Thread: Registered: Ian Goldsmith
From: Ian Goldsmith <igoldsmi@nla.gov.au> Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:01:33 -0800




Thread: Hervey Bay
From: ENTRTAINR@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:12:46 -0800

Hi Hervey Bay People,

To everyone else, my apologies since this has nothing to do with Astrology.

My husband and I were in Australia 2 years ago. We picked up a car when we
arrived in Sydney and drove for two weeks. We drove all the way up to
Townsville and Cairns, stopping in towns along the way. Hervery Bay was one
of the towns we stayed the night in. It was so nice walking along the beach
in the morning. It seemed as if we could walk forever. We loved it and the
people we met.

Seeing Hervey Bay mentioned on the list made me want to say hello to Hervey
Bay once again.

Love to all,

Trudy


Thread: Water test
From: jmetz <jmetz@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:01:02 -0800

Hi all-as a follow up to the water test question, we had it re-tested
and everything was okay. We paid $105 for the chlorination of the well
and retest. I think I was accurate when I saw my buyer in the 10th,
Saturn, that she was consulting the experts. I was definitely the moon
sq Neptune! Thanks to you Tony for your help and to everyone else who
commented! Janis




Thread: Genealogy & horary
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 14:46:11 -0800

At 03:08 PM 11/29/96 +0000, joane wrote:
>Census, name searches...more microfilms...more microfiche...dead
>ends...frustration...lamenting...is he or is he not related!
>snip<

The three tie-in confirmers were there and ruler
>hour also agreed! The relationship between the grand-uncle, the
>great-granduncle and the great-grandfather were confirmed!
>..happiness is... ; )
>===joane

Hi Joane,

I'd be interested in what those *confirmers* are - I've done our genealogy
back to the 1100's on some lines and the 1600 on many but a most important
one, my husbands paternal line and the one with the 'name' comes to a sudden
halt when we discover in the same town and the same street ( !!!) on the
same census, two Robert Reids married to two Margarets both with a son Hugh
( the known great grandfather) born about two years apart. Blind alley -
which line to take? I have the birth dates of both couples so would love to
have some way of confirming as family names frequency in both families don't
help - they have common names in both.

What a fascinating concept using horary - I could help our genealogical
society out in a big way!

Regards

Linda Reid

>
>
>



Thread: Hervey Bay
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 04:43:33 -0800

Request for info:

Does anyone know of a contact address for a horary astrologer called Stig Oyan
from Norway. He wrote to me some time ago and I need to get in touch but no
longer have his address so if anyone can help it would be very much appreciated.
My personal address is
101572.1131@compuserve.com.

To Anne and Linda,

I'm ready and willing and don't need a horary to tell me that I will return as
soon as I am invited.

Glad to hear that you are both getting so involved and spawning lots of horary
interest over there.



Thread: Hervey Bay
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:02:15 -0800

At 11:14 PM 11/30/96 +1030, Anne Fryer wrote:
>Please add my name to the Hervey Bay Keep in Touch List.
>
>afryer@light.iinet.net.au
>
>Has Deborah Houlding done a Horary to find out when she is coming back to
>Australia?

Added - I'll email a complete list when everyone's on it -

I don't know - perhaps you should do the horary and Deb the electional! How
about it Deb? I did an "introductory" with my students the other day and
they are very sad that they have to wait so long for more - there's 30 avid
and potential turncoat psychological astrologers here.

Linda Reid
>
>
>
>
>



Thread: Genealogy & horary
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 05:09:11 -0800

Can we see the chart, Joan? Sounds interesting.

Sue

>Census, name searches...more microfilms...more microfiche...dead
>ends...frustration...lamenting...is he or is he not related!
>Backtracking for anyone who could confirm this has passed, their
>decendents don't know (or are very private!!!) and other sources
>have been destroyed due to wars, disasters etc. etc.
>A horary question as a possible genealogy confirmation
>tool? Well, why not - gave it a try, and, much to my delight, with
>favourable results! True, one chart does not a precedent make but
>for this query, by following Mr. Lilly's criteria - it afforded the
>desired result! The three tie-in confirmers were there and ruler
>hour also agreed! The relationship between the grand-uncle, the
>great-granduncle and the great-grandfather were confirmed!
>..happiness is... ; )
>===joane
>
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Hervey Bay
From: Anne Fryer <afryer@light.iinet.net.au> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 04:44:04 -0800

Please add my name to the Hervey Bay Keep in Touch List.

afryer@light.iinet.net.au

Has Deborah Houlding done a Horary to find out when she is coming back to
Australia?




Thread: Question to Mr.Allen
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 04:01:42 -0800

Mail received, thank you.


Thread: Genealogy & horary
From: "joane" <joane@mail.cadvision.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:12:28 -0800

Census, name searches...more microfilms...more microfiche...dead
ends...frustration...lamenting...is he or is he not related!
Backtracking for anyone who could confirm this has passed, their
decendents don't know (or are very private!!!) and other sources
have been destroyed due to wars, disasters etc. etc.
A horary question as a possible genealogy confirmation
tool? Well, why not - gave it a try, and, much to my delight, with
favourable results! True, one chart does not a precedent make but
for this query, by following Mr. Lilly's criteria - it afforded the
desired result! The three tie-in confirmers were there and ruler
hour also agreed! The relationship between the grand-uncle, the
great-granduncle and the great-grandfather were confirmed!
..happiness is... ; )
===joane


Thread: Hervey Bay
From: Sylvia Wilson <sylviaw@powerup.com.au> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 02:42:37 -0800
Status: U

Linda and Lyn

You have my email address sylviaw@powerup.com.au
So far Chris, Cyndi and Cheryl that I know of are now on email, plus Ann and
I think they have all subscribed to this list. If they haven't I will email
them privately and ask them to send you their addresses.

>From the Sunshine State and boy is it hot here!

Sylv



Thread: HERVEY BAY
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 00:38:54 -0800
Status: U



Would delegates from Hervey Bay please list their
email addresses so that we can keep in touch.
I believe a number have gotten on the net since then.


Linda Reid canopus@tassie.net.au
Lyn Dickson canopus@tassie.net.au
Deborah Houlding 101572.1131@compuserve.com


Dear Linda and Lyn

Having recommended everyone to join the Lilly list, I've now found time to
resubscribe so I've added my address to your list. I've been trying to find
your email number so that I can keep in touch.

Hope you are both well.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Deb



Thread: HERVEY BAY
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:24:49 -0800


Would delegates from Hervey Bay please list their
email addresses so that we can keep in touch.
I believe a number have gotten on the net since then.


Linda Reid canopus@tassie.net.au
Lyn Dickson canopus@tassie.net.au




Thread: Considerations before Judgement
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:13:47 -0800

Tony wrote:

>Sue,
>
>Let me clarfiy what I meant by leniency. Lilly says in various places that
>the considerations before judgment are used to determine whether the chart is
>fit or safe to judge. Presumably the presence of certain of the consideratons
>means that the chart is unfit or unsafe to judge. Barbara Watters read this
>as a "stricture against judgment" and I believe jusitifiably so. By
>whitewash, I simply meant that in your objection to the concept of a
>"stricture" you were being more lenient that the literal text where Lilly
>describes the considerations as meaning that the chart was unfit for judgment.

Ok. He mentions the Considerations on page 121 and he precedes this by
saying: "All the Ancients that have wrote about Questions, doe give warning
to the Astrologer, that before he deliver judgment he well consider whether
the Figure is radicall and capable of judgment;..."

This is a report, this is not necessarily Lilly's own thoughts on the
subject. My work on these matters showed that he took a broader brush than
the above passage would allow. So, in terms of dictionary definitions and
the general understanding of the word 'stricture' his attitude contradicts it.

>I think the idea of a stricture is valuable because it forces up to have a
>valid reason to proceed with the chart despite the presence of the stricture.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Most of us have no idea what these
Considerations mean, much less how to mitigate them when they arise. For
example, how many times do we use the phrase 'nothing will come of it' when
confronted with a void of course Moon. Yet how many astrologers know what
Lilly actually meant by void of course in a technical sense? He never used
this phrase and I doubt that anyone who had to work on a chart for a missing
person would say that'nothing would come of it' if they found the Moon in
that condition. But more of this, perhaps, on another occasion.

>If this is what you mean by calling the considerations "guidelines", then we
>are in complete agreement. My concern about calling them "guidelines" is that
>beginners may get the impression that they are merely guidelines and can
>readily be ignored. I am fairly certain that you do not view them this way
>nor did Lilly.

My essay on the subject makes my position clear on this: the Considerations
should always be noted and the reasons for their appearance found before
proceeding. They are often very illuminating and sometimes can answer the
question almost without much further reference.

What grieves me is that in my early years with horary, I threw away charts
that had one or more of them operating. I will never do that again.

I think that one further point needs to be made. If you use Lilly's method,
as I do, then his attitude to the Considerations can be adopted, but if you
are using another methodm then you might be wiser to be more cautious. It's
a bit like putting a Ford engine into a Ferrari chassis - what would you expect?

>We may be involved in a long discussion of semantics.

I don't think this is the case. We must spend time understanding the
language we use, particularly when it is technical language, if we are to
use the techniques it describes appropriately and fully.

>Fondly,
>
>Tony

Regards


Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Infected kidney
From: Despina Giannakopoulou <despinag@hol.gr> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:04:30 -0800

Hi everybody
Being a horary student who has not yet reached the last lessons which I
think concern medical question,I am in a quandry about the following chart.
A good friend of mine asked me fervently about her baby who suffers from
a very severe infection of the kidneys. One of his kidneys functions at
the moment at 20% capacity.The doctors said if the function drops to 10%
capacity he will have to have a kidney transplant. The baby was born on
6/6/1995 in Athens, Greece, 9:50am (-3) 23E46, 37N56, EED(Eastern
Europ.Daylight)
In his natal chart his combust Mercury is in partil square to his Moon
and his ASC in the same degrees of the Nodes.
Now the hor.question I was asked by his mother was:
Will the kidney of my son Alexandros be removed?
Nov.25.1996 Athens, Greece,01:45:00pm EET (-2)
023E46 37N56

The first thing I noticed on the hor.chart was the hor.Mars was in partill
conjunction with his natal Moon.
The chart is valid since we have Moon hour same nature of the asc rising.
No other strictures. The mother is represened by Jupiter and the baby by
the Moon,the child's Asc in the chart.Moon peregrine -3 in his 11th house
just separated by an opposition of the Sun and going into a sinister square
with the slow peregrine Mars.Venus ruler of Libra represanting kidneys
is peregrine,in fall,in 2 degees Scorpio,angular in the child`s 4thhouse
(derived chart). Mars in this chart is in the triplicityof Venus and face
of Venus.As we know from the legendary Greek physisian Hippocrates(c.5th-4thBC)
the choleric nature of Mars is "pyr"meaning fire.Due to the horary course I
am taking I had to go through Lilly s C.A.and I stopped at his medical
charts p.268and p.289. As we know during LILLY`s era , he did not make
any references concerning removal of human organs ,but the only reference
I have found is in Dorotheus of Sidon p. 315(P,152 v39).In Lilly C.A.119
there is a table of signs, planets, and parts of the body , he has kideneys
assigned to Cancer and Libra and the planet Kronos , Saturn . In the horary
chart Saturn is in the face of Mars in fall and perregrine total -8.
In the Horary chart Saturn rules the 7th house and is posited in his 9th
house retrograde(The family will fly to the States on the 22nd January)
for a medical diagnosis. It is remarkable that Saturn in his natal chart
is posited in his 9th house and in Astrocaartography is passing through
London and the family rejected the suggestioin of going there for a medical
diagnosis.)
I have also been through the two issues of Horary Practitioiner N.13 and 14
for more information also the medical index for C.A. an Index of herbs from
LLILLY AND Culpepper.
Mars is the ruler of the 4th house, End of the Matter in the derived chart.
no fixed stars in the chart , and no antiscions.
Is there anybody out there who can give me any suggestions that would help
me a lot. Thank you very much and I an looking forward to hearing from you.
Despina.



Thread: Considerations before Judgement
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:06:15 -0800

Sue,

Let me clarfiy what I meant by leniency. Lilly says in various places that
the considerations before judgment are used to determine whether the chart is
fit or safe to judge. Presumably the presence of certain of the consideratons
means that the chart is unfit or unsafe to judge. Barbara Watters read this
as a "stricture against judgment" and I believe jusitifiably so. By
whitewash, I simply meant that in your objection to the concept of a
"stricture" you were being more lenient that the literal text where Lilly
describes the considerations as meaning that the chart was unfit for judgment.

I think the idea of a stricture is valuable because it forces up to have a
valid reason to proceed with the chart despite the presence of the stricture.
If this is what you mean by calling the considerations "guidelines", then we
are in complete agreement. My concern about calling them "guidelines" is that
beginners may get the impression that they are merely guidelines and can
readily be ignored. I am fairly certain that you do not view them this way
nor did Lilly.

We may be involved in a long discussion of semantics.

Fondly,

Tony

>>>>>>>>
----------
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 1996 6:09 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Considerations before Judgement

Tony

I don't recall ever drawing a hard and fast conclusion about Lilly's
attitude to the Considerations Before Judgement, so 'leniency' never came
into it. I did not 'interpret' the Considerations. What I tried to do was
reply to Maurice McCann who had drawn conclusions quite the opposite of yours.

My research took a great deal of time and brought out some surprising
results - surprising to me, that is. Your suggestion of 'leniency' suggests
that I was letting Lilly off the hook in some way and I don't understand
that at all. I also had the benefit of studying two of his daily workbooks,
because there was always the likelihood that someone would accuse him of
cleaning up his act for publication (some still do).

I think that it should also be remembered that to a certain extent he was
simply carrying on the tradition of his time. His declared intention was to
put this body of knowledge down in plain English for the first time and to
rid astrology of some of its (in his opinion) more hare-brained theories.
Bear in mind that he spent some time trying to learn from a self-confessed
charlatan, this coloured his thinking considerably and, in my opinion, would
have supplied an excellent motive for putting it all down on paper.

His study of the ancients is testified to by the enormous size of the
bibliography in CA, plus his earlier credits to the likes of Dariot and
Ptolemy. So, CA is based on much earlier works (as was and is the tradition,
certainly in astrological writings), but he expressly states that the method
is his, although grown out of his studies of earlier and contemporary
authorities.

I apologise to everyone for going on so long, but I think this discussion
requires some background, at least.

In the first book, the Introduction, he provides basic rulerships and
'rules', these include the Considerations. In this book he repeats much of
the accepted wisdom - he doesn't necessarily agree with it, though. There
are many 'rules' that he quotes, but never uses and in some cases explicity
contradicts. For example, he gives us the system of significators in
marriage questions and includes the planet the Moon last separated from and
the one it next applies to as significators of the relevant parties. He then
says that he wholly disagrees with this system, then repeats these
significators in the chapter on 7th house matters, but never uses them.

In my research, I found that there were some of the quoted Considerations
that he never even mentioned in his chart examples, for example, Moon in the
Via Combusta. Saturn in the 1st, is used, too. His workbooks suggest that he
did not judge horaries when the Moon was in late degrees of Gemini, as
stated in the Considerations. He judged charts with Saturn in the 1st, the
Moon void (in his terms that is), the Moon in the Via Combusta, early and
late ascendants and when the planetary hour was not in accord by the three
stated means. BUT, there were either mitigating factors, or description from
these facets, or support from other areas. I can't subject everyone to the
tedium of going through it all again - the essay is at Carol's website
(http://www.horary.com) if you are interested, it is very long.

I can only present the evidence as I found it, I did not interpret it and I
repeat what I said at the end of my essay, that I do not think he saw them
as strictures, but that he allowed them to guide him. This is where my study
of his work led me, if this is a whitewash then I'm still confused and would
ask your help with this.

>Sue,
>
>By whitewash, I meant that Lilly seems to regard the considerations as
>strictures (limitations, confining parameters) but in your reading of Lilly,
>you are more lenient in your interpretation of the considerations.
>
>>>----------
>From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 2:27 PM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Considerations before Judgement
>
>>>I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by
>'whitewashes'?
>
Regards

Sue Ward
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com





Thread: 'Or' questions
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:05:48 -0800

Sue,

Regarding 'or' questions, my starting point was a post by Dorothy in which she
maintained that a late Ascendant could mean that the question itself was
invalid, namely, an "either/or" type question to choose between two options.

As you point out, Lilly did deal with relocation questions (should I stay or
move) and with contests (will A or B win the battle), so that they are in the
realm of traditional horary.

The problem comes with questions of the type: "Should I choose option A or
option B?" "should I buy the Chevy or the Cadillac?" "Should I move to
London or to Bombay?" As far as I know, traditional horary artists did not
give examples of the technique for choosing between two such options. The
modern technique of skipping houses is one method. There is a classical
technique of using day and night triplicity rulerships for the two options,
but I can find no example where Lilly used this method of triplicity
rulers.

My point was that horary does offer ways to choose between two options and
that such charts should not be considered invalid.

Tony

----------
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 1996 6:09 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: 'Or' questions

Dear Tony

>>>Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that traditional rulerships don't
>handle comparison questions and then that they do. I don't understand.
>
>I do think traditional rulerships can handle "or" questions, but Lilly to my

>best recollection did not describe his technique for handling such questions.


I suppose that depends on your definition of the use of 'or'. Eg. he gives
an example of whether to stay or go, in terms of the relocation of home or
business. Is that what you mean?

>I was objecting to regarding "or" questions as invalid inquiries for
>traditional methods.

Regards

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com





Thread: Job Interview
From: spica@world.net Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:04:38 -0800

Dear Linda
A couple of things about the chart. Without any agreement between the planetary
hour and the ascendant, and with the Moon in the 5th house which doesn't seem
relevant to the question unless the job is in a 5th house area, I'd want Aquarius to
cover the querent's physical description before I'd be happy with the chart.
The Moon void of course can be said to mean nothing comes of it.
Saturn being retrograde could mean the querent returns to their original position ie
the old job, not making a change.
I'd say it would be unsuccessful.
Anne Elliott
Spica Publications



Thread: Considerations before Judgement
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:07:49 -0800

Tony

I don't recall ever drawing a hard and fast conclusion about Lilly's
attitude to the Considerations Before Judgement, so 'leniency' never came
into it. I did not 'interpret' the Considerations. What I tried to do was
reply to Maurice McCann who had drawn conclusions quite the opposite of yours.

My research took a great deal of time and brought out some surprising
results - surprising to me, that is. Your suggestion of 'leniency' suggests
that I was letting Lilly off the hook in some way and I don't understand
that at all. I also had the benefit of studying two of his daily workbooks,
because there was always the likelihood that someone would accuse him of
cleaning up his act for publication (some still do).

I think that it should also be remembered that to a certain extent he was
simply carrying on the tradition of his time. His declared intention was to
put this body of knowledge down in plain English for the first time and to
rid astrology of some of its (in his opinion) more hare-brained theories.
Bear in mind that he spent some time trying to learn from a self-confessed
charlatan, this coloured his thinking considerably and, in my opinion, would
have supplied an excellent motive for putting it all down on paper.

His study of the ancients is testified to by the enormous size of the
bibliography in CA, plus his earlier credits to the likes of Dariot and
Ptolemy. So, CA is based on much earlier works (as was and is the tradition,
certainly in astrological writings), but he expressly states that the method
is his, although grown out of his studies of earlier and contemporary
authorities.

I apologise to everyone for going on so long, but I think this discussion
requires some background, at least.

In the first book, the Introduction, he provides basic rulerships and
'rules', these include the Considerations. In this book he repeats much of
the accepted wisdom - he doesn't necessarily agree with it, though. There
are many 'rules' that he quotes, but never uses and in some cases explicity
contradicts. For example, he gives us the system of significators in
marriage questions and includes the planet the Moon last separated from and
the one it next applies to as significators of the relevant parties. He then
says that he wholly disagrees with this system, then repeats these
significators in the chapter on 7th house matters, but never uses them.

In my research, I found that there were some of the quoted Considerations
that he never even mentioned in his chart examples, for example, Moon in the
Via Combusta. Saturn in the 1st, is used, too. His workbooks suggest that he
did not judge horaries when the Moon was in late degrees of Gemini, as
stated in the Considerations. He judged charts with Saturn in the 1st, the
Moon void (in his terms that is), the Moon in the Via Combusta, early and
late ascendants and when the planetary hour was not in accord by the three
stated means. BUT, there were either mitigating factors, or description from
these facets, or support from other areas. I can't subject everyone to the
tedium of going through it all again - the essay is at Carol's website
(http://www.horary.com) if you are interested, it is very long.

I can only present the evidence as I found it, I did not interpret it and I
repeat what I said at the end of my essay, that I do not think he saw them
as strictures, but that he allowed them to guide him. This is where my study
of his work led me, if this is a whitewash then I'm still confused and would
ask your help with this.

>Sue,
>
>By whitewash, I meant that Lilly seems to regard the considerations as
>strictures (limitations, confining parameters) but in your reading of Lilly,
>you are more lenient in your interpretation of the considerations.
>
>>>----------
>From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 2:27 PM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Considerations before Judgement
>
>>>I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by
>'whitewashes'?
>
Regards

Sue Ward
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: 'Or' questions
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:07:44 -0800

Dear Tony

>>>Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that traditional rulerships don't
>handle comparison questions and then that they do. I don't understand.
>
>I do think traditional rulerships can handle "or" questions, but Lilly to my
>best recollection did not describe his technique for handling such questions.

I suppose that depends on your definition of the use of 'or'. Eg. he gives
an example of whether to stay or go, in terms of the relocation of home or
business. Is that what you mean?

>I was objecting to regarding "or" questions as invalid inquiries for
>traditional methods.

Regards

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Job Interview
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:36:57 -0800



This is one of those badly phrased questions. It was handed om a slip of
paper to one of my natal students at 11.17 am Nov 27 1996 in Devonport Tas.
41South11 146East21. The note read " Will my Job Interview be Successful".

We are unsure whether to use the 10th house ruler and read the question as
will I get the job, or to use the 7th house ruler as the prospective
employer and interviewer.

The chart has 18 Aqu16 rising, Saturn ruler 00Ar39 Rx nicely trined by Sun
( ruler of 7th) but Saturn peregrine, from the 10th house but with Mars
ruling the 10th house and Mars in the 8th, squared by Sun. PF is conj Mars
and part of profession is trine Mars - a lot of conflicting messages. Moon
1t 26Gem41 opposes Mercury in the 11th at 18 Sagg 50 and is void of course.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Linda




Thread: My water test
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:52:24 -0800

We await your results with bated breath.

Tony

----------
From: jmetz
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 1996 6:57 AM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: my water test

Hi Tony and all-I will have answers by Dec 2 when the retest is done and
the results are in. I am losing money on this house already so it makes
a bad situation a worse one. Thank you for your input. I do apprecciate
it and I'll let you know!






Thread: Considerations before Judgement
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:47:51 -0800

Sue,

By whitewash, I meant that Lilly seems to regard the considerations as
strictures (limitations, confining parameters) but in your reading of Lilly,
you are more lenient in your interpretation of the considerations.

>>----------
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 2:27 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Considerations before Judgement

>>I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by
'whitewashes'?

>>Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that traditional rulerships don't
handle comparison questions and then that they do. I don't understand.

I do think traditional rulerships can handle "or" questions, but Lilly to my
best recollection did not describe his technique for handling such questions.
I was objecting to regarding "or" questions as invalid inquiries for
traditional methods.

Best wishes,

Tony


Thread: Water test
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:25:24 -0800

Dear Thomas

>sueward@easynet.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >>If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules
>> >>the sea and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish,
>> >>springs, fish ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is
>> >>stagnant water, and smelly places.

>Sue,
> On your Rulerships I disagree through experience not books.
>But then most do believe what they read these days, I was taught as a
>child to believe nothing of what I read and only half of what I see.
>In alchemy pure elixir is 0 cancer and or the fourth house cusp, fresh
>water is akin to that.
> Blessings, Thomas

I was merely quoting the traditionally accepted rulerships, since this is a
traditional list, not decrying what you wrote.

On your other point, we accept traditional rulerships because they worked
through by our forebears (particularly Lilly) and they have proved
themselves time and again in our practices. It is not simply a question of
believing what we read.

I am sorry if I caused any offence, it was not my intention.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Considerations before Judgement
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:25:23 -0800

Dear Tony

Tony wrote:

>Dear Carol and Dorothy,
>
>Just some thoughts about late ascendants, "strictures", and "OR" questions.

>I respect and appreciate Sue's ideas about considerations but I do think she
>whitewashes Lilly a bit regarding this matter. He is very clear in saying
>that the considerations tell us whether a chart is "fit to be judged". If a
>consideration is present, Lilly regards the chart as unfit for judgment -- at
>least that what he tells us. Now, that does sound like a stricture, doesn't
>it? I don't see the word stricture as negative, it is simply a constraint
>that limits our behavior.

I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by 'whitewashes'?

>Lilly did not answer "or" questions, and my guess is that he did not have a
>technique for them. Modern techniques include skipping houses. In addition,
>we do use traditional methods to analyze the outcome of contests, lawsuits,
>etc, where there is an implicit "either-or" situation. One of two people can
>win a dispute or contest. We can answer questions with two possible
>outcomes.

Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that traditional rulerships don't
handle comparison questions and then that they do. I don't understand.

Regards

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: A horary question
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:05:16 -0800

Fellow listers,

I could use some help with a personal horary question. I find it's hard to be
objective about my own concerns. Here it is:

On Saturday 23 NOV 96 at 3:06 pm est (tz 5), 73w04, 41n16, I asked, "Should I
change my insurance policy?" I have the chance to pay substantially less for
a different policy, but the coverage would not be as good. Is this a wise
move? or should I stick with what I have?

Tony


Thread: School-horary
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:05:29 -0800

Dorothy,

I also generally avoid "or" questions but I do believe that they are
answerable from horary charts.

What would rule murder? A good question. I would look for a square from an
afflicted Mars and also (forgive me) at the modern planet Pluto which appears
to be connected to the underworld of crime. I believe that traditionally
horary used Mars for murder. Maybe others on the list have more experience
with murder charts.

Tony

----------
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 1996 6:05 PM
To: Tony_ Lab
Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: RE: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary

Dear Tony,

Very interesting technique. Still for myself I am going to continue to
discourage "or" questions. It just sets me off in too many directions. I
prefer that the querent focus one or the other. your insights will help me
if ever I fall off that rule again. Tell me in my murder or suicide
question, my sense is ruler of the 12th for suicide where would you what
would rule murder? The 8th would be death in general, what would you look
for violent planets in violent signs? But he could have blownhis own brains
out? Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain a bit and thanks again
for your insights.

fondly,
dorothy
dstar@mcn.org


Thread: School-horary
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:12:44 -0800


Carol,

The message below was rude and inappropriate. I would be embarassed to have
this person as a student, and I don't think this kind of message is
appropriate for this list.

Tony L.
=================================================

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Hi
I have just been reading this boring post. It seems you guys can't do a
horary chart. Astrologer Thomas Seers, AMAFA, taught us how to do horary in
class. Mind you that Astrologer Thomas Seers only teaches his
students by using the 7 planets. Tells us not to read anything published
after 1950's when someone decided to confuse and destroy Astrology by
changing the rulership of scropio, pisces & aquarius. William Lilly
happens to be one Mr. Seers favorative Astrologers because he recomends us to
get his books. I have all of Lilly's books (well most of them).
Mr. Seers spoiled us, his students, because we now are out into the world
and are finding that astrologers don't know how to use this scientific
tool. No wonder I call him the Awesome Astrologer. No I am not into
Idol worship--don't even Idolize what's his name -- oh yeah Jessus
Christ.
I enjoy these post because now I know Mr. Seers made us monsters of
astrology and this is all blah blah, theories and phiolosphy are
nonsense. Oh yeah what the hell does sidreal have to do with horary in
william lilly rules.
It is simple and direct just like Mr. Seers taught us in horary and
nothing more.
I can't stand the ignorance in Astrology any more so I am unscribing.



----------
From: toni telo
Sent: Monday, November 25, 1996 4:04 PM
To: Tony_ Lab
Subject: Re: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary

Carol,

The message below was rude. I don't think this kind of message is appropriate
for this list.

Tony L.
=========================

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Hi
I have just been reading this boring post. It seems you guys can't do a
horary chart. Astrologer Thomas Seers, AMAFA, taught us how to do horary in
class. Mind you that Astrologer Thomas Seers only teaches his
students by using the 7 planets. Tells us not to read anything published
after 1950's when someone decided to confuse and destroy Astrology by
changing the rulership of scropio, pisces & aquarius. William Lilly
happens to be one Mr. Seers favorative Astrologers because he recomends us to
get his books. I have all of Lilly's books (well most of them).
Mr. Seers spoiled us, his students, because we now are out into the world
and are finding that astrologers don't know how to use this scientific
tool. No wonder I call him the Awesome Astrologer. No I am not into
Idol worship--don't even Idolize what's his name -- oh yeah Jessus
Christ.
I enjoy these post because now I know Mr. Seers made us monsters of
astrology and this is all blah blah, theories and phiolosphy are
nonsense. Oh yeah what the hell does sidreal have to do with horary in
william lilly rules.
It is simple and direct just like Mr. Seers taught us in horary and
nothing more.
I can't stand the ignorance in Astrology any more so I am unscribing.



Thread: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary
From: Matthew Wilson <matthew@flash.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:57:14 -0800

>I will often refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th
>house is badly placed, ie combust, (learned that the hard way)

Would the 7th placed in its sign of fall be grounds for refusal ?

>or if
>there are more that one consideration present, late ascendent ruler,

What do you mean late Asc ruler ?

>both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R inthe 1st..then I would be
>extremely cautious.

Saturn retrograde in 7th ?

>
>hope this is helpful.
>
>Fondly,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org
>
>
>>> Kent,
>>>
>>> I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based
>>> on a horary chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient
>>> considerations generally work as a warning.
>>>
>>> What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?
>>>
>>> Tony
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> ----------
>>
>>Hi,
>> First I would want to see the chart, but if as you say 28 degrees is
>> on
>>the ASC that is a stricture against judgement. On that basis I used
>>to change the venue at my horary class and discuss general astrology.
>> Horary is short and sweet, No delineation is the statement of 28
>>degrees.
>> Blessings, Thomas
>>--
>> **************************************************
>> Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
>> P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
>> Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
>> Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
>> **************************************************
>>
>>==================================
>>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>>software and horary consultations
>>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>>http://www.horary.com
>>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>>
>>
>
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919

--
Matthew Wilson


Thread: "Great Spirits have always encountered violent opposition
From: gingerk7@juno.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:03:29 -0800

HELLO FELLOW SPIRITS OF LIFE,

THIS IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF NOMINATION FOR THE

TITTLE OF KNIGHTHOOD OF "SIR GREAT SPIRIT" of the Year

1996


"GREAT SPIRITS have ALWAYS encountered violent opposition
from MEDIOCRE MINDS." by ALBERT EINSTEIN

I GINGER K.
being of sound mind and Repersentive of " 'THE' GREAT SPIRIT of LIFE "

DO HERE BY ACKNOWLEDGE & NOMINATE According To

"THE WISHES of 'THE' GREAT SPIRIT" (as expressed through me)

FOR The Tittle of " SIR GREAT SPIRIT" TO the Following:

1: " GREAT SPIRIT": DR. GONZALO PENA TAMEZ"

2: "GREAT SPIRIT THOMAS SEER"

3 : "GREAT SPIRIT JULIENNE MULLETTE"

4 : "GREAT SPIRIT CAROLYN M. EGAN"

5: "GREAT SPIRIT JOHN SOMOZO"

6: "GREAT SPIRIT LYNDA HILL"

7: "GREAT SPIRIT JAN J. ELKINS"

8: "GREAT SPIRIT MEADENESS"

9: "GREAT SPIRIT CHRIS TURNER"

10: "GREAT SPIRIT BETTE DENLINGER"

11: "GREAT SPIRIT CAROL A. WIGGERS"

12: "GREAT SPIRIT BARB NOVAK"


ANYONE ELSE CARE TO MAKE ANY NOMINATIONS? IF ALL AGREE

MAYBE RIGHT AFTER CHRISMAS AND BEFORE NEW YEAR WE CAN

ALL CAST SOME VOTES FOR THE NIGHTHOOD of SIR GREAT SPIRIT
OF THE YEAR. ANY FUTHER COMMENT OR IDEAS?

LOVE AND LIGHT,

GINGER K. GingerK7@juno.com




Thread: [CAREER,Crisis of confidence]
From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (be94bmp) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 05:43:12 -0800

Hi All,

I know this isn't strictly horary [I apologise for this] but I'm having a
real crisis of confidence and I'm really starting to question my career
choices. At the moment I'm still at uni. and in my final year studying
mechanical engineering. The thing is, just this morning the fact that I'm
graduating this June has just dawned on me and I don't know what to do! I
deeply wish to be an astrologer - research excites me no end - but I really
don't know what sort of lifestyle a typical astrologer leads. What's a
typical day - if there is such a thing? How does one plan one's day?Finance?
Further training? I've been studying astrology in all its forms for just over
a year now.
I also want to be a writer,poet,healer and to carry out the Work. A fellow
astrologer here in England suggested that because I had Neptune in my third
and Pluto would be transiting this house until well into next century I
could be a writer, which is nice to know, but I'm more in the dark about my
astrological and healing roles.Natally speaking,my rising sign is 9 degrees
Libra with Venus and Pluto (close to asc.) both in the 1st. My Sun and Merc.
are in Sag in the 2nd, Jupiter is in the 7th with Chiron, and Moon is in
11th (that of the astrologer) in Virgo.Saturn sits in the 10th in Leo.
If anyone can give me any ideas, particularly those who are pro's who have
had experience of working for a living in astrology, I would be deeply
grateful.

Namaste!
Ben



Thread: School-horary
From: Hideaki Kokubu <kokubu@est.co.jp> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:39:25 -0800

kent lambert wrote:

> With 28 degrees rising I thought I might have made up my mind and was
> fooling myself or I may have no choice because of my financial
> situation.

In my experience, I feel the ascendant sometimes fell upon the late
degrees when the querent asked about a matter trespassing on his/her
right.

For example, I had a trouble with my landlord about 6 or 7 years ago,
and asked myself, "What will come out?" I erected a chart and found
the ascendant was 29 degrees, it had no connection with my natal chart
and I was not 29 years old. But the chart described the situation
beautifully, and I judged I would stay, without discarding the chart.

After all, I realized there was no need to do horary, for the landlord
can't ask his tenant to move without good reason by law - he was asking
me to do so. I could have known the outcome without a chart, if I knew
the law.

I hope this makes sense.

Regards,

Hideaki


Thread: A new mystery...
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:32:00 -0800

Dear Tony,
Here it is, by the way I must say, I am so grateful that you love horary as
much as I. Because you actually do the charts. It really makes this list so
much more exciting with you here.

with love and respect,
Dorothy

At 01:14 AM 9/17/96 UT, you wrote:
>RE: ," Was it murder, or was it suicide?"
>
>Dorothy,
>
>I am new to the Lilly list so I hope I'm following protocol here. You gave
>two sets of data 1995 and 1996 with differing latitudes. I used the 1996
>data.
>
>Querent = Aries ASC = Mars.
>Querent's boyfriend = Libra DSC = Venus.
>
>Boyfriend's brother = 3rd of 7th, or 9th = Sagittarius = Jupiter at 8
>Capricorn in 10th conjunct the fixed star Facies, suggesting a violent death.
>My hunch is that the violent nature of his death is what so upset her. Facies
>also suggests the the deceased was feeling isolated and cut off from others.
>
>Jupiter is departing by 4 degrees from a square to Saturn in radical 12th
>suggesting suicide perhaps by falling or a crushing blow about 4 years earlier
>(1992). Saturn rules the radical 10th (containing Jupiter), the 11th and
>12th, connecting the brother with the radical 12th of self-undoing.
>
>Moon is in late Libra and Via combust, perhaps indicating the brother's
>confused state of mind. Moon is also separating from a square of Neptune by
>4 degrees suggesting a state of confusion or inner turmoil 4 years prior
>(1992).
>
>Thanks for this interesting chart. I look forward to learning more about it.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Tony
>
> Murder or suicide
> 15 Sep 1996
> 8.00 P.M. (7)
> 123.41 WEST
> 39.55 NORTH
> 18H 26M 38S
> Regiomontanus
> 25 CPR 06 CPR 17 SAG
>
> * JU08Cpr * *
>
> UR00Aqu NE25Cpr *
>
> * * *
>
> 24 AQU * 23 SCO
>
> * * * * *
>
> * * PL00Sag *
>
> SA04Ari * * * * *
>
> SN08Ari * * *
>
> * * ** * ** * *
>
> * *
>
> * * MO29Lib
>
> 11 ARI ****************** ******************* 11 LIB
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * * ** * ** * * NN08Lib
>
> * * * ME26Vir
>
> PF17Tau * * * * * SU23Vir
>
> * * *
>
> * * * * *
>
> 23 TAU * 24 LEO
>
> * * * VE09Leo
>
> * MA03Leo
>
> * * *
>
> 17 GEM 06 CAN 25 CAN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Thread: School-horary
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:24:09 -0800

Dorothy,

I can't locate the data for the murder/suicide chart. Can you send them
again?

Tony
>>>>>>>>
----------
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 1996 6:05 PM
To: Tony_ Lab
Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: RE: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary

Dear Tony,

Very interesting technique. Still for myself I am going to continue to
discourage "or" questions. It just sets me off in too many directions. I
prefer that the querent focus one or the other. your insights will help me
if ever I fall off that rule again. Tell me in my murder or suicide
question, my sense is ruler of the 12th for suicide where would you what
would rule murder? The 8th would be death in general, what would you look
for violent planets in violent signs? But he could have blownhis own brains
out? Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain a bit and thanks again
for your insights.

fondly,
dorothy
dstar@mcn.org

>Lilly did not answer "or" questions, and my guess is that he did not have a
>technique for them.

Modern techniques include skipping houses. In addition,
>we do use traditional methods to analyze the outcome of contests, lawsuits,
>etc, where there is an implicit "either-or" situation. One of two people can

>win a dispute or contest. We can answer questions with two possible
>outcomes.
>
>In Kent's question he was asking about continuing college (a 9th house
matter)
>or focusing more on work and career (a 10th house matter) as he studied in
>college only part-time. One could look at the 9th and 10th houses, compare
>their significators, and make a judgment about which is more propitious at
>this time. In this chart, 10th ruler Venus is well-placed and dignified, but

>is not applying to any significant aspects with his significators or any
other
>planets (so, is void of course). I thought that the Moon sextile 9th ruler
>Mercury, and Mars in the 9th trine AScendant ruler Jupiter were arguments to
>complete his college degree full time. However, with Venus so well dignified

>and sextile the Ascendant, I think his decision will work out fine.
>
>Tony
>
>>>>>>>>>
>----------
>From: Carol A. Wiggers
>Sent: Saturday, November 23, 1996 11:50 PM
>To: Members
>Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:03:36 -0700
>To: Fellow Listers <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>
>Subject: (Fwd) Re: school-horary
>
>Dear Fellow Listers,
>
>Tony asked for comments on Kent's situation, with regards to his
>school question where late degrees were rising. Sometimes the manner
>in which we ask a question, can be the culprit. Some months back I
>posted a question; murder OR suicide? about the circumstances
>surrounding the death of an american business man in Russia. Deb
>Houlding graciously pointed out that the nature of the question was
>suspect.
>
>Kent's question was:
>"Should I continue my education...OR cut back my hours...to study
>horary?" 11/20/1996 8:55am cst (6) 90w12, 32n18.
>
>Using the complete co-ordinates for Jackson Mississippi,(kent give us
>complete co-ordinates,please!) one of the considerations, late degrees
>rises with 27 sag 45 on the ascendent.
>
>When one asks a question with a OR in it, it is very difficult to
>understand where to put the quesited. Simply asking one question
>without other options, to confuse the situation works best. I am
>grateful to Deborah for reminding me of this.
>
>With regards to the term "strictures". Lee Lehman researched the word
>"stricture" to find it's point of origin in the astrological
>vernacular. Low and behold, this term is not at all classical. She
>found it originated only 23 years ago. The term was first used in
>'Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events' by Barbara Watters as a
>chapter heading. It just caught on.
>
>I prefer brilliant astrologer and tenacious researcher Sue Ward's
>definition of the 'Considerations before Judgement', "Traditional
>astrology has a set of established principles which act as a 'guide of
>action and procedure' and offer a 'standard' to aim for" (Horary
>Practioner #16 p.11).She points out that the dictionary defines
>stricture as a 'censure'. "...disapproval is implied. So in this sense
>a stricture would be like a rebuke"(HP#16p.11).
>
>Personally I find the term 'strictures' very negative and misleading.
>In Lilly's time the so called 'strictures' were known as,
>'Considerations before Judgment', or whether the chart was 'radical
>and fit to be judged'. I beleieve that the considerations act as Sue
>says; as 'guidelines' or warnings to the astrologer before she/he
>proceeds. It doesn't mean you can't take the question, just that there
>is something to keep a discerning eye out for. Maybe your not getting
>all the info, or the question has been asked incorrectly (that OR) or
>has been asked (and answered) before; maybe some one is just not at
>all serious about the question; maybe giving the answer would be
>damaging to the client; or maybe the question is just plain over the
>astrologer's head.
>
>I have judged charts with early/late degrees, void moons, Saturn in
>the 1st, etc. The main thrust of whether I will take a chart is, 'does
>the chart reflect the situation'? Does the ascendent ruler describe
>the querent? When there are considerations present, I will try to
>figure out why. I will often refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th
>house is badly placed, ie combust, (learned that the hard way) or if
>there are more that one consideration present, late ascendent ruler,
>both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R inthe 1st..then I would be
>extremely cautious.
>
>hope this is helpful.
>
>Fondly,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org
>
>
>




Thread: Water test
From: Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:53:09 -0800

sueward@easynet.co.uk wrote:
>
> >>
> >>If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules
> >>the sea and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish,
> >>springs, fish ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is
> >>stagnant water, and smelly places.
> >>
> >>Sue
> >
> >Only bad smells, or do we also count some nice smells...?
> >
> >Julienne
> >
> Only if you like nasty niffs, Julienne - but then it takes all sorts!
>
> Sue
> The Traditional Horary Course
> sueward@easynet.co.uk
> http://www.horary.com

Sue,
On your Rulerships I disagree through experience not books.
But then most do believe what they read these days, I was taught as a
child to believe nothing of what I read and only half of what I see.
In alchemy pure elixir is 0 cancer and or the fourth house cusp, fresh
water is akin to that.
Blessings, Thomas
--
**************************************************
Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
**************************************************


Thread: School-horary
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:05:45 -0800

Dear Tony,

Very interesting technique. Still for myself I am going to continue to
discourage "or" questions. It just sets me off in too many directions. I
prefer that the querent focus one or the other. your insights will help me
if ever I fall off that rule again. Tell me in my murder or suicide
question, my sense is ruler of the 12th for suicide where would you what
would rule murder? The 8th would be death in general, what would you look
for violent planets in violent signs? But he could have blownhis own brains
out? Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain a bit and thanks again
for your insights.

fondly,
dorothy
dstar@mcn.org

>Lilly did not answer "or" questions, and my guess is that he did not have a
>technique for them.

Modern techniques include skipping houses. In addition,
>we do use traditional methods to analyze the outcome of contests, lawsuits,
>etc, where there is an implicit "either-or" situation. One of two people can
>win a dispute or contest. We can answer questions with two possible
>outcomes.
>
>In Kent's question he was asking about continuing college (a 9th house matter)
>or focusing more on work and career (a 10th house matter) as he studied in
>college only part-time. One could look at the 9th and 10th houses, compare
>their significators, and make a judgment about which is more propitious at
>this time. In this chart, 10th ruler Venus is well-placed and dignified, but
>is not applying to any significant aspects with his significators or any other
>planets (so, is void of course). I thought that the Moon sextile 9th ruler
>Mercury, and Mars in the 9th trine AScendant ruler Jupiter were arguments to
>complete his college degree full time. However, with Venus so well dignified
>and sextile the Ascendant, I think his decision will work out fine.
>
>Tony
>
>>>>>>>>>
>----------
>From: Carol A. Wiggers
>Sent: Saturday, November 23, 1996 11:50 PM
>To: Members
>Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:03:36 -0700
>To: Fellow Listers <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>
>Subject: (Fwd) Re: school-horary
>
>Dear Fellow Listers,
>
>Tony asked for comments on Kent's situation, with regards to his
>school question where late degrees were rising. Sometimes the manner
>in which we ask a question, can be the culprit. Some months back I
>posted a question; murder OR suicide? about the circumstances
>surrounding the death of an american business man in Russia. Deb
>Houlding graciously pointed out that the nature of the question was
>suspect.
>
>Kent's question was:
>"Should I continue my education...OR cut back my hours...to study
>horary?" 11/20/1996 8:55am cst (6) 90w12, 32n18.
>
>Using the complete co-ordinates for Jackson Mississippi,(kent give us
>complete co-ordinates,please!) one of the considerations, late degrees
>rises with 27 sag 45 on the ascendent.
>
>When one asks a question with a OR in it, it is very difficult to
>understand where to put the quesited. Simply asking one question
>without other options, to confuse the situation works best. I am
>grateful to Deborah for reminding me of this.
>
>With regards to the term "strictures". Lee Lehman researched the word
>"stricture" to find it's point of origin in the astrological
>vernacular. Low and behold, this term is not at all classical. She
>found it originated only 23 years ago. The term was first used in
>'Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events' by Barbara Watters as a
>chapter heading. It just caught on.
>
>I prefer brilliant astrologer and tenacious researcher Sue Ward's
>definition of the 'Considerations before Judgement', "Traditional
>astrology has a set of established principles which act as a 'guide of
>action and procedure' and offer a 'standard' to aim for" (Horary
>Practioner #16 p.11).She points out that the dictionary defines
>stricture as a 'censure'. "...disapproval is implied. So in this sense
>a stricture would be like a rebuke"(HP#16p.11).
>
>Personally I find the term 'strictures' very negative and misleading.
>In Lilly's time the so called 'strictures' were known as,
>'Considerations before Judgment', or whether the chart was 'radical
>and fit to be judged'. I beleieve that the considerations act as Sue
>says; as 'guidelines' or warnings to the astrologer before she/he
>proceeds. It doesn't mean you can't take the question, just that there
>is something to keep a discerning eye out for. Maybe your not getting
>all the info, or the question has been asked incorrectly (that OR) or
>has been asked (and answered) before; maybe some one is just not at
>all serious about the question; maybe giving the answer would be
>damaging to the client; or maybe the question is just plain over the
>astrologer's head.
>
>I have judged charts with early/late degrees, void moons, Saturn in
>the 1st, etc. The main thrust of whether I will take a chart is, 'does
>the chart reflect the situation'? Does the ascendent ruler describe
>the querent? When there are considerations present, I will try to
>figure out why. I will often refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th
>house is badly placed, ie combust, (learned that the hard way) or if
>there are more that one consideration present, late ascendent ruler,
>both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R inthe 1st..then I would be
>extremely cautious.
>
>hope this is helpful.
>
>Fondly,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org
>
>
>



Thread: Water test
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:27:10 -0800

>>
>>If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules
>>the sea and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish,
>>springs, fish ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is
>>stagnant water, and smelly places.
>>
>>Sue
>
>Only bad smells, or do we also count some nice smells...?
>
>Julienne
>
Only if you like nasty niffs, Julienne - but then it takes all sorts!

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: School-horary
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:14:02 -0800

Tony wrote:

>Kent,
>
>I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based on a horary
>chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient considerations generally work as
>a warning.
>
>What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?

I'd be inclined to agree with this in general terms. Whilst it can sometimes
interpret as Kent suggests (see below), it can also show a change in the
near future, which can make the question irrelevant.

>From: kent lambert
>Sent: Thursday, November 21, 1996 3:59 PM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: school-horary
>
>Tony,
>
> I have Mercury sextile Neptune. Great for imagination but sometimes
>when it envolves me I look at it the way I want it to be not the way it
>is.
> With 28 degrees rising I thought I might have made up my mind and was
>fooling myself or I may have no choice because of my financial
>situation. Sag. rising; Jupiter significator. Moon cosignigicator.
>Higher education when mundane goes to the third house. More esoteric the
>nineth house. Here we have had some discussion about what house
>astrology falls under. Just thinking about it astrology goes beyond
>intellect (third house) to the higher mind (nineth house). I looked up
>astrology in THE RULERSHIP BOOK by Rex E. Bills. It gave the seventh as
>a secondary ruler but no house for a primary ruler.

The 9th is for knowledge or study of any kind. I don't believe there is any
need to separate elementary or advanced education. There is no house that
rules astrology as such, it is signified by Mercury which is thus known as
its natural ruler.

Hope this helps.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Coordinates
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 06:12:12 -0800

The only coordinates I have are round off to the nearest degree
`Kent


Thread: School-horary
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 05:51:29 -0800

Dear Carol and Dorothy,

Just some thoughts about late ascendants, "strictures", and "OR" questions.
I believe that in this case Kent had already made up his mind and was asking
the horary question as an afterthought or for confirmation of a decision
already made. Thus, the late Ascendant is descriptive. (Kent, correct me if
I misunderstood.)

I respect and appreciate Sue's ideas about considerations but I do think she
whitewashes Lilly a bit regarding this matter. He is very clear in saying
that the considerations tell us whether a chart is "fit to be judged". If a
consideration is present, Lilly regards the chart as unfit for judgment -- at
least that what he tells us. Now, that does sound like a stricture, doesn't
it? I don't see the word stricture as negative, it is simply a constraint
that limits our behavior.

Lilly did not answer "or" questions, and my guess is that he did not have a
technique for them. Modern techniques include skipping houses. In addition,
we do use traditional methods to analyze the outcome of contests, lawsuits,
etc, where there is an implicit "either-or" situation. One of two people can
win a dispute or contest. We can answer questions with two possible
outcomes.

