Thread: Correction
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:06:51 -0700


The following is a correction for the summary of mailinglists I sent you a few
days ago:

"William Lilly" - born July 28, 1996 at 6:22 am PDT, 123W41 38N54,
for traditional astrology. To subscribe send Email
to: william_lilly@halcyon.com with the word:
subscribe as subject and you will receive all
details. Moderator: Carol A. Wiggers.


--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---


Thread: Luck Timing
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 03:44:26 -0700


Hi Kent, I think your story is a superb example. It indicates the possibility
of predicting such things, and also wonderfully illustrates that there is a
constructive side as well. Someone's post mentioned about greed taking over,
and this only goes to confirm it. What a pity. Maybe the main point is being
overlooked - perhaps it isn't a question of avoiding temptation, but
developing the ability to control it. Anyone can be a hero when not in the
front line. Hmmmm .... dunno, I'm just interested to see how far charts can
actually work and I think your example is brilliant!

Regards

Angela



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 03:42:46 -0700


Hi Allen,

I think you have probably interpreted this far more deeply than the original
query was intended, consequently more debatable issues are being raised, and
rather than run the risk of boring others on the list, or causing irritation
if it is seen as being other than pure astrology, I suggest we place this in
the 'pending' file, or continue purely between thee and me. I have enjoyed our
discussion tremendously, and am happy to continue privately, if you wish, as
there are many divergencies which seem to be becoming apparent. On the other
hand, we can leave it for another day if you prefer.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Luck Timing
From: "kent lambert" <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:48:07 -0700

Hi Folks,

I've been observing the discussion about using astrology for financial
gain through charting the times for buying stock, lotteries, etc. Recently
I've been interested in using astrology to buy stock. I'm unsure as to
whether it should be used.
I will relate the only experience I've had with astrology and luck. A lady
came to me to have her chart cast and read. In reading the chart I read the
transists, progressions, and directions. I do not remember exactly what was
in her 5th house natally but it was lucky. She was born lucky? She had a
long term lucky transist going. Amoung other things I gave dates and times
when things would go her way for the next year. I had no idea she was going
to go to the casino at those times. She won alot of money. She won't tell
anyone how much she had won but she drew crowds she won so much. She came
back after that year and wanted me to read the transists to her chart. I
did and saw the possibility an obsession in her life that year (Pluto).
What she wanted was the timing for gambling. I warned her of the possibiliy
her becoming addicted to gambling if she continued. She continued and
became addicted. Right now she is still at it. I'm waiting for the outcome.


Kent


Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:43:04 -0700

Hi, Angela,

>> In relation to speculating on the stock market, and using astrology in that
regard, again, I don't really follow your objection. I am not involved in such
financial arenas, admittedly, but whatever a person's work involves, how can it
be wrong, morally or otherwise, to use astrology in order to try and define good
conditions?

Can you imagine the Christ sitting around and casting charts so that He could
see when the best time was to gamble or to partake of the other so-called
"harmless" pleasures of life?

My point was basically this - in the futures or options market, if someone
writes a contract, he then tries to sell said contract to someone else, a buyer.
The person who is writing the contract sells it to this buyer and it is only
valid for a certain time length. If the price of the underlying security or
product does not go against him before expiration, then he pockets the buyer's
premium and he wins money while the buyer loses money. On the other hand, if the
price of the security or underlying product goes against the seller, then he is
liable to "cover" that security or product at the previous agreed on price, no
matter how far it goes against him. In this case, the buyer makes money and the
writer of the contract loses money. This is where the big money is in the stock
market. It's not in regular shares of common stock, but in highly leveraged
products as described above. In this transaction, then, someone has to win and
someone has to lose. Either the writer keeps the purchaser's premium or the
purchaser exercises his option and the writer must pay up, out of his own pocket
with no limit to the potential loss.

For someone to use astrology against another in this sort of transaction is not,
I contend, the highest use of our spiritual art. Is it any wonder that people
don't take astrology and astrologers seriously when they have their own
self-interests at heart? That is all I am suggesting.


Allen



Thread: Mercury's shadow
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:02:22 -0700

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi All,

I know you've not missed me but I've missed you and in a vain attempt
to catch up on all the mail I've been storing over the last week or so
I have managed to delete ALL my mail! I thought Mercury had gone
direct? Anyway, I hope you've been not been indulging in idle gossip
- - as I've missed it.

Seriously, I appologise for ignoring anyone - in case I have.

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMlAqZAfKY8CQv4epAQH3vgQAhBm7HOnmac2eDWGhx2K+NGxYyJyc6PrI
LS1TcbCrNTcO4mZSJSh34ywwRE3LXGeg0jD0+16mwwyT8ZlL2dSbmCciU1v8teUf
04jOIJQUt0ZhaH08GVt7iSdGw8Y93bEmaqUktCq5VQ5DEH7GQoMCZroZsE/LOq+4
Lk6hxUETs9g=
=lVmJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Thread: Will the cancer come back?
From: motive@juno.com (Lee Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:22:39 -0700

Hello Everyone

I am posting this question to the list with the hope that someone out
there does these types of questions. I have not gotten that far in my
own studies. I need to ask you for help with this because the lady is
very distressed and with just cause. At this point she doesn't know what
direction to go in. Your help will be greatly appreciated by all of us.
If you need further information please just ask and I will get from her.

Question was asked at this time.
Sept. 30, 1996
5:20 pm EDT
Gainesville, Florida

a)Will the cancer return?
b) Will I go back to work soon?
c)Will I be able to keep the job and pay the bills if I go back to work?

d)Am I making a bad decision by going back to work?
e)Will I be better off by staying at home and not going back to work?
f)Will George(husband) get a job soon?

The lady is worried that if she goes back to work she gives up the
medical benefits that are paying for her current medication and hospital
treatment. She has had both breasts removed because of cancer in the
past. She is worried that the cancer will come back and she will not be
able to afford the treatment, medication and may then loose the job.

Her husband had been out of work for a while, then went to work and after
a few weeks was layed off again. She is very worried and would like some
advise.

Lee
motive@juno.com


Thread: Question on house rulerships for the Lilly list
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:54:13 -0700


What a grand piece of clarification, many thanks. Waters can tend to become
a little muddy with various perceptions as to correct practise, it's good to
come across definitive statements.

Angela



Thread: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:32:07 -0700

Hi Carol,

Like Linda, I also have trouble with understanding when to use what for the
chart co-ordinates and have similarly reasoned that the time and place when
the astrologer understands the question are the ones to use, seemingly in
accordance with Lilly's rule book. It is difficult to understand when to
deviate from any apparent given ruling. Let's say the 'last time seen' wasn't
known, could you then use when the astrologer understood the query?

Another very basic point (apols if it's too basic, but purely for clear cut
understanding), please could you illustrate the difference in practise between
an event chart and horary? It is often referred to, but your response in this
case seems to draw an extremely definite dividing line between the two types
of chart, implying that to adopt horary procedures would be cataclysmic. So
please could you define exactly what one does in an event chart as against a
horary, and, once again, apols for my ignorance.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:03:53 -0700

Hi David,

Yes it is a funny old game, but it's consoling to know that even the 'greats'
had occasional hiccups!

I may be wrong, but I understood the original query to be about 'charting' the
best horses to back, and my subsequent input re the lottery. I know what you
mean about greed taking over, but really, the initial enquire was, I think,
far more innocent than the tone it has begun to acquire; and at the end of the
day, it is intriguing to stretch the parameters of any given thing, especially
the 'thing' you happen to be working with.

Is there such a thing as a 'lucky streak'? - or is it as Jeanne suggested, a
question of having an inherent sense of timing; perhaps it is more down to
studying natal charts; or maybe there is a system of influencing the dice of
the roulette wheel, or the numbers of the lottery, or the winner of the Grand
National. I don't know, but it seems feasible to follow the thought that
whatever divinatory system one uses, from tarot to horary to clairvoyance, if
there is such a thing as the 'future', whether time be linear or otherwise,
then it may be possible to tune in to such a thing. Personally, I don't think
it is, too many people have tried over too many centuries. I once decided to
try various things to help pick the winning numbers of the national lottery -
I used a computer programme; drew up a chart; used my natal chart; dealt the
tarot; tried 'automatic' writing; closed my eyes and let the pen 'pick'
the numbers; meditation - meanwhile, my partner tried dowsing with a pendulum
etc, etc, etc - we didn't win a bean - whereas my mum who just happened to be
with me when I was filling out the form, paid over her pound and chose her
numbers there and then - and won a tenner!! I gave up at that point!

Regards

Angela



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 06:22:26 -0700

Sorry Allen, each to their own, admittedly, but I think you have a very
cynical approach here. Maybe we are coming at the question from different
vantage points, I don't know; but in cases of 'trade', then presumably one
trades one energy for another, ie, money for goods, or, conversely, goods for
money, either way, one thing is traded for another, so by pure analogy of the
word, no-one is the loser. In cases of speculation, if one person wins the
lottery, for example, what are you saying? That the one person, or group of
people, who won are morally and ethically wrong because by virtue of them
winning they deprived someone else the pleasure? I don't think so. In
mundane competitions which are on the back of every cereal packet et al, and
the various national lotteries, not to mention horse racing, and any other
kind of speculative activity, of course there will be winners and losers,
that's what it's all about, but I don't think it's a question of depriving
another of something if you happen to be in the lucky seat every now and again
(or even just once!), and, to return to the original question, it is
interesting to see if astrology can be used to indicate any fortuitous streaks
in this regard. If you feel it is so wrong, presumably whenever you win a
raffle, be it church, boy scouts, or whatever, you give the prize back -
because in winning you are making the other entrants losers.

In relation to speculating on the stock market, and using astrology in that
regard, again, I don't really follow your objection. I am not involved in such
financial arenas, admittedly, but whatever a person's work involves, how can
it be wrong, morally or otherwise, to use astrology in order to try and define
good conditions? Whether it be to 'suss-out' new employees; the best time to
float a new venture; or the most advisable to invest; or the viability (or
whatever the stock market term is) of a new Company. Why do you see this as
being at someone else's expense? You're not working various spells and magics
towards someone else's downfall so you can prosper, that, I agree, is out of
order; but tuning in see the state of play or catch the tail of some passing
lucky streak, I'm sorry, but I think that is something which is good fun and
very interesting to speculate on - furthermore it is something to share so
anyone can catch hold and join in the fun.

Regards

Angela



Thread: SUBJECT
From: leegates@tiac.net (Lee Gates) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 17:11:28 -0700

subscribe


Thread: SUBJECT
From: bosse@bahnhof.se (Bosse Omhav) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:15:38 -0700

subscribe


Thread: SUBJECT
From: "Cyndie Boyer" <cboyer@cwconnect.ca> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:29:14 -0700

subscribe


Thread: Missing date
From: Tstcl@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:03:28 -0700

Greetings to all at William Lilly.
The following is the closest approximation that I have for the time that
Kristen Smart went missing from the Cal Poly campus at San Luis Obispo,
California.

May 25, 1996 1:30 am PST
Long - 120w45
Lat - 35n15

After talking with Carol, I made a chart using Regiomontanus house system.

Kristen was 6 feet 1inches tall, blonde, born at a late degree Pisces
I do not have any birth information on the suspect, Paul Flores, I only know
that he was the last person to see her, and that he is (was) a student at Cal
Poly also. The search dogs detected the scent of blood that could only have
been either menstrual or from a dead body on his matress in the dormitory. He
refuses to talk to the police.

My own deductions after looking at the above chart are:

a) she's dead
b) there were at least two other people involved in her demise.
c) they transported her body to a South Westerly location
d) she's buried, but in a container, possibly metal, and because of the
agricultural nature of the area, she may be in a grain storage container.
e) I feel the suspect's father either own's the property or is somehow aware
of the location.

I'm hearing conflicting stories about Flores not having relatives up here,
some say he is currently living with relatives in a town South West of the
campus called Arroyo Grande.

Another rumour was that Flores bragged about having dumped her body in the
Nipomo Mesa, (and he implicated another boy named Jeremy Moon) again South
West of the campus and near the town of Arroyo Grande, but even more westerly
that Arroyo. Paul and Jeremy work at a gas station/garage in Arroyo Grande.

On Friday, September 20th, they featured Kristin's story on "Unsolved
Mysteries".
I originally posed the horary question in July, while looking at Kristen
Smart's birthchart (which I've managed to lose) with a woman who was in on
the foot search.
I know there is a reward, for anyone interested in the money, you can call
Detective Henry Stewart at the San Luis Sherriff's department: (805)
781-4523.

Any support would be much appreciated. Kindest Regards, Tess.






Thread: Fwd: hello again
From: Tstcl@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:02:18 -0700


---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Fwd: hello again
Date: 96-09-26 19:25:36 EDT
From: Tstcl
To: Tony_LaB@msn.com

Tony, this wasn't forwarded, I just mis addressed it so I'm resending it.
Tess.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: hello again
Date: 96-09-26 13:46:47 EDT
From: Tstcl
To: Tony_Lab@msm.com

Hi, Tony.

I haven't heard anything since my last post to you. I hate to bother you, but
I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart on
Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last Friday. I
must say, though, I did not get involved because of a reward. I have
concluded that she is underground but in some kind of a container, and that
the suspect's father is aware of the location possibly because it's his
property, but I don't know how to determine how far away the location is.
Please e-mail me if it's okay to call you either Friday or Saturday
afternoon, your time. Kindest Regards, Tess.


Thread: Question on house rulerships for the Lilly list
From: "J. Lee Lehman (leephd@ix.netcom.com)" <leephd@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 04:38:40 -0700

Tony_ Lab wrote:
>
> I would be interested in your opinions on the following situation. An
> astrologer friend asked a horary question about her client who had recently
> become unemployed: "When will my client get a new job?"
>
> The astrologer asking the question is shown by the first house. Which house
> represents the astrologer's client who is seeking employment?

Frankly, I have problems with this question at all, because I have doubts about
whether the astrologer/Querent even has standing to ask the question. As we
dealing with a frustrated natal astrologer who hasn't learned how to predict
natally? Are we dealing with a situation where the astrologer gives a damn
enough about the client to even ask this seriously?

Now, if you believe despite my concerns that this is a valid question, we have
recently gotten a statement of the rule from Bonatti, a rule evidently used by
Lilly in his "Ship at Sea" horaries, but never explicited stated. Bonatti
stated, concerning questions on ill parties, the issue of house rulership
depends on whether the astrologer asks the question with the patient's
permission. If the answer is "yes," then BOTH the Querent/astrologer and the
patient are the 1st House. If the question was asked without the knowledge or
permission of the other party, then said party is given by the house
relationship of that person to the Querent, which in this case would be the 7th
house - a client.

Source: Liber Astronomiae Part IV on Horary. Project Hindsight Latin Track XIII:
69.



--
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction



Thread: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 07:17:22 -0700

Carol wrote:

>Dear Linda,

>I don't know what Deb's stance is on this, but I have worked with Sue
>Ward and Dorothy on these types of cases and they agree with using the last
>seen chart in the things we have done.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with this and the rest of Carol's post. This is
even the case where the last seen time is a little vague.

Linda's problem/confusion about how to treat the chart, is one of the
reasons for my being a bit of a purist when it comes to trad. astrol. -
let's get the basics right first.

To extend this to Angela's recent post about the vertex, I would say that if
any of us wishes to discuss a 'modern' technique, then this is fine. But it
has to be done in the spirit of the list which in my view is one of debate
and a comparison to the traditional method. For example, what does an
astrologer gain, if anything, by using points like the vertex that they
wouldn't get from the traditional alone?

Speaking purely from personal experience, I think that when we have to
resort to later additions, it's because we have failed to recognise the
story in the main scheme (see my and Dorothy's recent posts re. almutens
which give a similar story). And I have tried almost all of them at one time
or another, in the end I realised that if I studied the basic scheme
properly, I should be able to judge the chart. I did and I can (well, give
or take the odd blunder or two!).

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 05:29:14 -0700

Dear Linda,

I didn't know I would be seeing you on the course - I am looking forward to
meeting you.

Carol writes:

"I don't know what Deb's stance is on this, but I have worked with Sue
Ward and Dorothy on these types of cases and they agree with using the last
seen chart in the things we have done."


I haven't worked on enough charts of this nature to have a strong stance on it.
The only 'missing' charts I do are all horaries but they have all been asked by
a querent who is directly involved in the situation, so I use the time they ask,
and my location. But I think I would go along with Carol in the case of a
'missing person at large' chart, mainly because I know that she and Sue have far
more experience in this area than I do. Sue recently gave a talk and
demonstration on missing person charts worked on by herself and Carol which were
drawn from the time of a significant event (like their last appearance). It was
quite impressive. I doubt whether the event chart would be quite as revealing
as a horary asked by an immediate family member or close friend, but in the
absense of that, I would prefer to work on an event chart than a 2nd or 3rd hand
horary.

See you soon.

Deb



Thread: Question on house rulerships for the Lilly list
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:09:14 -0700
Status: U

I would be interested in your opinions on the following situation. An
astrologer friend asked a horary question about her client who had recently
become unemployed: "When will my client get a new job?"

The astrologer asking the question is shown by the first house. Which house
represents the astrologer's client who is seeking employment?

Thanks in advance,

Tony


Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:11:45 -0700
Status: U

>> The universe is incredibly bountiful, and I think there's enough prosperity
to go around without depriving anyone--unless someone's deliberately trying to
swindle someone out of something, and in honest speculation, that is not the
case.

Oh? What about they guy on the opposite side of the trade? If you win, he loses.


Allen



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:11:45 -0700
Status: U

Hi, Angela,

>> Why do you think one person's gain is another's loss?

Because for every buyer there is a seller and vice-versa. This is especially
true in options and futures where the big money hangs out. And where the big
money is, that is where you will find the high rollers and the people who will
use any advantage they can over someone else.

>> Presumably you subscribe to a view of cosmic scales, and whereas I think it
quite a feasible conception, it is by no means an open and shut case.

Truth never is, it seems. If it were, we wouldn't have so many different
factions trying to tell us what their "truth" is. But whether people know it or
not, whether they admit it or not, TRUTH does exist, sometimes in agreement with
their ideas and sometimes radically opposed to their ideas.

Hey, let's do a horary on "Is it immoral or at least unspiritual to use
astrology to make money in the stock market". Time is 10:32 pm CDT, 87W58,
42N01.

>> I would say that for me at any rate it is a question of the old adage 'Do as
you will, be it harm none.'

My contention is that it can harm someone, having traded for over 10 years now.


Allen



Thread: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
From: Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:31:42 -0700

At 04:12 PM 9/27/96 +8, Carol A. Wiggers wrote:
>Before reading this please be aware that there is a $10,000.00 reward
>on this case.
>Carol

Dear Carol - I have understood that a horary chart should be set for the
time and location that the message reaches the astrologer - which ever
astrologer - can you clarify this for me please as I note quite often charts
are provided along with the question - does the originating chart take
precedence over a foewarded question, given that it might qualify as more
spontaneous or have more desperation in it.

I'm sorry if this seems a fundamental question - I'll be doing Deborah
Houlding's course in Hervey Bay next week - it's a long time since I read
Ivy Jacobson but this seems to be where I've gotten this idea.

Regards

Linda Reid 9.28 am Saturday 27th Sept.
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 20:56:45 UT
>From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Missing Person: Kristen Smart
>
>Fellow Horary List Astrologers,
>
>I received a call from Tess St.Claire in California. She was looking
>for help with a missing person chart. A female college student,
>Kristen Smart, was kidnapped in St.Louis Obispo and has not yet been
>found. A suspect has been questioned.
>
>The woman was first reported missing on 5/25/96 about 1:30 am pst (tz
>8) (yes PST - Tess converted the time to PST).
>
>Tess asked the horary question on 7/23/96 at 8:34 pm PST (tz 8).
>
>Both charts are for 120w45 and 35n15.
>
>Both charts have the same significators for the missing person (ruled
>by the 1st). In the horary question chart, there is a late ASC and
>the Moon is via combust, perhaps signifying that the woman is dead as
>the police suspect.
>
>If you have a chance to look at these charts, I'm sure Tess would
>welcome any feedback. Her email address is TSTCL@aol.com, or you can
>post info here and I can forward it to her.
>
>
>Thanks for your help,
>
>Tony
>
>=====
>
>PS: TESS just wrote again today:
>
>" I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart
>on Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last
>Friday. I must say, though, I did not get involved because of a
>reward. I have concluded that she is underground but in some kind of
>a container, and that the suspect's father is aware of the location
>possibly because it's his property, but I don't know how to determine
>how far away the location is."
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
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>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
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>cwiggers@halcyon.com
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>
>

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" I exist" he cried to the Universe
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I need someone to look after
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@====================================@



Thread: Missing Person: Kristen Smart
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:04:43 -0700

Fellow Horary List Astrologers,

I received a call from Tess St.Claire in California. She was looking for help
with a missing person chart. A female college student, Kristen Smart, was
kidnapped in St.Louis Obispo and has not yet been found. A suspect has been
questioned.

The woman was first reported missing on 5/25/96 about 1:30 am pst (tz 8) (yes
PST - Tess converted the time to PST).

Tess asked the horary question on 7/23/96 at 8:34 pm PST (tz 8).

Both charts are for 120w45 and 35n15.

Both charts have the same significators for the missing person (ruled by the
1st). In the horary question chart, there is a late ASC and the Moon is via
combust, perhaps signifying that the woman is dead as the police suspect.

If you have a chance to look at these charts, I'm sure Tess would welcome any
feedback. Her email address is TSTCL@aol.com, or you can post info here and I
can forward it to her.


Thanks for your help,

Tony

=====

PS: TESS just wrote again today:

" I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart on
Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last Friday. I
must say, though, I did not get involved because of a reward. I have
concluded that she is underground but in some kind of a container, and that
the suspect's father is aware of the location possibly because it's his
property, but I don't know how to determine how far away the location is."


X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: @LILLY.PML, Linda Reid <lreid@ida.tassie.net.au>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:50:06 +8

Dear Linda,
If I was working on this case I would read an even chart. The reason
for this is because if you take the last time the person was seen you
can trace his or her movements and see what happened. Only as a last
resort would I use a horary chart for this. First of all you would
have to assign the 1st house to the querent, if the querent had no
ties to the person missing (or dead or whatever) the Lilly says you
assign the 1st house to the victim. I have found however that these
charts are not clear and the best rule of thumb is to use the "last
time seen" chart.

To answer the other part of your question. The time and location is
taken of the astrologer when the astrologer understands the question.
This is what I do unless the querent INSISTS that I use their time
and location (usually this is another astrologer!). Lilly was quite
clear anout this on page 166 of "Christian Astrology".
But in this case Tess is not related to the lost person, she has no
connection to the family and she was not asked by someone else, she
simply asked the question, so the time last seen would be a more
valid to chart to my way of thinking.
I don't know what Deb's stance is on this, but I have worked with Sue
Ward and Dorothy on these types of cases and they agree with using the last
seen chart in the things we have done.
I hope this is helpful to you.
Love & Light
Carol

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:31:47 +1000
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com, "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
From: Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart

At 04:12 PM 9/27/96 +8, Carol A. Wiggers wrote:
>Before reading this please be aware that there is a $10,000.00 reward
> on this case. Carol

Dear Carol - I have understood that a horary chart should be set for
the time and location that the message reaches the astrologer - which
ever astrologer - can you clarify this for me please as I note quite
often charts are provided along with the question - does the
originating chart take precedence over a foewarded question, given
that it might qualify as more spontaneous or have more desperation in
it.

I'm sorry if this seems a fundamental question - I'll be doing Deborah
Houlding's course in Hervey Bay next week - it's a long time since I
read Ivy Jacobson but this seems to be where I've gotten this idea.

Regards

Linda Reid 9.28 am Saturday 27th Sept.
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 20:56:45 UT
>From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Missing Person: Kristen Smart
>
>Fellow Horary List Astrologers,
>
>I received a call from Tess St.Claire in California. She was looking
>for help with a missing person chart. A female college student,
>Kristen Smart, was kidnapped in St.Louis Obispo and has not yet been
>found. A suspect has been questioned.
>
>The woman was first reported missing on 5/25/96 about 1:30 am pst
>(tz 8) (yes PST - Tess converted the time to PST).
>
>Tess asked the horary question on 7/23/96 at 8:34 pm PST (tz 8).
>
>Both charts are for 120w45 and 35n15.
>
>Both charts have the same significators for the missing person (ruled
>by the 1st). In the horary question chart, there is a late ASC and
>the Moon is via combust, perhaps signifying that the woman is dead as
>the police suspect.
>
>If you have a chance to look at these charts, I'm sure Tess would
>welcome any feedback. Her email address is TSTCL@aol.com, or you can
>post info here and I can forward it to her.
>
>
>Thanks for your help,
>
>Tony
>
>=====
>
>PS: TESS just wrote again today:
>
>" I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart
>on Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last
>Friday. I must say, though, I did not get involved because of a
>reward. I have concluded that she is underground but in some kind of
>a container, and that the suspect's father is aware of the location
>possibly because it's his property, but I don't know how to determine
>how far away the location is."
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>
>

@====================================@
A man came out from the Wilderness
" I exist" he cried to the Universe
"Good" replied the Universe
I need someone to look after
My Cats!"
@====================================@



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:39:34 -0700

Hi Angela, Jeanne, Allen

Angela wrote,
>We are talking about influencing an energy flow here, or at least the

>possibility of it, what is so unethical about that?

I think it's a question of what the energy is and where it's flowing from.
A rant about the ethics of raw capitalism isn't appropriate on this list so
I won't get into that. But I've been researching the interface between
alchemy and astrology for an article in a future TA and it's interesting
how some alchemists believed they were chasing fabulous wealth while others
saw it in terms of spiritual evolution. Is money in the bank the same thing
as 'the inner gold of the Sun'? Jeanne wrote,

>The universe is incredibly bountiful, and I think
> there's enough prosperity to go around without
>depriving anyone--

But at some point greed enters the equation and people start grabbing more
than their due. Then as Allen said it's dog-eat-dog -- one speculator gets
rich by bankrupting another, which I don't see as part of the cosmic
blueprint that astrology is supposed to turn us all on to. I realise that
as a non-professional astrologer I'm in a position to take the high moral
ground and come over all pompous, and of course judgements about wealth and
power have been part of astrology from the year dot, so I'm not criticising
or condemning anyone. Astrologers do sometimes come unstuck once they jack
into money and power though. Even William Lilly made some embarrasingly
inaccurate public predictions just as his career peaked, and I think
that's why he spent the rest of his life living quietly in the country.
It's a funny old game, astrology.

David


X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: @LILLY.PML
Subject: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:12:04 +8

Before reading this please be aware that there is a $10,000.00 reward
on this case.
Carol

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 20:56:45 UT
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Missing Person: Kristen Smart

Fellow Horary List Astrologers,

I received a call from Tess St.Claire in California. She was looking
for help with a missing person chart. A female college student,
Kristen Smart, was kidnapped in St.Louis Obispo and has not yet been
found. A suspect has been questioned.

The woman was first reported missing on 5/25/96 about 1:30 am pst (tz
8) (yes PST - Tess converted the time to PST).

Tess asked the horary question on 7/23/96 at 8:34 pm PST (tz 8).

Both charts are for 120w45 and 35n15.

Both charts have the same significators for the missing person (ruled
by the 1st). In the horary question chart, there is a late ASC and
the Moon is via combust, perhaps signifying that the woman is dead as
the police suspect.

If you have a chance to look at these charts, I'm sure Tess would
welcome any feedback. Her email address is TSTCL@aol.com, or you can
post info here and I can forward it to her.


Thanks for your help,

Tony

=====

PS: TESS just wrote again today:

" I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart
on Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last
Friday. I must say, though, I did not get involved because of a
reward. I have concluded that she is underground but in some kind of
a container, and that the suspect's father is aware of the location
possibly because it's his property, but I don't know how to determine
how far away the location is."


Thread: Gambling and lotteries--correction
From: jeanneg@icon.net (Jeanne Garner) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 06:54:55 -0700

<blush> I see I goofed on my most recent post--it said 11th house, but
should have said 12th for that kite. Sorry if I've confused anyone!

Jeanne
==-* My stars!



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:51:54 -0700

At 02:51 AM 9/27/96 +0000, allen edwall wrote:
>>> Astrology is one of the closest forms of that working, why should it be
wrong
>to apply it to our lives across the board? No, I do not think it is unethical -
>just impossible, blast it!!
>
>In order to gain in the financial markets means that someone has to take a
trade
>opposite yours and thus lose on that trade while you gain on it. To use
>astrology to gain advantage over another is not the right use of astrology.
>Using astrology to help people is valid, using it to personally gain advantage
>over or to make oneself or another gain power, control, money or anything else
>over another is not valid.
>
>
>Allen

Bravo, Allen. :)

Julienne




Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:38:50 -0700

Hi Jeanne,

I do agree with you on the boutiful universe aspect, I think the motivation
behind an action is the important criteria - deliberately trying to swindle
someone has a completely different flavour, and will operate a totally
different set of reaction wheels, to honest speculation.

Forgive my ignorance, but could you just elucidate a little on the 5th and 9th
house importance? I can understand the 5th hse importance with creativity et
al, but I'm not sure about the 9th. I must admit, I think the natal chart
must be more relevant, is this what is meant by being 'born lucky'? An innate
sense of timing would also be a pretty good interpretation of 'luck'.

Thanks

Angela



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:37:57 -0700


Why do you think one person's gain is another's loss? Presumably you subscribe
to a view of cosmic scales, and whereas I think it quite a feasible
conception, it is by no means an open and shut case. We will all view the
cosmic rule book in whatever way makes sense to us, but I would say that for
me at any rate it is a question of the old adage 'Do as you will, be it harm
none.' I do believe in a balanced universe, but I don't think it is quite as
specific in its application as you're understanding implies.

Thereby we can only act in accordance with our own code book of harmony and
consideration.

Regards Angela



Thread: On Ginger's query...
From: gpena@sauce.cmact.com (DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:26:25 -0700


Fellow Listers:

As transiting Mercury turns direct now, I would like to apologize first for
having rushed to sent my last communication to the list on "Loteries and
gambling" without having proof-read it: I'm sorry for all those typos and
mistakes. Of course I should have been more carefull particularly since I
knew that retrograding Mercury was squaring my natal Uranus ruler of my
Ascendant.

Let me confess now that, although I've been a consultant astrologer for so
many years, I seldom get into studying horary charts, partly because I am
thoroughly profficient handling most questions via progressions and
transits, and partly because I do not feel proficient using horary
techniques, which is one reason why I registred for this forum, in the hope
of learning how to improve my horary techniques.

Now, getting to the issue of Ginger's query about the outcome of the trial
that shall decide on the custody of her great-granddaughter, I'll remark
that when Ginger initially asked me about it in an e-mail, her main concern,
as I understood it from a very long recount of the case, seemed to be her
desire to find out in advance whether getting herself involved in the trial
would benefit or harm Shanna's case to obtain at least a 50/50 custody over
her daughter Chyana. In other words Shanna was asking Ginger to accompany
her to court and sign a declaration that would strengthen her image as a
responsible mother worthy of receiving the custody of her daughter.
However, when Ginger posted her query in this list, as Deborah gathered, she
comes across as more concerned about the outcome of the trial, without
bringing forth the issue of whether things could go better if she complies
to accompany her grand-daughter to court. Maybe Ginger's posting here then
came through like that because I'd already replied to Ginger saying that
although the transits to Shanna's chart reveal that the outcome of the
initial hearing would be against Shanna, she should nonetheless accompany
her and do her best to help her even though the results would most likely be
very unfavourable to their case. What I saw in Shanna's chart, was that at
the trial, transiting Mercury at 20^23' Virgo will be applying a
peri-partile square to Shanna's natal Moon at 20^50 Gemini, which is much
relevant as Moon rules Shanna's 5th Cusp of children, and Mercury rules her
4th of the mother and her 4th from her 4th, of her grandmother....So,
considering that Shanna is going to have that square from transiting Mercury
(signifying Ginger in her chart) to her natal Moon (signifying her daughter)
no matter whether Ginger complies to go or not, I figured that the best
advise was that Ginger, with due caution, should agree to accompany Shanna
to court. I reasoned that if she took the alternative option of not going
to court, that would be naturally signified in the square from the trial's
Mercury to Shanna's natal Moon ruler of her 5th, and that would surely be
worst that the risk that by going things could actually turn out for the
worst, particularly if she is aware of the aspects, as she is. But at the
same time transiting Saturn and the Lunar Node in Aries, enhanced by the
current Lunar Eclipse that I am watching through my studio's window as I
write these words now, trian Shanna's natal Saturn at 02^56' Leo in her
natal House 5 of children (Pluto in Sagittarius is closing the grand trian).
This slow Fire grand trian with one vertice on Shanna's Saturn in her House
5 of children, tightly conjunct Ginger's natal Nadir/SUN/Pluto conjunction
(super-tight as all involved orbs are less than 20 minutes!) easily is taken
to mean that despite bad news surely coming on this preliminary hearing, if
they play it naturally and pursue it, even if that may mean having to appeal
a negative sentence, in a matter of weeks the issue of the custody will be
settled very much in accordance with Shanna's expectations. So that's
basically what I had to say to Ginger when I advised her to jump in and try
to help her grand-daughter with all her resources, and keep trying despite
an initial negative impression to their cause.

So now the thing is to see whether the main concern of Ginger as she
initially queried me on the matter, and the assumed correctness of my
advise, reflect in any discernible fashion in the chart of the query as she
posted it here.

Thank you very much for your kind attention

Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez

Astrologer



Thread: Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.}
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:21:21 -0700


Hi Deb, in response to your main points: I don't have Lilly's CA with me at
present, so can't quote references, but he does state to the effect that
nothing happens when the Moon is VOC, except when she is VOC in Taurus,
Cancer, Sag, or Pisces when "... she performs somewhat...." hence my
interpretation that although nothing of great significance seems set to
transpire in regard to the decision of the Court, because of the Moon's
limited influence, it would seem to imply that something may be able to be
rescued from the situation; such as, the Judge may decide to grant total
custody to the father, but may defer the case for final judgement pending the
daughter's progress or medical reports; alternatively he may grant minimal
access to the daughter, which will not be the 50/50 they are hoping for, and
which was the actual question asked, but it will be better than nothing.

Vertex; I didn't follow up the interpretation of this because it didn't appear
to find much favor on the list by virtue of it being modern. Consequently, I
mentioned it because it seemed relevant, but I did not pursue because of the
seemingly lack of interest in its implications and left it to those who may
use it to draw their own conclusions. I don't feel comfortable giving chapter
and verse about the Vertex on this list, a) because I can't quote various
tombs of reference, and b) because it is obviously modern and may incur the
wrath of those who wish to keep the list to traditional methods. Purely in
response to your query, though, I will just say that I use the Vertex because
it has had relevance in the majority of my own interpretations, not as being
indicative of a course of action, but purely as indicative of a major event or
development in the question and usually giving some indication of timing or
date. This is my own usage because (touch wood!) it seems to have worked for
me in the past. Primarily, I guess, I use it to define timing if it coincides
with the main pattern in the chart or links to any relevant cusp or
significator. In this instance the Vertex is situated in the turned 4th house,
indicating (to me) that a fairly important event is imminent - OK we know
that, the decision of the Court, but it shows to me that the chart is linking
with the question - it is 2 degs away from the cusp, I would therefore have
said within 2days - 2 weeks; what influence? well Saturn is moving towards it
in his retrograde motion, out of the turned 1st house, making Saturn a
cosignificator of the daughter, I would therefore have felt that this final
event will not be entirely to the daughter's pleasing, Saturn being a malefic,
especially being in Aries, not at all happy, altho the retrograde motion may
make me wonder if there could be a deferrment, but this is my reaction, not
traditional, admittedly. Traditionally speaking, Saturn in the first house and
retrograde all combines to indicate something with which the person concerned
will be decidely unhappy, and can also show unwholesome and unhealthy
conditions. Now, all this is approaching the Vertex, sitting in the turned 4th
- consequently, I would say the end of the matter will not be a pleasing
verdict for the daughter, but it may reflect her current condition.

Sorry about the GMT - you were absolutely right, I meant BST.

I take what you mean about the question being non-productive, but very often
what is going to happen is the main relevance to people, don't you find? It is
the not knowing which is difficult to cope with and, sometimes, even if there
is nothing a person can do about it, to be aware of the most likely outcome is
sometimes helpful, and then any other details appertaining to the situation
can be weighed up and maybe useful either in attitude or action.

For example, there are many illustrations in CA which indicate questions about
whether the querent will marry, from who it may be to how much the dowry will
amount to. These are purely points of curiosity or interest, a desire to know,
not born out of a direct question as to 'what must I do to find a marriage
partner'. So, altho I agree with what you say, I would still tend to feel that
there is a purpose to be served with this type of enquiry. I guess we all want
to know what is round the corner, whether we can do anything about it or not.
However, you are certainly helping me to be more selective/particular regarding
questions, rather than be at every beck and call, so thanks for your direction
and responses, they are much appreciated.

Another point for this particular question, it does seem a very good one for
the list, and if it gives any help to the querent and her daughter, then that
is an additional bonus. It could definitely be instructive from a horary point
of practise, if everyone had an input, even if it was only to say why they
wouldn't feel interpretation was wise.

If you're going away for an autumnal hols, have a good one!

Regards

Angela



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: jeanneg@icon.net (Jeanne Garner) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:50:03 -0700
Status: U

Hi, Angela, David & all,

>notable by its repeated lack of success! It does make you wonder doesn't
it? >Is it just totally impossible to 'work' with such energies? do 'such
energies' >just not exist in the first place? Or is there some cosmic arm of
the law >which says 'thou shalt not'?


I think it has to be in the natal chart to begin with--and I know I'm not
alone in that opinion. Some years back I ran across some folks who enter
sweepstakes a lot, and like any good drug, they got me hooked too--but never
mind about that. What was interesting were the charts of the ones who
consistantly win: lots of 5th and 9th house emphasis, and, when I could get
them to note entry dates, I noticed harmonious aspects with
transit-to-transit planets mostly. They seem to have an innate sense of
timing (could that be what we call "luck?") when it comes to entering,
because not a one of them knew anything about astrology. One has a kite
formation involving the 11th, 9th, and 5th: this woman hasn't worked for
years, and drives nice cars, goes on lovely vacations (cruises, etc.), and
uses great computers. She wins a LOT.

>We are talking about influencing an energy flow here, or at least the

>possibility of it, what is so unethical about that? I don't know the answer;

Angela, I think you have a great point in this. The universe is incredibly
bountiful, and I think there's enough prosperity to go around without
depriving anyone--unless someone's deliberately trying to swindle someone
out of something, and in honest speculation, that is not the case.

Jeanne
==-* My stars!



Thread: Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.}
From: gingerk7@juno.com (ALICE [GINGER] M. KENNISON) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:07:22 -0700

Hello, Deb,

I am Ginger, Shanna's "GRANDMOTHER" who sent the original Question
concerning custody of Cheyenne.
Because of Shanna's lack of knowledge of procedures, this court date on
Sept. 30 is similar to the procedure we went through but without a
lawyer. So this hearing is ONLY one of about 3-4 that are held before
the judge. There will be a temporary custody paper involved for now,
while a investigation is held, where all her family members and any
witnesses will go before a court councilor who discusses everything with
each one who wants to respond and testify. This is all taken down almost
word for word, from both sides of the family's and witnesses, papers are
prepared from all this investigation, then it is taken back before the
judge and either a decision is made or it's taken to trial. But, after
this first hearing, when Shanna goes back in 3 days, is when they set up
for her to pay some support and ALSO Visitation Rights set up. So We are
not stuck with such a short period of time as I original thought from
what Shanna said. Since she has a lawyer and Baby' father has his MOMMY
paying for his lawyer , the case will not take 6 months like it does when
people do all the paper work themselves without aid of a lawyer. So I
would say that the Ascendant of that chart being as it was is perhaps
right in the fact that it's too soon for an answer. The thing I worry
about most is Shanna is to much of a door mat, if you know what I mean,
and she let's people walk over her and she'e let his entire family walk
on her and treat her like dirt, as she was hoping for acceptance with
the family, because she cared so much for this mommy's. boy. We as a
family have been trying to point out to her things regarding this
relationship and how he was doing her, but she always defended the creep.
She lets her heart rule instead of her brain, and that's not always the
smartest way, as you know. Thank you for your assistance. I will use
these replys from you all to try to help me learn and understand some of
the processes of Horary. I feel better just knowing now that we as a
family unit have a chance to help her fight for custody of her child. I
haven't seen the child myself but around 4-5 times since her birth, but
you should see her, she is absolutely a born movie star. Even her birth
picture shows her outstanding beauty. Her mother is a very beautiful
young lady and I must admit, the father is an extremely hansom male
person.
How ever, I know he's the father of my great grand daughter, but I've
never picked up good vibes from him long as I've known him. I don't like
him as I knew he was doing Shanna wrong and treating her badly. We have
all been telling her he was going to try and take that child with the aid
of his mother, and now it's happening. She does not deserve this.
Thank You,
GINGER K.
On 26 Sep 96 18:20:18 EDT Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM>
writes:
>Angela, you write:
>
>"Deb, there are many strictures against judgement in this chart, in
>view of our
>
>recent exchanges, is this one you would have deferred from?"
>
>I don't have all the information on the original email because my
>computer
>crashed as I was reading it and when I restarted it that, and some
>other
>messages were missing. But I think I read most of it, or at least
>enough to make
>a few comments.
>
>Reading through your interpretation of your judgement I found myself
>agreeing
>with your use of the symbolism BUT, when I drew up the chart myself
>from the
>data you gave (26 Set 1996; GMT 9.37am; 52N25, 1W31) I got a whole
>different
>chart, with the ascendant at 10 degrees 21 Scorpio, which makes the
>Baby (5th
>from 5th) ruled by the Moon. The chart you describe is correct for
>8.37 am GMT,
>so perhaps you meant 9.37 am BST??
>
>Presuming your chart is correct and the data was wrong, the only
>'consideration
>before judgement' (note I never use the word stricture which is a
>modern term)
>that would have really concerned me is the late ascendant, and the
>issue that
>this would have brought to my mind is that it is all too late to make
>any
>difference. I must admit that this morning when I read the post I was
>full of
>sympathy for the mother and the daughter but wondered what purpose
>horary could
>serve in this matter. The question was 'will we win the case?', not
>'is there
>anything we can do to influence this matter and create a positive
>outcome'
>(which there obviously isn't at this stage), nor 'should I attend the
>court and
>give evidence' --- just: 'tell me what will happen'. Why? What
>purpose will it
>serve? The matter goes to court within days and then the querent will
>have her
>answer anyway. Perhaps the time to ask an appropriate horary is after
>that -
>'now that my daughter has maintained her rights is there anything she
>can do to
>make the situation with the father less stressful?' or 'now that the
>father has
>won the case, would we benefit by pursuing this matter further or
>appealing?'
>That kind of question allows horary to be put to use whereas 'tell me
>what will
>happen?' charts, where they involve issues that are too far down the
>road to be
>manipulated and are about to resolve themselves anyway, reduce it to a
>guessing
>game. So maybe, that's what the late ascendant was suggesting.
>
>(To the lady that posted the original email - I hope I don't seem
>insensitive,
>as I really do sympathise with your situation and hope that things go
>well for
>you, your daughter and the baby, but maybe we could help in a more
>positive way
>if we don't restrict ourselves to trying to anticipate what the court
>will
>decide).
>
>Bearing in mind the late ascendant, I think that your judgement of the
>chart
>made sense, and I tend to go along with all you say. Only 2 points
>that I want
>to query: Firstly where you say:
>
>"However, as the Moon is VOC in Pisces, this could mean that there is
>something
>
>to be gleaned from it all."
>
>I don't understand that remark, or why the Moon VOC in Pisces would
>suggest it.
>
>
>The second point is where you mention the vertex. It must have SOME
>meaning, if
>it doesn't it seems a little pointless mentioning it at all. I really
>am dumb
>on what it is or what it is supposed to mean, and no-one seems to be
>offering
>any suggestions. Is it a real astronomical 'thing'? Am I right in
>presuming
>that it is a nebulous area - I don't know why I think that - which
>could imply
>confusion and lack of clarity, or is it just a nebulous area to me
>because I
>don't understand it at all. I know that a lot of people do use it so
>someone
>out there must know what it is actually supposed to be. I wouldn't
>begin to
>contemplate its meaning before I understood its nature and unless both
>those
>things are understood I wonder why we should give it any attention at
>all?
>
>I'm going away in a couple of days and won't be back until the end of
>October,
>so I may have to make this my last post for a while. But I won't ask
>Carol to
>unsubscribe me until Sunday, so that I can still lurk in the
>background for a
>while and see if anyone has anymore to offer on that.
>
>By the way, I enjoyed your reply to David re astrology & money. I
>don't think
>that there is any reason why we shouldn't use astrology to enrich our
>lives in
>any sense of the word - AS LONG, as we don't try to enrich our bank
>account at
>the expense of anything else, and manage to maintain a balanced
>approach to all
>experiences. But you sum up my feelings when you say that you don't
>think it is
>as unethical as unlikely. Like Dr Gonaz said, his good results
>concured with
>times when he had favourable transits and was feeling in balance with
>the
>cosmos. We can't recreate those conditions artificially which is why I
>doubt
>he'll ever be able to perfect his guaranteed method for success. To do
>so, you
>would have to take out of the equation the part of astrology that
>utilises our
>living connection with the universe via the soul. Yet we all know
>that there
>are times when we are feeling good, and our judgement is sound, and
>our
>astrology works well, and other times when we are out of balance and
>our
>judgement as astrologers suffers as a result. So if our own personal
>awareness
>wasn't relevant, how could that be?
>
>In all of this I am wondering what's happened to Mark, who started the
>whole
>thing off and has now gone very quiet. Are you not feeling well Mark,
>or are you
>just too busy trying to learn all those new techniques on how to make
>yourself
>rich quick??
>
>TTFN
>
>Deb
>
>
>


Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:49:59 -0700

>> Astrology is one of the closest forms of that working, why should it be wrong
to apply it to our lives across the board? No, I do not think it is unethical -
just impossible, blast it!!

In order to gain in the financial markets means that someone has to take a trade
opposite yours and thus lose on that trade while you gain on it. To use
astrology to gain advantage over another is not the right use of astrology.
Using astrology to help people is valid, using it to personally gain advantage
over or to make oneself or another gain power, control, money or anything else
over another is not valid.


Allen



Thread: Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.}
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:21:00 -0700
Status: U

Angela, you write:

"Deb, there are many strictures against judgement in this chart, in view of our

recent exchanges, is this one you would have deferred from?"

I don't have all the information on the original email because my computer
crashed as I was reading it and when I restarted it that, and some other
messages were missing. But I think I read most of it, or at least enough to make
a few comments.

Reading through your interpretation of your judgement I found myself agreeing
with your use of the symbolism BUT, when I drew up the chart myself from the
data you gave (26 Set 1996; GMT 9.37am; 52N25, 1W31) I got a whole different
chart, with the ascendant at 10 degrees 21 Scorpio, which makes the Baby (5th
from 5th) ruled by the Moon. The chart you describe is correct for 8.37 am GMT,
so perhaps you meant 9.37 am BST??

Presuming your chart is correct and the data was wrong, the only 'consideration
before judgement' (note I never use the word stricture which is a modern term)
that would have really concerned me is the late ascendant, and the issue that
this would have brought to my mind is that it is all too late to make any
difference. I must admit that this morning when I read the post I was full of
sympathy for the mother and the daughter but wondered what purpose horary could
serve in this matter. The question was 'will we win the case?', not 'is there
anything we can do to influence this matter and create a positive outcome'
(which there obviously isn't at this stage), nor 'should I attend the court and
give evidence' --- just: 'tell me what will happen'. Why? What purpose will it
serve? The matter goes to court within days and then the querent will have her
answer anyway. Perhaps the time to ask an appropriate horary is after that -
'now that my daughter has maintained her rights is there anything she can do to
make the situation with the father less stressful?' or 'now that the father has
won the case, would we benefit by pursuing this matter further or appealing?'
That kind of question allows horary to be put to use whereas 'tell me what will
happen?' charts, where they involve issues that are too far down the road to be
manipulated and are about to resolve themselves anyway, reduce it to a guessing
game. So maybe, that's what the late ascendant was suggesting.

(To the lady that posted the original email - I hope I don't seem insensitive,
as I really do sympathise with your situation and hope that things go well for
you, your daughter and the baby, but maybe we could help in a more positive way
if we don't restrict ourselves to trying to anticipate what the court will
decide).

Bearing in mind the late ascendant, I think that your judgement of the chart
made sense, and I tend to go along with all you say. Only 2 points that I want
to query: Firstly where you say:

"However, as the Moon is VOC in Pisces, this could mean that there is something

to be gleaned from it all."

I don't understand that remark, or why the Moon VOC in Pisces would suggest it.


The second point is where you mention the vertex. It must have SOME meaning, if
it doesn't it seems a little pointless mentioning it at all. I really am dumb
on what it is or what it is supposed to mean, and no-one seems to be offering
any suggestions. Is it a real astronomical 'thing'? Am I right in presuming
that it is a nebulous area - I don't know why I think that - which could imply
confusion and lack of clarity, or is it just a nebulous area to me because I
don't understand it at all. I know that a lot of people do use it so someone
out there must know what it is actually supposed to be. I wouldn't begin to
contemplate its meaning before I understood its nature and unless both those
things are understood I wonder why we should give it any attention at all?

I'm going away in a couple of days and won't be back until the end of October,
so I may have to make this my last post for a while. But I won't ask Carol to
unsubscribe me until Sunday, so that I can still lurk in the background for a
while and see if anyone has anymore to offer on that.

By the way, I enjoyed your reply to David re astrology & money. I don't think
that there is any reason why we shouldn't use astrology to enrich our lives in
any sense of the word - AS LONG, as we don't try to enrich our bank account at
the expense of anything else, and manage to maintain a balanced approach to all
experiences. But you sum up my feelings when you say that you don't think it is
as unethical as unlikely. Like Dr Gonaz said, his good results concured with
times when he had favourable transits and was feeling in balance with the
cosmos. We can't recreate those conditions artificially which is why I doubt
he'll ever be able to perfect his guaranteed method for success. To do so, you
would have to take out of the equation the part of astrology that utilises our
living connection with the universe via the soul. Yet we all know that there
are times when we are feeling good, and our judgement is sound, and our
astrology works well, and other times when we are out of balance and our
judgement as astrologers suffers as a result. So if our own personal awareness
wasn't relevant, how could that be?

In all of this I am wondering what's happened to Mark, who started the whole
thing off and has now gone very quiet. Are you not feeling well Mark, or are you
just too busy trying to learn all those new techniques on how to make yourself
rich quick??

TTFN

Deb



Thread: Astronauts
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:55:30 -0700

All

I'm in the beginning stages of a study of the nativities of astronauts using
the traditional method. I wonder if anyone has any information they might
share with me. I particularly want to know who made up which crew and
whether they were military, scientists or engineers. Of course, any good
birth data would be helpful although I have 12.

I think that it might be better to deal with this off-list, so if you are
willing and able to help perhaps you'd contact me privately.

Thanks in advance.

Sue


The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: X
From: tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 06:02:39 -0700


subscribe




--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---


Thread: Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.}
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:46:24 -0700

I am a little confused with this chart as to location of Court hearing, and
also the time thereof. Consequently, I drew up a chart for the time I
understood the query, that being 26 Set 1996; GMT 9.37am; 52N25, 1W31.

>From that chart I would have said it does not look particularly hopeful; the
asc is way too late, indeed within 2' of the next sign, which is either too
late in one sense or much too early in another, and the asc is also in the via
combusta - not good omens. However, the asc will indicate the Querent, in this
case the Mother, and being in the via combusta can show someone who is not in
control of the circumstances, which, in this case, obviously the mother is
not. Daughter, Shanna, is signified by the 5th house of Pisces, therefore
ruled by Jupiter. Jupiter is not in a good position and won't be until Feb
1998; the baby (Chyan) is the radical 9th (5th from 5th), thus ruled by
Mercury which is static in its own sign of Virgo in the radical 11th, turned
7th being the houseof Shanna's partner and the baby's father. Consequently I
would have said this implies the baby will remain with her father.

The turned sixth house of Shanna's health is ruled by the Sun which is
applying by square to Jupiter (Shanna), thus indicating there could be
continued health problems for Shanna, although the good news is the baby looks
to be in a good and strong condition.Maybe Shanna's health condition will
influence the Judge's decision.

At best, I would say the fact that the asc is only 2' away from the next sign
may imply that judgement will be deferred.

Part of the mother is at 2 degrees Gemini which is partile conjunct the (wait
for it!) Vertex. (In the light of recent discussions I am not going to even
attempt an interpretation of that, I merely mention it in passing!!)

POF is inconjunct Mercury, being both Shanna's partner, baby, and
communication. This, again, I feel indicates not the best of news received,
but maybe there will be something to work with.

Finally, in the radical chart, Saturn rules the 4th house, end of the matter,
and Saturn is not a happy chappy at the present time. Consequently, I think
there will be severe restrictions still applying at the end of day, and it
will not be totally as Shanna and her mother would hope, there is a mutually
applying opposition between Sun and Saturn, Sun ruling radical 10th house of
Judges, and Saturn ruling 4th house end of matter. I therefore do not feel
that there will be a totally positive ruling for Shanna, but there may be some
scope whereby she can work to improve the issue in time.

Moon is also VOC, unless you include the outer planets (Neptune); indicating
nothing can be done, as implied by the late asc. Jupiter is intercepted, in a
fateful degree and partile conjunct fixed star Facies, which does not augur
well being a mix of Sun and Mars, there does appear to be the possibility of
some anger around Shanna, and there certainly does not appear to be anything
she can do to constructively change the situation at the present time.
However, as the Moon is VOC in Pisces, this could mean that there is something
to be gleaned from it all.

At the time of this chart the Moon is moving towards an eclipse in radical
5th house, turned 1st, house representing Shanna, Moon being co-significator
of both Shanna's mother (Quesitor) and Shanna's baby, Chyan. I am not too
clued up on the implication of eclipses, so will hand over to those who are.

Deb, there are many strictures against judgement in this chart, in view of our
recent exchanges, is this one you would have deferred from?

Regards
Angela



Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 01:23:36 -0700

Hi David, I read your post with interest, it seems that through the ages we
have been trying to find a way of using astrology to influence finances ....
notable by its repeated lack of success! It does make you wonder doesn't it?
Is it just totally impossible to 'work' with such energies? do 'such energies'
just not exist in the first place? Or is there some cosmic arm of the law
which says 'thou shalt not'?

However, in relation to this last question, and also the point of ethics,
before answering that directly, perhaps it would be more relevant to look at
why we feel motivated to ask the question in the first place. Do you think it
is purely out of ingrained Christian principles that to be poor is 'holy', or
to use something for personal gain is 'sinful'(unless, of course you are the
Church), money is 'dirty'(unless you've got loads of it)? I know this is a
feeling common to the majority of folk, including myself, but I often question,
why? There seems no commonsense answer other than the ethics that society, out
of religion, has seen fit to implement.

We are talking about influencing an energy flow here, or at least the
possibility of it, what is so unethical about that? I don't know the answer;
and I am as apprehensive as the next person; but I am also extremely wary
about being subliminally restricted by a set of rules and principles emanating
from centuries of autocratic self-servers putting the rank and file through
inumerable guilt-trips in the name of so-called religion.

I find astrology utterly fascinating, not the least so because of incidents
such as Abbe's, which illustrate that even then, when the traditional roots of
our practise were more closely adhered to, no more success was achieved than
today in linking into true prediction regarding material matters (yes, I will
read TA, Deb, as soon as I get home tonight!), but if we are all of the same
energy fields, we should be able to, that is what it is all about, surely,
from healing, to divination, to magic - working with the energies, the ethics
of the case are whether our acts are intentionally injurous to the whole.
Astrology is one of the closest forms of that working, why should it be wrong
to apply it to our lives across the board? No, I do not think it is unethical
- just impossible, blast it!!

Regards
Angela



Thread: Horserace
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:38:38 -0700

Andy, you write

>
The 1.45 presented the Moon in tighter conjunction to Saturn and within 3
degrees of the Ascendant. However, no runner was suggested by this aspect.
............ The neglected Moon/Saturn/Ascendant/Pisces
aspect came into play as the close finish was decided by a photograph which
took the judge a longer time than usual to announce. The jockey s surname
was Hide, which is not unconnected with the Scorpio/Pisces aspects.
>

Surely, more connected with the Moon-Saturn conjunction don't you think?
Delay = Saturn, Photograph = Moon, Hide (Leather) = Saturn

Just a thought,
Deb



Thread: Where is the list
From: Manon Richard <carmen@dds.nl> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:00:38 -0700

Could you please check whether I'm still subscribed?
I didn't receive any mail from the list for quite some time.
Maybe the list is low in contributions.
In that case, please ignore this note.
However, if I am unsubscribed for some deep dark mysterious reason, could you please subscribe me again?

Kind regards,

Manon
carmen@dds.nl



Thread: Vaporization
From: "Gray,AL,Andy,NAI83,GRAYAL M" <GRAYAL@boat.bt.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 03:29:39 -0700
Status: U


Hello Sue

>Coley has a section on gambling. A group of us tried on a weekly basis some
>years ago, but I can't say that we did very well. Any wins never amounted
to
>much or could be claimed to be achieved other than by chance. The races
with
>few runners are easier to work on because there are fewer options. As I
>recall the best results came from matching the horses' names to the
astrology.

The following is a quote from the last issue (1995) of our society rag,
Jupiter Rising. The context was a day at the races, charts had been drawn
for the main races (11th Nov 1994, Huntingdon, UK). The author was David
Bird.

The 12.45 had no planets on any angle, nor any aspect becoming exact at that
time or shortly afterward. I therefore concentrated on the major aspects
regardless of their position within the chart, which were Sun, Jupiter and
Pluto within a 9 degree orb in Scorpio, and the Moon conjunct Saturn in
Pisces (1st house). Examinations of the chart, racing form and the betting
market presented one real selection, the odds-on favourite DARK SILHOUETTE
(although this horse had never won a race), suggested by the planets in
Scorpio (DARK) and Pisces (SILHOUETTE). This horse duly won and returned a
modest profit.

The second race at 1.15 again had no placement on an angle, or significant
planetary aspect becoming exact at that time. The Sun, which I take in
certain circumstances to represent the favourite, squared the ascendant, and
this unfavourable aspect reflected the odds-on JURA finishing a poor 4th.
Even with hindsight I cannot find a reasonable astrological explanation for
the winner WAMDHA, and after some years of study, I conclude that some
charts will not highlight a winner and so such races should be left alone.

The 1.45 presented the Moon in tighter conjunction to Saturn and within 3
degrees of the Ascendant. However, no runner was suggested by this aspect.
The ascendant (Pisces) and the Midheaven (Sagittarius) are both ruled by
Jupiter. This planet lay between the Sun and Pluto and was therefore
powerfully placed. The one horse s name suggested by this aspect was JUMBEAU
and this horse, with jockey in red and sagittarian maroon silks, duly bought
home the bacon at odds of 5/1. The neglected Moon/Saturn/Ascendant/Pisces
aspect came into play as the close finish was decided by a photograph which
took the judge a longer time than usual to announce. The jockey s surname
was Hide, which is not unconnected with the Scorpio/Pisces aspects.

Regards
Andy


Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 04:05:50 -0700
Status: U

I once spent hours electing what looked like the perfect chart within the
available time range for entering a get-rich-quick competition. I even got
up hideously early on the appointed day to make sure I dropped my entry
into the postbox in the hour of Jupiter at a moment when the Moon was
exactly trine natal Fortuna (or something like that -- can't remember the
exact details). That was in about 1989. I'm still waiting to hear that I've
won...

Sorry to be a history bore but I'm reminded of a story about Louis XIV of
France who sent the Abbe Pregnani on a delicate diplomatic mission to
Charles II of England. The Abbe was reputed to be one of the wisest
astrologers in all Europe and King Louis was hoping to influence Charles
through his astral philosophy. But it all went horribly wrong when he
failed to pick a single winner for Charles at Newmarket races, which
provoked a diplomatic incident and led to the poor old Abbe being hastily
recalled to France in disgrace.

One further point -- is there an ethical question here? Even if it's
possible, is it acceptable for astrologers to use this 'divine inspiration'
for feathering their own nests or is it tantamount to 'insider trading'?

David


Thread: Vaporization
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:46:34 -0700
Status: U


Anne,

So what is the check list? Or do we have to buy the book?

Regards

Angela



Thread: Vaporization
From: spica@world.net Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:41:31 -0700

Re Winning the Lottery
In Lois Rodden's "Money and how to make it from astrology" she has a 10 point
checklist to see if you have a lucky chart. If you get less than 6 out of 10 you stop buying
tickets. The results seemed to correlate with the perceived luckiness (or not) of our
family so I recommended it to a friend. She did the charts of her family and friends,
picked 3 couples who all scored 9 or 10 out of 10 and formed a syndicate. The first
week they won about $400 per couple.
They haven't said whether they have continued with the system.
Good Luck
Anne (7 out of 10)

Anne Elliott
Spica Publications



Thread: Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.}
From: gingerk7@juno.com (ALICE [GINGER] M. KENNISON) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 02:30:22 -0700
Status: U

To: williman_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.}
Message-ID: 19960925.012102.18375.1. GingerK7@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno
1.15
From: gingerk7@juno.com (ALICE [GINGER] M. KENNISON) Date: Wed, 25 Sep
1996 04:29:02 EDT

From: gingerk7@juno.com (ALICE [GINGER] M. KENNISON)
((( 3nd sending))) others returned
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 02:10:28 EDT
Sorry for the long post, I though I needed to explain the circumstances
of this question.

Hello to all you from Ginger K.,

I am a brand new member of the list. Dr. Tamaz told me about WilliamLilly
List, and I joined it to get more Astrology knowledge and learningerience
with Horary Astrology,although I'm considered a advanced student of
Astrology. Dr. Tamez andIare friends and I told him about my
granddaughters experience with her2nd baby daughter who was born 5/22/96.
She (Shanna) was living with the baby's father (Rick) up until Father's
Day when they had a big fight and split. He went back home with his
"Mommy" (only son & spoiled)He is 22 now and Shanna is 21 in November.
They were sharing custody of the child since Shanna was back working
(dancing) so as to support herself, plus he had started a class she
signed up for while pregnant, So AS TheyAgreed he took the baby home with
him to his mothers and she was helping him with
the child(1st grandchild). His mother started calling the punches
concerning the child, and there was dispute between them on and off
regarding Shanna seeing the child. The times got less frequent and the
father had been bringing the child over at her Apt. and he also spending
the night with her about once a week.Supposedly they were still seeing
one another and talked that sometime in the future they would get
back together. She has been totally "in love" with this little weasel
and he treats her badly and calls all the punches. Since Father's day
everything has dwindled to sometime 2 weeks before he would let Shanna
see the baby. Now this! I think she's seen the light to his plot and the
situation and hired a lawyer to try to keep custody at least 50/50 with
the father due to her plight. He wants total custody and forget she is
the childs mother. She has an older child of which my husband and I have
had legal guardianship since she was 6 months old and she's now 2 & 1/2
years old.
Shanna signed papers over for this to take place mainly due to her age
and lack of maturity and her not able to take adequate care of the child
and work. She visits with and spends time with Wynnona rather often.
Wynnona was abused by her father before she was 6 months. Her father
(different guy) did drugs and his youth and lack of knowledge of babies
and taking care of her ended with bruises on the child and sickness and
inability of the child to sleep will and her waking up screaming.
Shanna went back to work and was supporting them all and didn't believe
at first he was abusing Wynnona. She then split with the father
and wasn't able to handle things working and careing for the child. My
husband and I talk to her about letting us take the child as it wasn't
good for her to be dragged around from sitter to sitter. she needed some
stability. So due to problems with the child's father, we got legal
custody. Now both Shanna and Wynnona's father would have to abide by
circumstance of the courts rule before either can get her. Shanna's had
one circumstance after another keeping her from going through the legal
hassle of getting Wynnona back, although she visits with and she stays
with the child either here some or takes her to her place some. The child
remains very stable, cared for and feels much more secure with my husband
and I, and all circumstances are better for her here then going home with
her mom. That's another reason Shanna hasn't filed to get Wynnona back up
to this point. But she knows the child is here and she is not totally
separated from the child. Now, her 2nd child (infant) is possibly going
to be taken totally from her plus of course she's lost the relationship
with the father. She has straightened up her life and got her self off
the drugs that she did get involved with for a short while after
Wynnona's birth. She is still unstable to a degree but working toward
getting a career other thandancing and being a mother for her two girls.
But Rick with
his mother backing and pushing him and (paying) is wanting to totally
take Baby Chyann away from her. The court date on the 30 of September
is not the end of the matter, she says there is another hearing of some
type for 3 days later 10/03/96. The area here is San Diego Ca. and I
would assume the question time could be the time dated on this post or
either the time of my first inquiry with Dr. Tamez. (which I have
included in this post.
................................
The Question again is will she (Shanna) get at least 50/50 custody of
herbaby, or will the father get the total custody with his mother backing
him?
.................................
<SNIP> referral from Dr. Tamez:

I'm glad you are going to heed my advise on the Shanna legal hassle next
week. I think you will feel better if you do all what is reasonably
within your reach to help her along, although the results may be
different from what she expects because of that tight square from
transiting mercury of the trial's date to her natal Moon ruler of her
Cusp 5 of children...Yet
the Eclipse trians her Leo Saturn over your sun/Nadir/Pluto, and
something maybe gained after all. This is an interesting case for the
LillyList you know....Maybe you still have time to post a query on that
trial over there and see what we get from all these Traditional
Astrologers.
From: gpena@sauce.cmact.com (DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><
TIME OF ORIGINAL QUESTION.(FIRST TIME ASKED)
From: GingerK7
To: gpena@sauce.cmact.com
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:31:08 PST
<><><><><><><><><><><
Will she still have at least 50/50 custody of the child or will Rick and
his"mommy" get to keep the hild. Chyann should be able to maintain
relationships with both sides of her family. Wynnona does.
<SNIP>
I told you that Shanna's baby's father" Rick" got a restraining order
against Shanna, and she can't go anywhere near his house or work or even
see her own baby. This took place after Shanna and her mom "Kitty" went
over to his house, supposedly when he (Rick) wasn't home, as Kitty wanted
to see the baby before she went back to Anza. She has only seen the child
twice. Apparently his mother wouldn't open the door.
<snip>
So the following monday after that Sunday, Shanna got served with a
legal restraining order. As a onsequence she has employed a lawyer So she
doesn't lose custody of Chyann. This is Wynnona's baby sister that she
has only seen maybe 4 times. Now a court date has been set for
September 30, 96. I'm not sure of the time, Shanna didn't tell me that.
She has ask me to come to court with her and she also wants me to write a
decoration proclaiming that if she ask for Wynnona back now that I would
let her take her back.
<snip>
If I have to go under oath, with a lawyer from the other side, he is
going to question me in such a way, that I would have to admit, that I
didn't think that Shanna should have comple te custody of the child, she
needs help. She can't handle full time child care, day in and day out,
much less also attend school and work to. She can not do it. I didn't
think that she was organized enough to go to classes and handle it
andwork to. That was confirmed, when she had to drop out temporally but
it was mainly due to health problems generated from the pregnancy, and
all her activity of going back to work so quickly after the pregnancy
doing dancing. She had to miss to much time from classes because of it.
Now, she has to wait until January to start all over again. She did do
pretty good up until her health started to suffer.That surprised me. She
feels it very important that I go, and apparently her lawyer to, as I
was listed as a licensed Foster parent with the county.
<><><><><<>><><>>><>
If you have any questions of me in regard to this please e-mail me.
Since this is a personal matter, may it will help me understand the
mechanics of Horay better.
Thank you very much for helping me understand this.
Best Regards,

Ginger K. Gingerk7@juno.com


Thread: Lotteries & gambling
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:02:29 -0700

Dear Ang (& Mark),

>re Lottery posting: (you're taking me too seriously, y'knows) '.... luck is

important to me ...." ? Hmmmm, no more than anyone else. Like you, I don't

exactly have the golden touch - in fact if I so much as watch a person play
the 'one-armed bandit' machines, they lose!! But I'd love to find out if there
is an influencing system one could work with.
>


Now I'm not one to plug the Traditional Astrologer Magazine as you know, but
just want to mention that there is a 5 page horary feature in the current issue
which covers speculative investments, gambling and lotteries from the
traditional perspective and discusses the debate over 2nd house v. 5th house
rulership. The most important thing is never to gamble on a horary or election
chart if your nativity implies dismal failure. The seed of success has to lie
in the nativity first.

The other text book that I get asked for a lot is Sepharial's SILVER KEY which
is supposed to be a good guide to how to win on the horses, but I haven't
studied it myself.

Personally I don't think there is a magical system waiting to be discovered,
mainly because we have a limited perception of what 'luck' and real opportunity
is all about. I once predicted to a client that this certain month was going to
be full of financial gain because he had really strong Jupiter contacts with
trines all over the place in his nativity. He later complained that he'd had a
lousy month financially and quite a challenging month all-round. But some of
those experiences he found difficult really opened his mind and changed his
attitudes and a lot of problems were resolved for him AND he got free of a very
restrictive relationship. Money wasn't an issue in his life anyway, since he was
basically a wealthy man. The experience was about growth and freedom and I'd
missed that by looking at it through the materialistic viewpoint that he'd
suggested.

As for horary, are the heavens really going to 'move us' and open up their
secrets to us for a question on how to get more money, if its not a matter of
deep concern and necessity? We can have a lot of fun with horary, but then we
shouldn't be surprised if it has a lot of fun with us.

Dennis Elwell once had a dig at horary astrologers at a public lecture I
attended when he ridiculed us by saying 'if they are so enlightened, and able to
predict the future - how come they're not all driving around in Rolls Royces?'.
(Big audience laughter). My response was that maybe we are not all so
unenlighted that we assume that success in astrology is reflected by the money
in our bank account. There may be some very wealthy horary astrologers about
(though I don't know any myself), but if there are I doubt their wealth came to
them through their understanding of astrology.

(Of course, if anyone does manage to crack it in the end, I'll gladly pay for
the insight!)

Love Deb.




Thread: Mercury retro
From: retep@bahnhof.se (Peter) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:39:43 -0700

HELLO ALL

I am born with 5 retro planets, including mercury.
And in my experience mercurys stations haven4t
indicated much obstacles.

I4ve studied astrology since 1975.

As this is in some conflict to astrological theory,
I wonder if there are others who have observed
the same thing ?

I4m born 7 mars 1954 16.41 in Uppsala, Sweden
(Lat 59N52 Long 17E38)


Peter






___________________________________

THE BEST WAY TO PREDICT THE FUTURE
IS TO CREATE IT
__________________________________


X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: , @LILLY.PML, motive@juno.com (Lee Miller)
Subject: Re: copy of posts, TA and gossip!
Reply-to: cwiggers@halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:58:06 +8

Lee, I have forwarded the posts to you and hope you received them.
On another note I have finished up the guestbook at the website and
thought you might like to go take a look and leave a comment
(something printable mind you!)
The latest news bits are that the "Traditional Astrologer Magazine"
is out and it looks great as always, Deborah has done another fine
job of it. I already told her the flyer inside the magazine was a
little scary because of that strange womans picture, And Anne Elliott
confirmed that she really does look like that. Anyway after my
comment to Deb she did say something about amazing things she could
do with ice skates and broomsticks but that is for another mailing
list I think. All kidding aside the mag. is worth the wait, glad I
got a supply.
Sorry about your mouce going to cheese heaven, meanwhile my mouse
wrist seems to be healing after all the great tips.
Love & Light
Carol
> To: cwiggers@halcyon.com
> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:50:16 PST
> Subject: Re: copy of posts
> From: motive@juno.com (Lee Miller)

> Carol
>
> I missed the lottery postings Angela was talking about, could I
> please have a copy? I apologize for bothering you with this. Lee
>

Thread: Chart Judgement
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:51:18 -0700

Dear All

The recent mini-debate re. the vertex and potential lines of enquiry in a
chart, prompts this post. I wonder if those of you who are new (or new-ish)
to traditional astrology might be helped by a list of points to look at when
judging a chart. It's really meant to show that there are loads of things to
look at or for prior to resorting to more modern additions. I say
'resorting', because my personal viewpoint is that any chart can be read
successfully if the traditional method is followed with some understanding
of that method.

Before anyone starts jumping up and down because they think I'm going to
criticise the use of modern methods, I want to assure you that if you choose
to use them, then fine, that's your choice. I just thought it might be
useful to show the *number* of facets to the traditional method.

You might like to add your own and my list is in no real order, just how my
memory serves. Most, if not all, of these terms are defined and/or explained
at http:\\horary.com.

Planetary hour
Considerations before judgement
Planetary placings
Accidental rulers - I include here only the traditional 7
Natural rulers - as above
Significators
Dispositors
Major aspects
Dignities/debilities
Receptions
Antiscia
Part of Fortune and its dispositor

Just in case this isn't enough:

Possibly other *relevant* parts and their dispositors
Possibly fixed stars
Possibly almutens

Apart from any technical consideration, I don't have the energy to look at
anything else after this lot!

I think that most of us would agree that after a thorough and continuing
study of these points, there just isn't enough lifetime left to thoroughly
study much else.

Like a regime of testing for food allergies, we might want to try adding one
other, newer point at a time to see if there's any adverse reaction
(vomiting in my case!), or whether it can be incorporated harmoniously into
the diet. Sprinkling in a bit of this and a bit of that can cause all sorts
of unpleasant problems: flatulence, diarrohea, nausea, etc, perhaps leading
to chronic problems that only major surgery can resolve.

Well, that's enough of my problems - time for lunch...


Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Vaporization
From: "Gray,AL,Andy,NAI83,GRAYAL M" <GRAYAL@boat.bt.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:57:23 -0700


>Hell, in for a penny, in for a pound - why stop at horseracing? Has anyone
cracked >the lottery yet?


There was a request in the (AA) journal a while back for lottery
information. I believe it was Graham Bates who was asking for the date of
the win, when/where the ticket was bought, the amount and the natal details
of the winner(s). Haven't heard much about it since. Pleasant Jupiter to
Venus aspects aren't much help although I've won a tenner on consecutive
solar returns.

It would be interesting to see the theory of election used to determine when
a ticket should be bought in order to get a
minimal/modest/substantial/sod-you win. Deb has a slot in the current TA on
whether she will win (I think!)

On the original question raised by Mark, there are a couple of texts
available on sporting contests and horseracing in particular. I'll try and
find the sources. In my local group we have someone who offers ways in which
you can use astrology to back the appropriate 3 legged donkeys :-) This is
usually around the time of the Grand National. Can't say I grokked it fully
as I've lost a couple of shirts so far, the last due to an oversight (square
to 2nd cusp!).

>Angela

Andy




Thread: Reappearing Cat
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 02:46:23 -0700

Hi Deb, in case the postings get out of sync, this is my second reply to your
reply!

I have re-read your answering post, and I guess I have to grudgingly admit you
are right!! All I can proffer in justification of my own stance is that I am
so infuriatingly, pedantically analytical, that I will quite easily turn any
rule into an option of at least two, and then I have to rely on my own
intuitive awareness as to which option applies!! Chronic!

Regards

Angela



Thread: Reappearing Cat
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 02:18:41 -0700

Hi Deb, well I've now stepped down from the post and removed the blindfold -
mind you, there could be snipers!!

I have to disagree with you about the 'old biddie' reference, I'm afraid, but
perhaps that is just one person's experience against another's. However, I do
agree with you that my experience is obviously not as great as your own, and I
do bow to that, although I think the tendency to 'show off one's skill' is not
confined to the student nor synonymous with inexperience, in fact, quite the
reverse. I think it is often a lack of experience which will lead a person to
want to assist, whatever the indication of the chart, but the more
knowledgeable person will be mature enough to recognise that sometimes it is
neither wise nor practical. I have to confess that I have yet to reach the
stage whereby I do not feel obligated in some way to try and help, when asked
to, in matters which are causing a person distress. It feels like the innate
responsibility born out of choosing this area to study in the first place, not
a desire to 'perform' - I do not enjoy putting my neck on the block! But, from
what you say, I will grow out of this!!

It is also a desire to know (insatiable Virgoan curiosity) because every chart
has something to teach and is a revelation of some sort.

re Lottery posting: (you're taking me too seriously, y'knows) '.... luck is
important to me ...." ? Hmmmm, no more than anyone else. Like you, I don't
exactly have the golden touch - in fact if I so much as watch a person play
the 'one-armed bandit' machines, they lose!! But I'd love to find out if there
is an influencing system one could work with. Again, the ol' curiosity thingy.
If it works, prove it - and then use it. I sometimes wonder if there is
anything in the old religio/socialogio conscription that 'one mustn't use such
things for financial gain'(tch,tch)! I can't justify that .... but sure as
pigs can't fly (very often), if there is a workable system it is being very
elusive!! Consequently, it is not so much a case of it holding a position of
great importance, any more so than normal, but more a question of
acknowledging the existence of an 'X' factor in life, which, again, Lilly
implies in CA on more than one occasion, when he advises the student not to
stop at his rules, but to test them and continue the exploration, and also (I
can't remember his words verbatim) that there will always be an inexplicable
factor involved in the 'feeling' of a chart, how it speaks to you.

Yes, I do agree with the need for reliable rules which enable you to be
confident in practise, that is the main thing going for astrology, as far as I
am concerned, but because the traditional way is based on centuries of
interpretations and additional input, and even now on how one would interpret
'ye olde English' speak; there is no definitive rule book (wash my mouth
out!!) and even in practise there is no 100% rule, except when doing charts in
retrospect, but it's doing charts before the event that counts, and that will
always have an element of 'chance', call it what you like. Therefore, I feel
the rules should be used as guidelines, not fences, and work hand in glove
with this 'X' factor, call it intuition; gut reaction; perceptibility; pattern
recognition; whatever you like, for me at my current stage of working, the
rules verify the pattern that the individual's perception has begun to define.
(or blow it to smithereens, of course! THEN you throw it out!!)
I also accept I am probably wrong in that - put it down to my inexperience.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Astrologer
From: Nancee Belshaw <nancees@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:34:27 -0700

Hi

<Janis from Jmetz@ix.netcom.com wrote: Does anyone know any astrologers in
Irvine CA>

I am new to the list and have not posted yet. I am writing to tell you all
that I am in Los Angeles, CA area and am a great astrologer and
psychotherapist. I am 1 hour away from Irvine, CA. I am worth the drive.

I hope this will help.


Nancee
Nancees@ix.netcom.com
http://www.nanceestar.com
Astrology and Psychology


Thread: Reappearing Cat
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:50:35 -0700

Hi Angela,

Please take the following comments in the spirit of friendly debate. I'm not
disagreeing or arguing with you, as I'm sure you know, just adding a few
thoughts.

> personally I think all chart interpretations involve both skill and
luck, and even Lilly implies that, but don't ask me to quote chapter and verse
on it.
>

I agree to some extent, and psychic intuition can enter into it to. But to
practise as a professional horary astrologer you have to be able to minimise the
luck as far as possible and develop reliable rules that enable you to be
confident in practise. The problem with this cat chart was that IF it had no
real validity (or potency) then it could ALL be explained through luck. The
answer was either this or that, and whilst some correctly predicted that the cat
would return (which could be down to a lucky guess) no-one could offer any real
evidence of good astrological skill which would have been demonstrated though a
correct forecast of timing, direction, location, etc.

>
The Vertex, I don't know it's exact origins, I should do because it formed the
subject of posting on the Traditions list a few weeks back, but I don't need
Merc Rx to affect my memory, it just doesn't exist at any time. I presume it
is a comparatively modern 'discovery', and, as with the majority of things,
varies in its conception. Some say it is of purely additional relevance,
others say that it represents something of a milestone in an event, situation,
or life. Personally, I don't think you can ever take one aspect and say that
because it proved correct in one chart that it therefore proves its
authenticity in general use. That would be foolhardy at best and bloody stupid
at worst. My comments with regard to the vertex in the moggy's chart were, as
usual, fairly tongue in cheek.
>

I realised that. I don't even know what the vertex is supposed to be! I first
came across it about 10 years ago when Charles Harvey mentioned it to me. When
I asked him what it was he wasn't too sure and said that it meant something
significant but he didn't know what exactly. I'm not sure if there is a current
consensus of opinion on it, and I asked for your definition because I am often
asked about it too.

>
In serious regard, I usually look for a pattern
in a chart, and if one chart involves the vertex, I'll use it; if another
chart doesn't OK, there will be something else; the important thing to me is
that a pattern is seen to exist and be supported. Which is why I feel that
luck and skill are necessary commodities in every interpretation, nothing is
static and what helps in one instance, varies or is even non existant in
another. I know this will probably cause many cries of dismal and denial, but
it is how I have found my practise to work, and I think it is always a
question of discovering what works for you.
>

Having just read your last post on information re winning the lottery, I realise
this issue of luck is important to you! I hope yours is better than mine. Bitter
experience has shown me that I'm not 'lucky' as an astrologer but my ability to
make a correct prediction is fairly strong now, only after years of experience
and becoming familiar with horary charts. My own belief is that EVERYTHING
rests on the potency of the question. If the question is right, and if it is
appropriate, the answer is easy to find.

>
I concentrate on the traditional approach, but I am neither blind nor contrary
to including practises outside of Lilly, whether this be the outer planets,
the multitude of 'Parts', or points such as the Vertex and any other of
relevance (I suppose the Vertex could be seen as similar to the fateful
degrees, really) The important thing to me is a repeated or supported pattern.
>

Can't fault you on that!

>
I agree with the theory of what you say about clear questions, but
unfortunately it is very rare that the uninitiated to horary, which tends to
be the public at large, have any idea or conception of what is required in the
asking of a question. All they know is that if there is a problem and
astrology can answer it, then 'make it so'. And to a degree, I have to agree
with that. Anything is preferrable to have ideal circumstances from car
maintenance to clairvoyance, but this is not an ideal world and if any
practise is going to be worth its salt, it should be able to function in the
majority of contigencies, not just ideal ones, otherwise it will come across
as making excuses.
>

I don't make the public 'write down their question' and limit myself to the
words they write. I tell them to explain their situation to me, and what it is
they want to know. When I understand that, I usually tell them the question that
I am going to answer according to my understanding of their position, and ask
them to confirm whether or not that's what they are looking for. It is the
relevancy of the issues that matter. If the astrologer gets that right, then it
doesn't JUST answer the question at the top of the page, it also shows anything
that is relevant to it or to the experiences of the querent, even beyond the
question itself. For example, I've had horaries that have shown the querent to
be pregnant, even where she didn't know it, and it wasn't tied in to the
question at hand.

>
Although I do agree in part with your statement that if a question isn't in
accord with all requested criteria, you dump it - I cannot agree in whole.
This is perfectly acceptable in the research forum, but in the public practise
forum, I do not think it is good enough. You cannot turn round to either some
old biddie on the end of the telephone, or some squeaky young thing, or some
distraught individual, and say "I'm sorry, you're still not asking the
question properly." They are likely to eventually reply, "Look, you can either
do it, or you can't." - and they'd be right too.
>

I never dump any chart, but the way the chart presents itself to me guides me in
how I interpret it or pass on the information. If its not clear, then I don't
judge it officially but leave it to see how things work out and look at it in
hindsight. Usually then I can see why that chart was accurate in its symbolism,
but not a good one to give a judgement from.

I don't think the situation you describe re: the old biddy on the telephone
happens in real life though. If someone has contacted an astrologer, and is
willing to pay for a horary, then there has to be something disturbing them
which we should be potentially capable of offering guidance on. I can't
remember the last 'professional' horary I did that was not immediately
identifyable as a 'valid' one, but when I was less experienced I got loads of
them. Its something that all students struggle with too. They often get many
'warnings against judgement' which is not to say that they should discard the
chart, but that they should be aware of their own inexperience and use it more
as a learning exercise than an opportunity to show off their skill.

>
I'll now retire to my bunker and fasten down the hatches!!
>

I've always enjoyed your comments and see where you are coming from. Well, I
never have liked cat charts anyway, as you know.


Best wishes,
Deb




Thread: Job offer
From: jmetz <jmetz@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:46:59 -0700

Hi fellow horariers-Well, we did get the job offer. I just wanted to
give anyone feedback who ran the chart or wants to run it for their
record. The chart was for August 28, 1996 8:45 pm edt 41n21 73w-the
question was will my husband get the job offer. He got the offer on
Friday Sept 20, 1996 at 7:30 pm edt. Also-does anyone know any
astrologers in Irvine CA??? Thanks Janis


Thread: Vaporization
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 02:41:22 -0700

Hell, in for a penny, in for a pound - why stop at horseracing? Has anyone
cracked the lottery yet?

Angela



Thread: Reappearing Cat
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:55:10 -0700


Hi Deb, personally I think all chart interpretations involve both skill and
luck, and even Lilly implies that, but don't ask me to quote chapter and verse
on it.

The Vertex, I don't know it's exact origins, I should do because it formed the
subject of posting on the Traditions list a few weeks back, but I don't need
Merc Rx to affect my memory, it just doesn't exist at any time. I presume it
is a comparatively modern 'discovery', and, as with the majority of things,
varies in its conception. Some say it is of purely additional relevance,
others say that it represents something of a milestone in an event, situation,
or life. Personally, I don't think you can ever take one aspect and say that
because it proved correct in one chart that it therefore proves its
authenticity in general use. That would be foolhardy at best and bloody stupid
at worst. My comments with regard to the vertex in the moggy's chart were, as
usual, fairly tongue in cheek. In serious regard, I usually look for a pattern
in a chart, and if one chart involves the vertex, I'll use it; if another
chart doesn't OK, there will be something else; the important thing to me is
that a pattern is seen to exist and be supported. Which is why I feel that
luck and skill are necessary commodities in every interpretation, nothing is
static and what helps in one instance, varies or is even non existant in
another. I know this will probably cause many cries of dismal and denial, but
it is how I have found my practise to work, and I think it is always a
question of discovering what works for you.

I concentrate on the traditional approach, but I am neither blind nor contrary
to including practises outside of Lilly, whether this be the outer planets,
the multitude of 'Parts', or points such as the Vertex and any other of
relevance (I suppose the Vertex could be seen as similar to the fateful
degrees, really) The important thing to me is a repeated or supported pattern.

I agree with the theory of what you say about clear questions, but
unfortunately it is very rare that the uninitiated to horary, which tends to
be the public at large, have any idea or conception of what is required in the
asking of a question. All they know is that if there is a problem and
astrology can answer it, then 'make it so'. And to a degree, I have to agree
with that. Anything is preferrable to have ideal circumstances from car
maintenance to clairvoyance, but this is not an ideal world and if any
practise is going to be worth its salt, it should be able to function in the
majority of contigencies, not just ideal ones, otherwise it will come across
as making excuses.

Although I do agree in part with your statement that if a question isn't in
accord with all requested criteria, you dump it - I cannot agree in whole.
This is perfectly acceptable in the research forum, but in the public practise
forum, I do not think it is good enough. You cannot turn round to either some
old biddie on the end of the telephone, or some squeaky young thing, or some
distraught individual, and say "I'm sorry, you're still not asking the
question properly." They are likely to eventually reply, "Look, you can either
do it, or you can't." - and they'd be right too.

I'll now retire to my bunker and fasten down the hatches!!

Fond regards (honest)

Angela



Thread: Murder
From: "kent lambert" <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:04:44 -0700

Hello,

If a police detective asked me to help solve a murder case, what form
should the question take?

Your friendly redneck astrologer,

Kent


Thread: Vaporization
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 04:08:51 -0700

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "DP" == David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> writes:

>> I'm glad you've joined us in our virtual LillyLand and look
>> forward to seeing your photograph in the next suppliment of TA
>> - even though you are hideously disfigured.

DP> Glad to be here mate. Sadly my hideous mug has vaporized every
DP> photo booth 'twixt Brighton pier and Shoreham beach so you'll
DP> just have to use your imagination.

Unfortunately, I have your visage burned on my mind and I'm still
having trouble sleeping.

To avoid the wrath of the Astrology content measurer - Does anyone
have any information on sporting contest charts and horseracing
charts? (This is my avaricious Taurus Sun creeping through the soft
and gentle angular Neptune.)

- - --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************

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Thread: Reappearing Cat
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 04:08:31 -0700

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Deb & All,

I think the point of this horary was not an event chart as such but an
exercise in whether a piece of news would prove to be beneficial or
not - the reward. In this case the VOC Moon indicated that the news
would not prove to be beneficial and basically that was the end of the
matter. As you said, Deb, this was not
really a pivotal event in the "Case of the Missing Ed", hence the
mixed/confused signs relating to his return.
I don't think we can really read this as a chart on whether
the cat will return or not but purely on whether the news would prove
beneficial for the receiver - Sue.

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************


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Thread: AT&T, MCI and rumours
From: CURT MANWARING <chiron@servtech.com> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:20:24 -0700

This is a re-post from the traditions list last June, but is especially
relevant for this list:

>I recently switched to MCI because of an incentive plan MCI offered to
>American Express cardholders. I received a phone call from AT&T at 6:07 PM
>EDT, June 28th 1996 in Syracuse, NY. They asked why the switch of course,
>and then asked, "Do you know that in order to receive the benefits of the
>MCI plan, that you have to have at least $50 per month in long distance
>phone charges?" I said that I did not know this and the operator did not
>want me to get off the phone and switch back immediately. I said I would
>check with MCI first. I confirmed that this was an outright lie.
>
>In the second volume, Lilly states that if he found the Moon in the ASC,
>10th, 11th or 3rd house separated by a benevolent aspect of any planet
>whatsoever that the news was true. The Moon was just below the ASC at 6 sag
>05 and separating from a sextile of Uranus (Which Lilly did not know of).
>He also states that if the Moon and Mercury were in applying Square or
>Opposition then the news was false. Mercury was at 23 Gemini 15 the Moon
>applying to Opposition giving the indication that the news is false.
>Interestingly Lilly said of this that it is in such cases that the news was
>reported of purpose to affright us! The exception he gives to this rule is
>if either the Moon or Mercury casts a favorable ray to the ASC.
>
>He goes on to say that if you would know if this news be prejudicial to you
>- to see if Jupiter or Venus be in the ASC, or the Moon or Mercury in any of
>their essential dignities and in trine or sextile to the lord of the 11th.
>Mercury was essentially dignified in Gemini and received Venus.
>
>What Lilly says next is if the lord of 6th, 8th, or 12th houses is in the
>ASC (The Moon lord of the 8th is.) or the lord of the ASC is in square or
>opposition of Saturn or Mars (Jupiter is square Saturn here) or the ASC
>itself is in an unlucky aspect of these (Mars is opposite) then the querent
>shall receive prejudice by the news he hears.
>
>As to the truth of the rumour he said consider the lord of the ASC and the
>Moon and and whether either is in an angle (Moon is) or succedant house or
>fixed sign or in good aspect of the good planets. The lack of fixed signs
>and favorable aspects reinforces the falsity of AT&T's claims (Mutable sign
>rising and Venus opposite ASC). Lilly says that rumours are for the most
>part true when the angles are fixed, (Not in this case)and the Moon and
>Mercury in fixed signs (Both mutable here) separating from the infortunes
>and applying to a fortune in an angle.
>
>Ill rumours hold true if the 4th-10th be fixed and the Moon received in
>them. Rob Hand: did you know that Lilly used reception? -maybe not very
>often, but I just stumbled into it here. The Moon was unfortunate and in a
>mutable sign, and applying to an infortune (Saturn).
>
>Lilly further says that if you would know whether they intend really, yea or
>no, then consider if there be in the MC a fortunate planet viz, Sun,
>Jupiter, Venus or NN or the Moon applying to the lord of the ASC then judge
>they come to you with an honest heart. None of these apply here. My guess
>for the reason for using the MC is that it is a point of honor.
>
>I found it interesting that the lot of fortune was in Taurus and Venus
>retrograde applying to the lord of the 12th and 5th(expendatures). In terms
>of using the Lot as a phasis, then Venus is applying to the 7th and 12th.
>Most of the considerations here support a false indication for the rumour
>and it was so. I guess the moral of the story is that the size of the
>company is no indication of their honesty.
>
>I'm on my way to the "Same and the Other" lecture by Rob Schmidt. Maybe
>I'll see some of you there.
>
>Curt Manwaring
>
>
>
>
>
>



Thread: Rules and regs.
From: Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:54:42 -0700

At 04:35 PM 9/21/96 +8, Carol A. Wiggers wrote:
>Welcome , this mailing list was begun by election on the date below,
>that is when the first message came through the mail list:
>July 28, 1996
>6:22 P.M. PDT (7)
>123W41
>38N54
>
>william_lilly@halcyon.com

Please note that my email is canopus@tassie.net.au
not lreid@ida.tassie.net.au

Regards,

Linda


>
>Welcome to our traditional mailing service. We hope you will take
>part in the discussions and ask questions if you don't understand
something. This is all about learning and sharing information and
> technique. This more about practical astrology than it is about
>theory although history is going to be discussed here. Please print out
these rules and keep them handy because 3 strikes and you ar
>e out of this ballgame!
>
>Our Purpose:
>We are trying to allocate some space for Traditional Astrology in its
>many applications and as far as we know this is the only service of its
kind. Hence we are being fairly strict about the posting
>s, because it is very easy to stray away from the original concept.
>
>We want to make your time with our service informative and fun. We
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occurances.
>
>Proceedure:
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is new - it helps everyone to keep track of those posts
>.
>
>Don't worry if you think that your question or piece of information
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>sure to read through all of this to catch up to where we are at the present
time.
>
>RULES:
>With any good educational program you need to have ground rules and
>here they are:
>
>1. This list is about traditional astrology and will include horary,
>electional and genethliacal (natal, directions, annual revolutions,
promittors, etc.).
>
>2. This list focusses on the traditional approach and method of
>astrology as practiced by William Lilly and illustrated in his Christian
Astrology, We are happy to discuss any work or ideas from oth
>er authors or time periods, as long as they are pertinent and
>relevant to Lilly, our central theme. Western astrology chart discussion
only.If you aren't sure, please ask. We won't jump on you for
>it.
>
>3. No astroids! Don't even think about trying to bring up the
>discussion..take it somewhere else! Modern planets will be kept to an
absolute minimum (possible natural rulers of things), as you know
> Uranus, Neptune and Pluto had not been discovered at the time we are
>discussing.
>
>4. Any charts that you would like to discuss (unless that chart is
>part of lesson material that is being used in one of the traditional
courses) will be placed at the website and made available for a
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allow you to view and print Word format files, this is f
>ree and provided to us by Microsoft.
>
>5. Theory- this is good to a certain extent but after a while ...well
>you know! So if you have a chart to support a favorite theory of yours,
let us all look at it. Technique is more of what we are
> interested in on this list and it's one of the best ways of getting
>to grips with the theory.
>
>6. We will let you know as soon as any new reading material becomes
>available. This is always useful, particularly for those just starting in
the study of traditional astrology.
>
>7. After a chart has been thoroughly taken apart and discussed let
>it go. There is no point in going over something again and again, and
there are too many charts out there to work on. Besides thi
>s can only lead to frustration on everybody's part and causes
>friction, which will defeat the purpose of this list. We want this to be a
fun, educational experience. If your intention is to show of
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>this sounds very harsh but I have seen what happens on other mailing lists
and I don't think any of us want to have to deal with thi
>s or the politics of it either.
>
>8. For those of you just starting out, please don't be afraid to ask
>questions if you don't understand something. We all had to start somewhere
and discussion will be good for all of us. Most of yo
>u are used to lurking, but we really encourage you to take part in
>all this. If you are unsure about it, just drop me a line to check it out
first.
>
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automatically. The charges are from $35.00 to $135.00 per month t
>o have the list automatic. To my mind this is too expensive for this
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easier to handle. So when I take a little time off, the le
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>The only alternative is to charge for this service and that is something I
would rather not do, however we can discuss this as we g
>o along.
>
>10. Keep personal communication private, don't send them through the
>list. But if you have comments to make to a subscriber about the subject,
please send them through the list so all of us can sha
>re in the information. Too many times the best remarks are sent
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nowhere because of that.
>
>11. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but on this mail list there
>will be absolutely no personal attacks on people. If this happens you will
be deleted from the list. It is fine to disagree, bu
>t you must have a valid reason and it must not be expressed in a
>personal manner. This takes away from our purpose here, which is to study
traditional astrology.
>
>12. Rule number 11 still holds true but there is one exception - If
>you are feeling especially aggressive we suggest that you send your
comments to Deborah Houlding directly because she will argue ab
>out anything and everything! If you still feel that you have not had
>enough by all means direct your comments to Lee Lehman, that should finish
it off! (I needed to have an even dozen rules!)
>
>It is sincerely hoped that this will be a true learning experience of
>a very positive nature. I look forward to seeing your additions to this
mailing list.
>
>Love & Light
>Carol A. Wiggers
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>mail list for traditional astrology william_lilly@halcyon.com
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
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>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
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>cwiggers@halcyon.com
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>
>
Linda Reid
================================
A Man came out from the wilderness -
" I live! I exist!"
he shouted to the Universe
"Good" replied the Universe,
" I need somebody to look
after my cats".
.............The Kid
================================



Thread: Reappearing Cat
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:16:33 -0700

Dear Angela

Re, the cat:

>The vertex wasn't that wrong then!!

Glad he's back, hope the injuries are nothing serious.
>

We don't know that the Vertex had anything to do with it. But, out of interest,
what is the 'vertex' supposed to mean?

I think this chart has been a useful exercise, but we shouldn't put too much
importance on it. And I am not just saying this just because I got it wrong!
The main feeling it has left me with, is that I will distrust charts judged as
horaries from implied questions asked not by a querent but from an astrologer,
based on an event that's not loaded with significance, and not judged by that
astrologer anyway. The chart we cast was based on the event of Sue finding a
leaflet, drawn for her time and location. We gave it validity as an event chart,
but it was a little weak at that. Plus, I'm not sure that the workings of
horaries and events overlap as neatly as we may think.

I'm surprised that no-one has asked Sue the time that she discovered the cat had
returned. I do a lot of missing object charts. The majority of them are quite
difficult to prejudge so I don't watse my time on them unless they are very
clear. When they are, I have not yet found one that did not accurately predict
discovery, but in every case I drew up the discovery chart and found a VERY
close (sometimes staggeringly close) connection between that and the original
horary. If that exists in this case, it would be an argument to me that this
was a valid horary, if it doesn't I would be doubtful about its validity.

The usefulness of this to me is in what it has discounted, not what it has
proved. (One right prediction does not an aphorism make). It seems a good idea
to look at other event charts as a means of predicting outcomes but next time we
should try to get closer to the source of the event (like in this case, the time
that the owners realised the cat was missing). Nothing beats a good, direct
horary asked by a querent who is personally involved in the situation because we
know then which rulerships to apply. In 'events' we may need to be more
flexible and take more notice of 'general indications', such as Mercury
retrograde (suggested by Julienne) and the combustion of Mercury by the Sun
(suggested by Tony).

Somebody earlier questioned the meaning of Moon VOC (red Ken?, sorry I can't
remember your name), and suggested that it meant 'nothing HAS happened',
therefore whatever is thought to be lost is not really lost. This is the wrong
way round as it is usually (glibly) said to imply 'nothing WILL happen' which is
why most horary astrologers presume that it means nothing will occur in the
future, or that there is little that the querent can do. I go along with the
latter, which Sue supports, but it CAN show that things occur in the future.
When they do, however, without the strength of the Moon they occur slowly and
with a great deal of frustration. 'All matters go hardly' Lilly said. A VOC
Moon does not deny perfection (after all other events are happening in the chart
as well) but it does retard the action and deny a quick and smooth completion.

But let's not question the meaning of the VOC Moon or anything based on this
chart alone, which as I've said, may not be the best example in the first place.

Congratulations to you, Tony and everyone who did get the answer right. Was
that skill, or luck? only more examples will tell.

Best wishes,
Deb



Thread: Lunar Eclipse
From: Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:16:37 -0700

David,

>"Uri, will attempt to start your broken watches and clocks, bend your spoons
and keys"

Damn, and it cost me L87 to get my watch fixed at EARNEST JONES!

>"Now this just happens to be the night of a total lunar eclipse (visible
N.Europe and most of USA) in which Saturn is conjunct Moon, opposition Sun.
Internet voodoo -- or have I been reading too much Bill Gibson? Anyway I'm
not going to risk having my computer's innards mangled by Uri Geller thank
you very much, so I think I'll go out and watch the eclipse instead."

Its also the day that Mercury turns direct. It looks like it will be a very
forceful eclipse, which will either kill or cure. What time it is visible in
Britain?

Deb



Thread: Lunar Eclipse
From: David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:00:40 -0700

To all
This has nothing to do with William Lilly or Trad astrology but please bear
with me. This is what you get in the wacky world of Compuserve:

>WORLD 1st: Online Telepathic Experiment with Uri Geller

>Uri Geller, the world-renowned telepath, will be conducting the first-ever
realtime
>online telepathic experiment on CompuServe on 26 September at 8pm BST.
Uri
>will attempt to start your broken watches and clocks, bend your spoons
and keys,
>and transmit a telepathic image across the network. He will also answer
your
>questions about his life, his work and his amazing powers.

>Shelley von Strunckel, the world's most respected astrologer (she writes
>horoscopes for The Evening Standard, The New York Times, and The Sunday
>Times among others), will be interviewing him and fielding your
questions.

>Be a part of it - GO CONFERENCE on 26 September at 8pm and log into this
>incredible world-first event.

Now this just happens to be the night of a total lunar eclipse (visible
N.Europe and most of USA) in which Saturn is conjunct Moon, opposition Sun.
Internet voodoo -- or have I been reading too much Bill Gibson? Anyway I'm
not going to risk having my computer's innards mangled by Uri Geller thank
you very much, so I think I'll go out and watch the eclipse instead.

David


Thread: Missing cat
From: motive@juno.com (Lee Miller) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:39:14 -0700

Hello Mercury Rx Victim looking for help, here.

Would someone please tell me the Asc. deg. & sign on this chart.
I ran it with zone -1 hour, Regiomontanus houses and came up with
Asc. 6 Pisces 48' with Aries intercepted in the 1H and Leo intercepted in
the 6H, the second time around.

I have never seen a chart that had 2 interceptions. Does this have any
influence on the question seeing that they are in the 1H & 6H ?

Lee


Thread: Cat no longer missing
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:04:39 -0700

Tony wrote:

>Sue,
>
>A couple more thoughts about this chart now that Red Ed has returned. It
>seems that the return correlates with Mercury conjunct Sun. In the original
>chart they were mutually applying and Mercury ruled 3 (your neighbor), 4 (the
>end of the matter), and 7 (the spouse of the man who own the cat). Sun rules
>intecepted Leo in 6th so could be a co-ruler of the cat, perhaps the cat was
>caught somewhere and unable to get free (intercepted). