger man so I had to chose
between Sat conj Ura, '42, or Sat conj Nep, '53' the main difference being
the role of Jupiter--Gemini seemed right but was it trine or square in its
relationship to Nep.
So my first try on my screen was 5/22/42, but I let the opinion of
others drift into my considerations, I opted to search for a patteren based
on the Juipter position.
The date about, 7/2753, offered Jupiter in Gemini (which I wanted to
hold constant regardless) gives a figure where Saturn could be conj Nep and
square Ura. These two year patterns are the only ones I considered. Because
The sun needs be involved in this aspect figure, I also briefly considered
Sun conj Sat/Nept in '53.
So, I had a total of three charts, and for reasons yet unknown to me,
ignored my primary image--The Sun conj Sat/Ura...Gosh, I hate it when I do
something this stupid...and I may never get a chance to do this sort of
thing again. My mistake was about the apparent need for something more
explosive in the chart...It seemed people wanted to see Sun or Moon /Plu
when I talked to them about these charts...big mistake, I'll not listen
again...:)

Best wishes,

Rog

PS I forgot to mention that I really thought the most poetic image was the
idea of a pipe bomb in book called "Ice Brothers"-- this matches my
original 5/22/42 guess perfectly... I truly think I'm self-defeating...:)

roger9@ix.netcom.com
11:53PM EDT 26Jul50 76W48 42N06
http://www.netcom.com/~roger9/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7406



Thread: House rulerships
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:12:59 -0800

>Dear Sue,
>
>Many thanks for your observations on 1st and 7th houses. In CA, p154, 4th
>para. Lilly advises that if the person is a stranger to the querent, "to
>whom she had no relation" then the 7th signifies that person.

Yes, this is a sticky phrase, but I suspect it's semantics again. For
starters, why would anyone ask if a person was at home if they had no
dealings with them? I suppose there might be occasions when this is true,
but how rare? And besides you will be making a relationship with them, else
you wouldn't be asking the question. Later in that paragraph, referring to
the quesited party he says: "...to whom she would speak...". This surely
implies a relationship in the present or in the future, as you might assume
in a house sale chart. The buyer is usually a stranger to you, but becomes a
7th house matter because of that relationship, even though you might not yet
have found a buyer, as in: will I sell my house. Even these days, there is
still contact between the two parties, albeit often indirect.

>I have taken the 1st for the significator of someone I don't know if I am
>"in sympathy" with them. This seems to work but in the case of John Hume I
>wondered about his "leadership" position possibly indicating he should come
>under another category. Perhaps it is important to reflect on the degree of
>identification one might have with a person not known to one and not
>directly classified as one's own leader in order to define whether it is
>strong enough to denote that the 1st is the most appropriate house. As

I understand this argument, but as with everything else in horary it can be
taken too far. This identification of the querent with the quesited is valid
up to a point. The sorts of charts I've had where this seems to work best is
when the querent has the quesited's 'permission' to ask. For example, in the
rules on signification in illness questions. At one time I had a few
questions from a social worker who was in charge of a case of child abuse.
The child was the social worker's business, and she was like a guardian for
that child. Here she could ask a question perhaps on the child's behalf, but
also as an *effective* interested party. I underline 'effective' because
this is usually the clue to clear third party questions. If you can affect
the situation and/or it has a direct and personal effect on you then you
probably have a right to ask and thus will receive an answer.

The infamous 'bottom line' is that you must secure any significator through
it's description. Lilly used physical and temperament descriptions to
justify his choice, we do this very, very little.

I'd be very interested to hear other people's views on third party
questions, ie. questions that do not directly relate to the querent's life.
I have to say that I have rarely seen a clear chart result from these
questions and I wonder if the astrologer runs the risk of committing the
worst of all crimes: interference in someone else's life.

Sincerely

Sue


The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Per Minute charges on phone lines filed with the FCC
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:00:27 -0800

Dear Carol,

I hope you guys are doing better. Enclosed is important information, please
spread the word so we can continue to afford internet use!

love,
dorothy
>Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:44:11 -0800 (PST)
>From: MCN Business Manager <mcn@mcn.org>
>To: dstar
>Subject: Per Minute charges on phone lines filed with the FCC
>
>The FCC is currently reviewing a matter which may directly effect you,
>an MCN customer and Internet user. I'm forwarding you the following
>message for your information. You may also wish to read the Reuters
>news article at:
>
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7723,4000.html?latest
>
>
>"Hi from Tim (Badge) on IRC Cops I am writing you this to inform you
>of a very important matter currently under review by the FCC. Your local
>telephone company has filed a proposal with the FCC to impose per
>minute charges for your internet service. They contend that your usage
>has or will hinder the operation of the telephone network. It is our belief
>that internet usage will diminish if users were required to pay additional
>per minute charges. The FCC has created an email box for your comments,
>responses must be received by February 13, 1997. Send your comments
>to isp@fcc.gov and tell them what you think. Every phone company is in
>on this one, and they are trying to sneak it in just under the wire for
>litiagation."
>
>Please send email to the following address clearly stating your opinion
>about this issue:
>
>
>isp@fcc.gov
>
>
>Rennie Innis
>MCN Business Manager
>
>



Thread: House rulerships
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:46:11 -0800

Dear Sue,

Many thanks for your observations on 1st and 7th houses. In CA, p154, 4th
para. Lilly advises that if the person is a stranger to the querent, "to
whom she had no relation" then the 7th signifies that person.

I have taken the 1st for the significator of someone I don't know if I am
"in sympathy" with them. This seems to work but in the case of John Hume I
wondered about his "leadership" position possibly indicating he should come
under another category. Perhaps it is important to reflect on the degree of
identification one might have with a person not known to one and not
directly classified as one's own leader in order to define whether it is
strong enough to denote that the 1st is the most appropriate house. As
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the British Government is the Government
of Northern Ireland and so John Hume is a leader of an opposition party to
the government of the country in which I live. Many thanks for the
valuable responses. It has been very interesting to hear everyone else's
approaches and also much appreciated.

May I ask another question? If the question is about enrolments on a course
provided by a school in higher education are those enrolments counted as
"students" or "income" and which house would they come under? I am taking
the 9th for the school, itself on the basis that I, as querent, am, in the
main, a voluntary worker for the school so do not see it as my employer even
though I receive a nominal sum for some duties.

Look forward to hearing from everyone again.

Regards to all,

Pat.



Thread: House rulerships
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:21:22 -0800

I agree with Dorothy's use of the 1st - the 7th usually, if not always,
implies a relationship with the querent, no matter how weak or transient.
The 7th has come to be called 'the house of the other', but this is really
an abbreviation for '...the other with whom the querent is in relationship
with'. I think that the reason the 7th has been used for so long as the
stranger is that as an angle it must always be important in any chart.
Perhaps this is how it has managed to show itself as prominent in such charts.

Sue

>>example. But if the person is not missing but is simply absent and is not a
>>relative or friend or is not someone who can be categorised as a leader,
>
>I take the 1st house rulership for those I have no personal attachment to, as
>you say, following "Lilly's example". This works much better for me.
>
>>I've seen other horary practitioners take the seventh house for that person.
>>If the person was an open enemy or opposing the querent in the matter then
>>the 7th house would also be taken.
>
>But then you have a personal attachment, you dislike or oppose, or hate this
>person. So the person has a function, he/she is your enemy.
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: ASTROWIN 1.50
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:57:35 -0800

Is it possible to get updates for existing versions of Astrowin?

Regards

Angela



Thread: Post to horary list, please
From: allen edwall <76401.275@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:03:22 -0800

Hi, Angela,

>> your definitions do make sense, but I would say from a 'modernistic'
view point - and I think the whole discussion tended to revolve around
Lilly's point of view and how people interpreted his words.

But we need to understand the principle he was trying to teach over and
above the words he used (especially since his words are what's causing
everyone's problem). I believe I explained things in a traditional way as
well as in a more modern way. That was my intent anyway.

>> In essence, what is implied by CA? Personally, I do agree with you, but
the question is, did Lilly?

That's what nobody seems to know or to be able to agree on. So I figured
out what made sense to me yet breaks none of what I understand Lilly to
mean. Everyone can decide for themselves where the Truth lies.


Allen


Thread: Void of course Moon
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:20:34 -0800

you wrote:
>Hi Dorothy, thanks for a very apt interpretation of VOC Moon, however,
wouldn't
>the fact that Moon sextiles Mars before leaving her sign of Gemini also

>show the operation which would ultimately be necessary?

Hi Angela,
Yes that is what happened. Deb had reason to take me to task for
oversimplifying. She has a valid point when she says, "I personally dislike
is the strict adherence to technical 'limits' at the risk of considering the
chart as a whole." What I think your describing, is the commonly understood
view of a void Moon, in that the Moon is NOT Void because it will sextile
Mars. However, Mars changes signs before this takes place, so looking at it
from your point of veiw the Moon refrains from perfecting the sextile.

What I was trying to show, albeit too briefly, was that the Moon could be
void and yet make an aspect while in the same sign. Since the Moon was not
in moiety of any planet, AT THE TIME THE QUESTION WAS ASKED, the Moon was void.

So what's a moiety, this is very simplified, please read Sue Ward's article
in the Horary Practioner, Issue 4 pge5. According to Websters International
Dictionary, moiety means one of two equal parts. "Moeity is half the
traditional orb of a planet." (Sue Ward Horary Practioner #4) Below are the
moeities of the planets according to William Lilly(CA107).

Moeity
5 Saturn 5
6 Jupiter 6
3 45' Mars 3 45'
8 30' Sun 8 30'
4 Venus 4
3 30' Mercury 3 30'
6 15' Moon 6 15'

The type of V/C Moon, I saw in the will the baby turn chart, was what Allen
Edwall succinctly describes in his cojent recent post as Void Moon"Case 2 -
Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the same sign BUT the Moon is
NOT already within orb to said planet."

AT THE TIME OF THE QUESTION, the Moon is not in moiety of aspect to any
planet. The Moon has a moiety of 6degrees and 15 minutes in iether
direction, that is she sends her influence forward toward anything 6degrees
and 15' ahead of her or vice versa. The Moon at the time of the question is
at 14Gemini7, adding 6degrees15' to the Moon, you get 20 Gemini22'. This is
as far forward as the Moon's influence goes. Mars has a moiety in eithr
direction of 3degrees and 45'. Mars is at 29leo 38' subtracting 3 degrees
and 45' and you get 25degrees53'. So Mars' casts his influence back to
25degrees53'. AT THE TIME OF THE QUESTION. The Moon is shy of being within
moiety of the sextile aspect to Mars, and therefore, it was to my way of
thinking, the Moon did not aspect Mars.

Hope this makes the #2 v/c moon more clear.
Fondly,
Dorothy



Thread: Post to horary list, please
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:58:06 -0800

Hi Allen, yes, your definitions do make sense, but I would say from a
'modernistic' view point - and I think the whole discussion tended to revolve
around Lilly's point of view and how people interpreted his words. In
essence, what is implied by CA. Personally, I do agree with you, but the
question is, did Lilly?

Regards

Angela



Thread: Post to horary list, please
From: allen edwall <76401.275@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:07:22 -0800

Howdy, all,

It seems to me that we are getting lost in all this definition stuff for
void of course Moon. No matter what your definition there are four cases we
have to worry about.

Case 1 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the same sign and
the Moon is already within orb to said planet.

Case 2 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the same sign BUT
the Moon is NOT already within orb to said planet.

Case 3 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the NEXT sign and
the Moon is already within orb to said planet.

Case 4 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the NEXT sign BUT
the Moon is NOT already within orb to said planet and will not be within
orb until after the Moon changes sign.

Ok.

For case 1 interpretation - Some action will occur relatively quickly based
upon the nature of the planet the Moon is aspecting and also the type of
aspect (Moon already within orb).

For case 2 interpretation - NO action will occur for some time, but then
some action will occur based upon the nature of the planet the Moon is
aspecting and also the type of aspect (action occurs when Moon gets within
orb).

For case 3 interpretation - Some action will occur relatively quickly based
upon the nature of the planet the Moon is aspecting and also the type of
aspect BUT something will first change (Moon changing signs) before that
action occurs.

For case 4 interpretation - This is probably true VOC because nothing will
happen, then some change will occur that changes the whole result regarding
the original question.

>From a logical point of view the above seems to break no rule or guideline
and we have preserved the PRINICPLE of a void of course body without
getting lost in definitions and rhetoric.

Does this make sense to anyone? I think it does to me.


Allen


Thread: House rulerships
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:46:30 -0800

At 07:26 PM 2/3/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>I'd like, now, to have some feedback on rulerships. For example, when I ask
>questions about missing persons I take the first house as per Lilly's
>example. But if the person is not missing but is simply absent and is not a
>relative or friend or is not someone who can be categorised as a leader,

I take the 1st house rulership for those I have no personal attachment to, as
you say, following "Lilly's example". This works much better for me.

>I've seen other horary practitioners take the seventh house for that person.
>If the person was an open enemy or opposing the querent in the matter then
>the 7th house would also be taken.

But then you have a personal attachment, you dislike or oppose, or hate this
person. So the person has a function, he/she is your enemy.

>Now, suppose I want to ask a question about John Hume, the leader of the
>SDLP (a political party) in Northern Ireland. Do I take the 10th because he
>is a "leader" - even though not of the party in power?

My tendency here, and mind you, I am only speaking for myself, if are not
from Northern Ireland, then he is not your opposition leader. Therefore, you
have little or no attachment to the outcome, I would choose the Ascendent
ruler. However, since I am a native of the USA, if I to ask a question
regarding Newt Gingrich, the Republican speaker of the House, I would use
the ruler of the 4th house because he is the opposition leader to the
president. Clinton as my president is signified by the ruler of the 10th(CA55).

> Or do I, because I
>identify with him, take the Ascendant as representing him? If he were not
>the leader of a party but an ordinary person with whom I identified but who
>did not know me, would I take the Ascendant then or, because there is no
>relationship, would I take the 7th?

Again, if I really have no attachment to the person, or cannot classify them
as, president, boss, etc, then I chose the 1st house. Less confusion for me.
I have learned these other ways in the "simplified" methods in the Ivy
Jacobsen methods, but prefer the 1st house rulership for strangers.



Hope this helps!

Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org



Thread: Void of course Moon
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:34:39 -0800

>Dear Deb,
>
>You are absolutely right! I did greatly shorten my explanation just to show
the "graphics" of what I call an "insign void opf course Moon. I had no
intention that the chart was meant to be looked at as anything more than
that. I was acting according to the old adage, " one picture equals 1000
words." Sorry if I oversimplified.
>
>I was, however, under the impression that the Moon is not Void if it will
perfect the aspect to the Part of Fortune. Are you saying that because the
Part of Fortune is not a planet that this is not so? I would be interested
in what others think about this.
>
>Sorry all for being too brief. I did consider the saturn/s.node, and the
angular mars originally, and should have been clearer about also taking that
into consideration in my post. But once again, I was only trying to show
what an "in -sign void moon" might look like. And now you tell me that it
wasnt so at all!!
>
>Thanks Deb for keeping me on my toes!
>
>Fondly,
>Dorothy
>
>
>At 08:48 PM 2/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hi Dorothy,
>>
>>You write:
>>
>>>I thought it might be helpful to demonstrate the Void Moon, that Sue and
>>Jonathon are describing in a horary. By Void, I mean, one that is not
>>applying to any planet, at the time of the question, even though it will be
>>within moeity of aspect (it will conjoin the part of fortune) before it
>>changes signs, using a horary question from this list. <
>>
>>
>>The main problem I have with your demonstration horary, is that the Moon
>>would be considered void of course by both definitions, as it perfects no
>>apect to any of the planets before they change signs. The only contact it
>>makes is to the Part of Fortune which isn't a planet.
>>
>>I also find it difficult to isolate one element of the chart as holding the
>>key to the answer. So many other factors in the chart are relevant too.
>>For example, Saturn in the 5th conjunct SN, showing the difficult birth,
>>and such a prominent Mars, crowning the chart and ruling the ascendant and
>>the 5th - a classic sign of the surgery at birth associated with
>>caesarians. (Of course I won't mention Pluto rising!)
>>
>>I would also consider this Moon to be void but whereas you say: 'the Moon
>>acted quite Void in this situation, and nothing came of the baby turning'
>>to me it's saying more than that, and indicating a long, hard, difficult
>>labour is in store. Void of course Moons always remind me of Lilly's quote
>>'all matters go hardly' because without the energy of the Moon to assist or
>>destroy, issues remain slow and difficult to resolve.
>>
>>Best wishes
>>Deb
>>
>>
>>
>



Thread: House rulerships
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:18:46 -0800

>Pat:
Re your question reproduced below:
>
>>I'd like, now, to have some feedback on rulerships. For example, when I ask
>questions about missing persons I take the first house as per Lilly's
>example. But if the person is not missing but is simply absent and is not a
>relative or friend or is not someone who can be categorised as a leader,
>I've seen other horary practitioners take the seventh house for that person.
>If the person was an open enemy or opposing the querent in the matter then
>the 7th house would also be taken. I've also read a technique where, in a
>question about winning teams, the horary astrologer has taken the 7th for
>the team if he did not support it and the 1st if he did, on the grounds that
>he identified with that team so that, I suppose, he and the team were one,
>e.g. the first house or Ascendant ruled the querent and the team.
>
>Now, suppose I want to ask a question about John Hume, the leader of the
>SDLP (a political party) in Northern Ireland. Do I take the 10th because he
>is a "leader" - even though not of the party in power? Or do I, because I
>identify with him, take the Ascendant as representing him? If he were not
>the leader of a party but an ordinary person with whom I identified but who
>did not know me, would I take the Ascendant then or, because there is no
>relationship, would I take the 7th?
>
Basic point to consider:

Why is the question being asked?

I have just gone through a rather sobering experience regarding a third
party horary which refused to obey every rule I could quote from Lilly.

Like Prospero in The Tempest I was tempted to break my staff and declare
that "this rough magic I now abjure" but I have slowly and painfully begun
to realise how much I had forgotten that astrology deserved greater respect
than I had shown it by asking some rather inappropriate questions - and us
Geminis are prone to throw questions at almost anything that moves!

If, for example, John Hume called me and asked a question about the
political situation in Northern Ireland I would have no hesitation in
answering it (apart from a serious attack of nerves, probably) but,
certainly in the light of my recent experience, I would be disinclined to
ask a question myself out of academic interest unless it were a matter of
life or death as described on p. 151 of Christian Astrology

Others may disagree but I for one shall let this subject go.

All good wishes,
Jonathon



Thread: House rulerships
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:14:14 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-03 15:40:20 EST, you write:

<<
Now, suppose I want to ask a question about John Hume, the leader of the
SDLP (a political party) in Northern Ireland. Do I take the 10th because he
is a "leader" - even though not of the party in power? >>

If it is a political contest, I would take the 10th for the person in power
and the opposite 4th for his or her opponent.

Tony


Thread: Definition of Void of Course
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:03:14 -0800

Hi Deb, I do applaude your comment "What I personally dislike is the strict
aderence to techinical 'limits' at the risk of considering the chart as a
whole." Speaking as novice, it is so easy to become entrapped in looking at
the do's and don'ts, and not give credence to the entirety of the chart. I
suppose it's remembering that every chart is totally unique unto itself, as
'twere.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Void of course Moon
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:55:14 -0800

Hi Dorothy, thanks for a very apt interpretation of VOC Moon, however, wouldn't
the fact that Moon sextiles Mars before leaving her sign of Gemini also
show the operation which would ultimately be necessary? Mars signifying
knives, blood, etc etc, plus being in the 10th house of authority, cld
surely indicate the professionals(surgeons) doing their job? Thus validating
the use of aspects '....during his being in that signe...'

Very interesting.

Regards

Angela



Thread: House rulerships
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:40:07 -0800

Hi Pat, I can't give you a definitive answer, I'll leave that to better
able people. I am only too painfully aware of how important the correct
significator is. One piece of advice I was given which I do sometimes find
very helpful to remember, is 'let the chart tell you'. I know this isn't
always clear cut, but it is often very easy to forget, by the time you've
looked at this rule and remembered to apply such and such a stricture, oh, and
don't overlook so and so, it is so easy to forget to let the chart speak to
you, and sometimes (not always, but very often) that is all you need. It may
not work in your particular case, but, just as an exercise, try it. Identify
all the possible significators, and then see if any one describes the person,
their situation, and their standing in the community, better than any of the
other alternatives.

Best of luck

Angela



Thread: Void of course Moon
From: allen edwall <76401.275@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:27:11 -0800

Hello, all,

>> If the chart above looks a mess to some of you, I apologize, Allen
Edwall can
tell you why this is.

You must view the chart with a font that is non-proportional, in other
words, all characters are a constant width. Courier New is such a font. In
my browser when I hit CTRL-T I move from a proportional to a
non-proportional font and back.


Allen


Thread: Definition of Void of Course
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:54:28 -0800

Angela, you write:

>The only part I would query is when Deb states that Lilly
was following Dariot, and hence, at 2 degs of Aries, Moon could be declared

VOC, even if applying at 22 degs of Aries, but it is still Lilly's words
that
state 'during his being in that sign' - surely that is plainly stating the

parameters being for the remaining duration of stay within sign? <

-----

Just want to clarify that I wasn't making this point myself, I was just
giving the other point of view. I remain as yet unconvinced -- though
open-minded -- that this is what Lilly meant.

In my own practise I will always consider the Moon's aspects throughout the
whole sign, but I don't give them equal significance. I have to agree that
aspects already in orb are much more pertinent, and I think that Sue's
research should be read in full by those considering this issue because it
gives a lot of food for thought and has a great deal of sensitive
understanding attached to it that's hard to get across an email forum.

What I personally dislike is the strict adherence to technical 'limits' at
the risk of considering the chart as a whole. Why should techniques of
denial such as frustration and prohibition apply to the planets but not be
applied to the Moon? I see frustration and prohibition as being relevant in
some instances, depending on the question and the situation at hand, and
not relevant in others.

Deb


Thread: Void of course Moon
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:49:32 -0800

Hi Dorothy,

You write:

>I thought it might be helpful to demonstrate the Void Moon, that Sue and
Jonathon are describing in a horary. By Void, I mean, one that is not
applying to any planet, at the time of the question, even though it will be
within moeity of aspect (it will conjoin the part of fortune) before it
changes signs, using a horary question from this list. <


The main problem I have with your demonstration horary, is that the Moon
would be considered void of course by both definitions, as it perfects no
apect to any of the planets before they change signs. The only contact it
makes is to the Part of Fortune which isn't a planet.

I also find it difficult to isolate one element of the chart as holding the
key to the answer. So many other factors in the chart are relevant too.
For example, Saturn in the 5th conjunct SN, showing the difficult birth,
and such a prominent Mars, crowning the chart and ruling the ascendant and
the 5th - a classic sign of the surgery at birth associated with
caesarians. (Of course I won't mention Pluto rising!)

I would also consider this Moon to be void but whereas you say: 'the Moon
acted quite Void in this situation, and nothing came of the baby turning'
to me it's saying more than that, and indicating a long, hard, difficult
labour is in store. Void of course Moons always remind me of Lilly's quote
'all matters go hardly' because without the energy of the Moon to assist or
destroy, issues remain slow and difficult to resolve.

Best wishes
Deb


Thread: House rulerships
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:26:35 -0800

Dear All,

I really enjoyed the discussion on the void of course moon and Lilly's case
analysis on p165 CA. It is very helpful to be part of such a discussion
group as this and I appreciate the input from everyone.

My apologies to Jonathan if I misunderstood the full text of what he was
saying but the great thing about this forum is that we can talk to each
other and correct impressions as we go along, just as if we were all in
someone's sitting room exchanging conversation.

I also have a confession to make - I think I was the culprit behind the
"subscribe" confusion - oops! Sorry ....

I'd like, now, to have some feedback on rulerships. For example, when I ask
questions about missing persons I take the first house as per Lilly's
example. But if the person is not missing but is simply absent and is not a
relative or friend or is not someone who can be categorised as a leader,
I've seen other horary practitioners take the seventh house for that person.
If the person was an open enemy or opposing the querent in the matter then
the 7th house would also be taken. I've also read a technique where, in a
question about winning teams, the horary astrologer has taken the 7th for
the team if he did not support it and the 1st if he did, on the grounds that
he identified with that team so that, I suppose, he and the team were one,
e.g. the first house or Ascendant ruled the querent and the team.

Now, suppose I want to ask a question about John Hume, the leader of the
SDLP (a political party) in Northern Ireland. Do I take the 10th because he
is a "leader" - even though not of the party in power? Or do I, because I
identify with him, take the Ascendant as representing him? If he were not
the leader of a party but an ordinary person with whom I identified but who
did not know me, would I take the Ascendant then or, because there is no
relationship, would I take the 7th?

I look forward to hearing people's views on this.


Pat.




Thread: Void of course Moon
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:03:50 -0800

Dear Fellow Listers,

I thought it might be helpful to demonstrate the Void Moon, that Sue and
Jonathon are describing in a horary. By Void, I mean, one that is not
applying to any planet, at the time of the question, even though it will be
within moeity of aspect (it will conjoin the part of fortune) before it
changes signs, using a horary question from this list.
Will the baby turn? 10/29/1996 7:44a 123w41,38n55 Regiomontus.
See Chart below.

Background

In Late October, Linda asked whether her grandaughter to be, would turn from
the breech position, she was in, so that her daughter, Charmaine might be
able to have a natural childbirth. Because this is a question about a
daughter's daughter, the 5th house ruler and planets in the 5th would
represent Charmaine, and the baby to be, Carmen, would be 9th house
ruler(the fifth from the 5th), the Moon.

Carmen's ruler the Moon, is at 14 Gemini. The Moon gets 6 degrees and 15
minutes moeity. That means the Moon directs its influencing rays, some 6
degrees forward. there are no planets withing range of this. Therefore, the
Moon makes no applying aspect to any planet, so the Moon in this question,
is not doing anything, and thus void of course. To make a long story short,
the baby did turn into the proper position for natural childbirth (mutable
sign of moon, and cardinal on cusp of the 9th). However, even though little
Carmen had turned around, her movement had no effect on the outcome. After 2
days of labor, a Casearian section was performed. The Moon acted quite Void
in this situation, and nothing came of the baby turning.

Here is the entire chart.

will daughter's fetus turn - natal
29 Oct 1996
7.44 A.M. (8)
123.41 WEST
38.55 NORTH
10H 02M 15S
Regiomontanus
00 LIB 28 LEO 19 CAN
* MA29Leo * *
NN06Lib VE00Lib *
* * *
25 LIB * 14 GEM
* * * * *
* * PF26Gem *
ME04Sco * * * * * MO14Gem
SU06Sco * * *
* * ** * ** * *
* *
* *
18 SCO ****************** ******************* 18 TAU
PL01Sag * *
* *
* * ** * ** * *
* * *
* *NE25Cpr* * *
* UR00Aqu* *
* * * * *
14 SAG * 25 ARI
* * * SN06Ari
JU12Cpr * SA01Ari
* * *
19 CPR 28 AQU 00 ARI

If the chart above looks a mess to some of you, I apologize, Allen Edwal can
tell you why this is. FYI to those new to the list, Little Carmen Amy (the
1st baby of the William Lilly List) was born on 18 dec 1996, 9:54a.m. AEDT,
41s04, 14e54. Hope we get to see her one day!!!

Hope this helps,

Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org



Thread: House rulerships
From: Osmar Jardim <osjardim@cwbone.bsi.com.br> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:36:06 -0800

harris wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>

> I'd like, now, to have some feedback on rulerships. For example, when I ask
> questions about missing persons I take the first house as per Lilly's
> example. ...
> I've seen other horary practitioners take the seventh house for that person.

<snip>

> Now, suppose I want to ask a question about John Hume, the leader of the
> SDLP (a political party) in Northern Ireland. Do I take the 10th because he
> is a "leader" - even though not of the party in power? Or do I, because I
> identify with him, take the Ascendant as representing him? If he were not
> the leader of a party but an ordinary person with whom I identified but who
> did not know me, would I take the Ascendant then or, because there is no
> relationship, would I take the 7th?


Hi, Pat,
Hi everybody,
I posted about a missing possession last week, but it did not reach the list.

For me, void of course moon under Lilly's optics is still requiring reflexion, so subject is
open, I would like to go deeper and perhaps some of us will follow.

Pat, the nineth house will serve you better for a missing person, regardless who one might
be looking for. I learned this with Mr. Gilbert Navarro. Try it and let us know the results.
Of course, the first, the seventh, the tenth can also be used, for confirmation.
Thanks for reading this.


Osmar Jardim
Brazil




Thread: Announcement
From: aikido@juno.com (Sue Miller) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:02:14 -0800

Carol:

I have been wondering how to be of help to you so far away. I have
thought of a way now and am mailing $150 to cover the price of the last
5 lessons needed to complete my course. If the cost is still $30 each
this should do it AND add money to your "till" to assist finances there
incurred during the Weather Problem!!!

Thank YOU for your patience with your whole situation.

Sue Miller
aikido@juno.com


On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:50:54 +8 "Carol A. Wiggers"
<william_lilly@halcyon.com> writes:
>Hi member of the list,
>You have all been great following the rules but we have a
>problem....somehow the word subscribe got into the subject line of
>one of your discussions and it is being filtered over to the new
>subscribers list. Before replying again please take the word
>subscribe out, Thanks.
>All of the past lilly mail is now up at the site, there are 6 zip
>files all together. You can pick them up anytime.
>The Horary Practitioner will be shipped next week, we have a promised
>delivery date of Wednesday from the shipper and then they will be
>bagged and tagged and sent to you (if you subscribed). Thank you for
>your patience through this second issue from hell (well it's 3rd
>actually, because Deb's last issue was the 2nd issue from hell!).
>Love & Light
>Carol
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
>horary_astrology@compuserve.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>


Thread: Application and Void of Course
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix13.ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:33:52 -0800

Sue Ward has certainly presented an interesting case for a
reappraisal of the definition of Void of Course Moon. Of course, if
one chooses to use this (i.e., rigid adherence to the definition of
being "in orb") as the operative definition, the next issue is what
to do with the Outers: to use or not to use.

While I have not chosen to switch my usage in horary from the more
modern definition, I think the immediacy of the issue of being in
orb is of immediate use in electional. Here the meaning is completely
clear. If the Moon is not within orb of another body, then it means
that the Moon will not apply to any planet ON THIS DAY, which means
that, unless some other body is making a partile aspect ON THIS DAY,
that the only way to come up with a meaningful electional for the
day is to use an aspect created to the Part of Fortune.

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: Lilly's texts
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 04:26:52 -0800

Please ignore the title, remember I have problems with my server recognising th
e underscore.

May I briefly link back to a previous discussion on event charts? If I constru
ct a horary chart when a Querent asks me a question, then the Querent is first
house; if I then construct an event chart for the prospective reading/consultat
ion, is the Querent still first house, or do I need to turn the chart?

Regards

Angela



Thread: Definition of Void of Course
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 04:16:30 -0800

Sorry, I realise that Deb has, in fact, answered the very points I raise in my
previous posting. The only part I would query is when Deb states that Lilly
was following Dariot, and hence, at 2 degs of Aries, Moon could be declared
VOC, even if applying at 22 degs of Aries, but it is still Lilly's words that
state 'during his being in that sign' - surely that is plainly stating the
parameters being for the remaining duration of stay within sign?

I truly don't understand why there is any doubt about what sounds to be
perfectly clear. The man himself states '..during his being in that sign..'
what else could he mean?

Confused,

Angela



Thread: Application and Void of Course
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:18:23 -0800


Interesting stuff re VOC, - but I have to say,I don't think it is 'application'
which is under contention, but the parameters of its usage, dependant upon
individual interpretation of Lilly - what I find confusing is the fact that
the words 'forthwith' and 'notwithstanding' seem to be ignored, and yet seem
fairly definitive in themselves. Lilly says ".... nor doth forthwith, during
his being in that Signe..." - surely the 'forthwith, during his being in that
sign' is quite explicit in saying that for the duration of the Moon's/planet's
stay in that particular sign is the parameter to use for making application.
In other words, surely he is concurring with the other traditional writers in
saying that application should be commenced whilst the Moon/planet is in that
sign - not that it has to be within orb at the moment of the chart, but that it
will be applying '...during his being in that sign..'?

This is the part which confuses me. I don't see any problem with the
definition of 'application', but I do have problems with what Lilly appears to
be quite clearly saying, and yet it seems to be being ignored or totally
misrepresented.

Any feelings out there with regard to these phrases/words of Lilly's?

Regards

Angela



Thread: VOC Moon
From: allen edwall <76401.275@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:01:08 -0800
Status: U

Howdy, all,

It seems to me that we are getting lost in all this definition stuff for
void of course Moon. No matter what your definition there are four cases we
have to worry about.

Case 1 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the same sign and
the Moon is already within orb to said planet.

Case 2 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the same sign BUT
the Moon is NOT already within orb to said planet.

Case 3 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the NEXT sign and
the Moon is already within orb to said planet.

Case 4 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the NEXT sign BUT
the Moon is NOT already within orb to said planet and will not be within
orb until after the Moon changes sign.

Ok.

For case 1 interpretation - Some action will occur relatively quickly based
upon the nature of the planet the Moon is aspecting and also the type of
aspect (Moon already within orb).

For case 2 interpretation - NO action will occur for some time, but then
some action will occur based upon the nature of the planet the Moon is
aspecting and also the type of aspect (action occurs when Moon gets within
orb).

For case 3 interpretation - Some action will occur relatively quickly based
upon the nature of the planet the Moon is aspecting and also the type of
aspect BUT something will first change (Moon changing signs) before that
action occurs.

For case 4 interpretation - This is probably true VOC because nothing will
happen, then some change will occur that changes the whole result regarding
the original question.

>From a logical point of view the above seems to break no rule or guideline
and we have preserved the PRINICPLE of a void of course body without
getting lost in definitions and rhetoric.

Does this make sense to anyone? I think it does to me.


Allen

P.S. I wrote this before reading Deborah Houlding's comments. I think we
are both saying the same thing.


Thread: Ship Lost
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:18:09 -0800
Status: U

Sue wote:

"...I wonder if the phrase, 'then at the time
of the question voyd of course', should read, 'then at the time of the
question *had been* voyd of course'. Could it be that simple?"

I'll give my vote to this one. A very simple explanation that makes sense
of it all.
Deb.


Deborah Houlding
Editor - Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com



Thread: Ship Lost
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:18:10 -0800
Status: U

Sue wote:

"...I wonder if the phrase, 'then at the time
of the question voyd of course', should read, 'then at the time of the
question *had been* voyd of course'. Could it be that simple?"

I'll give my vote to this one. A very simple explanation that makes sense
of it all.
Deb.


Deborah Houlding
Editor - Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com



Thread: Void of Course Moon
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:11:16 -0800

>Pat Harris wrote
>
>Following Tony's observation on voc moon and your [i.e. mine, Jonathon's]
response that the Moon is
>not voc until it perfects its trine to Saturn - in the case on p165 CA, by
>the time the Moon had perfected its trine to Saturn it would then be within
>moiety of an opposition to Mercury at 16 plus in Pisces so would not
>actually be void of course until it had perfected its opposition to Mercury
>being not yet within moiety of orb of aspect to the Sun at 28 plus Pisces.

My reply:

I don't think I actually said that - or I certainly didn't mean to say that
the Moon became v/c after its trine with Saturn for exactly the reason that
Pat has pointed out.

Regards,
Jonathon
>
>
>
>
>



Thread: Definition of Void of Course
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:11:17 -0800

Deb - many thanks for your posting on this subject which I found most useful
and interesting.

Of particular importance, I think, is the quote from Coley which seems to
run counter to Sue Ward's suggestion that, for example, the Moon could be
void of course at 2 Aries if it did not make another aspect until a planet
at 22 Aries. The fact that the quote is from Coley is significant since, as
I understand it, he followed Lilly closely.

I seem to remember that Sue was collecting charts with this sort of feature
some months ago to look for further evidence.

Any news, Sue?

Regards,
Jonathon>


>COLEY
>Void of Course is only thus, one planet separates from the body or aspect
>of another, and applies to no other planet whilst he is in that sign' -
>Ch.10, Sect XI ; p.96.
>
>RAMESEY
>Void of Course is when a planet is separated from another, and doth not,
>during the time of its continuance in that sign, apply again to any other.'
>- p.111
>
>
>



Thread: William Lilly's texts + regarding void of
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:47:40 -0800

Interesting discussion which is close to my heart--

I need digital copies of the Historical texts mentioned in the group. If
you have them please send them to my aol account siderealm@aol.com
attaching them to a hello. In return I will send you a free copy of my
su mo me ve ma ju sat, Ptolemaic aspect (0,60,90,120,180) void of course
moon ephemeris for 1997. This ephemeris has been computed/created to
reflect the tropical void of course moon period in an ideal last partile
aspect in sign to next sign change, without recourse to variable orbal
uncertainties which forever cloud the issue. This is very similar to the
late Al Morrison's interpretation of the early English texts except that
I have excluded planets etc. of modern discovery and speculation.

Is anyone considering the possibility that in the cases when Lilly deigns
to render a judgement with the moon void of course under the conditions
which I mention that he may also be taking into consideration a
possible void of course radix of the querent? In my modern experience
this special consideration needs to be made because people who are born
during VOC periods have developed special skills and talents for coping
with the circumstance in their lives and are able to operate effectively
when the rest of us are paralysed. Could Mr. Lilly have noticed this as
well?

MKJ 11 Feb 1947 1:49 PM 77 West 39 North


Michael Jordan
Siderealm@juno.com
For a copy of the Void of Course Moon Ephemeris for 1997 send $4 US to me
at
82 Lawson Road
Kensington, CA 94707




Thread: Ship Lost
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 06:43:27 -0800


>Maybe Sue Ward can clarify this example for us.
>
>Tony

I'll do my best, but don't you think it's lovely to see so much debate at
such a technical level?

There must be some subscribers without the benefit of Christian Astrology
and because this is the only way to get a clear view of the passage you all
mention, here is a grid representation of the chart (a flattened out version):

0 2 4 6 8 10 12 15 16 17 19 22 24 25 26 27 28 29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Mn Sa Me PF NN Ma Ju
Cn Vi Ta Pi Sc Cn Cn Cn
04' 44' 05' 15' 59' 13'
20'

Rx
Ve
Su
Ar
Pi
33'
44'

Hour Ruler: Moon

The Moon hasn't made any (major) aspects yet from its current sign of Virgo.
In its previous sign of Leo, though, its last aspect had been a square of
Saturn. This is what Lilly means by 'lately separarated from a square of
Saturn'.

Then he says: 'then at time of the question voyd of course;' - a knotty
phrase indeed because the Moon is actually applying to trine Saturn at this
point. There are only 5degs difference and the joint moieties of the two
planets total to a minimum of 10.5degs. I don't know why he used this phrase
to describe the Moon's condition other than that it had no *separating*
influences either at that time. Nothing had happened to the Moon since the
square to Saturn from Leo. The Moon's influence had been void for all of
that time, now it is moving to an event.

'but afterwards first applyed to a trine of Saturn, then to opposition of
Mercury...', this we can see from the grid. But notice the change of tense
in the phrase. We assume that he means the Moon *is* void of course at the
time of the question and then he says that *after* this it applies to aspect.

The next mention of void of course comes in the passage: 'and as the Moon
had been voyd of course,...'. So, I wonder if the phrase, 'then at the time
of the question voyd of course', should read, 'then at the time of the
question *had been* voyd of course'. Could it be that simple?

The upshot of all this is that Lilly judges the ship lost and he bases some
of this on the fact that the Moon, general significator of the ship, has
been void of course for so long.

The other interesting thing about this chart is that he takes account of
both of the Moon's applications to judge, he doesn't often do that, usually
relying on the next application alone.

Drop me a line if you need any further explanation.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Application and Void of Course
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 06:43:25 -0800

I've been following the recent discussion regarding void of course with very
great interest. It's great to see so many of you dealing with the subject in
such a scholarly fashion.

Since my research on the subject has been mentioned a few times now, I
thought it might be helpful if I clarified a few points. I put this research
into an article which examined Lilly's approach to the Considerations Before
Judgement (it was published in The Horary Practitioner and The Astrology
Quarterly should you want to read it for yourselves). Of course, one of the
Considerations is that about the void of course Moon. This article is quite
old now, but I haven't found anything so far to change my findings.

The sentence some of you have been having problems with ("A Planet is voyd
of course, when he is seperated from a Planet, nor doth forthwith, during
his being in that Signe, apply to any other:"), also caused me problems. I
was working backwards, in that I found the charts where I would have said
the Moon was void but he didn't mention as such and charts where he said the
Moon was void, but I would have said was not. As there were so many
differences between us on this point, it had to follow that there was
something amiss in his definition of the term. There was something I was
missing - well, either that or he was making it up as he went along.

The word in that sentence that needed looking at was 'apply'. Until then I
had always used the word to mean 'moving forward', the same as everyone
else. After six weeks' concentrated work I could safely say that 'to apply'
means to move towards aspect *within planetary orbs'.

(I wonder if someone could post an explanation of moieties and orbs to the
list for those who don't understand this principle. Also, Deborah Houlding
wrote a very good piece on aspects in The Traditional Astrologer).

So, all I did was to define 'application' and I have checked every reference
since, including the Greek and Latin track booklets from Project Hindsight,
and there is no dispute over what this means.

However you choose to define 'void of course' is up to you, there are many
definitions depending on how far back you want to go. I follow Lilly's
method and for those who do, void of course is plain: when the planet is not
applying to another planet.

Of course, this is all very easy to check: read Christian Astrology and see
if you can find a different explanation (the first incorrect definition of
'application' seems to stem from Alan Leo) and see if you've got any charts
where you have accepted an application out of orbs and you were wrong, the
predicted event didn't occur. Or vice versa, but most of the contention
about what my researches turned up has been about the void of course Moon,
forgetting that what I was actually talking about was the term 'application'
and its use. Its effect on the void condition is secondary.

Once application was properly defined (and separation has a similar
definition with the obvious difference), I could then see what Lilly was
doing with the void of course 'rule': a planet is void of course when it has
separated from a planet and doesn't immediately join orbs with another.

The only way of being clear about this was to check all of his example
charts and see how he put it into practice and he was consistent. I think it
was Deborah who mentioned a couple of inconsistencies and there were two,
but these had nothing to do with the void of course condition, but with his
use of application. As I've said in earlier posts, Lilly did judge charts
where the Moon was void and, on occasion, would take account of future
aspects where there was no application operating.

If you check Lilly's work you will see that his attitude to and use of the
technique of application and void of course is clear. Whether you wish to
use it is not my concern and never was, but you might like to be aware that
it is different to that practised by some people now. I have to say, though,
that there are many points in Lilly's method about which I am unclear, but
this isn't one of them.

Sincerely

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Subscribe william lilly
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 05:29:00 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-02 03:56:27 EST, you write:

<< Following Tony's observation on voc moon and your response that the Moon
is
not voc until it perfects its trine to Saturn - in the case on p165 CA, >>

Just want to be clear that Lilly appears to be using "voyd" in this way in
the example on p.165 of CA. I would not have considered the Moon void at
the time of the question since it is applying to the trine of Saturn. I
can only guess that Lilly meant the moon was void because she was in Virgo,
had not yet perfected any aspect, and was not within orb of separating from
any aspect. Maybe he simply made a slip of the pen and intended to say
that the Moon had very recently been void just before the time of the
question and that little could occur until the Moon in fact trined Saturn.
But then again he was concerned that Saturn as ruler of the 8th of Death was
not such a great planet for the Moon to aspect even by trine. Perhaps
"voyd" was a shorthand for Lilly's rather complex thinking about this
particular shipwreck question.

Tony


Thread: Subscribe william lilly
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:08:58 -0800

Dear Jonathan,

Following Tony's observation on voc moon and your response that the Moon is
not voc until it perfects its trine to Saturn - in the case on p165 CA, by
the time the Moon had perfected its trine to Saturn it would then be within
moiety of an opposition to Mercury at 16 plus in Pisces so would not
actually be void of course until it had perfected its opposition to Mercury
being not yet within moiety of orb of aspect to the Sun at 28 plus Pisces.

May I say, at this point, how much I am enjoying being part of this forum
and the exchange of thoughts and knowledge which is constantly going on.
Wonderful!

Pat.



Thread: Subscribe william lilly mailing list
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:42:34 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-01 15:34:51 EST, you write:

<<
>On p.112 Lilly writes that a planet is "voyd of course, when he is
separated
>from a Planet, nor doth forthwth, during his being in that Signe, apply to
>any other"
>
>In the chart on p.165, the Moon has not separated from any planets in Virgo
>and is void until it perfects the trine to Saturn, even though the Moon is
>within orb of that trine at the time of the question. Lilly is being
>consistent with his own definition.l
>
>My query to Tony:

Surely the Moon is not void of course until it perfects its trine to Saturn.
There are two phenomena - one is application and the other is perfection.
Void of course occurs when no application is taking place.
>>
I am puzzled by Lilly's example, but he was aware that the Moon was within
orb of trine to Saturn and called the Moon voyd nonetheless. He seems to be
implying that the void period will not end until the trine become perfect in
this example.

Maybe Sue Ward can clarify this example for us.

Tony


Thread: Lilly's texts
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:09:00 -0800

Re: could somebody tell me where it's possible to find texts
of or about William Lilly ?

I presume that Carol will inform you of the texts she has available.
If you email me your address I'll send you the Ascella catalogue which
includes the following works by Lilly:
Christian Astrology
England's Propheticall Merlin
Prophecy of the White King

It also supplies the following books about his life:
Lilly's own autobigraphy
Derek Parker's Familiar to all, William Lilly and Astrology in the 17th
Century
Ann Geneva, Astrology and the 17th Century (large sections on Lilly)

... and several other books, such as Patrick Curry's 'Prophecy and Power'
which contain a great deal of information about Lilly and his
contemporaries

Deborah Houlding
Editor: Traditional Astrologer
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com


Thread: Definition of Void of Course
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 14:49:54 -0800

The discussions on the proper definition of the term 'void of course' seem
to be going round and round, particularly with regards to Lilly's use of
it. Personally, I'm not sure that any of us can have an absolute conviction
in how Lilly understood or applied the term. Possibly, his attitude to it,
as a busy practising astrologer, was much like his stance on planetary
orbs: "I sometimes use the one and sometimes the other".

Sue Ward has instigated a strong argument that Lilly applied the term if
the Moon was 'out of application' rather than 'out of sign'. This theory
could well be right, but the crux of the matter is: what did Lilly mean by
the phrase "nor doth forthwith, during his being in that sign, apply to any
other"?

If we put the emphasis, like most of us were taught to before this issue
was raised, on the phrase "during his being in that sign", this would mean
that the Moon is void of course only if it traverses the whole sign without
making an aspect. But the new theory puts the emphasis on the word 'apply'
and Sue's argument is that Lilly was following Dariot's use of the word
'application' which meant 'to be in orb and moving towards perfection'.
Therefore, the Moon could be described as void of course at 2 Aries, even
though it would later join another planet at 22 Aries. Even Sue, in her
excellently researched article originally published in the Quarterly and
the Horary Practitioner, admits that there are some inconsistencies in
Lilly's practical work which give some pause for doubt.

My own opinion is that Horary has a methodology of its own -- represented
at its best through Lilly -- but larger than his work alone. If Lilly's
writings leave a sense of confusion, we should look for the answer
elsewhere. There have been many definitions of the term, with a great deal
of variation offered, (Firmicus, for example called it 'running through a
vacuum'; Al-Biruni termed it 'Feral') but it seems to me that throughout
tradition the standard use of the term was: to pass through a sign without
making aspect or contact with any other.

This was certainly the case in the classical period, but then they didn't
place the emphasis on aspectual orbs that we do today, so that is not the
best place to look for answers. In modern times too, until this issue was
scrutinised by Sue, no one questioned but that it meant the traversing of a
whole sign, so works such as Ivy Goldstein Jacobson's and other horary
'Greats' used it in that way.

I've reproduced some references from Al-Biruni, Ezra, Coley and Ramesey
which suggest to me that it is perfectly in line with horary theory to use
it in that way. Of course, this is only my opinion and my subjective
interpretation of the quotes. It may well be that at the end of the day,
interpretative use can be made of both: for example, that a planet 'out of
application' can be considered as 'idle' and not doing much, whereas one
that makes no contact for the rest of its journey through a sign is showing
no future hope of that idle state being changed. I don't profess to know
the answer and others can form their own opinions, but I think there is
enough flexibility in the term for us all to feel confident in our
judgements however we chose to apply it.

AL-BIRUNI
VOID OF COURSE: If while within a sign a planet does not enter into
conjunction with another, although in aspect to other planets, it is said
to be void of course.
FERAL: When a planet is in a sign and no other planet has been in aspect
with it from the time of its entry to that of its exit, it is said to be
feral in its course. This is practically impossible with the superior
planets and the Sun, and can rarely occur, but with the Moon it is
necessarily the case and frequently occurs. - 505 p.310

IBN EZRA
ISOLATION sets in when a planet separates from its satellite 15 degrees
either in conjunction or in a sextile aspect, and it does not enter into
conjunction with any other planet as long as it is in this sign, and no
planet enters into complete aspect with it as long as it stays there,
regardless which aspect it may be.

THE FERAL POSITION is when a planet is in a sign and no other planet enters
into aspect with it as long as it is there, and it does not depart from any
planet. That can only happen to the Moon because of the speed of its
motion.' Ch. VII, p.211.

COLEY
Void of Course is only thus, one planet separates from the body or aspect
of another, and applies to no other planet whilst he is in that sign' -
Ch.10, Sect XI ; p.96.

RAMESEY
Void of Course is when a planet is separated from another, and doth not,
during the time of its continuance in that sign, apply again to any other.'
- p.111

Incidentally, I never discard a chart because the Moon is void of course --
that idle state is saying a great deal and offering a big warning which
should be put to the client. I think the best definition of what it means
was summed up by Lilly on CA p.377, where he says:

"If the Moon be Void of Course, unless the significators apply strongly,
there's seldom any bargain concluded or commodity at that time bought, and
yet both parties wrangle and have some meetings to no purpose"

In the practical use of astrology, I would also consider the application of
a void of course Moon to another planet over sign cusps if within orbs (as
Lilly did on p.385) as saying something of importance too. But cusps show
changes or 'barriers' and this has to be taken into consideration of the
overall chart.

Deborah Houlding
Editor: Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Deborah_Houlding@Compuserve.com


Thread: William Lilly's texts
From: saison <saison@worldnet.fr> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:59:24 -0800

could somebody tell me where it's possible to find texts
of or about William Lilly ?
many thanks


Thread: International Agenda for February 1997
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:00:54 -0800

1 - 2 February 1997 - Lunar Consciousness Conference with Ingrid Naiman and
Donna Van Toen, Clarion Essex Park Hotel, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Info:
phone/fax 1-416-466-2258. Email: cvantoe@ibm.net

4 February - 31 August 1997 - Exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New
York, NY, USA, in the Islamic Wing: "Following the Stars: Images of the Zodiac
in Islamic Art".

7 - 9 February 1997 - Brighton Weekend with Pat Blackett, Geoffrey Cornelius,
Joe Friedman, Maggie Hyde, Alan Jones, Sally Kirkman, Lindsay Radermacher,
Graeme Tobyn, Joanna Watters, Vernon Wells, in Brighton, England, organized by
The Company of Astrologers (COA). Info: phone 44-1227-362427.

13 - 27 February 1997 - "Envisioning Our Galactic Future/History at the
Jupiter Uranus Conjunction" in Yucatan, Mexico. First part at a retreat
center near Belize, second part at Tikal and Palenque with Marcia Starck,
Medical Astrologer and Medicine Teacher, Catherine Bean Weser, Mayan-De-coder
and Jeremiah Weser, Astrologer. Info: Phone 1-505-473-1464, 3000-Calle Quieta
Sant Fe, NM 87505, USA, Email: marcia@nm-us.campus.mci.net

13 - 16 February 1997 - Astrology Congress Barcelona '97, Lugar Hotel Sant
Agusti, Barcelona, Spain, (with simultaneous translations in English &
Spanish), organized by The Astrological Association of Catalunya CYKLOS, with
Mariano Aladren, Maria Jose Bustos, Jose Luis Carrion, Sara Cavalle, Daniel
Dancourt, Guiomar Eguillor, Vicente Gala, Eliseo Gallardo, Miguel Garcia,
Thomas Gazis (Greece), Jesus Gabriel Gutierrez, Carmen de Hita, Johan
Hjelmborg (Denmark), Louise Kirsebom, Profesor Lester, Jesus Lidon, Tito
Macia, Maria Malo, Grazia Mirti (Italy), Flavia de Monsaraz (Portugal),
Elisenda Pamies, Jorge Cesar Parodi (Argentina), Jose Luis Pascual, Jose
Antonio Rodriguez, Juan Trigo, Lezagi Zandinga (Portugal). 'Astrology week'
starts February 8. Info: Paseo San Juan, 196-1-2, 08037 Barcelona, Spain.
Phone/fax 34-3-2192920 or 34-93-2073561.

14 - 16 February 1997 - Cycles & Symbols III: "The Return of Soul to the
Cosmos", organized by ISIS, San Francisco Bay Area, CA, U.S.A. with Stephen
Arroyo, Caroline Casey, Priscilla Costello, Steven Forrest, Stanislav Grof,
Karen Hamaker, Robert Hand, Charles Harvey, James Hillman, William Keepin,
Richard Tarnas, etc. Info: tel. 1-510-222-9436. fax 1-510-222-2202.

15 - 17 February 1997 - 20th Annual International Astrological Conference
1997, Calcutta, India. Info: Dr Ram Krishna Sastri, 70, Kailash Bose Street,
Calcutta 700006, India. Phone: 91-33-350-8450 or 91-33-350-0327.

21 - 24 February 1997 - Parallel Interface Conference, Manchester, England,
with Dennis Elwell, Demetra George, Kevin Hawley, Lee Lehman, Gary Parkinson,
Shelly von Strunkel. Info: phone 44-171-700-3746, fax 44-171-700-6479. URL:
http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/index.html

28 February - 2 March 1997 - 2nd "Uranus in Aquarius" conference: "Toward an
astrology for the third millenium", Moscow, Russia, organized by Moscow
Astrology Research Center, Omega Club, "Russian Astrology" Journal and
Euro-Asian Chapter of NCGR, with Farida Asadullina, Peta High, Boros Izraitel,
Grigory Kvasha, Alphee Lavoie, Sergey Shestopalov, Elizabeth Teissier, Sergey
Vronsky, etc. Info: Russia, Moscow, 129626, p/b 5, phone 7-095-282-7402, fax
7-095-261-1806, Email: boris@izraitel.msk.ru
---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---


Thread: Subscribe william lilly mailing list
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 03:09:44 -0800

>In a message dated 97-01-30 15:49:45 EST, Pat Harris wroite:
>
><< With regard to the Moon in the Lilly case on p165, I
> agree with Angela in that, according to my moiety tables, the Moon was
> already applying to a trine of Saturn when the chart for the question was
> erected. >>
>
Tony Louis replied

>On p.112 Lilly writes that a planet is "voyd of course, when he is separated
>from a Planet, nor doth forthwth, during his being in that Signe, apply to
>any other"
>
>In the chart on p.165, the Moon has not separated from any planets in Virgo
>and is void until it perfects the trine to Saturn, even though the Moon is
>within orb of that trine at the time of the question. Lilly is being
>consistent with his own definition.l
>
>My query to Tony:

Surely the Moon is not void of course until it perfects its trine to Saturn.
There are two phenomena - one is application and the other is perfection.
Void of course occurs when no application is taking place.

Regards,
Jonathon
>
>



Thread: Void of course Moon
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 03:09:41 -0800

Pat,

Please see my other reply on this but hope the following comments are also
of use.

Jonathon

Many thanks for the several responses to my question. I will sort out some
>examples of void of course moon and make the data available through the
>mailing list, hopefully in the next couple of days.
>
>Angela (Reeve) voiced some concerns I subsequently had following Sue Ward's
>kind reply to my query.
>
>In the analysis for a ship lost at sea on page 165 CA which Angela cites,
>Lilly also indicates that the Moon is void of course because she is not yet
>within moiety of orb of opposition of Mercury at 16 degrees plus in Pisces.
>So the Moon can be void of course within a sign, presumably, if, having
>separated by aspect from one planet, it is not near enough, by joint moiety,
>to another to make an applying aspect although it will eventually make such
>an applying aspect before it leaves the sign in which it is placed. (The
>mind boggles

It does, but that seems to be the sense which Sue Ward unearthed in her 1993
article - see reference on my other posting.

.....) With regard to the Moon in the Lilly case on p165, I
>agree with Angela in that, according to my moiety tables, the Moon was
>already applying to a trine of Saturn when the chart for the question was
>erected. Incidentally, Lilly describes the Moon in that chart as separating
>from a square of Saturn and then applying to a trine of it whilst still in
>the same sign, if I am not mistaken - but then, again, perhaps I am as, once
>more with reference to Angela, the medieval text and diagrams are difficult
>to decipher!

No, you are quite correct, this is what he does say and it is true, if unusual.

The position of the planets are :

Sun 28 Pisces
Moon 10 Virgo
Mercury 16 Pisces
Venus 8 Aries
Mars 25 Cancer
Jupiter 28 Cancer
Saturn 15 Taurus

Thus the Moon has made no major aspect since its square to Saturn when it
(Moon) was in Leo. Strange but true.
>
>All the best,
Jonathon



Thread: Subscribe william lilly mailing list
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:38:41 -0800

In a message dated 97-01-30 15:49:45 EST, you write:

<< With regard to the Moon in the Lilly case on p165, I
agree with Angela in that, according to my moiety tables, the Moon was
already applying to a trine of Saturn when the chart for the question was
erected. >>

On p.112 Lilly writes that a planet is "voyd of course, when he is separated
from a Planet, nor doth forthwth, during his being in that Signe, apply to
any other"

In the chart on p.165, the Moon has not separated from any planets in Virgo
and is void until it perfects the trine to Saturn, even though the Moon is
within orb of that trine at the time of the question. Lilly is being
consistent with his own definition.l

Tony


Thread: Subscribe william lilly
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:03:19 -0800

Linda,

The driving licence is Didi's possession so I would take it that it is ruled
by the significator of the second house. You may also have to consider the
4th and its ruler if the licence has been mislaid rather than lost. In your
chart, the Moon is in the fourth so this might indicate that it was mislaid
- put down and forgotten about, something like that or that it fell out of
her pocket. I notice the 2nd house ruler is Mercury which is in the 8th
with the Moon applying by trine to it from the 4th. Perhaps it is in a
place associated with death (8th house)?. There is a lot of stuff on this
subject in CA pp 320 - 324 and also pp 100, 202/3 and 326 which might help
you work out what has happened to it and where it is - good luck! I would
appreciate hearing about the outcome as I don't do many questions on lost or
mislaid property.



Pat

-----------

Jonathan,

Many, many thanks for your advice on interpreting Lilly and the voc Moon on
p165 CA and explaining that the square aspect to Saturn referred to the
Moon's activities in the previous sign of Leo.




Pat.



Thread: Introduction
From: hans.van.rossum@astronet.idn.nl (Hans van Rossum) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 04:10:00 -0800

I am a practicing astrologer, also giving courses in (mostly
psychological) astrology, born 19/2/1928 20.00 amsterdam, netherlands. I
have no objection for you to use my chart for explaining the difference
between traditional and other astrology or for other purposes within this
group.

I have just joined this group and while i think i have read/studied most
modern astrology writers, lilly and olivia barclay (except for her very
interesting article on traditional astrology in the britisch astrological
magazine) are not amongst them. here in holland olivia barclay's book
horary astrology rediscovered is obtainable but of lilly's book Christian
astrology there seems to be only a very expensive edition in holland. Are
cheaper editions obtainable and do you have suggestions for other books
to enable me to get better aquainted with traditional astrology and do
you have other suggestions to make it easier for me to follow
discussions? You might also (as suggested by you) email me Wordview if
this enables me to better participate and read charts, but at the same
time i presume you alway as give chart dates, times and places so i can
print them myself. I would also like to receive the file with previous
messages as i cant browse on internet.
greetings from holland.

HvR> Origin: hans van rossum astroloog tel.0186-572534 westmaas"
HvR> (61:100/205.35)

Groeten
Hans

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