In Kent's question he was asking about continuing college (a 9th house matter)
or focusing more on work and career (a 10th house matter) as he studied in
college only part-time. One could look at the 9th and 10th houses, compare
their significators, and make a judgment about which is more propitious at
this time. In this chart, 10th ruler Venus is well-placed and dignified, but
is not applying to any significant aspects with his significators or any other
planets (so, is void of course). I thought that the Moon sextile 9th ruler
Mercury, and Mars in the 9th trine AScendant ruler Jupiter were arguments to
complete his college degree full time. However, with Venus so well dignified
and sextile the Ascendant, I think his decision will work out fine.

Tony

>>>>>>>>
----------
From: Carol A. Wiggers
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 1996 11:50 PM
To: Members
Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:03:36 -0700
To: Fellow Listers <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: school-horary

Dear Fellow Listers,

Tony asked for comments on Kent's situation, with regards to his
school question where late degrees were rising. Sometimes the manner
in which we ask a question, can be the culprit. Some months back I
posted a question; murder OR suicide? about the circumstances
surrounding the death of an american business man in Russia. Deb
Houlding graciously pointed out that the nature of the question was
suspect.

Kent's question was:
"Should I continue my education...OR cut back my hours...to study
horary?" 11/20/1996 8:55am cst (6) 90w12, 32n18.

Using the complete co-ordinates for Jackson Mississippi,(kent give us
complete co-ordinates,please!) one of the considerations, late degrees
rises with 27 sag 45 on the ascendent.

When one asks a question with a OR in it, it is very difficult to
understand where to put the quesited. Simply asking one question
without other options, to confuse the situation works best. I am
grateful to Deborah for reminding me of this.

With regards to the term "strictures". Lee Lehman researched the word
"stricture" to find it's point of origin in the astrological
vernacular. Low and behold, this term is not at all classical. She
found it originated only 23 years ago. The term was first used in
'Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events' by Barbara Watters as a
chapter heading. It just caught on.

I prefer brilliant astrologer and tenacious researcher Sue Ward's
definition of the 'Considerations before Judgement', "Traditional
astrology has a set of established principles which act as a 'guide of
action and procedure' and offer a 'standard' to aim for" (Horary
Practioner #16 p.11).She points out that the dictionary defines
stricture as a 'censure'. "...disapproval is implied. So in this sense
a stricture would be like a rebuke"(HP#16p.11).

Personally I find the term 'strictures' very negative and misleading.
In Lilly's time the so called 'strictures' were known as,
'Considerations before Judgment', or whether the chart was 'radical
and fit to be judged'. I beleieve that the considerations act as Sue
says; as 'guidelines' or warnings to the astrologer before she/he
proceeds. It doesn't mean you can't take the question, just that there
is something to keep a discerning eye out for. Maybe your not getting
all the info, or the question has been asked incorrectly (that OR) or
has been asked (and answered) before; maybe some one is just not at
all serious about the question; maybe giving the answer would be
damaging to the client; or maybe the question is just plain over the
astrologer's head.

I have judged charts with early/late degrees, void moons, Saturn in
the 1st, etc. The main thrust of whether I will take a chart is, 'does
the chart reflect the situation'? Does the ascendent ruler describe
the querent? When there are considerations present, I will try to
figure out why. I will often refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th
house is badly placed, ie combust, (learned that the hard way) or if
there are more that one consideration present, late ascendent ruler,
both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R inthe 1st..then I would be
extremely cautious.

hope this is helpful.

Fondly,
Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org


Thread: (Fwd) will we get the house
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 19:00:33 -0800


>Subject: will we get the house
>
>Hi there. I am a student of astrology, very new to horary, who has
>been lurking this list for a little while and now have a question of
>my own and would really appreciate any of your thoughts.
>
By no means an expert but I'll give it a go :

First you are Jupiter - the Seller is Mercury ruler of the 7th, the House is
Mars ruler of the 4th and the Price is Venus - ruler of the 10th.

Saturn in the 4th describes the property as in need of some repair, but is
peregrine and has no power. It is in the end of the matter 4th and according
to Jacobson is good for building and land deals.

Your ruler Jupiter is in your second there is enough finance and is
applying to a sextile to Saturn so a solution to any repairs or plumbing
needed will be found.

Co ruler Moon applies a quincunx to Seller Mercury - and separates from a
trine to Jupiter, as you notedgiving and affirmative answer and maybe an
adjustment in price. Jupiter applies a trine to Fortuna.

The 5th house describes income from the property - Mars rules the house
which contains the Moon and Fortuna - which trines ruler Mars and also
Jupiter. This implies that you will be able to gain income from the property.

Venus in detriment is in mutual reception with Mars by Triplicity, Term and
Face so the price may still be negotiable, however the ruler of the seller
Mercury in in your 1st house so may be unwilling to negotiate. However,
Mercury has no dignity, is peregrine, so is unpredictable, and in Jupiters sign.

Jacobson says " If the ruler of the first is trine the ruler of the 4th such
property is good to buy." There is no aspect between buyer Jupiter and
Seller Mercury but there is translation of light. Jacobson says 'translation
of light will do". This says a deal will be concluded.

Theres probably a whole lot more, but I think one should stop when there is
enough to give a definitive answer and we have a positive chart and a
definite Yes, you will get the house.

( I supsect your heart's set on it anyway and you'll overcome any
dificulties with drainage. )

Enjoy your house

Linda





Thread: (Fwd) Water test
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 17:16:03 -0800

At 01:04 PM 11/23/96 +0000, you wrote:
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 18:33:50 GMT
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
>Subject: Water test
>
>If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules
>the sea and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish,
>springs, fish ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is
>stagnant water, and smelly places.
>
>Sue

Only bad smells, or do we also count some nice smells...?

Julienne




Thread: School-horary
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:03:35 -0800

Dear Fellow Listers,

Tony asked for comments on Kent's situation, with regards to his school
question where late degrees were rising. Sometimes the manner in which we
ask a question, can be the culprit. Some months back I posted a question;
murder OR suicide? about the circumstances surrounding the death of an
american business man in Russia. Deb Houlding graciously pointed out that
the nature of the question was suspect.

Kent's question was:
"Should I continue my education...OR cut back my hours...to study horary?"
11/20/1996 8:55am cst (6) 92w12, 32n18.

Using the complete co-ordinates for Jackson Mississippi,(kent give us
complete co-ordinates,please!) one of the considerations, late degrees rises
with 27 sag 45 on the ascendent.

When one asks a question with a OR in it, it is very difficult to understand
where to put the quesited. Simply asking one question without other options,
to confuse the situation works best. I am grateful to Deborah for reminding
me of this.

With regards to the term "strictures". Lee Lehman researched the word
"stricture" to find it's point of origin in the astrological vernacular. Low
and behold, this term is not at all classical. She found it originated only
23 years ago. The term was first used in 'Horary Astrology and the
Judgement of Events' by Barbara Watters as a chapter heading. It just caught on.

I prefer brilliant astrologer and tenacious researcher Sue Ward's definition
of the 'Considerations before Judgement', "Traditional astrology has a set
of established principles which act as a 'guide of action and procedure' and
offer a 'standard' to aim for" (Horary Practioner #16 p.11).She points out
that the dictionary defines stricture as a 'censure'. "...disapproval is
implied. So in this sense a stricture would be like a rebuke"(HP#16p.11).

Personally I find the term 'strictures' very negative and misleading. In
Lilly's time the so called 'strictures' were known as, 'Considerations
before Judgment', or whether the chart was 'radical and fit to be judged'. I
beleieve that the considerations act as Sue says; as 'guidelines' or
warnings to the astrologer before she/he proceeds. It doesn't mean you can't
take the question, just that there is something to keep a discerning eye out
for. Maybe your not getting all the info, or the question has been asked
incorrectly (that OR) or has been asked (and answered) before; maybe some
one is just not at all serious about the question; maybe giving the answer
would be damaging to the client; or maybe the question is just plain over
the astrologer's head.

I have judged charts with early/late degrees, void moons, Saturn in the 1st,
etc. The main thrust of whether I will take a chart is, 'does the chart
reflect the situation'? Does the ascendent ruler describe the querent? When
there are considerations present, I will try to figure out why. I will often
refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th house is badly placed, ie combust,
(learned that the hard way) or if there are more that one consideration
present, late ascendent ruler, both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R
inthe 1st..then I would be extremely cautious.

hope this is helpful.

Fondly,
Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org


>> Kent,
>>
>> I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based on
>> a horary chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient
>> considerations generally work as a warning.
>>
>> What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?
>>
>> Tony
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> ----------
>
>Hi,
> First I would want to see the chart, but if as you say 28 degrees is
> on
>the ASC that is a stricture against judgement. On that basis I used to
>change the venue at my horary class and discuss general astrology.
> Horary is short and sweet, No delineation is the statement of 28
>degrees.
> Blessings, Thomas
>--
> **************************************************
> Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
> P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
> Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
> Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
> **************************************************
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>
>



Thread: Water test
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:33:04 -0800

If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules the sea
and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish, springs, fish
ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is stagnant water, and
smelly places.

Sue

>If I may,
> You have my vote Tony! Cancer and the fourth always rules the fluids of
>human consumption, fresh water.
> Blessings, Thomas
>PS: Bodies of water, Cancer=fresh, Scorpio=swamp and Pisces=ocean.>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Will we get the house
From: Donna King <celestia@conneti.com> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:28:42 -0800

Hi there. I am a student of astrology, very new to horary, who has been
lurking this list for a little while and now have a question of my own
and would really appreciate any of your thoughts.

My husband and I have been searching for a house for quite a while now.
With mega-inflated housing prices (we live in Vancouver, B.C. - New Hong
Kong, some people call it), most everything in our price range is either
a dump or unsuitable for some reason or another. There is another
glitch - in order to afford the payments we have to be able to put a
suite in the basement and rent it out.

Anyway, we have finally found a house that we both really love. It's
back border is a provincial park - and all of the windows face into the
mountains - it is truly beautiful. But one of our conditions of
purchase is if we can install a bathroom and kitchen downstairs. Just
by our own visual inspection, we cannot tell, as it looks like all of
the existing drains (serving the upstairs) are above head level, exept
there is a washing machine down there, but it's not immediately apparent
where it drains. We have to call in a professional plumber to have a
look.

I ran the chart this morning for Nov 23 at 8:02 am PST in Vancouver. If
I am correct, I am represented by the Ascendant ruler, Jupiter, and the
Moon in Taurus. I am enthusiastic (Jupiter) about the house. The Moon
is applying to Jupiter. Can I take this as an immediate and affirmative
yes? The fourth house ruler, Mars, is also applying to trine Jupiter.
Is it significant that the fourth house cusp is at 0 Aries? Also I am
not sure where to look for the drain. I would think the fourth house.
Saturn is also at 0 Aries. This seems fairly negative to me, however,
the clarity of the Moon/Jupiter combined with this has me confused.

Any thoughts? Thanks much. ...Donna


Thread: School-horary
From: Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:35:18 -0800

Tony_ Lab wrote:
>
> Kent,
>
> I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based on a horary
> chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient considerations generally work as
> a warning.
>
> What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?
>
> Tony
> >>>>>>>>>>
> ----------

Hi,
First I would want to see the chart, but if as you say 28 degrees is on
the ASC that is a stricture against judgement. On that basis I used to
change the venue at my horary class and discuss general astrology.
Horary is short and sweet, No delineation is the statement of 28
degrees.
Blessings, Thomas
--
**************************************************
Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
**************************************************


Thread: Cazimi perp
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:31:01 -0800

Dear Fellow Listers,

Exactly one month after the third anniversary and within blocks of the very
house that 12yr old Polly Klass, was abducted from and subsequently
murdered, another little 12 year old girl was raped. The rape occured on
Friday Nov 1, 1996 at 2:30pm PST (8) Petaluma, Ca. 122w38, 38n12.
Thankfully, this 12 year old was not killed. She was able to identify from a
police photos, the suspect, one Larry Wayne Cole, 55, a known sex offender
and paroled kiddnapper. After the assault he burglarized her home and fled.
Any takers on what became of Coles?


fondly,
Dorothy
dstar@mcn.org



Thread: School-horary
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:05:58 -0800

Kent,

I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based on a horary
chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient considerations generally work as
a warning.

What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?

Tony
>>>>>>>>>>
----------
From: kent lambert
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 1996 3:59 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: school-horary

Tony,

I have Mercury sextile Neptune. Great for imagination but sometimes
when it envolves me I look at it the way I want it to be not the way it
is.
With 28 degrees rising I thought I might have made up my mind and was
fooling myself or I may have no choice because of my financial
situation. Sag. rising; Jupiter significator. Moon cosignigicator.
Higher education when mundane goes to the third house. More esoteric the
nineth house. Here we have had some discussion about what house
astrology falls under. Just thinking about it astrology goes beyond
intellect (third house) to the higher mind (nineth house). I looked up
astrology in THE RULERSHIP BOOK by Rex E. Bills. It gave the seventh as
a secondary ruler but no house for a primary ruler.
We have Pisces on the third house cusp; traditional ruler Jupiter which
is the significator of me placed in the first house. I do intend to get
my degree. Modern ruler Neptune in the first conjunct Jupiter. My
academic education comes first. Virgo on the nineth house cusp (ruling
astrology?, college education?); Mercury trine Moon. Moon secondary
significator. Gimini on the seventh house cusp (ruling astrology?);
again Mercury trine Moon. Uranus (definitely rules astrology) in the
first house conjunct the second house cusp. The astrology has to do with
making it financially.
I am learning horary so more commends please. If I am wrong tell me.

Kent




Thread: My water test
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:04:48 -0800

Janis,
Jupiter rules the 6th and 10th and lies in the 7th. My guess is that Moon
Square Juptier will be reflected in your loss of profit on the house (maybe
the 6th signifies how worried you are becoming over this). The other
stressful aspects you mention are quite far off and out of traditional orb, so
I wouldn't worry about them.
I'd be interested to know what others on the list think. Let us know the
outcome of this interesting chart.

Tony

>>>
----------
From: jmetz
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 1996 6:48 AM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: my water test

Thank you Tony for your input-it makes sense to me using the 4th as the
underground well. I am responsible for making it right so the cost to do
so is mine (being a Taurean, I hope its not going to be too much!) Just
one more question for you-The moon will sq Jupiter and Neptune on this
chart after it trines Mercury. Do you say Jupiter/Neptune is the buyer
since it is in the 7th? Do you think that means she'll back out of the
deal? This isn't a buy /sell chart. Also she is in the l0th and she did
contact the authorities to find out about well water and what it means
etc. These final aspects concern me or shouldn't they? The moon also
oppose Venus my hopes and wishes. Help-Panic is setting in by the second as I
am writing this-Thanks Janis






Thread: School-horary
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:58:45 -0800
Status: U

Tony,

I have Mercury sextile Neptune. Great for imagination but sometimes
when it envolves me I look at it the way I want it to be not the way it
is.
With 28 degrees rising I thought I might have made up my mind and was
fooling myself or I may have no choice because of my financial
situation. Sag. rising; Jupiter significator. Moon cosignigicator.
Higher education when mundane goes to the third house. More esoteric the
nineth house. Here we have had some discussion about what house
astrology falls under. Just thinking about it astrology goes beyond
intellect (third house) to the higher mind (nineth house). I looked up
astrology in THE RULERSHIP BOOK by Rex E. Bills. It gave the seventh as
a secondary ruler but no house for a primary ruler.
We have Pisces on the third house cusp; traditional ruler Jupiter which
is the significator of me placed in the first house. I do intend to get
my degree. Modern ruler Neptune in the first conjunct Jupiter. My
academic education comes first. Virgo on the nineth house cusp (ruling
astrology?, college education?); Mercury trine Moon. Moon secondary
significator. Gimini on the seventh house cusp (ruling astrology?);
again Mercury trine Moon. Uranus (definitely rules astrology) in the
first house conjunct the second house cusp. The astrology has to do with
making it financially.
I am learning horary so more commends please. If I am wrong tell me.

Kent


Thread: (Fwd) Re: my water test
From: Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:58:45 -0800
Status: U

Tony_ Lab wrote:
>
> Janis,
>
> If I have the right chart, 10 Cancer rises. I would think the well is ruled
> by the 4th (things buried in the earth, resources of the earth), so Mercury
> would rule the well. Mercury in 6th having just conjoined Pluto and under the
> sunbeams may represent the toxins in the well. Ascendant ruler Moon will
> trine Mercury suggesting a favorable outcome. Jupiter does rule the 10th of
> the price of the house and the square from the Moon may simply reflect that in
> the end you will end up spending more to sell the house and getting less
> profit than you had hoped for. Also, as Carol mentioned the 8th rules
> poisoning, Saturn rules the 8th and is posited in the 10th (with the South
> Node), indicating a lowering of the price you receive because of the toxic
> well problem.
>
> Let me know what happens.
>
> Tony

If I may,
You have my vote Tony! Cancer and the fourth always rules the fluids of
human consumption, fresh water.
Blessings, Thomas
PS: Bodies of water, Cancer=fresh, Scorpio=swamp and Pisces=ocean.>
--
**************************************************
Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
**************************************************


Thread: My water test
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:22:32 -0800

Janis,

If I have the right chart, 10 Cancer rises. I would think the well is ruled
by the 4th (things buried in the earth, resources of the earth), so Mercury
would rule the well. Mercury in 6th having just conjoined Pluto and under the
sunbeams may represent the toxins in the well. Ascendant ruler Moon will
trine Mercury suggesting a favorable outcome. Jupiter does rule the 10th of
the price of the house and the square from the Moon may simply reflect that in
the end you will end up spending more to sell the house and getting less
profit than you had hoped for. Also, as Carol mentioned the 8th rules
poisoning, Saturn rules the 8th and is posited in the 10th (with the South
Node), indicating a lowering of the price you receive because of the toxic
well problem.

Let me know what happens.

Tony


Thread: Book???
From: "Joanna M. Ashmun" <jmashmun@nwlink.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:02:31 -0800

Does anyone have this book or know where it can be found?

Hans Koster. Astrological House Systems. Bannister Associates, Still
River MA 1976. Typed, around 250 pages.

Please email me privately if you have any information.

Thanks.

Joanna


Thread: School-horary
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:27:00 -0800



----------
From: kent lambert
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 1996 1:00 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: school-horary

Hi folks,

This morning sitting in calculus class, the idea came to mind to cast a
horary chart to answer a question that had been on my mind for awhile.
The time was 8:55 am. The question was should I continue my education
the way I am going now (with a full load), or cut back on the hours I am
taking so I can give more time to studying horary and trying to
incorporate it into my astrology practice. Next semester I will be
taking 3 physics courses and 1 history totaling 14hrs of credit. I cast
the chart for Jackson, MS (90 long., 32 lat.), 8:55 am CST. My
interpretation is to go ahead with the horary and cut back on my hours
at school.
Comments Please.

Kent




Thread: School-horary
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:00:13 -0800

Hi folks,

This morning sitting in calculus class, the idea came to mind to cast a
horary chart to answer a question that had been on my mind for awhile.
The time was 8:55 am. The question was should I continue my education
the way I am going now (with a full load), or cut back on the hours I am
taking so I can give more time to studying horary and trying to
incorporate it into my astrology practice. Next semester I will be
taking 3 physics courses and 1 history totaling 14hrs of credit. I cast
the chart for Jackson, MS (90 long., 32 lat.), 8:55 am CST. My
interpretation is to go ahead with the horary and cut back on my hours
at school.
Comments Please.

Kent


Thread: Eye glasses
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:49:12 -0800
Status: U

What house would you look to for eye glasses? I thought of the 3rd or
the 3rd from the 6th.
Kent


Thread: Will I have to go to court for custody.
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:12:44 -0800

At 06:42 PM 11/18/96 +8, Carol A. Wiggers wrote:

Dear Carol,

Many thanks for your prompt help - I did make a mistake is assigning Jupiter
to the child - looked at the 4th house instead of the fifth - this clarifies
the chart - I'll now have another look at the situation. The father had
already made his move and since posting my query, I had a call from the
mother - she had been in conference with her lawyer and his legal aid lawyer
to determine whether she is entitled to legal aid. The system now goes to
the legal aid arbiter who will decide but it does seem that he will get aid.
Her situation is such that if she has to pay for her own legal costs, she
will suffer a lot of hardship. I have told her that I have no doubt she will
have to go to court over this. It nowe looks as if the child's wishes will
be the determining factor.

Thank you again for your help -what a dummy - I knew I should have looked at
the fifth, but my eyes must have been squinting!

Love

Linda
>
>
>



Thread: Will I have to go to court for custody.
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:39:49 -0800


This question was posed to me by a client. She was married and had 3
children, but the marriage broke down when she was pregnant with a 4th
child. She raised the children alone for 7 years and the ex husband was
given access to the 3 older children, but because he had not been involved
in parenting the 4th, the child did not want to visit him. He is now
claiming full custody of that 4th child, and has stopped all maintenance
payments for the other three ( she never claimed maintenance for the 4th
child - Darren) Her ex.has remarried and has now given up his job so that
he can gain legal aid, and my client, who has remarried will have to pay
costs herself. The child does not wish to live with his father who is a
total stranger to him.

The time of the question was 10.11 am November 1 1996 at 40S59 145E54 AEDT
(-11hrs) 14 Cap04 rising Regiomanatus houses. The quesitor is ruled by
Saturn, Rx, in fall and peregrine in the 4th house. The child is ruled by
Jupiter in the 1st house in fall and in its own term and the Ex husband by
the Moon, dignified in the 7th house.

Does the Sun rule the judge in this case, being in the 10th of judgement,
or should I use Mars, ruler of the 10th. Using the Sun, it seems that the
Moon trine Sun in the 10th of the judge the husband will get his way and she
will have to go to court.

The Sun makes no contact with the mothers significator. Should I use the
10th as the end of the matter 4th for the husband containing Sun and 4th for
the mother containing Saturn. Or should I use the 2nd as the end of the
matter for the judgement disposed by Saturn.

Moon;s next aspect is to Fortuna in the 9th which is trined by the child's
significator. Mars in the 9th of legal matters is MR with Mercury which is
combust the Sun.

Could someone help me to decide which significator to use for the judgement.
I am sure she will have to go to court based on the better condition of the
exhusbands significator, but unsure whether to use the same significators
for the judgement.

Thanks for any help, this woman is distraught.

Linda





>
>
>



Thread: Ex's Money: reply to Joe Crane
From: aselzion@ix.netcom.com (RD ) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:35:37 -0800

Hi Joe...

I think I would read this question as a 2nd house issue, because it
relates to the INCOME/SUBSTANCE of the querent. I also would have a
look at the lord of the 8th as a reference to the "other party's
money". This perhaps is the cleanest way to find out about money owed.

Did the estranged couple have children? Perhaps then you may want
to look at the FATHER 4th from the CHILD 5th (radical 8th house) in
which case the 9th radical house would represent the INCOME of the
child's father... this is a good trial case for a horary astrologer,
and I'd like to be updated as to the outcome of the question when and
if it becomes known to you.

Additionally, the CHART itself may help you decide which houses to
use... The FIRST should decribe the querent... does the 7th describe
the ex?? If so, we come back to the 8th house as his income.

Very interesting... hope this helps a bit. Please keep us posted.
:)

In the Light...
Richard





Thread: Significator for an Ex
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:04:00 -0800

Hi-
I'm a recent arrival to this list and I'm impressed with its atmosphere of
hard work and tolerance.
Here's a new one for me. I have a Question about a woman's husband's alimony
payments, and particularly her husband's ex-spouse. I recoil at turning the
chart so that the ex becomes the seventh from the seventh, meaning the first.
Perhaps there's a simple reference for this, or a systemic approach that
would solve this for me, but I'm presently quite confused about it.
I'd love to hear what you've used, in a similar situation.

Curt - thanks for your comment on Whole Sign Houses and the consideration
about an Ascendant. I never thought of it that way.

Joseph Crane


Thread: Planet's change in HSys
From: Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:23:39 -0800

Julienne wrote:
>
> Hi Carla,

> People
> usually don't even know there ARE different rules for different house
> systems, and such different rules are rarely taught.
> So, though what you say sounds reasonable, it's purely theoretical.
>
> Love,
>
> Julienne

Hello Julienne,

The fact that people don't know and/or use something is not really a
criterion for its validity. You're right about actuality, but it is not
that it doesn't WORK that way, it is just that it's not USED that way.
What does not mean at all that it does not work that way.
Even though these rules, as you said, are rarely taught, what is
interesting is if they work or not, and whether they give more precise
results.
The theory is the base for the practice and do not oppose it. That's why
is useful to look for those theories.
love
Carla



Thread: Houses' Systems - "The Mission " !!!
From: Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:23:46 -0800

Anthony Lange wrote:
>
> Dear Carla
>
> Please could you explain this to me
>
> "50 before" - which way. up in the12th ??? 50 minutes ??
>
> so if Asc is 22Aries its 21 Aries 10 , is that what you mean ??
>
> thanks Tony
>
> > On the other hand Regiomontanus himself and Lilly after him pledged
> the
> > ASC is always 50 before the cusp of the first house. Would that be
> the
> > reminiscence of the Equal Houses System? That's not clear to me yet.
> > love
> > Carla
> >Tony,
Sorry, it's a problem of keyboard; in my keyboard I had five degrees - in
the mail it became fifty. So it is: five degrees, three degrees and two
degrees.
Thank you, I had not noticed it.
love
Carla




Thread: Rules please
From: ENTRTAINR@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:31:32 -0800

In a message dated 96-11-18 03:24:08 EST, speaking of equal house systems:

<<
HOW do they work, and how are they different, and what are the rules we
could give students?
>>
I for one would be very appreciative of more information or rules on using
Equal house and Koch. The discussions are very helpful, but would be even
more so if more dilineations and rules were posted.

Thank you all,

Trudy


Thread: More Cents!: Or House Systems Book II
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 21:43:42 -0800

At 04:06 AM 11/18/96 +0000, allen edwall wrote:
>Hi, Richard,
>
>Thanks for your answer.
>
>>> Equal House from Ascendant in answer to your query.
>
> In application, the difference is subtle at best... in my own chart
>I have 4 planets that move from Campanus/Regiomontanus 8th to Equal
>House 9th. Both seem to apply, but the shading is subtly different.
>Without going into a lot of personal (and therefore boring to anyone
>but myself) waffling I'd have to say that the Quadrant chart seems to
>fit the pattern of my Life in the WORLD. However, the Equal House
>chart (from the Asc) seem more true to the ME of ME; they both WORK,
>but they are different.

What does this mean? Where is your life but in the world? What is the "ME of
ME"? As opposed to "ME of SOMEONE ELSE"?

I don't mean to be rude, but I find this language so obtuse as to be
meaningless. How would a student find this description helpful?

HOW do they work, and how are they different, and what are the rules we
could give students?

Julienne




Thread: House systems
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:03:25 -0800


Hi Kent,
I ever fail to understand how religious zealots can have the crass audacity to
think their religious fervour gives them to right to destroy prior learning
tomes. Blast your ex!! I would have liked to know if this was one of Lilly's
works, and what it said, too.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Planet's change in HSys
From: Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:54:57 -0800

Hello Victor,
You asked how to use interpretation when changing houses' system, and a
planet moves from one house to another. Well, you just forget about the
old system you know; if you use a system, it does not matter which one,
you have to follow its rules, never mixing up with other systems' rules.
Usually, not always, when a planet changes from one house to another it
was near the new house's cusp; in this case you might have already
considered it in the next house.
love
Carla



Thread: Houses' Systems III - the mission
From: Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:44:11 -0800

Hello everybody,
You've been so kind getting interested in that matter. I thank you all.
It is very usefull to have your experiences in using the different
systems of houses, and there are very many interesting questions that
come out of the information given. But actually I'd like to develop the
matter from the philosophical point of vue, I mean, understanding it in a
clear, logical reasoning. What amazes me is that the only system in my
understanding that is theoretically defensible is the Equal Houses. I
don't know if it is so, or if I'm missing something.
Allen, you raised up a second problem: once we agree to work with Equal
Houses, if we ever do,how should we base our calculations? On ascendent
or MC? There's no way of putting it in both at the same time.
We find then two different "schools":
1. from the ascendent, then you'll have two different positions: one for
the tenth house cusp and another for MC. The may coincide if the chart is
for a place near Equator, but even though this would rouse two different
interpretations, one for tenth house cusp and another for MC.
2. from the MC, then the two different positions would be for the ASC and
first house cusp. The same occurs here about interpretation.
What's very interesting about it all is that using MC for raising the
houses comes after Firmicus Maternus, and he postulated that the meaning
we usually give to first house should be found on the tenth. We will find
the same kind of reasoning in our century in Don Neroman's work with the
progressions and the technique he developed for prediction - the Factuum.
Then we're around the same reasoning all the time: the system should
start in the house you find the meaning of the appearence, the self, the
house that starts the whole differentiation of the chart. Where you will
put it, either in the first (the more common issue, until nowdays) or in
the tenth depends on each one you associate with the meaning supposed. So
we have always the same meaning to begin with.
On the other hand Regiomontanus himself and Lilly after him pledged the
ASC is always 50 before the cusp of the first house. Would that be the
reminiscence of the Equal Houses System? That's not clear to me yet.
love
Carla



Thread: More Cents!: Or House Systems Book II
From: allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:07:09 -0800

Hi, Richard,

Thanks for your answer.

>> Equal House from Ascendant in answer to your query.

In application, the difference is subtle at best... in my own chart
I have 4 planets that move from Campanus/Regiomontanus 8th to Equal
House 9th. Both seem to apply, but the shading is subtly different.
Without going into a lot of personal (and therefore boring to anyone
but myself) waffling I'd have to say that the Quadrant chart seems to
fit the pattern of my Life in the WORLD. However, the Equal House
chart (from the Asc) seem more true to the ME of ME; they both WORK,
but they are different.

Have you tried the equal houses from the MC and seen what that technique did for
you?


Allen



Thread: Planet's change in HSys
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:42:45 -0800

At 11:56 PM 11/17/96 +0000, Carla Vorsatz wrote:
>Hello Victor,
>You asked how to use interpretation when changing houses' system, and a
>planet moves from one house to another. Well, you just forget about the
>old system you know; if you use a system, it does not matter which one,
>you have to follow its rules, never mixing up with other systems' rules.
>Usually, not always, when a planet changes from one house to another it
>was near the new house's cusp; in this case you might have already
>considered it in the next house.
> love
> Carla
Hi Carla,

In actuality, however, it usually doesn't work this way, does it?. People
usually don't even know there ARE different rules for different house
systems, and such different rules are rarely taught. I don't think I have
ever seen different instructions given for example, for the Aor M equal
house systems, or Placidus, or Koch. People simply erect the charts using
whatever system they've chosen for the moment and proceed to interpret it as
though they weremn't even conscious of which system they are using.

So, though what you say sounds reasonable, it's purely theoretical.

Love,

Julienne




Thread: House systems
From: "Victor E. Tolle" <tense@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:28:58 -0800

>From william_lilly@halcyon.com Fri Nov 15 12:14:04 1996
>Received: from blv-pm103-ip17.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com
(5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM)
>id AA21117; Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:26:23 -0800
>Message-Id: <9611151926.AA21117@mail1.halcyon.com>
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <cwiggers@mail.halcyon.com>
>From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Organization: JustUs & Associates
>To: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:26:47 +8
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
>Subject: (Fwd) Re: house systems
>Reply-To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Priority: normal
>X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a)
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:00:50 -0800
>From: Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net>
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Re: house systems
>
>Hello Kent,
>
>Thank you for your answer to this matter,
>
> What I found was a small change in perception on the same inquiry
> into
>each house system. In other words they all worked. When I heard of the
>Koch system I tried that with the same results.
>
>That's the main problem about working with results. Since the methods
>of availing the results are quite subjective, we have to base
>ourselves in our experience and our way of understanding, and that's
>subjective, of course. It doesn't mean it is wrong or so, but just
>that from a subjective approach we can not grasp a general rule and/or
>an objective point of vue. Most of the times it is good enough for our
>own practice, but, when you get around with education and transmitting
>knowledge to other people, you find it is a pretty unconfortable way.
>And of course, if you can establish some rules the ground gets more
>solid, and it becomes easier to work with.
>
>I agree the Equal house system makes
>> more sense to my intellect. We have to use our intellect to learn
>> the basics of astrology so we can actually learn astrology. For me
>> my interpertations come from beyond the intellect. I am not psychic.
>> If I was psychic I would not need astrology, but my readings are
>> only partly intellect.
>
>That's a most interesting subject, but I'm afraid it would lead us
>very far from the houses' systems affair. For sure we are not
>exclusively intellect... I'm not prepared to engage this discussion
>for I have not studied it so far; hope one day I can approach it!
>
>> Your friendly redneck astrologer,
>
>Sorry for the ignorance, but what is a redneck astrologer?
>Thank you for your attention, and I hope we can get further on with
>this matter.
> love
> Carla
>
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>

Greetings. I have used the Placidus System for about 30 years since I was
introduced to it in the A-Z Horoscope Maker & Delineator. I have had
consistent and mostly reliable results. But I have a question. If we get a
delineation from a book like this and it has a slant towards a particular house
system, how could we use the interpretation if we change house systems. If we
change from Placidus to Koch and Pluto moves from 7th house to 8th house It
will be wait and see how it manifests. I have come to rely more on sign
placement and aspects than house placement.


---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Thread: More Cents!: Or House Systems Book II
From: aselzion@ix.netcom.com (RD ) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:20:32 -0800

Hi Allen (and others)...

Equal House from Ascendant in answer to your query.

In application, the difference is subtle at best... in my own chart
I have 4 planets that move from Campanus/Regiomontanus 8th to Equal
House 9th. Both seem to apply, but the shading is subtly different.
Without going into a lot of personal (and therefore boring to anyone
but myself) waffling I'd have to say that the Quadrant chart seems to
fit the pattern of my Life in the WORLD. However, the Equal House
chart (from the Asc) seem more true to the ME of ME; they both WORK,
but they are different.

One brief example: in the Equal House chart, I have 4 planets in
the 9th house. I am fascinated by God, travel, publishing and
philosophy (including Qabalah and Ritual). DRAWN to them, but as yet,
have had limited travel, have not yet been published, and have not
really APPLIED my theoretical knowledge of magic.

However these planets move into the 8th house of the Quadrant
system chart and I DO work in banking, am called by many people a
natural psychic and have had 1 major surgery and 2 minor surgeries, and
one of my teachers in Astrology tells me on a regular basis that I am
more a Spiritual ALCHEMIST than Astrologer... the pattern of my MUNDANE
existence seems more fitting of these placements, though my SOUL is
drawn to the 9th house pursuits.

Hopefully this will clear up Allen's question about APPLICATION.

Pax et Bonum.....
Richard





Thread: (Fwd) Houses' Systems
From: Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 22:02:51 -0800

Hello Listers,
I offer the following from my own experience in astrology.
My early years in astrology were very confusing. Being self taught from
books I could find it took many years to learn astrology and many more
to apply it. One of the many confusions I had to settle was
dealing with house systems, because there were so many. So I set a rule
for myself: unless the point of a house cusp could support itself as
a viable point of energy, it was rejected. Just using houses with
transiting planets to them and looking for events to occur as the
planets crossed those lines was the first approach. Then, predicting an
event according to what the house ruled was the second step. The only
systems to pass those standards were Placidus and Koch, but in two
different areas of application.
Because of this, in my 4th week class in a Basic study I always
discuss and teach houses with a demonstration of their workings so that
students can remember through what they experience. House cusp function
can be shown in a few other manners, diurnal, gambling charts and in
medical astrology.
When a line is drawn, a challenge will always prove if it does
or does not exist, the confusion always amazes me.
Just my thoughts, Thomas
--

Thomas Seers AMAFA
Northridge, CA 91324
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own.


Thread: SUBJECT
From: gingerk7@juno.com Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:07:52 -0800

HELLO-O-O-O-O-O-O-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-ooooooooo,

W H E R E I S E V E R Y B O D Y ? ? ?

H O W C A N *( 8 )* D I F F E R E N T L I S T A L L B E D O
W N
A T T H E S A M E T I M E ? ? ?

T H I S I S T O T A L L Y U N R E A L.......... N O T O N E P
I E C E

O F M A I L I N A L M O S T (13) H O U R S ?

D I D T H E R E S T O F T H E W O R L D G E T B O M B E D

O R I N V A D E D B Y A L I E N S A N D A B D U C T E D ? ?

! ! !~~~~~~ ! ! !~~~~~~!

! ! ! ! ! !
! !
!~~~-~~! !~~~ ! ! ! !
!
! ! ! ! ! !
! !
! ! !~~~-~~ !~~~~~ !~~~~~ !~~~~~~! *
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

I S C Y B E R S P A C E E M P T Y W I T H A V O I D N O
W ??

H E L L O - O - O - O - O - o - o - o - o - o -o o o o o o ooooooo ! ! !

J u s t w o n d e r i n g w h a t h a p p e n ? M y c o m p e t
e r h a s

b e e n u p a n d d o w n a n d I l o s t a l o t o f m a
i l, I w o n d e r

i f I l o s t s o m e u n o p e n e d m a i l t h a t s a
i d T O D A Y

w a s n u l & v o i d d a y,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,N O M A I L D A
Y!. . . . . . . . . . . .

O H W E L L, I T R I E D.

G
O
O
D B
Y Y
O
U G
U
Y
S ! L
O
V
E &

L

I

G

H

T,
F R O M : G I N G E R K. GingerK7@juno.com


Thread: House systems
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 07:32:46 -0800

sueward@easynet.co.uk wrote:
>
> Kent wrote:
>
> >religion, a Campanus table of houses and a Placidus table of houses. I
> >tried the four house systems I had available; Campanus, Placidus, Equal
> >house, and Lilly's variation on the equal house. What I found was a
>
> Kent
>
> Would you mind elaborating on 'Lilly's variation on the equal house system?
> I don't think I've ever heard of this.
>
> Thanks
>
> Sue
> The Traditional Horary Course
> sueward@easynet.co.uk
> http://www.horary.com

The book that was supposedly part of Lilly's Christian Astrology was
burnt by my ex, so I am going on memory. I don't remember the exact
number of degrees but the book stated that Lilly used more than 30
degrees for the angular houses. I think it was 32 or 33 degrees. The
succedent houses were less and the cadent houses were even less. I found
the book in the French Quarter of New Orleans around '72 or '73. The
book was in old english so I thought it was authenic. It was my first
expossure to horary. I never finished the book, but kept telling myself
I was going to learn horary. Finally this summer I started to learn
horary.

Kent


Thread: My 2 cents: House Systems
From: allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:12:44 -0800

Hello, Richard and others,

>> So, for Esoteric or Metaphysical Astrology, I use an Equal House Chart.

So, all you people who use Equal house systems, is that equal houses from the
Ascendant OR the Midheaven???? Or both?

And what is the symbolic difference and the practical application using one or
the other?


Just curious. Thanks.


Allen



Thread: FW: strong indicators please
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 05:20:28 -0800



----------
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 1996 5:08 PM
To: Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)
Subject: RE: strong indicators please

Dear Trudy and Angela,

I assume Angela is looking for divorce in a horary chart. I would agree that
the 1st house and the Moon show the querent and the 7th the spouse. A
difficult aspect (Square, Opposition, Contrantiscion) between the rulers,
Almutens, or planetary occupants of the 1st and 7th might indicate divorce
(especially an opposition which symbolizies separation and an adversarial
stance). Forgive the mention of modern planets, but I find Uranus prominent
in divorce questions. I have not found the Arabic parts especially useful.

I can share a chart of a client who asked if divorce was likely, and then went
on to a bitter and dangerous divorce.

Tony

The data are:
Is my wife planning to divorce?

06 Jul 1996 6.48 P.M. (4) EDT 73.58 WEST 40.45 NORTH

This client is foreign. His wife's family, especially her father, disliked
him and she had moved back home to her parents' house. Her family was
encouraging her to divorce, but the client wanted a reconciliation. I told
him that divorce looked likely and also that I felt he might be in some
danger with Mars conjoining the contrascion of Jupiter. He confirmed that the
wife's brothers had tried to physically attack him and he worried that they
might be secretly plotting some further harm agains him (Mars here rules the
12th). His wife's ruler Mercury is mutually applying to an opposition of
Ascendant (22 SAG) ruler Jupiter from the 7th to the 1st houses. Mercury
(wife) is combust the sun (her father who opposed the marriage).
The contrascion of Uranus (divorce, disruptions) also conjoints the extremely
malefic fixed star Captu Algol.

----------
From: Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 1996 3:59 AM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: strong indicators please




Thread: My 2 cents: House Systems
From: aselzion@ix.netcom.com (RD ) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 20:32:56 -0800

Hi all...

As a former student and friend of Linda Goodman, student of
Metaphysical Astrology and delver into the traditional methods of
Horary Astrology, here are my findings, and where I stand at this point
in time. (as with everything I reserve the right to change my mind,
given new and better information)

Equal House System: the picture of the Soul (4th dimensional
entity) as projected into a 3 dimensional reality. This sytem
basically shows how things would be, "all things being EQUAL". It
represents the SOUL as it would be, if it could, without the many
conditions and societal constraints that we ALLOW ourSELVES to be
subjected to - without the ROLES we CHOOSE to play. :)

Quadrant Systems: The same SOUL as it chooses to manifest in
physical reality, AND the societal constraints we choose to operate
under. Here we see what isues we choose to stress (interecepted
houses) and those we choose to minimize (the itty bitty houses) ;}

Both systems work, one just has to be a good enough interpreter.
The SOUL always has the capacity to rise above obstacles, limitations
and frustrations... but with the quadrant systems, we have a better
idea WHERE these will tend to manifest more readily.

So, for Esoteric or Metaphysical Astrology, I use an Equal House
Chart. For Natal work with a Quadrant system, I use Campanus Houses,
and for Traditional Horary work, I use Regiomontanus. Proving once
again, that whatever system we apply, as long as it is done
consistently, will produce consistent results. I believe the catholic
minded student will test all of the methods available, and decide which
works best for him/her SELF.

I'll leave you with a note from Linda: "People always tend to to
lean toward the more "complicated" methods in any field, rejecting the
simplistic - when the fact is that "truth" invariably is hidden in
simplicity. I merely state here my personal faith in the decided
superiority of the Equal House System of the ancients for those who
have inquired...for me the Placidian system results in many
inaccuracies of interpretation." **Linda Goodman's Love Signs p. 905

Thank you for your patience....

In the Light....
Richard DiCarlo






Thread: House systems
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:01:26 -0800

Kent wrote:

>religion, a Campanus table of houses and a Placidus table of houses. I
>tried the four house systems I had available; Campanus, Placidus, Equal
>house, and Lilly's variation on the equal house. What I found was a

Kent

Would you mind elaborating on 'Lilly's variation on the equal house system?
I don't think I've ever heard of this.

Thanks

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: House systems
From: Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:04:35 -0800

Hello Kent,

Thank you for your answer to this matter,

What I found was a small change in perception on the same inquiry into
each house system. In other words they all worked. When I heard of the
Koch system I tried that with the same results.

That's the main problem about working with results. Since the methods of
availing the results are quite subjective, we have to base ourselves in
our experience and our way of understanding, and that's subjective, of
course. It doesn't mean it is wrong or so, but just that from a
subjective approach we can not grasp a general rule and/or an objective
point of vue. Most of the times it is good enough for our own practice,
but, when you get around with education and transmitting knowledge to
other people, you find it is a pretty unconfortable way. And of course,
if you can establish some rules the ground gets more solid, and it
becomes easier to work with.

I agree the Equal house system makes
> more sense to my intellect. We have to use our intellect to learn the
> basics of astrology so we can actually learn astrology. For me my
> interpertations come from beyond the intellect. I am not psychic. If I
> was psychic I would not need astrology, but my readings are only partly
> intellect.

That's a most interesting subject, but I'm afraid it would lead us very
far from the houses' systems affair. For sure we are not exclusively
intellect... I'm not prepared to engage this discussion for I have not
studied it so far; hope one day I can approach it!

> Your friendly redneck astrologer,

Sorry for the ignorance, but what is a redneck astrologer?
Thank you for your attention, and I hope we can get further on with this
matter.
love
Carla



Thread: Houses' Sys ... my views
From: Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:04:31 -0800

Carol A. Wiggers wrote:
>
> ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
> From: arl@saol.com (Anthony Lange)
> To: <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
> Subject: Re:Houses' Systems ... my views
> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:47:58 +0200
> Hello Tony,

> The Equal house system is the only truly consistent

I thank you for answering and sharing your ideas with me. I must say it's
good to know that you agree with the thought developed; it seems to me
that it does make sense.

> To advocate other more "sophisticated" house systems and to assume
> Ptolemy didn't know of the other lines - as used by the other house
> systems is a bit daft.

I beg your pardon, but I'm not sure I understood what you meant by that.
English is not my mother tongue, not even my stepmother tongue, so I'd
ask you to say again, in a foreign understandable fashion... could you do
that for me? I've been working for a while on these ideas, and it is
important for me to fully understand its implications.

> To my mind - if true "VIRTUAL" Astrological consistency is to be
> retained
> then I have no problem in seeing the Equal H.S as the most authentic.

I actually don't see any other way of understanding astrological tools
but as having virtual existence. It certainly does not belongs to the
real world, in my humble point of vue.

> But the true test should be whether or not it works - Im my expedience
> "only 3 years" the times I have seen it work - where accurate data
> is available , I have been amazed.

That's the most interesting about it all: it does work better than the
other systems, in my humble experience, of course.
Three years is not "only" in terms of experience: comprehention can not
be measured by time of studying! The capacity of understanding a subject
is a multifatorial process, and can not be summed up in terms of time,
quantity of material, and so on... So your opinions are extremely
important for me.

> again - just my view. BTW I've half way thru giving a series of
> classes on this very subject .

Again, my problem of understanding. Does it mean that you have been
teaching houses systems and in your work you have approached the subject
of the adequation of the houses' systems? If I did get it right, how am I
to do to have this material?
Thank you again for your attention.
love
Carla




Thread: (Fwd) Re:Houses' Sys ... my views
From: CURT MANWARING <chiron@servtech.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:13:57 -0800

Hello,

There are according to the Greeks only 2 systems of houses. The ones based
upon dynamic strength of a planets placement originates from Ptolemy. The
different methods of trisecting quadrants that came as a result of this,
i.e. Regiomontanus, Placidus, Koch come from the problem of how to reduce 3D
to 2D and still retain what was important about the position. In other
words where in space is a house? The Greeks had a simple answer; a house is
a topos (place), a topic or an area of life. Because a house has an eidos
(form) which is an idealized topos (place) in the heavens, it had to be a
sign (zoidion).

This confusion between dynamic houses and topic houses is what has
proliferated all of these different house systems in the name of catching a
more accurate meaning. We in western culture tend to think the most
accurate meaning comes from precise measurement, but for the Greeks, precise
measurement only accurately describes Hule (which is undifferentiated
matter). Matter only imprecisely outlines form and for that reason, the
Greeks considered precise measurement as only a way to find out "what the
universe is trying to tell us". In other words the precision itself is not
the answer. In fact it completely misses the point.

We still have remnants of the original way of looking at houses in modern
horary. Think of the strictures against judgement. An early ascendant
means that the topic is premature, and a late ascendant means that the topic
is either moot of getting old, but the sign is still the topic and the area
of life involved.

Sincerely,
Curt Manwaring



Thread: Update
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:47:54 -0800


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Thread: Houses' Systems ... my views
From: arl@saol.com (Anthony Lange) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 00:03:37 -0800

Ive been lurking for a time - but Im out ( for now)

I must say I agree with you.

The Equal house system is the only truly consistent
house system. By that I mean - well you said it -

> But this would be the only one coherent with the
> tropical Zodiac system. As I said in the beginning we are working
with
> virtual tools, and do not suppose any reality to the house system as
> well.

To advocate other more "sophisticated" house systems and to assume
Ptolemy didn't know of the other lines - as used by the other house
systems
is a bit daft.

To my mind - if true "VIRTUAL" Astrological consistency is to be
retained
then I have no problem in seeing the Equal H.S as the most authentic.

But the true test should be whether or not it works - Im my expedience
"only 3 years" the times I have seen it work - where accurate data
is available , I have been amazed.

again - just my view. BTW I've half way thru giving a series of classes
on this very subject .

Regards Tony


> To everybody,
> Hello!
> I would like to discuss the houses' systems with anyone who whishes
> to. The point is not technical, but philosophycal: I know the
> different house systems, their history, the arguments used pro and
> contra, and so on, but this is not the matter. The point is the
> difference between real and virtual. When we work with the Zodiac we
> assume it is virtual, giving it no real existence, what does not mean
> it is not efficient as a tool. It is efficient, indeed. Laymen try to
> discredit Astrology by presenting facts that evidence the inexistence
> of the Zodiac: a thirteenth costellation, for example. But the fact
of
> its inexistence in the domain of the reality, not tangible, is well
> known by the astrologers, and mean no difference at all. Like
> statistics, we work with a representation, or archetip, or symbol, or
> whatever we want to name it, and its virtuality does not implicate
its
> efficiency. Perhaps this is not as clear as it should be, and we find
> secular discussions on if the signs correspond to the constellations
> as in the "beginning"; the signs have never corresponded to the
> constellations, nor were they ever supposed to. We simply don't have
> no 30 degrees constellations! As each one of it has its own lenght
and
> the ensemble is not fairly divided it means that they where only used
> as reference in naming a concept, the Zodiac, and that it is equally
> divided and just represents the sky (should I say heaven?). This was
> and introductory bias, for what I would like to discuss is: since we
> work with a virtual tool, the Zodiac, how could we tune it up with a
> "real" system, without loosing its own characteristic and so its
> efficiency? And here I'm talking about the house systems. The
> different systems usually used are Regiomontanus, Koch, Placidus,
> Topocentric and so on. Seldom we see professionals using the Equal
> House system. But this would be the only one coherent with the
> tropical Zodiac system. As I said in the beginning we are working
with
> virtual tools, and do not suppose any reality to the house system as
> well. I mean, I do not believe that digging the ground in the east
> I'll find myself, or that standing in the west I'll stay in my
> partner's place... that's surely not the way it works! So I admit the
> house systems is also a virtual tool, and if it is virtual it is not
> submitted to earthen contingencies, as a matter of fact. By giving
> sequence to this though I arrive at the conclusion that only a system
> that gives a pre-existing division of houses is adjusted to work with
> a system that gives a pre-existing division of the signs. On the
other
> hand all the other systems have conceptual issues that are hard to
> deal with, as: 1. the birth place would determine collective
> identities and differences when compared to
> other places in earth, which means that the whole planet do not
share
> a comom

big snip .....


> are interested in doing so. Thank you, anyway, for you attention.
> love
> Carla



Thread: (Fwd) Re: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From: maryo@Rt66.com (Mary O'Gara) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 22:48:22 -0800

I'm not the astronomer I wish I were. The description of critical degrees
and sine curves sounds remarkably like biorhythm critical days. Is there a
similarity I haven't heard about before? I know Moby Dick did some research
on astrology and biorhythms, but I don't remember anything relating them to
critical degrees.

And if I'm off topic, I apologize. I'm new and fascinated, but I don't
intend to create a detour.

Mary O



Thread: Houses' Systems
From: Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:56:41 -0800

To everybody,
Hello!
I would like to discuss the houses' systems with anyone who whishes to. The point is not
technical, but philosophycal: I know the different house systems, their history, the
arguments used pro and contra, and so on, but this is not the matter.
The point is the difference between real and virtual. When we work with the Zodiac we
assume it is virtual, giving it no real existence, what does not mean it is not efficient
as a tool. It is efficient, indeed. Laymen try to discredit Astrology by presenting facts
that evidence the inexistence of the Zodiac: a thirteenth costellation, for example. But
the fact of its inexistence in the domain of the reality, not tangible, is well known by
the astrologers, and mean no difference at all. Like statistics, we work with a
representation, or archetip, or symbol, or whatever we want to name it, and its
virtuality does not implicate its efficiency. Perhaps this is not as clear as it should
be, and we find secular discussions on if the signs correspond to the constellations as
in the "beginning"; the signs have never corresponded to the constellations, nor were
they ever supposed to. We simply don't have no 30 degrees constellations! As each one of
it has its own lenght and the ensemble is not fairly divided it means that they where
only used as reference in naming a concept, the Zodiac, and that it is equally divided
and just represents the sky (should I say heaven?).
This was and introductory bias, for what I would like to discuss is: since we work with a
virtual tool, the Zodiac, how could we tune it up with a "real" system, without loosing
its own characteristic and so its efficiency? And here I'm talking about the house
systems. The different systems usually used are Regiomontanus, Koch, Placidus,
Topocentric and so on. Seldom we see professionals using the Equal House system. But this
would be the only one coherent with the tropical Zodiac system. As I said in the
beginning we are working with virtual tools, and do not suppose any reality to the house
system as well. I mean, I do not believe that digging the ground in the east I'll find
myself, or that standing in the west I'll stay in my partner's place... that's surely not
the way it works! So I admit the house systems is also a virtual tool, and if it is
virtual it is not submitted to earthen contingencies, as a matter of fact. By giving
sequence to this though I arrive at the conclusion that only a system that gives a
pre-existing division of houses is adjusted to work with a system that gives a
pre-existing division of the signs.
On the other hand all the other systems have conceptual issues that are hard to deal
with, as:
1. the birth place would determine collective identities and differences when compared to
other places in earth, which means that the whole planet do not share a comom
relationship with the Zodiac, but that are priviledged places in earth to be born, and
nasty ones. Which can mean we could establish a sort of geographic astrology, for me it
just sounds absurd!
I've read once something very intelligent about how the Esquimos live a common destiny
shown in their charts by having a tiny first and second house and a huge tenth and
eleventh; the author (unfortunately I can't remember who it was) developed the idea that
this chart representation, due to the high latitude of their birth place, was perfectly
describing their way of living: the individuals have to submit their purpose to the group
that is more important than one single life because of the inhospitable environment. It
does make sense. But what about the Bedouins, in the Saara desert, that is as
inhospitable as the Alaska, but their houses have almost equal sizes in every system
because they live near the Equator? Does that mean that the individual have the same
importance as the group in this case?
2. the intercepted signs matter comes out as a pseudo-problem, since in equal house
systems there's no occurence of it.
I just expose you some ideas of mine, in order to begin a discussion, if you ever are
interested in doing so. Thank you, anyway, for you attention.
love
Carla



Thread: House systems
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:25:08 -0800

Hello Ya'll,

When I first started studying astrology, about 26 years ago, I wondered
about the different house systems amoung other things. I tried
everything I could find including Carl Payne Tobey's "Astrology of Inner
Space". I decided to stay with more traditional astrology than Tobey's.
The different house systems I tried were limited by my isolation in
rural MS. I had one book of Lilly's work that my ex burnt when she got
religion, a Campanus table of houses and a Placidus table of houses. I
tried the four house systems I had available; Campanus, Placidus, Equal
house, and Lilly's variation on the equal house. What I found was a
small change in perception on the same inquiry into each house system.
In other words they all worked. I had learned with the Placidian house
system so I stayed with that system. When I heard of the Koch system I
tried that with the same results. I agree the Equal house system makes
more sense to my intellect. We have to use our intellect to learn the
basics of astrology so we can actually learn astrology. For me my
interpertations come from beyond the intellect. I am not psychic. If I
was psychic I would not need astrology, but my readings are only partly
intellect. At the Project Hindsight Conclave this summer it was stated
that (I have no idea how to spell the name) French scientists'
accumulation of astrological data pointed to the Placidian system. I
read somewhere, I think it was a Cyril Fagan book, that there was no
houses before Ptolemy. In other words, whatever system suits your fancy
works.

Your friendly redneck astrologer,
Kent


Thread: (Fwd) More about "Horary for Dummies"
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:21:50 -0800

Marcelo,

I think this is the chart you wanted to see: View it with Courier font.

Will Clinton rent me White house?
DATA 11 Nov 1996
7.02 A.M. (5)
73.04 WEST
41.16 NORTH
10H 33M 22S
Regiomontanus

07 LIB 06 VIR 26 CAN

* MA06Vir * *

VE15Lib NN05Lib *

* * *

01 SCO * 20 GEM

* * * * *

* * *

SU19Sco * * * * *

MO23Sco * * *

* * ** * ** * *

* *

* *

23 SCO ****************** ******************* 23 TAU

ME25Sco * *

PF27Sco * *

PL02Sag * * ** * ** * *

* * *

* *UR01Aqu* * *

* JU14Cpr * *

* NE25Cpr * * * *

20 SAG * 01 TAU

* * *

* SN05Ari

* * SA01Ari *

26 CPR 06 PIS 07 ARI



>
>----------
From: Carol A. Wiggers
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 1996 2:07 AM
To: Members
Subject: (Fwd) More about "Horary for Dummies"

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 00:30:13 -0200 (EDT)
To: Members <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
From: Marcelo Ivanovitch <ivanovitch@pobox.com>
Subject: More about "Horary for Dummies"


Hi, Tony and fellow listers!

I'm still a traditional astrology's basic student (hey,
people, I'm
a dummie!) and this list is an excellent experience for me. Thanks
everybody who takes part of it with questions and explanations!

Tell me, Tony, did you still have the mail where you wrote
about
your next books? You've done a horary question with 41N16/73w04
("Siblings and Landlords") and I suppose it's your fixed location but
I'm not sure about the date and hour you sent this mail to the list
(11-8-96/19:09:49?)... As you can imagine I'd like to see this chart.
I confess I'm really impressed with the people's reaction about the
"Dummie Title" and the Melrose's revelations "Tony_Lab IS Anthony
Louis!" ;) - I know many people who was very excited with this
information...

Light and Love,


Marcelo Ivanovitch
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil





==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations
cwiggers@halcyon.com
http://www.horary.com
phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919



Thread: My water test
From: jmetz <jmetz@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:08:29 -0800

Hi Tony and all-I will have answers by Dec 2 when the retest is done and
the results are in. I am losing money on this house already so it makes
a bad situation a worse one. Thank you for your input. I do apprecciate
it and I'll let you know!




Thread: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From: Hideaki Kokubu <kokubu@est.co.jp> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 20:51:31 -0800

Dear Tony,

> Are the critcal degrees actual whole degrees like the dark and pitted degrees
> that Lilly discusses?
>
> Or, are the critical degrees whole degree segment at whose centers lie the
> cusps of the Lunar Mansions?

I would say the latter. But it's not whole degree, exactly speaking.
It's just like a dot.

When a sine curve turns from plus to minus, or from minus to plus, it
goes across zero. The critical degrees are very similar to the zero.

However, a planet being near the critical degrees is certainly
affected.
A sine curve has no width, but a planet has its diameter.

Regards,

Hideaki


Thread: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 00:27:56 -0800
Status: U


Superb explanation, Hideaki. Thanks. It may not have been my question, but
I am certainly appreciative of such a lucid reply. I have often wondered just
how much relevance should be placed on the critical degrees, knowing absolutely
nothing about them. Thanks to Tony for the question and Hideaki for the reply

Regards

Angela



Thread: More about "Horary for Dummies"
From: Marcelo Ivanovitch <ivanovitch@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 18:28:45 -0800


Hi, Tony and fellow listers!

I'm still a traditional astrology's basic student (hey, people, I'm
a dummie!) and this list is an excellent experience for me. Thanks everybody
who takes part of it with questions and explanations!

Tell me, Tony, did you still have the mail where you wrote about
your next books? You've done a horary question with 41N16/73w04 ("Siblings
and Landlords") and I suppose it's your fixed location but I'm not sure
about the date and hour you sent this mail to the list
(11-8-96/19:09:49?)... As you can imagine I'd like to see this chart. I
confess I'm really impressed with the people's reaction about the "Dummie
Title" and the Melrose's revelations "Tony_Lab IS Anthony Louis!" ;) - I
know many people who was very excited with this information...

Light and Love,


Marcelo Ivanovitch
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil






Thread: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:21:20 -0800

Fellow Listers:

I've been thinking a lot lately about the "critical degrees" that come from
Vedic astrology and are the cusps of the Mansions of the Moon. I do find that
they indicate crises in horary questions. Any experts out there? Here are
my questions:

Are the critcal degrees actual whole degrees like the dark and pitted degrees
that Lilly discusses?

Or, are the critical degrees whole degree segment at whose centers lie the
cusps of the Lunar Mansions?

Or are they something different entirely?

Tony


Thread: My water test
From: jmetz <jmetz@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:42:59 -0800

Thank you Tony for your input-it makes sense to me using the 4th as the
underground well. I am responsible for making it right so the cost to do
so is mine (being a Taurean, I hope its not going to be too much!) Just
one more question for you-The moon will sq Jupiter and Neptune on this
chart after it trines Mercury. Do you say Jupiter/Neptune is the buyer
since it is in the 7th? Do you think that means she'll back out of the
deal? This isn't a buy /sell chart. Also she is in the l0th and she did
contact the authorities to find out about well water and what it means
etc. These final aspects concern me or shouldn't they? The moon also
oppose Venus my hopes and wishes. Help-Panic is setting in by the second
as I am writing this-Thanks Janis




Thread: (Fwd) beseiged
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:58:41 -0800

Hi Despina,

I know that traditionally speaking 'beseigment' only takes place when a planet
is between the two malefics (opinion seeming to vary as to whether this is
within the same sign or regardless of how many signs intervene). However, I do
take your point about it seeming to say something if by aspect, whether it
could be called beseigement, though, is another matter. I think it is things
like this which are always down to the intuitive reaction of the astrologer
who is interpreting the chart. Rules are there for guidance and adherence,
butthere will always be an 'X' factor - even Lilly says something to this
effect in CA, advising the student to always apply his own interpretation as
well as using the rule book as a framework, and this seems to be a good
example of just that.

Traditionally, no it is not beseigment, but, like you, I would wonder what it
is saying, especially as we are talking about the Moon here, which, even if
not significator of the quesited, is always co significator of the quesitor, so
it would indicate, I would have thought, that the person asking the question
is possibly going through a very restricted time, unable to act or influence
things in any way; maybe this shows other people around who are pulling the
strings in the her circumstances at the moment. I do agree with your line of
thought, but I guess there is no justification for the term in the traditional
rule book.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: lesleyss@cadvision.com (L. Stuart-Smith) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:22:41 -0800

Hi Tony - not to be a wet blanket or doomsayer (she says with Capricorn
rising...), but I believe that the "<insert title> for Dummies" is a
copyrighted, registered trademark of IDG Books - rgds, Lesley

p.s. But hey, it's still a great title! Maybe IDG would be interested in
publishing an Astrology book?



Thread: Retraction
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:24:20 -0800

OOPS! I read too fast. I thought the besiegement was all in Leo.

Kent


Thread: (Fwd) beseiged
From: Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:40:01 -0800

Carol A. Wiggers wrote:
>
> ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:28:31 -0200 (GMT)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> From: Despina Giannakopoulou <despinag@hol.gr>
> Subject: beseiged
>
> Hi,
> Working on a chart I found the Moon in 11.00 of Leo in the second
> house, she has just seperated from Mars at 4.00 Leo and she was
> forming a square to Saturn at 11.25 degrees to Taurus. Does any body
> know whether or not this can be called Moon beseiged by aspect?
> Despina.
>
> ==================================
> William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
> privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
> Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
> software and horary consultations
> cwiggers@halcyon.com
> http://www.horary.com
> phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919

Hi,
Only if the Moon is the significator of the question.
Blessings, Thomas
--

Thomas Seers AMAFA
Northridge, CA 91324
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own.


Thread: Beseiged
From: Despina Giannakopoulou <despinag@hol.gr> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 04:28:27 -0800

Hi,
Working on a chart I found the Moon in 11.00 of Leo in the second house,
she has just seperated from Mars at 4.00 Leo and she was forming a square
to Saturn at 11.25 degrees to Taurus. Does any body know whether or not
this can be called Moon beseiged by aspect?
Despina.



Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 04:30:35 -0800

Mary,

Carol wlll put a notice in the HP when the book is available.

Tony


Thread: Horary for dummies
From: Sylvia Wilson <sylviaw@powerup.com.au> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 04:17:11 -0800

I am fairly new to this list, been lurking for a while and now have decided
to make a comment. I agree that as astrologers we do at times tend to take
ourselves too seriously. This does not always go down well with me as I am a
double sag. I have been involved with computers for many many years (I'm
not about to reveal how many) and yet I still buy the computer "Dummies"
books when I want to learn something new. Although Linda - our Tassie friend
gave me a brief rundown on the internet when I went on to it, I have
recently purchased the Internet book for dummies.
I'm not offended by it and I think Horary for Dummies is a great title. My
first book on horary was your book Tony had for a number of years will
reread now I have just also completed the Horary course with Deborah
Houlding here in Aussie. Don't forget to let me know when you become a
granny Linda.

Sylvia Wilson.



Thread: (Fwd) Re: my water test
From: jmetz <jmetz@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:24:35 -0800

Carol-I received your response and am aware of the horary basics of a
buy/sell chart. However, this situation does concern me as I am in
contract already (so the i have found my buyer already)and this issue of
water came up. I was hoping for someone to give me info regarding
specifically the water issue, will it be corrected because if it can't
be easily corrected, I may not be able to sell to her or anyone or it
will cost me thousands of dollars for a new well or maybe a new well
can't even be put in if the contamination is really a problem! So I do
appreciate your response, but I need more details as indicated in my
first note-where do I look for the well or water or the mechanicals of a
house? I mentioned that I thought the 6th-Since my first note, the buyer
has called me and asked if anyone is sick from the water in my house.I
told her the well repair man will be here first thing in the morning and
I don't expect her to buy a house that doesn't have drinkable water. I
am told this can be fixed easily by chlorination so that is why I asked
the question. Thanks Janis




Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:43:59 -0800

At 01:06 PM 11/11/96 +8, Carol A. Wiggers wrote:
>
>Dear Tony, Allen and Linda & ALL,
>I guess if we want to play it safe and have everyone like us and be
>politically correct we can call the book "Horary Basics". I myself
>think that we need to have more of a sence of humor in astrology.

I couldn't agree more - and in life too - I have a premise - if I can't
make my client laugh - just once - even in the darkest of times,
I've failed - laughter is the most healing of energies and one in
which we can all share. We also have to keep a perspective on
our astrology too - and I risk the wrath of many here when I say,
as I say to my students - have some fun - we are not looking
for a cure for cancer - and the general public will not,
in our life time, see astrology as therapy, but simply want
answers to their dilemmas - we have no different a public profile
than the Tarot reader or psychic - whether we like it or not. So
while we can take our subject seriously, we shouldn't take ourselves
seriously too!

>Yes, it is a serious subject but if you have ever had some of the
>questions I have had posed to me by my clients you learn to develop
>the humor fast. My favorite---"will you do an electional chart to
>find out when the best time would be for my boyfriend and I to have
>sex so that I can have multiple orgasm", or "When will the mothership
>be here to pick me up".

I'd love to know your answer - to both!

Come on it's just a book title and if people
>are going to be offended that easily then they really don't want to
>get into horary where your answers are always open to criticism. The
>other reason it sounded like a good title was over ther years while
>teaching this course I have had students that have studied extremely
>hard and at one time or another came across something that they just
>couldn't understand. They were trying to make it too difficult and
>when it was broken down into simple terms they would then understand.

I experience call my series of School Manuals "Step by Step Astrology" I
wish I'd though of Dummies!

Regards,

Linda Reid

>



Thread: Not my daughter's dilemma!
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:44:18 -0800

At 09:30 PM 11/11/96 UT, Tony_ Lab wrote:
>Linda,
>
>Great to hear your writing a book on dreams. I like the idea of a catchy
>title. Here's another suggestion: The Astrology of Inner Space.
>
>Please let us know when it will be availbable.
>
>Tony

I understand from the copy editor that it's at the printers
- so I can't change the title now!
Expected publication date is the end of May 97.

Thanks for the interest. I like your suggestion - darn - too late!

Linda
>
>



Thread: My water test
From: jmetz <jmetz@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:25:42 -0800

Hi friends-
I am selling my house and we have a well for water. The buyer tested the
water and the report came back indicating that the water was
undrinkable. I am having it chlorinated tomorrow to fix it and my
question is will the well be okay after that? I am worried that this
glitch could jeopardize the sale! The time of my question is 7:07 pm est
nov 20 1996 41n21 73w. I don't like that I sq the buyer (moon sq
Jupiter) but the mechanics of the house, I am using the 6th house which
gives me a trine to Mercury but also a sq to Jupiter. I just am not sure
how to read this. Please help. I am flipping out! Thanks Janis
jmetz@ix.netcom.com




Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:30:27 -0800

Angela,

Thanks for the kind words. Carol Wiggers suggested a short book on horary
that would be simple and to the point, easy to understand, and at the same
time not shy away from useful traditional ideas and techniques. That's what
I'm now working on. As you know, it's sometimes hard to understand all those
old techniques - beholding, antiscions, Almutens, collections, translations,
and so on. But they really do work and have a lot to offer to us modern
astrologers.

Best Wishes,

Tony


Thread: My daughter's dilemma
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:32:56 -0800

Linda,

Great to hear your writing a book on dreams. I like the idea of a catchy
title. Here's another suggestion: The Astrology of Inner Space.

Please let us know when it will be availbable.

Tony


Thread: My daughter's dilemma
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:00:21 -0800

At 12:36 PM 11/11/96 UT, Tony_ Lab wrote:
>Linda,
>
>How is your daughter doing with the pregnancy? Has the baby turned yet?
>Please keep us posted.
>
>Best Wishes,
>
>Tony

Hi Tony,

News to date is that the baby turned 10 days ago, when Charmaine finished
work, but returned to a breach position 3 days later. Charmaine is going
for another scan this week as time for delivery looms closer. I think we
have a very self willed child in the offing! Thanks for your interest. By
the way, I have a book about to be published by Arkana - I originally called
it " The Horary of Dreams" - because it is about using a chart for the time
of waking from a dream, however, Erin Sullivan suggested a "Catchy" title
from the commercial point of view - so it will be called " Crossing the
Threshold - the Astrology of Dreaming" - I'm not sure how catchy that is. I
quite like your title "Horary for Dummies " in this cybertime most people
are familiar with the "for Dummies" series and why not catch on the a theme
- I can't imagine anyone being offended by it. I just did a week's Horary
course with Deborah Houlding, here in Australia, to try to hone some of my
'neglected' traditional skills.

Will keep you posted

Best wishes,

Linda
>
>



Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: ENTRTAINR@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:04:57 -0800
Status: U

In a message dated 96-11-11 02:43:44 EST, you write:

<<
>> I'm sure Carol will read your comments. Any ideas for a different title
(other than Dummies)? >>


Hi,

I am a newcomer to the list, but would like to send an opinion if I may. I
have no problem with the title "Horary for Dummies". To the contrary - when
I am researching or trying to learn something new, I will grab the first one
with the "dummie" title. This way I know I will be getting information on a
very basic level which will be easy to understand and assimilate. Then I
will be able to go further with "non-dummie" books. In my opinion, the title
is great, it signals me that this is one I will understand and be able to put
to use right away. If your goal is to give information in an easy,
non-intimidating way, than your title says it all.

Go for it!

L'Aquarienne


Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:34:33 -0800
Status: U

allen edwall wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> >> I'm sure Carol will read your comments. Any ideas for a different title
> (other than Dummies)?
>
> I have no problem with the title. I think people are over-sensitive about things
> that aren't meant to denigrate, just entertain, inform, and to make a point.
> Heck, if we wanted to, we could get bent out of shape about everything and take
> it all the wrong way. People do too much of that today as it is. Why are people
> so sensitive these days? It's not a big deal in my mind.
>
> In the computer world, I do not think anyone has a problem with this title. And,
> hey, like it or not, it is a computer world.
>
> Allen

Hi Allen,
I'm new to the list, but not to life so I'll side with you on
this. What's wrong with people today is the chaos ( earth shift ) that's
coming, they feel but can't put a finger on what there feeling. That
insecurity is
what has them picking on everything and anything.
Blessings, Thomas
--

Thomas Seers AMAFA
Northridge, CA 91324
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own.


Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:28:20 -0800
Status: U

I must admit, I agree with Allen. I do see Linda's point, but, after all said
and done, whatever you're trying to market, it has to be done in an attention
grabbing way, and this title does just that. Plus, it says it all in three
short words - it grabs your attention (be it good or bad, it grabs it!!);
tells you it's about horary; and also tells you it's about as simplistic as it
gets!! What more could you want. I think it would grab my eye far more than
something as mundane as Interpreting/Understanding Horary - I'm afraid I would
look at something of that ilk and think 'Oh yeah, another astrology book.' -
end of interest. No, this title is short, sweet and punchy - the fact that it's
mildly offensive is what it's all about - and it works!!

Re Dorothy's posting - ditto! Grand to meet you Tony. In company with most
other astrology folk, yours was the first book I bought when I became
inveigled by horary. I also look forward to the next one - whatever it's
called.

Regards

Angela



Thread: My daughter's dilemma
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:39:48 -0800
Status: U

Linda,

How is your daughter doing with the pregnancy? Has the baby turned yet?
Please keep us posted.

Best Wishes,

Tony


Thread: Siblings and landlords
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:36:22 -0800
Status: U

Richard,

I've been thinkig about your question and had some other ideas.
Regarding the appendix to my book, I had cautioned the reader that those were
only guidelines and that the symbolic meaning of the question as viewed in the
chart should be the guide.

I must have been thinking of feudal lords and their surfs when I put the 10th
for "land lords".

At 7:02 a.m. EST today 11 NOV 96 (tz 5, 41n16, 73w04) I thought of a
question that illustrates this point. "Will Bill Clinton rent me a room in
the White House?" Of course it is not a servious question, but it illustrates
the point.

Clinton as President is the 10th house. I think we would all agree to that,
but maybe not.

Clinton as the person I would deal with to rent the room (see Sue Ward's
comments) would be the 7th, which rules people we make business deals with.

I am the first and the room at the White House is the 4th.

In this chart the Moon is just rising on the Scorpio Ascendant and 1-ruler
Mars is exactly at the Virgo MC (President Clinton who I at the Ascendant am
thinking about). The Virgo MC is exactly conjunct my natal Part of Fortune!
Maybe I should try for a room at the White House.

Anyway, the 7th has a Taurus Cusp so Venus represents the person who has the
room for rent (Clinton again, but from a different functional perspective).

There is no connection between Venus (Clinton) and me (Moon, Mars), so it
seems unlikely I will make a deal with him. Also, my significators are both
peregrine, so I am pretty powerless in the situation.

Mars (me), however, will trine 4-ruler Jupiter (the room), so maybe there is
some hope.

Best Wishes and see you at the White House,

Tony


Thread: Siblings and landlords
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 17:50:26 -0800

Richard,

Thanks for your insightful comments. You are right that I had put the 10th as
ruling the landlord in the appendix to my text. I had compiled that appendix
ten years ago from the literature I had available at the time. Since then I
have done a lot more charts and read much more of the classical literature as
it has become available. I guess as I've gotten older I've also gotten more
traditional and I would now take the landlord to be the 7th house.

Regarding your comments on the Sara's baby chart, I think that radical charts
show the same information in multiple ways. The more we study some charts the
more we learn. This is certainly true of our natal charts. I am constantly
amazed when I find something new why I never noticed it before.

Regarding my 1991 text which is now out of print, I think I would do several
things differently now. I've been working on a revsion for Llewellyn but even
that will inevitably contain things I didn't exactly mean to say until someone
points them out. I do appreciate the feedback. It's good to hear from you
again after so many years.

Best Wishes,

Tony


Thread: Siblings and landlords
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 06:12:01 -0800

Tony wrote:

>Sue,
>
>Following Dorotheus and Lilly, I would also use the 7th for the landlord,
>seller, or one who offers the 4th house real estate for sale or lease.
>
>Regarding siblings, I think that Dariot (1583) implies the notion of skipping
>houses in his discussion, although he does not explicitly mention it. On p.
>51 of the Just Us edition, Dariot says that the 2nd house "doth always give
>certain judgments of the substance or riches of the house that goes before
>him" He is clearly talking about the second house of any new first house
>around the wheel. Dariot goes on to say that the 3rd house alwasy gives
>judgment "of the brethren" of any new first house in a turned chart (my
>paraphrase). Dariot is saying that the third house from any house bears a
>sibling relationship to its own "first" house.
>
>Thus, using Dariot's reasoning, the radical third is the sibling of the
>radical 1st. The radical 5th, being the third of the radical 3rd, gives
>judgment of the sibling of the sibling, and so on around the wheel.

Ok, I think I'm following you, but I'm not sure how this would work in
practical terms. I'm not sure also how far you can take the 2nd house as a
resource of the 1st. Yes, the chart can be turned in many ways, but always
with reference to the 1st, as you say. So, in your example, the 1st is the
querent and the 3rd is their sibling with the 5th as the sibling's sibling.
But this can become confusing to say the least when there are more than 6
children in the family and the 7th sibling returns to the radical 1st.

Also, I'm not quite sure how or why the difference is made: the radical 3rd
describes the siblings of the Asc, the 5th describes the children of the
Asc, so by 'skipping' houses for subsequent siblings you are altering their
relationship to the querent. Ie, whilst the 3rd and 4th sibings (and so on)
are siblings of one another, they are also siblings of the person
represented by the Asc.

>Dariot is explicit in saying that these house spacings "take their beginning
>at every house, whereby it comes to pass that the other houses have more
>diverse and almost infinite significations..." Sure sounds like he has
>skipping of houses in mind.
>
I think I probably disagree here, in that he is talking about
straightforward chart turning in my view. I don't think this is the same
thing, if I understand you correctly.

Regards

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:54:03 -0800

Hi,

>> I'm sure Carol will read your comments. Any ideas for a different title
(other than Dummies)?

I have no problem with the title. I think people are over-sensitive about things
that aren't meant to denigrate, just entertain, inform, and to make a point.
Heck, if we wanted to, we could get bent out of shape about everything and take
it all the wrong way. People do too much of that today as it is. Why are people
so sensitive these days? It's not a big deal in my mind.

In the computer world, I do not think anyone has a problem with this title. And,
hey, like it or not, it is a computer world.


Allen



Thread: Book Title "Horary for Dummies"
From: Daphne313@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 03:12:35 -0800

Linda Wrote:
>>>

I would very respectfully like to say that I think the recent spate of books
(eg. "Internet for..." ; Word Perfect for...)with "Dummies" in the title is
a very bad idea and seldefeating for the author/publisher, for several
reasons. First, people who dont think of themselves as dummies will run
right by that particular book on the shelf, and "Dummies" isnt really what
is meant anyway. Isnt the real idea to suggest that the book contains a
basic approach to a topic? Why insult the potential reader needlessly
because s/he may be innocent, or as yet uninformed, about a topic? Surely
there is something better than as another in the list of Dummies booktitles.

best to all, looking forward to the book whatever it gets called
Linda

<<<

I completely understand your feelings on this. However, this series of
books began in the computer area (if I'm not mistaken) and are so widely
recognizable and sell like crazy. This series of books has about become the
standard for computer reference and has already branched into different
areas. I think it would add sales, although I don't know whether or not
there are any legal issues with using that.

As for an alternate name per Tony's post, I would think something like
"Practical Methods of Horary Astrology" would be good--or 'Practical Horary''
other words I might use would be basic, beginning, Understanding,
Interpreting (always a good title buzzword for me). The other thing might be
to try and name it as a textbook to give people the idea that it is written
more as a learning tool.

I do really feel the book title is important, but I think the best way to
select one might be to just be real clear about what you want the book itself
to accomplish for others and a title should soon follow.

Hope this helps! And please let me know what the title eventually ends up
being, I am really interested in this subject!

Sally



Thread: Landlord and Siblings]
From: Beg <ribeg@tm.net.my> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 05:56:21 -0800
Status: U

Dear Andy,

> Question 1:
> Alternate suggestions included the fact that the 4th rules our home, and,
> since the house is a possession of the landlord it follows that the 4th
> appears as the 2nd from the landlord who must therefore be represented by
> the 3rd house.
> Another suggestion is that the landlord is 'the other person' (7th) whose
> authority (10th) crosses the person's home (4th).
> Any suggestions ...

Sharing from experience: much of how the residence is positioned in the
mind of the querent plays an important role in considering the
appropriate houses to consider and analyse. Is it still and will
continue to be someone else's house to the person? Or does he already
regard it with powerful attachment and desire, accepting that it's just
a matter of time before it's going to be his own. Finally taking this
into consideration has helped me make more reliable analyses for
clients. But if the subject regards himself definitely as a transiting
tenant, then I take the typical stance: the other party's house; a.k.a.
4th to the 7th = 10th house. Check out the 10th.

I hope this helps. Get back to me anyone, please. I appreciate your
kind input.


ribeg@usa.net


Thread: Siblings and landlords
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 17:52:54 -0800

Sue,

Following Dorotheus and Lilly, I would also use the 7th for the landlord,
seller, or one who offers the 4th house real estate for sale or lease.

Regarding siblings, I think that Dariot (1583) implies the notion of skipping
houses in his discussion, although he does not explicitly mention it. On p.
51 of the Just Us edition, Dariot says that the 2nd house "doth always give
certain judgments of the substance or riches of the house that goes before
him" He is clearly talking about the second house of any new first house
around the wheel. Dariot goes on to say that the 3rd house alwasy gives
judgment "of the brethren" of any new first house in a turned chart (my
paraphrase). Dariot is saying that the third house from any house bears a
sibling relationship to its own "first" house.

Thus, using Dariot's reasoning, the radical third is the sibling of the
radical 1st. The radical 5th, being the third of the radical 3rd, gives
judgment of the sibling of the sibling, and so on around the wheel.

Dariot is explicit in saying that these house spacings "take their beginning
at every house, whereby it comes to pass that the other houses have more
diverse and almost infinite significations..." Sure sounds like he has
skipping of houses in mind.

Fondly,

Tony


Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 17:52:24 -0800

Linda,

I'm sure Carol will read your comments. Any ideas for a different title
(other than Dummies)?

Tony

----------
From: Linda Reilly
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 1996 2:20 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Book title "Horary for Dummies"


>
>Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm actually working on a short book on
>horary for Carol Wiggers (she suggested Horary for Dummies as a title). It
>should be ready in the spring. Also, if you're interested, this month
>Llewellyn just published my book Tarot Plain and Simple (by Anthony Louis, my

>pen name).
>
>Tony


I would very respectfully like to say that I think the recent spate of books
(eg. "Internet for..." ; Word Perfect for...)with "Dummies" in the title is
a very bad idea and seldefeating for the author/publisher, for several
reasons. First, people who dont think of themselves as dummies will run
right by that particular book on the shelf, and "Dummies" isnt really what
is meant anyway. Isnt the real idea to suggest that the book contains a
basic approach to a topic? Why insult the potential reader needlessly
because s/he may be innocent, or as yet uninformed, about a topic? Surely
there is something better than as another in the list of Dummies booktitles.

best to all, looking forward to the book whatever it gets called
Linda





Thread: Book title "Horary for Dummies"
From: Linda Reilly <lcreil@malthus.morton.wm.edu> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 11:13:02 -0800
Status: U


>
>Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm actually working on a short book on
>horary for Carol Wiggers (she suggested Horary for Dummies as a title). It
>should be ready in the spring. Also, if you're interested, this month
>Llewellyn just published my book Tarot Plain and Simple (by Anthony Louis, my
>pen name).
>
>Tony


I would very respectfully like to say that I think the recent spate of books
(eg. "Internet for..." ; Word Perfect for...)with "Dummies" in the title is
a very bad idea and seldefeating for the author/publisher, for several
reasons. First, people who dont think of themselves as dummies will run
right by that particular book on the shelf, and "Dummies" isnt really what
is meant anyway. Isnt the real idea to suggest that the book contains a
basic approach to a topic? Why insult the potential reader needlessly
because s/he may be innocent, or as yet uninformed, about a topic? Surely
there is something better than as another in the list of Dummies booktitles.

best to all, looking forward to the book whatever it gets called
Linda



Thread: Siblings and landlords
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 09:44:09 -0800
Status: U

Thought I'd pick up on this thread if no-one minds it being extended a
little. The 7th is the landlord, although I can understand why someone would
want to look at the 10th. The 7th is for the person we have dealings with,
whether business or any other. If there is a tenancy deal going through,
then the 7th would be the point of entry. There might be variations arising
later on in other matters, but I think that a tenancy is a business deal
like any other.

Regarding siblings, I would support Tony's comment that it is modern, at
least I can't remember having come across the idea of different signs or
houses for different siblings. As far as Lilly is concerned, they belong to
the 3rd. Fertile or dual signs can indicate more than one (as usual) and
further than that planets in the 3rd or close aspects to those planets, or
the ruler, might be descriptive of a number of siblings.

Lilly says: "some say, so many Planets as are in the house [the 3rd], or
that the Lord of the third is in aspect with, so many Brothers or Sisters
the Querent hath; but I ever held it too scrupulous to require such
particulars from a Question:" (page 195 CA).

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Back on line from computer crash" Again"! 2nd since 4/96 {{Must be LOVE & /or Addiction}}
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 09:43:53 -0800
Status: U

Ginger wrote:

>HELLO, HI, HOW ARE YA,
>
>Oh Boy, Oh Boy, Goodie, Goodie, I'm back.! Oh, it is so great. I just
>missed everybody. I missed the mail, I missed all that good
>information(Astrology), I missed all the interaction, I missed the humor

Good Grief! Are you sure you've got the right list? Have I missed something?

Anyway, glad all your problems are sorting out - nice to hear from you.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Re: landlords and siblings
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 08:11:41 -0800
Status: U

>Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 22:23:34 -0700
>To: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>
>From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>
>Subject: re: landlords and siblings
>Cc: william_lilly@halcyon
>
>At 04:44 PM 11/8/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>For the landlord I would have looked at the 10th from the fourth. The
>>landlord having authority over the home of the individual.
>
>Dear Kent,
>This is very good reasoning except, then who is the questioner? If the 1st
always represents the querent, and spinning the chart that way you suggest,
the 10th from the 4th is the 1st.
>
>> It was my understanding when looking for children on a chart you do not
>>use the same house twice.
>This is also my understanding.
>
>> When you get to the 5th house after one trip
>>around the chart you advance one house.
>Now what do you mean, if you go from Leo onthe 5th is the next a virgo?
>I was taught that you advance the chart 2 (a sextile) houses as
representative of the "casual relationship" 3rd house for each child, so the
1st would be the 5th the 2nd child would be the 7th, the 3rd the 9th, the
4th the 11th and so on. I think this works primarily in horary, I have not
seen it work cleanly in natal charts, however...
>
>dot.
>
>> I don't know where I got that.
>>It could have been the Conclave, a book by Marc Edmund Jones or some
>>place else.
>> Looking for siblings on the mother's chart, I would think the houses in
>>order that they were born the same as above.
>>
>> Kent
>>
>>
>>
>



Thread: NA Humor Hall of Scorpios
From: motive@juno.com (Lee Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 11:56:27 -0800
Status: U

Greetings All

I am a Scorpio, and to celebrate my birthday Hobbit style I have made these delightful little fellows up as gifts to anybody that would like to
use one of them for their personal signature art on their posts. If your
a Scorpio I know you like to say it with intensity and destination.

Lee
motive@juno.com
{_o_}
=()=
J


Hall of Scorpio's {_o_}
=()=
=()=
{_o_} J
==
==
J

Scorpio on a diet.

{_ o _}
=(O)=
=(O)=
J
Over weight Scorpio.

{_ 0 _}
=()=
=()=
J
Scorpio will big head.

{_o_}
=()=
=()=
=()=
=()=
J
Tall Scorpio

{_o_}
=()=
J
Scorpio baby.

{_o_}
++
+
J
Fem. Scorpio in bikini.

{_o_}
==
#
J
Male Scorpio in a bikini.

{_ 0 _}
=(@)=
=(@)=
J
Scorpio pregnant with twins.

{_o_}
=(#)=
=(&)=
J
Scorpio with tattoos.
Yes, she has Mars on the Asc.

{_o_}
=(*)=
=( )=
J
Scorpio policeman with badge.

{_ o _}
=($$)=
=($$)=
J
Rich Scorpio taking money out of the country.

[_o_]
=[]=
=[]=
L
Space Borge transformed Scorpio.


{_ O _}
={{ }}=
={ }=
J
Body building Scorpio with rippled abs.

{_o_}
=( )=
=(?)=
J
Scorpio with sexual identity crisis.

{_"o"_}
=U=
=U=
!
Scorpio in Halloween costume.

{_ o _}
>]:[<
>]:[<
J
Scorpio in a tuxedo.


Lee
Live & Kicking

{_o_}
=()=
J



Thread: US Presidential elections
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 22:24:15 -0800

WOW! My favorite author writing for mt favoite publisher, I think I died and
went to heaven. I look forward to making your book completely dog-earred.

fondly,
dorothy

At 02:53 AM 11/9/96 UT, you wrote:
I'm actually working on a short book on
>horary for Carol Wiggers (she suggested Horary for Dummies as a title). It
>should be ready in the spring. Also, if you're interested, this month
>Llewellyn just published my book Tarot Plain and Simple (by Anthony Louis, my
>pen name).
>
>Tony
>
>----------
>From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach
>Sent: Friday, November 08, 1996 7:40 PM
>To: Sue Miller
>Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Re: US Presidential elections
>
> A second thanks to Tony, for more brilliant and clear horary readings.
> More charts please!!!
>
>



Thread: US Presidential elections
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:55:00 -0800

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm actually working on a short book on
horary for Carol Wiggers (she suggested Horary for Dummies as a title). It
should be ready in the spring. Also, if you're interested, this month
Llewellyn just published my book Tarot Plain and Simple (by Anthony Louis, my
pen name).

Tony

----------
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach
Sent: Friday, November 08, 1996 7:40 PM
To: Sue Miller
Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: US Presidential elections

A second thanks to Tony, for more brilliant and clear horary readings.
More charts please!!!


Thread: US Presidential elections
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:56:18 -0800

A second thanks to Tony, for more brilliant and clear horary readings.
More charts please!!!


>Thank you for thinking with us through the information on that horary
>chart. You are a talented "explainer". I am a new student of Carol
>Wiggers Horary Course and really enjoyed looking at the data with you.
>Oh! By the way (BTW) he did win so you were incredibly right. Thanks
>for taking the leap of faith and posting BEFORE the face.
>
>Sue Miller
>aikido@juno.com
>
>
>



Thread: Landlord and Siblings
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:19:19 -0800

RE: question 1)
Lilly uses the 7th house for the land lord. This comes from an ancient rule
that can be found in Dorotheus in which the renter or purchaser belongs to
the Ascendant, the house to the 4th, the seller or one who owns and puts the
house for sale or rent (the landord) to the 7th, and the price or rent to the
10th.

(RE; Question 2 -stepping)
Stepping appears to be a more modern approach in Western astrology, I think
derived from Vedic techniques. My understanding would be that the person's
first or eldest sibling in her natal chart would be her 3rd house, her 2nd
siblilng (in birth order) would be the 5th, and so on. I have little
experience with this in natal charts.

hope this helps

Tony



Thread: Re: landlords and siblings
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:44:33 -0800

For the landlord I would have looked at the 10th from the forth. The
landlord having athority over the home of the individual.
It was my understanding when looking for children on a chart you do not
use the same house twice. When you get to the 5th house after one trip
around the chart you advance one house. I don't know where I got that.
It could have been the Conclave, a book by Marc Edmund Jones or some
place else.
Looking for siblings on the mother's chart, I would think the houses in
order that they were born the same as above.

Kent


Thread: Registered: Ian Goldsmith
From: Ian Goldsmith <igoldsmi@nla.gov.au> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:02:21 -0800




Thread: NOTWITHSTANDING
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 03:52:12 -0800

To Angela and Despina

Notwithstanding can mean excepting, too. So, what Liilly is saying on p.394
is that *except* for the fact that he got it right and the owner was very
pleased and grateful, he cannot stand questions of fugitives and thefts.

Hope this helps.

If anyone else has got any questions like this they want help with, I'll do
my best to answer and then that can be taken as a contribution to Carol's
glossary.

Sue

>Hi Angela,
>Being a horary student and while doing a lesson today which I have
>to sent to Carol I found "considentally" the word you are inquiring
>after:notwithstanding, LILLY,page 395 C.A. concerning a chart about
>a missing dog. I gave the same interpratation as tou did but I am
>wondering whether I am correct or not.
>Despina.
>
>
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Landlord and Siblings
From: "Gray,AL,Andy,NAI83,GRAYAL M" <GRAYAL@boat.bt.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 02:42:33 -0800


Question 1:

A simple question, when looking at 'other people in our charts', I was
stumped by which house would represent a person's landlord. I would have
initially thought it would be the 10th as the landlord commands a degree of
authority.

Alternate suggestions included the fact that the 4th rules our home, and,
since the house is a possession of the landlord it follows that the 4th
appears as the 2nd from the landlord who must therefore be represented by
the 3rd house.

Another suggestion is that the landlord is 'the other person' (7th) whose
authority (10th) crosses the person's home (4th).

Any suggestions ...

Question 2:

Again looking at 'other people in our charts' a woman who was the 9th child
in her family can be found in her mother's chart by starting at the 5th
house (1st child) and then stepping 2 houses per child. She therefore
appears as the 9th house wrt her mother.

How does she find her siblings within her own chart? Would her younger
sister (8th child appearing in her mother's 7th house) appear in her 11th,
stepping back 2 houses for each of her siblings?

Caveat: I have no rationale to support the use of derivatives for siblings
or partners but since starting to use that system, I have found it to yield
interesting results.

Regards
Andy (Confused)


Thread: Questions]
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 02:52:44 -0800

Superb interpretation, Dorothy!!

Regards

Angela



Thread: Back on line from computer crash" Again"! 2nd since 4/96
From: gingerk7@juno.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 00:48:56 -0800

HELLO, HI, HOW ARE YA,

Oh Boy, Oh Boy, Goodie, Goodie, I'm back.! Oh, it is so great. I just
missed everybody. I missed the mail, I missed all that good
information(Astrology), I missed all the interaction, I missed the humor
& jokes, I missed my computer, I missed hearing from people, and I was
not only lonesome, but board. Even tv sucks! I am so glad to be back. HI,
Hi, Hello Everybody. Gosh, is it Love or is it addition? Don't know,
Don't care. just so glad to be back. Would you believe it Guys, I went
down on the bewitching day/night ! "HALLOWEEN" That's FACT, Not
FICTION! I was just installing a new modem so I could go back on internet
line with MCI for better mail system for one reason, unaware that some of
the problems I had started to experience were from the power source of my
computer failing, stressing out the rest of the operation, contributing
to hard drive going bad. It's still in the shop, at least the warranty is
covering the part for hard drive, but for now I have a rental till I get
mine back. But, I am so so glad to be back. Clap- clap, <jumping up and
down, shouting> Ho Ray, Ho Ray! Just wanted to let you all know how glad
I am to be back, Also, in the near future I will be having a new E-Mail
address again, when I get all my stuff hooked up to my MCIintertnet.. So
I'll be talking to you all. I wonder, is it Love or is it Addition? Do
you suppose it's a little of both? Missed and love you all!
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
YOUR Cyber Friend,

GINGER K.



Thread: US Presidential elections
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 18:02:26 -0800

Mail received, thank you.


Thread: Questions]
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 09:27:20 -0800

Thread: NOTWITHSTANDING
From: Despina Giannakopoulou <despinag@hol.gr> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:50:15 -0800 (PST)

Hi Angela,
Being a horary student and while doing a lesson today which I have
to sent to Carol I found "considentally" the word you are inquiring
after:notwithstanding, LILLY,page 395 C.A. concerning a chart about
a missing dog. I gave the same interpratation as tou did but I am
wondering whether I am correct or not.
Despina.



Thread: International Congress Agenda
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:09:14 -0800


INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS AGENDA
=============================

Please feel free to copy and publish this information!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

8 - 10 November 1996 - 6th Fall Astrology congress, Oldenzaal, The
Netherlands, with Peter Delahaye, Kunnie Gras, Manfred M. Herm (Germany),
Marleen Gryp (Belgium), Cees Mak, Noel Tyl (USA). (No translations) Info:
phone/fax 31-20-6847823.

8 - 10 November 1996 - Congress "Prometheus Unbound: Directions for Astrology
in the 21st Century", Stockholm, Sweden. Info: Terassv. 6, S-191 44
Sollentuna, Sweden.

8 - 10 November 1996 - Quebec City's 5th International ESP Psychic Expo,
Congress Center of the City of Quebec, Canada, with Monique, Jojo Savard,
Denis Robert, etc. Info: phone 1-514-272-6808.

9 - 10 November 1996 - International Research Conference, London, England,
with Nick Campion, Geoffrey Cornelius, Graham Douglas, Prof. Suitbert Ertel,
Dr Francoise Gauquelin, Pat Harris, Robin Heath, Dr Nick Kollerstrom, Dr
Theodore Landscheidt, Dr Frank McGillion, Dr Peter Niehenke, Mike O'Neill,
Prof. Peter Roberts, Siegfried Schiemenz, Prof. Percy Seymour, Rudolf Smit.
Info: 44-171-700-3746. fax 44-171-700-6479. URL:
http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/index.html

9 - 10 November 1996 - The Norwegian Astrological Association Annual
Conference, Sundvolden Hotel, Krokkleiva near Oslo, Norway, with Astrid
Barlow, DFAstrolS (Norway), Anders B.Johansson, Ph.D. (Sweden), Per Kjaergaard
Rasmussen (Denmark), Norman Shine (Denmark), Sue Tompkins, DFAstrolS
(England). (No translations) Info: fax 47-22-571027, Email: astrolgi@sn.no

15 - 17 November 1996 - "Across Two Cultures: Digital Dreams 4" Conference
focusing on the relationship between art and science, Newcastle-upon-Tyne,
England, with Rosi Braidotti, Nicholas Campion, Regina Comwell, Sara Diamond,
Bruno Latour, Daniel Libeskind, Roger Penrose, etc. Info: phone
44-191-226-0093.

7 - 8 December 1996 - Astrology 2000: The Art of Prediction, Hunter College,
New York City, U.S.A., organized by the New York Chapter of the NCGR, with
Wendy Ashley, Claudia Bader, Patti Canova, Diane Cramer, Alison Diamond,
Ronnie Gale Dreyer, Meira Epstein, Doris Hebel, Ken Kimball, Michael Lutin,
John Marchesella, Eileen McCabe, Joan Negus, Ken Negus, Arlene Nimark, Chandra
Sammons, Mark Seltman, Joanna Shannon, Frank Signorella, Shirley Soffer, Judi
Vitale, Robert Zoller, etc. Info: phone 1-212-255-3236.

17 - 19 January 1997 - Australis '97 Congress: "An ancient art in the modern
world", St Mark's College, Adelaide, South Australia, with Adrienne Barkla,
Bernadette Brady, Julia Fox, Anne Fryer, Mari Garcia, Demetra George, Ariel
Guttman, Darrelyn Gunzburg, Robert Hand, Stephanie Johnson, Eila Laurikainen,
J. Lee Lehman, Martin Lewicki, Michelle Lewis, Joy Usher, Robert Zoller, etc.
Info: Phone 61-8-327-0297, Fax 61-8-287-2029, Email:
tparkin@adelaide.dialix.oz.au

24 - 26 January 1997 - Astro Synthesis Summer School/Symposium celebrating the
Jupiter-Uranus conjunction, Ormond College, University of Melbourne,
Melbourne, Australia with Jeffe Anders, Verena Bachmann, Demetra George, Ariel
Guttman, Lee Lehman, Robert Zoller. Info: Phone 61-3-9419-4566, Fax
61-3-9417-1773, Email: rbcgkl@werple.net.au

1 - 2 February 1997 - Lunar Consciousness Conference with Ingrid Naiman and
Donna Van Toen, Clarion Essex Park Hotel, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Info:
phone/fax 1-416-466-2258. Email: cvantoe@ibm.net

13 - 27 February 1997 - "Envisioning Our Galactic Future/History at the
Jupiter Uranus Conjunction" in Yucatan, Mexico. First part at a retreat
center near Belize, second part at Tikal and Palenque with Marcia Starck,
Medical Astrologer and Medicine Teacher, Catherine Bean Weser, Mayan-De-coder
and Jeremiah Weser, Astrologer. Info: Phone 1-505-473-1464, 3000-Calle Quieta
Sant Fe, NM 87505, USA, Email: marcia@nm-us.campus.mci.net

14 - 16 February 1997 - Cycles & Symbols III: "The Return of Soul to the
Cosmos", organized by ISIS, San Francisco Bay Area, CA, U.S.A. with Stephen
Arroyo, Caroline Casey, Priscilla Costello, Steven Forrest, Stanislav Grof,
Karen Hamaker, Robert Hand, Charles Harvey, James Hillman, William Keepin,
Richard Tarnas, etc. Info: tel. 1-510-222-9436. fax 1-510-222-2202.

14 - 17 February 1997 - Astrology Congress Barcelona '97, Spain, (with
simultaneous translations in English & Spanish), organized by The Astrological
Association of Catalunya CYKLOS. 'Astrology week' starts February 8. Info:
phone/fax 34-3-2192920.

21 - 23 February 1997 - Parallel Interface Conference, Manchester, England,
with Dennis Elwell, Demetra George, Lee Lehman, Gary Parkinson, Shelly von
Strunkel. Info: phone 44-171-700-3746, fax 44-171-700-6479. URL:
http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/index.html

28 February - 2 March 1997 - "AQUARIAN AGE ASTROLOGY" - 2nd Annual
International Conference, Moscow, Russia, organized by Moscow Astrology
Research Center, "Russian Astrology" Journal and Euro-Asian Chapter of NCGR.
Info: Russia, Moscow, 129626, p/b 5. Email: boris@izraitel.msk.ru

8 March 1997 - Yearly congress organized by Vlaams Astrologisch Genootschap
(V.A.G.), Sijsele (near Brugge), Belgium, with Paul Dijkstra, William De
Rijcke, Christoph Schunert-Weller and Adrie van der Ven. (no translations)
Info: V.A.G., Belgielei 149 box 7, B-2018 Antwerp, Belgium. Phone
32-3230-7511.

13 - 16 March 1997 - NCGR Conference "Astrology, A Revolutionary Experience",
Park Ridge Hotel, Valley Forge, PA, U.S.A. with Ida Cullen, Edith Custer,
Ralph and Lonnie Deamicis, Alison Diamond, Mary Downing, Rob Hand, Madalyn
Hillis, Helen Huber, Warren Kinsman, Alphee Lavoie, Lee Lehman, John
Marchesella, Sophia Mason, AdZe MiXXe, Fran McEvoy, Joan Negus, Ken Negus,
Arlene Marcia Nimark, Amanda Owen, Robert Schmidt, Cheryl Faye Schwartz, Jacob
Schwartz, William Trivett, Linda Waters, Lorraine Welsh. Info: phone
1-718-377-0482, fax 1-718-252-4306, email arlenemn@ix.netcom.com

14 - 17 March 1997 - Vedic Astrology in Paradise, Keauhou Beach Hotel, Kona,
Hawaii, U.S.A., organized by the American Council of Vedic Astrology, with
Christina Collins, Dennis Flaherty, David Frawley, Dennis M. Harness, Ph.D.,
Edith Hathaway, Linda Johnsen, James Kelleher, William R. Levacy, Chakrapani
Ullal. Info: phone 800-900-6595 or 1-206-5252229.

20 March 1997 - World Astrology Day begins with Aries Ingress at 13:55 GMT.

22 - 23 March 1997 - Journees de l'ARRC Conference about Uranus, Paris,
France. Info: CEDRA, 7, Place des Terreaux, 69001 Lyon, France. Phone
33-47823-7276, Fax 33-47808-2033.








28 - 31 March 1997 - Astro 2000 conference: "Hope and Healing for the New
Millennium", Denver Renaissance Hotel, Denver, CO, USA, with Christian Borup,
Steven Forrest, Jeffrey Green, Jeff Jawer, Michael Lutin, Tad Mann, Ingrid
Naiman, Alan Oken, Philip Sedgwick, Erin Sullivan, Noel Tyl. Info: phone
1-303-722-5145, fax 1-303-417-9432, Email: karenh22@aol.com

4 - 6 April 1997 - Yearly congress in Soesterberg, The Netherlands. Info:
Phone 31-75-6401230, Fax 31-75-6401075, Email: alva-soft@astronet.idn.nl

11 - 13 April 1997 - Astro-Rama in Hudson, Ohio, USA. Info: Phone
1-216-526-8547.

16 - 28 April 1997 - Travelling Symposium: "Revisiting the sacred sanctuaries
of healing and divination of Ancient Greece" with Brian Clark (Australia),
Demetra George (USA) and Melanie Reinhart (UK). Info: Phone/Fax
1-541-563-2817, Phone/Fax 44-171-435-0987, or Phone 61-3-9419-4566, Fax
61-3-9417-1773, Email: rbcgkl@werple.net.au

25 - 27 April 1997 - 21st Annual Conference organized by the Irish
Astrological Association, Dublin, Ireland, with Fr. Laurence J Cassidy,
Courtney Conrad, Peter Berresford Ellis, Karen Hamaker-Zondag, Robin Heath,
Johan and Louisa Hjelmborg, Maurice McCann, etc. Info: phone 353-1-2989755,
fax 353-1-4906108.

16 - 18 May 1997 - 5th Annual Astrology and Stock Market Conference, Hotel
Intercontinental, New York City, U.S.A., sponsored by the Astrologers Fund
"Always a Stellar Performance", 350 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY 10016-0909,
U.S.A. Tentative Speakers include: Paul Guercio, Dr. George Hart, Dr. Theodore
Landscheidt, Richard Mogey, Joan Quiqley and Henry Weingarten. Info: Phone
1-212-949-7275, Fax 1-212-949-7274, Email: AFund@aol.com URL:
http://www.afund.com

18 - 21 May 1997 - Third International Astrological Conference in Russia
"Pyramid of Knowledge: Ancient Tradition and Modern Approach", followed by
Post-Conference International Astrological Summer School, organized by The
League of Independent Astrologers. Info: tel/fax 7-095-392-7606.

20 - 26 May 1997 - The Aquarian Revelation Conference '97: "Soul, between
science and spirit", Michigan State University, McDonel Hall, MI, U.S.A. with
Jeffe Anders & Verena Bachman (Switzerland), Farida Asadullina (Russia),
William Bento, Robert P. Blaschke, Greg Bogart, David Bratcher, Stefan Brink,
Brenda Brush, Moira Caines (Canada), Philip Chase, James Coleman, Priscilla
Costello (Canada), Susie Cox, Bob Craft, Marguerite Dar Boggia, Edyne Decker,
Laura des Jardins, Monica Dimino, Zipporah Dobyns, Dennis Fairchild, Dennis
Flaherty, Demetra George, Tiziana Ghirardini (Italy), John H. Goode, Artemis
Gross, Dennis Harness, Cynthia Hart, Edith Hathaway, Lynda Hill (Australia),
Joyce Hoen (The Netherlands), Lillian Huber, Kelley Hunter (Virgin Islands),
Jeff & Danick Jawer, Martha Lang-Wescott, Rick Levine, Glennys Lawton
(Australia), Sol Lewis, Darri Low, Michael Lutin, Brian Lynch, Retha Martin,
Raymond Merriman, Roxana Muise, Robert Mulligan, Robert 'Buz' Myers, Linda
Newman, Barbara Nowak, Dale O'Brien, Alan Oken, Glenn Perry, Carole Ray, Monty
Renov, Kim Rogers-Gallagher, Millicent Rucker, Marcia Sacks, John Sandbach,
Dorothy Santangelo, Angela Sarti (Italy), Cindy Saul, Mechtheild Scheffer
(Switzerland), Barbara Schermer, Gloria Star, Marcia Starck, Camille Superson,
Erin Sullivan (England), Carol Tebbs, Robert Thibodeau, Angel Thompson, Mark
Urban-Lurain, Howard Weingarden, Claude Weiss (Switzerland), Karma Welch,
Robert Zoller. Info: phone 1-419-353-5506 or 800-982-1788, fax 1-810-394-1477.


23 - 25 May 1997 - N.O.R.W.A.C., SeaTac Red Lion Hotel, Seattle, WA, U.S.A.,
with Sheila Belanger, Anne Black, Christian Borup, Ronnie Dreyer, Gail
Fairfield, Jodie Forrest, Steven Forrest, Laura N. Gerking, Jeffrey Green, Rob
Hand, Gretchen Lawlor, Gary Lorentzen, Margaret Nalbandian, David Pond, Lucy
Pond, Kim Rogers-Gallagher, Philip Sedgwick, Sandra Leigh Serio, Diana Stone,
Anne Toth, Noel Tyl, Topaz Weiss, Joanne Wickenburg. Info: phone
1-206-706-0658, email: astroetl@wolfe.net

30 May 1997 - First International Meeting of Data Researchers, Brussels,
Belgium, with Michael Mandl, Jany Bessiere, Luc de Marre from Belgium, Frank
Clifford from England, Didier Geslain, Patrice Petitallot and Daisy VandeVin
from France, Hans Hinrich Taeger from Ireland, Grazia Bordoni from Italy,
Selma Schepel from The Netherlands, Lois Rodden and Mark McDonough from the
U.S.A., etc. Info: Michael Mand, fax 00-322-7710088.

1 June 1997 - "Astrology in Cyberspace" Congress, Astrological Trade Fair and
Astrological Art Exhibition, organized by ASTRONET, Arnhem, The Netherlands,
with Joyce Hoen, Lea Manders, Selma Schepel, Luise Vandemeer, Theo Visser and
Robert de Vos. Info: congres@astronet.idn.nl

13 - 17 June 1997 - 50-year Deutscher Astrologen-Verband e.V. (D.A.V.)
International Congress "Astrologie - die ganzheitliche Psychologie der
Zukunft", Heidelberg, Germany, with Verena Bachmann, Andre Barbault, Dr Baldur
Ebertin, Prof. Dr Suitbert Ertel, Liz Greene, Karen Hamaker-Zondag, Charles
Harvey, Suzanne Lilley-Harvey, Dr Hermann Meyer, Lois Rodden, etc. Info:
phone/fax 49-6227-890377.

15 - 22 June 1997 - Project Hindsight's 4th PHASE Conclave, Ithaca, N.Y.,
U.S.A. Info: phone 1-304-258-5873. Email: 102520.2353@CompuServe.com

18 - 20 July 1997 - 11th Biennial Cosmobiology & Astrology Convention, The
Regal McCormick Ranch, Scottsdale, Arizona, USA. Pre-convention workshops
July 17. Info: Cosmobiology Research Foundation, Inc., P.O.Box 1844,
Englewood, CO 80150-1844, USA. Phone 1-719-485-3666 or 1-520-636-4550.

5 - 9 September 1997 - Astrological Association of Great Britain's Yearly
Conference, Royal Agricultural College, Cirencester, England, with Robert
Hand, Lindsay Radermacher, Barbara Schermer, Robert Schmidt, Erin Sullivan,
etc. Info: tel. 44-171-700-0639, fax 44-171-700-6479. URL:
http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/index.html

2 - 7 October 1997 - Fifth International Vedic Astrology Symposium, Del Mar
Hilton Hotel, North San Diego, CA, U.S.A. Info: phone 1-602-282-6595.

18 - 19 October 1997 - Tenth Annual World Conference of Astro Economics,
Chicago, Illinois, USA. Info: Grace K. Morris, 1415 W. 22nd St. Tower Floor,
Oak Brook, IL 60521, USA. Email: astro@netwave.net

24 - 26 October 1997 - Copenhagen Astrology Congress organized by Ekliptika,
Copenhagen, Denmark with lectures on horary, mundane,financial, psychological,
spiritual astrology and speakers from The Netherlands, Scandinavia,
Switzerland, UK and USA. Info: phone 45-31-674010.

13 - 15 March 1998: 2nd International Astrology Congress: "Neptune in
Aquarius: Re-Dreaming the Spirit in Astrology" organized by OIBIBIO in
Amsterdam, The Netherlands, with Tatiana Antonian (Russia), Jan Bartelsman,
Jan de Graaf, Lydia Grevelink, Karen Hamaker-Zondag, Charles Harvey (England),
Jeff & Danick Jawer (U.S.A.), Joost Knegt, Suzanne Lilley-Harvey (England),
Raymond Merriman (U.S.A.),Ingrid Naiman (U.S.A.), Alan Oken (U.S.A.), Hans
Taeger (Ireland), Mellie Uyldert, etc. etc. Info: Email:
joyce.hoen@astronet.idn.nl

15 - 17 May 1998 - 6th Annual Astrology and Stock Market Conference, Hotel
Intercontinental, New York City, U.S.A., sponsored by the Astrologers Fund.
Info: Phone 1-212-949-7275, Fax 1-212-949-7274, Email: AFund@aol.com URL:
http://www.afund.com

21 - 26 May 1998 U.A.C.'98 at the Hyatt Regency Hotel, Atlanta, Georgia, USA.
Post-conference workshops on May 27, 1998. Info: Email: uac@ilinks.net URL:
http://www.stars.org/uac/

2 - 3 June 2000 - 3rd International Astrology Congress "Astrology as global
inspiration" organized by OIBIBIO, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. Info: Email:
joyce.hoen@astronet.idn.nl

=================================================================
Please send me all details
re international congress programs
as soon as the dates are known
to avoid double bookings
(names of speakers can be added later)

tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl
=================================================================

--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---


Thread: The Spirit of the Times
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 01:44:12 -0800

Hi All,

This was originally sent to the Traditions List a few months ago, and to the
CHAOS List on October 8...

>I haven't had time to look at the significant charts for the elections in
>detail lately, so that will come later. However, I always look at the big
>picture first. If it is freezing and the ground is covered with a foot of
>snow, there is no way, no matter what the astrological aspects for the day,
>that petunias are going to grow in the ground. The larger picture is always
>the background, the theme of the age, the weltanschauung, the sign of the
>times, whatever one wants to call it, which must first be factored in to
>whatever astrological work we are doing.
>For instance, with Pluto transiting through Scorpio, the person coming for
>counseling because s/he is in the midst of a sexual recession, needs to be
>viewed in the context of the overall cultural pattern, instead of as just
>one individual with personal issues. Each person will respond to the major
>astrological events personally, but still it is important to take into
>account what those are.
>
>Now, to those who use the SZ, the timing will be different on planetary
>ingresses into signs, and they will have to establish their own patterns on
>timing. They are, for instance, still mired in Pluto in Scorpio...the sexual
>recession (among other issues) still rages on for them, while Pluto in
>Sagittarius has flung the TZers into the Values War. Maybe we need to take
>into account which zodiac our clients are functioning under? :)
>
>The horaries, the individual charts, the nomination charts, the spouse's
>charts, the announcement charts, are all subsumed to the big picture. For
>instance, last time we had a presidential election, with all the signs of
>change in the sky there was just no way for George Bush to be elected. I
>have, however, learned never to say never, because human beings have such a
>way of clinging to the status quo. Nevertheless, I couldn't see how, at such
>a time of cosmic (literally) change being augered, Bush could keep up with
>the pace. Sure enough, he didn't. But then again, I couldn't see how anyone
>could elect Reagan, Bush, Nixon, etc...so perhaps I'm not a good one to look
>to. However, my reasoning on those men was not astrological - just from my
gut.
>
>Astrologically, the timing was right on for Ronald Reagan. He wanted to come
>into office with Neptune in Capricorn. This fitted quite nicely with past
>historical periods when Neptune has been in Capricorn, and we (the
>collective, human "we" ) elected such venerable leaders as "Michael the
>Drunkard," and built such stable structures as the Leaning Tower of Pisa,
>and signed such contracts as the "Eternal Peace." Clearly we were headed
>into La La land again, and Ronnie Reagan was just the one on whom to project
>our waffled fantastical constructs. Off we hurtled into the land of
>financial and social irresponsibility - pretending the coffers were forever
>full, and that the poor or disadvantaged could pick up the trickles which
>spilled over the top of the bags as the powerful ran away with all the loot.
>
>So...what does all this mean for today? Is Dole the man of the hour? Is
>Libby Dole the woman for the moment? I don't know about all of you, but I
>watched parts of the Republican Convention with my stomach and heart in
>knots. I couldn't even watch much of it. This is politics? Studies have
>shown that if politicians weren't politicians, they might be actors. And
>that was the feeling I had, watching them. This was so orchestrated. I felt
>like a "member of the populace" with some sort of sticker plastered to my
>head saying "I am truly dumb, and anything you say to me I will swallow."
>Who are the people who don't see through the machinations and dishonesty of
>these people? It is all so staged. The attitude of the speakers, one after
>the other, so condescending, as though they were trying to convince idiots
>of whatever they wanted them to believe, and didn't really expect to have a
>very hard time doing so. Are there so many of us out there who are so eaily
>lead, for whatever reason? Is it really true that our leaders, rather than
>representing the best in us, tend to represent the worst of our greed and
>prejudices? That we elect these (mainly) men to carry out a mission which
>comes not from our highest selves, but from our lowest? "Keep out the
>'aliens', "don't support (statutorily-raped) young single mothers, and take
>their babies away from them", "keep the minimum wage below the poverty
>level", etc.
>
>Whichever charts we use for Dole, he heads right into the T. Neptune
>opposite his Sun and Mercury at the time the new president of the US will be
>taking office. What's the sacrifice to be made? I think he has probably made
>it already. I think that Dole, in giving up office already, has left himself
>afloat, and that Neptune opposite his late Cancer planets next year will
>signify a withdrawal of some kind. My best intuition, because I don't think
>astrology spells out the details, although I am aware that there are now
>many who do, - my best intuition is that this man, whose whole life has
>centered around such an active career for so long, is likely to find himself
>afloat, without moorings - with no presidency, and no important political
>office.
>
>Another scenario is that he may be exhausted from the campaign (or life in
>general) and have serious health problems which make him unable to be an
>active or effective president. If he were to be elected, I think we would
>be off and running with another la la president. The transiting Neptune
>signifies enormous inner change for this man, and not effective impact on
>the outside world. His judgement is not likely to be at its best ( for what
>that's worth), and his effectiveness is likely to be weakened. Neptune
>represents times in one's life when the life force seems to be being sucked
>out of one, when the only energy which is effective is a selflessness, an
>inner spiritual beingness. I don't know that this describes Dole, unless he
>undergoes a metamorphosis, which he may indeed do in the long run. If the
>00:10 birth time is correct, then Neptune has already passed the tenth
>pivot, and is now ensconsed in the 10th house. Already we see him "giving
>up" the office he safely held. We see the Neptunian dissolution of his
>authority in his new garb - casual clothing designed to show he is outside
>the beltway, not one of the Capricornian authorities. But it is a
>Neptune-in-Capricorn sham - one with which he may have fooled himself and
>made him his own Neptunian victim.
>
>Naomi suggested a heart attack. Maybe...I don't feel comfortable predicting
>specific physical responses to transits. I think things turn physical when
>we're overwhelmed psychologically. However, Neptune is more like Alzheimer's
>( viz Reagan), or a stroke (Uranus involved with his Mars as well) which
>might leave him incapacitated - Neptune.
>
>This all reminds me a great deal of the situation recently in Australia with
>Paul Keating. Keating was going through similar astrological events, and was
>not reelected. However, Keating was, earlier in his life, involved with
>music heavily, and is a much more compassionate man than Dole - concerned
>with social programmes, etc., so I think he will ultimately deal with
>Neptune much better than Dole. I don't think "compassion", "sacrifice", or
>"spirituality" are particular Dole-ian words - although Dole may be coming
>into the period of his life when they could be evoked in his soul.
>
>Elizabeth Dole I will say more about, maybe, when we get her chart data. But
>this is not the sweet little wife - this is the politician's wife. She has
>no children (I think?), has devoted her whole life to her work, and her
>support of her husband is a study in political expediency. Probably she'd be
>a more fit president than her husband...but she has that slight impediment
>to high political office which still exists in our culture - she's a woman.
>But I think anyone who sees her as less ambitious than Hillary Clinton is in
>denial.
>
>Well...I didn't mean to go on so long, and I haven't even touched on
>Clinton's chart, or the "Weltanschauung" to which I referred at the
>beginning...but I think I had better stop as this is so long. I'm not even
>sure this is appropriate for this list...
>
>Julienne
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>"It is a little truth I carry, and if I hold not its mouth, it screameth too
>loudly!"
>
>Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>




Thread: Amazing coincidences // the hands
From: gpena@sauce.cmact.com (DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:13:02 -0800


On Monday, November 04, 1996, Linda Reid wrote here in Lilly's List:


>On 30th October 1996, I read the newspaper report on a missing local youth.
>The report was "crying out" for a horary answer in the way it set out
>details. Part of hte information given was that WB had the thumb and middle
>finger of his left hand missing. He has received a payout of $40,000 for an
>accident and had bought a car and was not seen since May this year.
>Subsequently his car turned up in Queensland - a very long way from
>Tasmania, when another man attempted to sell it. There were questions about
>how the man came to have the car and police were investigating WB's
>disappearance and possible murder. I asked the question "Is WB Dead?" at
>2.30 pm October 30 1996 40S59 145E41 Daylight savings time eastern
>Australia - 11 hours.
>
>I then sent the information to a friend in South Australia who took the
>chart to a group meeting the following night. One of the members reported
>that a baby had been born in Adelaide at 2.40 pm South Australian Time
>(Daylight saving time) - 10.30hours 34S55 138E35 and the baby had fingers
>missing on his left hand as well as big toe on his left foot.
>
>This is the kind of thing that excites me - I don't know about anyone else!
>Does anyone have information on what in the chart might indicate missing
>digits on the hand or foot? I know Lilly has some amazingly accurate
>descriptions but I haven't found this one.
>
>Anne E. - I'll fax the report for the newsletter later today.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>
>Linda Reid
>at the bottom end of the world
____________________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________________
__________________________

...and this posting by Linda made me think that transiting Mars square
transiting Pluto just partiled exactly in the degrees of the hand. Some
weeks ago, there was this discussion on the numbers that naturally correlate
with Geminis, and I quoted a couple of statements on that and then commented
some observations that are relevant to this thread:


>In article John Somoza <HORARYREV@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>>Hi Phyllis,
>>With Gemini things are always in two or four or six, etc. Not odd numbers.
>
>
>Hi John,
>Now you've picqued my curiosity...tell me why never odd numbers!
>Jillian
>Dowtown Hobart
>

John:
I am sorry to disagree on this: I have consistently seen that when the Cusp
3 of siblings is in Gemini, and thus Mercury rules siblings, there are
usually three siblings or else five siblings, unless the functional Almuten
of that house decrees otherwise. When Cusp 5 of children is in Gemini I
expect the person will have either three or five children. Gemini is the
third sign and that in itself makes number three a strong number in Gemini.
The hands are at 5 degrees Gemini and 5 degrees Virgo and at 25 degrees
Gemini or 25 degrees Virgo. Number 5 is important in the hands, because the
number of fingers. In several well documented cases I have been able to
guess that a person was missing a finger because I saw a functional malefic
badly afflicted in either the first 5 or the last 5 degrees of either Gemini
and Virgo. The South Node of the Moon too, if afflicted in either of those 5
initial or 5 final degrees of Gemini and Virgo, if afflicted, invariably
correlates with getting a finger cut off, when a progression and a transit
converge to activate the natal circuit. Experience of many years has tought
me that in Gemini the strong numbers are either 3 or 5. I test these things
every day with my clients and I have found it to be so. We know, John, that
male signs rule odd numbers, while female planets rule even numbers. As
Mercury is neither male nor female it rules both odd numbers (like 3 or 5 in
Gemini) and even numbers (like 6, for Virgo is the 6th sign and it's Mercury's).
<snip>
Best Regards
Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez
Astrologer

____________________________________________________________


To this reply of mine then there followed several testimonies endorsing my
observations about the numbers of the hands and fingers, of which the most
dramatic one was written by an astrologer named Vivian and which I now quote
here in toto:


>Hello Listers
>
>Here is a curiosity, evidently to me but not to Dr. Gonzalo, which is much
>more specific than I. I have Saturn 5 degrees Virgo 8H, others values. My
>mother had a finger amputated while I was in high school and which affected
>our only household income greatly. I married a man who's father had lost
>alll four finger on one hand through two seperate farming accidents, and I
> told that story of my having to finally dispose of them, and the last was my
>daughter had a finger cut off when she was a senior in high school. This was
>the only time I began to fall apart as a mother after all the normal
>emergency room visits. We retreived the finger, forgot it in ice at home, my
>husband followed with the finger and they could not reattatch becouse it was
>to smashed.
>
>This is what I learnt, for the first time I looked at a doctor and told him
>what I wanted done instead of just handing our bodies over to someone else as
>if they had all the answers. I was conscious how difficult it is for people
>to reach out to others with their hands once they are injured. The doctor
>said he would have to amputate and I went into hysterics, I never do this. I
>said I wanted that finger left as long as possible. Although the absence of
>his digits did not slow my father-in-law down, he fell off a silo to his
>death and they found a piece of roofing in his stubby little hand. What I did
>not know, the doctor on call (it was the weekend, and they needed a surgeon),
>had lost his little finger in a farming accident when he was a little boy and
>that was his motivation for becoming a doctor instead of a farmer. Also he
>had just sent an exchange student who had lived with them for a year, back to
>France and her name was the same as my Nichol. His "speciality was fingers",
>and he did an unusual operation tht can only be done on children and sewed
>her finger to the pamn of her hand and built a new end. The nail grew back
>though a little different and the finger is only about a fouth of an inch
>shorter. Of course, this is her ring finger, and when I see that picture of
>those beautiful hands in the wedding album, You know the one, laying on a
>satin pillow, I always get tears in my eyes, even now.
>
>Now with my grandchildren, I get paranoid whenever those little finger reach
>out, but there is this echo in my mind that says don't stop them or you will
>teach them fear of reaching out. They will be safe. But I watch closely
>ready myself to reach out if they go to far.
>
>Happy
>Vivian
______________________________________________________________________

In turn, to this posting I replied as follows:


>Here is a curiosity, evidently to me but not to Dr. Gonzalo, which is much
>more specific than I. I have Saturn 5 degrees Virgo 8H, others values. My
>mother had a finger amputated while I was in high school and which affected
>our only household income greatly. I married a man who's father had lost
>alll four finger on one hand through two seperate farming accidents, and I
> told that story of my having to finally dispose of them, and the last was my
>daughter had a finger cut off when she was a senior in high school. This was
>the only time I began to fall apart as a mother after all the normal
>emergency room visits. We retreived the finger, forgot it in ice at home, my
>husband followed with the finger and they could not reattatch becouse it was
>to smashed.
>
etc...etc....


Vivian:

Thank you very much for sharing all your stories having to do with missing
fingers in your family in the context of your chart showing a malefic,
namely Saturn, at 5 degrees Virgo. When I say that the hands are at 5 or 25
degrees Gemini or Virgo, it is not that I am repeating something that I read
somewhere, rather I am sharing what I have found from experience. I have
full documentation of 7,000 charts that I have rectified and analyzed
through my more than 20 years as a practicing astrologer. For ALL of these
cases I have the number of children and the number of siblings explained in
terms of the Almuten and the Ruler of the respective House Cusp. Experience
has tought me that the strong numbers in Gemini are 3 and 5. Numbers 3 and
5 are male numbers, because they are odd and all odd numbers are male, like
all even numbers are female. Mercury is neither male noe female, and you
would expect it's signs to have both odd and even numbers ruling there. I
have found number six consistently associated with Virgo, the 6th sign,
ruled by Mercury too. But in Gemini I heve to say that I have never seen an
even number, always 3 or 5. Here we have to recall that Mercury's Nodes are
always in tight conjunction to Mars Nodes, and maybe that is one reason why
Mercury is definitively chauvinistic, favouring the male gender. There is
an orb of only one degree and a few minutes separating Mercury's North Node
from Mars North Node, in the middle of Taurus.

Recently I had an appointed initial reading with a lady I hadn't met
before. Of course I always start an initial session with full rectification
of the Ascendant, which takes at least three or four hours to do. I casted
the maps for this lady and we say to look at them...First thing I saw was
the True south Node of the Moon at 4 degrees Virgo, plus some minutes,
sitting in her House 7 of marriage and at the midpoint of a Sun/Mars square
when Sun was ruling Cusp 7 in Leo. My first statement then was "Does your
husband lack the fourth finger in his right hand ?". She was breathless for
a second as she confessed that indeed her husband was a mechanical engineer
and he'd lost his index finger (the 4th one counting from the little finger)
with a lathe machine when he was a student, years before she met him. I
thought this was interesting in a different context: imagine that this lady
came to see the astrologer before she met her husband.....I would have taken
a one minute look at her chart and would have said to her that she was
destined to get married to a man who missed a finger in his right hand. I
would have been right. But she came to see me after she'd married her
husband and had grown up kids, still I was able to take a one minute look at
her chart and guess that her husband had lost a finger in his right hand
(Mars and the Sun, or Saturn, rule the right, while venus or Moon or Uranus
rule the left, in genetral, and she had the midpoint of the Sun/Mars square
at 4 degrees Virgo which is the hand by square to Gemini, conjuncted the
South Node of the Moon whose key word is "abscence or lack of", in her House
7 of Marriage, so it was clear her husband lacked his 4th finger in his
right hand). Observations like this allow you to figure out the truth about
karma and predestination. If this lady's father had called me as an
astrologer, to study his daughters chart the very day she was born, I would
have seen the chart and said "this baby is predestined to marry a man
missing a finger in his right hand", and I would have been right, because
indeed this lady was born fatefully predestined to marry a man missing a
finger in his right hand.

Best Regards

Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez
astrologer
__________________________________________________________________________


And I think all this is very relevant now to Linda Reid's "Amazing
Coincidences" recent experience and her question about the numbers of the
hands...

Best Regards
Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez
Astrologer








Thread: Movement of planets and house cusps.
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 03:12:36 -0800


I think all I need to understand is, when you say the earth is moving west to
east, is that west to south to east, ie anti clockwise; or west to north to
east, ie clockwise?

Angela



Thread: Movement of planets and house cusps.
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 03:12:07 -0800

Hi Tony, thanks for your attempts at helping me to clarify this issue. I think
the problem is putting the written word into an accurate visual interpretation,
but I'm getting there. It's like Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, by the time
you've visualised the purple-headed mountains in the east; the rushing river
in the north-west; the ancient forest in the south-south west; the Tower of
Orthanc in the north, together with half a dozen other correlations - you just
end up dizzy!!

However, I eventually realised in your description, that I had to remain still
while the earth moved (!!) - I think I've got it now.

Many thanks

Angela



Thread: Sending mail to the list
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:49:56 -0800

Thanks for the explanation Carol. I am a total numbskull when it comes to
such hi-tech matters, so can quite appreciate how complex it is to sort out
everything to suit all the different 'machinery'. I can only reply using the
reply button, whatever the blurb at the end of each message says, if I
actually type in the address using an underscore, it just comes back to me;
I can only use the numerical equivalent of compuserve addresses if I wish to
send a new note. If I don't have the numerical equivalent then I can either
use a posting originally from said address and press the reply button, or
I just don't get to send it at all!!

Thanks again,

Angela



Thread: Sending mail to the list
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 00:41:45 -0800

Hi Carol, I don't have any interpretations for the glossary, but I do have a
request for a certain word to be included if at all possible, that word
being: NOTWITHSTANDING, as used by Lilly in his explanation regarding
void of course Moon (I can't give you the page ref at the moment, but will
do if you need it). I had given the word the same interpretation as today,
viz 'nevertheless', 'regardless', 'in spite of'; but there does appear to be
some contention to that, to the effect that Lilly interpreted it differently.
I would be interested to know what interpretation it is generally viewed as
being how Lilly meant it.

Thanks

Angela



Thread: E-mail abreviations
From: jcremers@lava.noord.bart.nl (J.J.M. Cremers) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:14:02 -0800

Forwarded message:
From: Self <Single-user mode>
To: ENTRTAINR@aol.com
Subject: Re: E-mail abreviations
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:23:03

> << BTW is by the way
> OTOH on the other hand >>
>
> Are there others?

IMO in my opinion
IMHO in my humble opinion
IMNSHO in my not so humble opinion
FWIW for what it's worth
TTBOMK to the best of my knowledge
AFAIK as far as I know
RTFM read the fine manual
TTYL talk to you later
CU see you

Jean, (sun pisces, asc libra, moon virgo)
Greetings from Groningen, Netherlands
J.J.M. Cremers, jcremers@noord.bart.nl
---
Home of PlanetDance: http://www.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/astrolgy/pd21eng.zip



Thread: Sending mail to the list
From: ENTRTAINR@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 08:40:13 -0800

In a message dated 96-11-05 02:55:50 EST, you write:

<< Also, if you have words for the Glossary, Please send them in, time is
getting very short here. Charts and writeups also need to be in here if you
want them published. I'm looking forward to hearing from some of you, NOW.
>>


Hi Carol,

I am very new to the list, and don't know what you are referring to. Would
you please explain for me?

Thank you,

Trudy


X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: @LILLY.PML, "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>
Subject: Re: sending mail to the list
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:36:21 +8

Dear Angela,
If you will look at the addressing below you will see that by your
hitting reply (I am assuming this) that your mail package is allowing
you to send to the whole list. Also you will see that you are
addressing with an underscore and it is going through the mail system
perfectly fine. Your mail package obviously allows for this to
happen but there are others that do not automatically do this. We
have over 300 people on this mail list and I find it hard to believe
that only 10 or 15 are actively participating! Unfortunately there
is no way of telling everyone how to use their individual mailing
programs. I am only familiar with the Exchange program in Windows 95
and Eudora, there are so many other smaller ones that the servers
give people when they sign up with them. Eventually we will get this
problem solved.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
Love & Light
Carol
> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 04:05:14 EST
> From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Subject: sending mail to the list

> Hi Carol, now I understand why everyone was 'going private'. Like
> Tony, I thought that in hitting the reply button the reply went
> to the list as a whole. Is there any way of doing that? I
> wondered why there wasn't more come back on chart
> interpretations, I knew there were various points which people
> would take issue with and was interested to see how any given
> discussion developed, that now explains why things didn't
> develop, because the replies were only going to the originator.
>
>
> I cannot use the list address because of the underscore, unless you
> know of the numerical equivalent; is there no way of setting
> up the list so that when any person replies, it goes to the
> list for everyone to read?
>
> At least it's consoling to know that people weren't purposefully
> responding privately.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Angela
>
>
>

X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: @LILLY.PML, ENTRTAINR@aol.com
Subject: Re: sending mail to the list
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 13:23:53 +8

Dear Trudy,
I'm sorry I didn't explain fully. I am getting ready to put together
the magazine on horary called The Horary Practitioner. This will be
our 21st edition, due out in January 97. Our magazine is devoted
entirely to traditional horary, electional and natal astrology.

At the same time we are also producing a
glossary of words and meanings from the William Lilly time period and
have asked everyone to contribute to this list, making it as complete
as possible. Anyone who contributes will have their name in the
front of the book as a contributor when the book is published. At
the website you will find more information on our publications. I
hope this helps. If you have other questions please let me know.
Love & Light
Carol

> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:38:07 -0500
> From: ENTRTAINR@aol.com
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Subject: Re: sending mail to the list

> In a message dated 96-11-05 02:55:50 EST, you write:
>
> << Also, if you have words for the Glossary, Please send them in,
> time is getting very short here. Charts and writeups also need to
> be in here if you want them published. I'm looking forward to
> hearing from some of you, NOW. >>
>
>
> Hi Carol,
>
> I am very new to the list, and don't know what you are referring to.
> Would you please explain for me?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Trudy
>

Thread: Sending mail to the list
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 01:05:20 -0800

Hi Carol, now I understand why everyone was 'going private'. Like Tony, I
thought that in hitting the reply button the reply went to the list as a
whole. Is there any way of doing that? I wondered why there wasn't more
come back on chart interpretations, I knew there were various points which
people would take issue with and was interested to see how any given
discussion developed, that now explains why things didn't develop, because
the replies were only going to the originator.

I cannot use the list address because of the underscore, unless you know
of the numerical equivalent; is there no way of setting up the list so
that when any person replies, it goes to the list for everyone to read?

At least it's consoling to know that people weren't purposefully responding
privately.

Regards

Angela



Thread: The US Presidential Elections
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 20:41:31 -0800

Dear Tony and all Horary Artists,

I was also wondering at Angelas post whether everybody was off writing to
each other without sharing with the list. Which is actualy okay with me too,
because some of us are just shy, and may not want to expose oneself to
everybody's critical eye. So when I would receive a reply just from a single
party without it appearing on the list I just thought that the party wanted
it to be private. Thanks for pointing out that one might just not think to
add the william_lilly@halcyon. My mail program is euradora, and in order to
post to the list when some one replies, they must also place
william_lilly@halcyon in the place that says Cc.

What a great and timely idea, and interesting chart you present. Thank you
for sharing it with us. On the eve of this presidencial election I also
would like to share an election outcome chart with the list.

I have been having a wonderful correspondence with Mr. John Kalus. He is the
person who aske why Lilly called his masterpiece, "Christian Astrology".
Some of you might recognize him from the magazine, " the Mercury Hr". He
asked me why it was that people had trouble predicting elections with
horary. I said that I thought that it might be because it is difficult to
answer questions when one has no real deep seated feeling about the outcome,
but as a lark I also decided to ask will Bill Clinton be re-elected?
6/18/1996 11:09am PDT 123w41,38n55.

As with your chart there were two warnings both early degrees and a void
of course moon, and that led me to beleive that the so called strictures
were because I really didnt give a damn about the outcome.. Here's what I
wrote in june; please pardon my lack of references, I was just winging it!
Early degrees it's too soon to say. The moon is void as she only gets 6
degrees of moeity and that is not quite enough to make an aspect to her
closet planet uranus, who is given no moeity at this time( from a
traditional perspective). I said I suppose if I was a lobbiest and had some
bucks riding on this election I might get a chart without warnings. I used
Bill Clinton as the 1st house instead of the ruler of the presidential 10th
house, because I asked," Will Bill Clinton win the election" and not," would
the president be re-elected". Further, I have no relationship with Clinton
and have no interest in the outcome of the election.

With 2 Virgo rising I took Mercury as ruler in mercury's own sign of gemini
to represent him. Mercury rules him, as he is a young president, and he is
known for being a waffler with suspect morals, seems to fit Bill so far.
Mercury is essentially dignified by rulership in Gemini. Mercury is
accidentally dignified as well as emplaced in the 10th house, the executive
branch, ie he is already president. Dole is represented by the ruler of the
7th house, Jupiter. Jupiter is in Capricorn. This describes Dole, I believe
because many here in the US think that Dole is a bit of a Dinosour, still
mad at those who were against Vietnam war over 20 years ago..Jupiter is only
dignified by terms. Dole is in his 11th of friends and hopes and wishes
11th. I frankly beleive if it werent for the loyalty of his friends, the
Republicans would have chosen someone with more charisma to run. Jupiter is
also retrograde and in the sign of its fall. This retrogradation might
signify that he has sought the presidency several(3) times before. Just
based on the general strength of the two planets involved I would have to go
with Clinton.

Looking at the ruler of the 5th house, "to win", Saturn, and Mercury is in
a partile sextile with Saturn. But Jupiter is emplaced in the "to win" 5th
house. So does that mean Dole wins? I think not. Looking at what the planets
are about to do we have Mercury Mr. Clinton's ruler moving away from the sun
and out of the beams, so his fears are lessening. Mercury is also passing
\away from Mars the ruler of the 9thhouse, which indicates to me that the
recent legal troubles of "whitewater" are passing away. Mercury is trine the
north node to me an indicator of the trends of the times, the tastes of the
people in a mundane situation. Jupiter(Dole) turned retrograde after this
question was asked and headed straight into a square of Saturn ruler of the
"win" 5th and stayed that way for the bulk of the campaign. This is well
described by what the press refers to as "Dole's uphill battle" for the
presidency.. At the time of this question Mr. Dole had just squared the
nodes, indicating the to me a sort of milestone in his career. He had just
quit his long time job as senator for the state of Kansas, and house
majority leader. Jupiter's square to the nodes in the 2nd and 8th also
indicated to me why he quit the senate, his campaign was severely in
financial disarray. Jupiter is also in it's fall according to allen Edwall's
Horary primer, Planets in their fall may have something to apologize for.
According to Vanity Faire Magazine, this apoplgy might go to his wife
Elizabeth who, it is said, he never consulted re: quitting his "day" job.
Mercury on the other hand will recieves no future bad aspects! And that
seems how the campaign went. Dole would sling swipes at Clinton's character
and they would just bounce off. For these reasons I also came to the
conclusion that Clinton will be re-elected.
fondly,
Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org


At 02:02 AM 11/5/96 UT, you wrote:
>I discovered this chart in my files and thought it might be of interest on the
>eve of the elections.
> Tony
>
> Will Bill Clinton Win the Presidency in 1996?
>On Monday, December 4, 1995, at 6:45 p.m. EST (a Mercury hour), 41N19, 73W01,
>I received email from Tom Bridges who had been the editor at Llewellyn of my
>1991 text on horary. Tom was now working freelance and wanted to do a
>magazine article on horary astrology's ability to predict the outcome of a
>national election. His idea was to ask several horary astrologers nationwide
>the same question: "Will Bill Clinton be re-elected to the presidency in
>1996?"



Thread: Movement of planets and house cusps.
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 20:08:36 -0800

Angela,

Here's a little experiment to help you see the movement of things.

Place a horoscope on the floor with the MC facing south. Imagine you are
standing in the center of the horoscope wheel. You would then be standing on
the Ecliptic, the path that the sun follows in space. It is angled 23.5
degrees to the earth's equator. So in effect you are standing on a cross
section through the earth that is roughly parallel to the earth's equator.
The earth is turning from West to East so the sign along the ecliptic appear
to be ascending at the Ascendant.

To your left is the Ascendant in the East. To your right is the Descendant in
the West. Behind your back is the IC in the North.

>From your position facing south toward the MC if you were to hold out your
left arm, it would point toward the ASCENDANT. As you stood still and the
earth moved you, your left arm would move through all the signs in zodiac
order in the course of 24 hours. The earth would move your left arn in the
same direction that the planets are traveling around the zodiac, that is, in a
counter clockwise direction. Because your arm is moving counterclockwise as
the earth turns, the signs appear to be rising and moving clockwise around
the earth.

It's all in your point of view. Either you think the sun rises, or you think
that the sun stands still and the earth turns on its axis from west to east.


Hope that helps.

Tony


Thread: The US Presidential Elections
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 18:03:39 -0800

I discovered this chart in my files and thought it might be of interest on the
eve of the elections.
Tony

Will Bill Clinton Win the Presidency in 1996?
On Monday, December 4, 1995, at 6:45 p.m. EST (a Mercury hour), 41N19, 73W01,
I received email from Tom Bridges who had been the editor at Llewellyn of my
1991 text on horary. Tom was now working freelance and wanted to do a
magazine article on horary astrology's ability to predict the outcome of a
national election. His idea was to ask several horary astrologers nationwide
the same question: "Will Bill Clinton be re-elected to the presidency in
1996?"
I cast a chart for the time and place I understood the question. The
Ascendant at 16o Cancer is neither too early nor too late. There is no
concordance between the Ascendant ruler Moon in Taurus and the hour ruler
Mercury in Sagittarius, so the chart does not pass the traditional test for
radicality. Feeling excited and challenged by Tom's idea, I decided to
disregard this rule and read the chart nonetheless.
The Moon is separating from a sextile to Saturn and will trine both Uranus and
Neptune before leaving its sign. Because the modern planets were unknown in
the 17th century, Lilly would have regarded this Moon as Void of Course. Tom,
the querent, plays no role in the 1996 election, so the classically Void of
Course Moon made some sense.
Presidents are shown by the 10th house, here with a Pisces cusp, making
Jupiter the primary significator of President Clinton. At the time of the
question, the Republican party had not yet selected a candidate, but Dole was
a leading contender for the nomination. I assumed that the 4th house lying
directly opposite the10th (the 4th being the 7th house of rivals or open
enemies of the 10th) represented Clinton's adversary Bob Dole. Virgo is on
the 4th cusp, making Mercury (the hour ruler) the planetary significator of
Bob Dole.
Both Mercury (Dole) and Jupiter (Clinton) lie in Sagittarius in the 6th house,
and both planets are racing toward the Part of Fortune at 23o33' Sagittarius
in the 6th. I took the Part of Fortune to be the sought after Presidency.
Despite the lack of Ascendant ruler and hour ruler agreement, this placing of
the key significators suggested that I was working with a radical chart.
Jupiter at 23o 20' Sagittarius will reach the Part of Fortune (one's treasure)
before Mercury at 18o 53' can get there. Although Clinton's popularity was at
a low in December, 1994, the chart suggested that he would recapture the
Presidency in November, 1996.
To be sure of the answer, I wanted to know which planet was stronger in the
chart: Jupiter (Clinton) or Mercury (Dole)? The stronger planet should win
the election. Using Allen Edwall's program, I discovered that Mercury was in
his detriment (Sagittarius, the sign opposite Gemini which it rules), was
substantially weakened by being Combust the Sun (in the same sign and within
8.5o of the Sun), and had a total score of "-5" points in Lilly's system of
planetary strength. Jupiter, on the other hand, was mildly weakened by being
under the Sun's beams (beyond 8.5o but within 17o of the Sun) and had a total
score of "+6" in Lilly's point system. In Lilly's point system, Jupiter
(Clinton) was defeating Mercury (Dole) by an 11 point spread. I responded to
Tom by email on December 9, 1995, that Clinton would defeat Dole in 1996.
What about the classically Void of Course Moon? It turned out that Tom never
wrote the article and was never able to complete his project. I have no idea
how or whether other horary astrologers took the time to answer Tom's
question. It would have been a fascinating study of the horary art.




Thread: Amazing coincidences
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:54:43 -0800


On 30th October 1996, I read the newspaper report on a missing local youth.
The report was "crying out" for a horary answer in the way it set out
details. Part of hte information given was that WB had the thumb and middle
finger of his left hand missing. He has received a payout of $40,000 for an
accident and had bought a car and was not seen since May this year.
Subsequently his car turned up in Queensland - a very long way from
Tasmania, when another man attempted to sell it. There were questions about
how the man came to have the car and police were investigating WB's
disappearance and possible murder. I asked the question "Is WB Dead?" at
2.30 pm October 30 1996 40S59 145E41 Daylight savings time eastern
Australia - 11 hours.

I then sent the information to a friend in South Australia who took the
chart to a group meeting the following night. One of the members reported
that a baby had been born in Adelaide at 2.40 pm South Australian Time
(Daylight saving time) - 10.30hours 34S55 138E35 and the baby had fingers
missing on his left hand as well as big toe on his left foot.

This is the kind of thing that excites me - I don't know about anyone else!
Does anyone have information on what in the chart might indicate missing
digits on the hand or foot? I know Lilly has some amazingly accurate
descriptions but I haven't found this one.

Anne E. - I'll fax the report for the newsletter later today.

Best wishes,


Linda Reid
at the bottom end of the world




Thread: Traditional's solar returns
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:30:47 -0800

Hi Anne!

thank you for presenting such an interesting case. Would it be okay to aske
you to share his birth data with the list, as an example of a world
traveler? I have one question. Did you do the Solar Return readings before
or after his birthday?

fondly,
Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org

At 06:52 PM 11/2/96 PST, you wrote:
>Dear SGeorge & William_Lilly group.
>as he approached 40 he had just finished 3 years in Australia and was
returning to
>Sweden to work again, at the time of his birthday. When he got back he lost
his job,
>so he returned to a previous employer, and finally ended up with a better
position. An
>eventful year and good to test.
>I did 5 different Solar Returns using
>1. his birth coordinates,
>2. his future home in Sweden where he was returning to and where he would
spend the
>year,
>3. Adelaide where he had been for 3 years,
>4&5 and then 2 more for islands in the Pacific. He had his birthday on the
International
>date line then hopped across the line and had it again. (He's Cancer/Gemini
but you
>guesssed that!) So I had 5 charts.
>One way and another the birth, Adelaide and the Swedish chart ALL described
every
>major event that year, both good and bad. They just did it differently. The
2 charts done
>for his holiday place on his birthday both described the social and "good"
events of the
>year but not the trauma.
>Hope this helps.
>
>Anne Elliott
>Spica Publications
>
>
>
>



Thread: Questions
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:45:17 -0800

Hi Kent, with regard to which time to use, this is your chart and you were the
person asked the question, so the time used would be when you understood the
querent's dilemma. People on the list can hopefully help you with your
interpretation, but it is your chart. The other point is that with horary the
Lat/Long details are needed as well as the time and date, of the astrologer in
the matter, ie, where you were at the time of understanding the question.

Regards

Angela



Thread: When?
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:39:26 -0800


Hi Trudy, the co-ordinates you have given are presumably the querent's
natal details. Do you have the co-ordinates for when you understood the
question being asked?

Regards

Angela



Thread: E-mail abreviations
From: Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:43:19 -0800

At 11:42 PM 11/1/96 -0500, ENTRTAINR@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 96-11-01 15:47:32 EST, you write:
>
><< BTW is by the way
> OTOH on the other hand >>
>
>
>Are there others?

IMHO - in my humble opinion

ROTFL - rolling on the floor laughing

WDYT - what do you think

Linda
>
>
>
Maetrix School of Astrology
----------------------------



Thread: Traditional's solar returns
From: spica@world.net Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:03:58 -0800

Dear SGeorge & William_Lilly group.
I did a pile of Solar Returns once for a client. He was born in Austria of Swedish
parents, brought up in Ethiopia and then Sweden, worked in Sweden, then abroad, and
now as he approached 40 he had just finished 3 years in Australia and was returning to
Sweden to work again, at the time of his birthday. When he got back he lost his job,
so he returned to a previous employer, and finally ended up with a better position. An
eventful year and good to test.
I did 5 different Solar Returns using
1. his birth coordinates,
2. his future home in Sweden where he was returning to and where he would spend the
year,
3. Adelaide where he had been for 3 years,
4&5 and then 2 more for islands in the Pacific. He had his birthday on the International
date line then hopped across the line and had it again. (He's Cancer/Gemini but you
guesssed that!) So I had 5 charts.
One way and another the birth, Adelaide and the Swedish chart ALL described every
major event that year, both good and bad. They just did it differently. The 2 charts done
for his holiday place on his birthday both described the social and "good" events of the
year but not the trauma.
Hope this helps.

Anne Elliott
Spica Publications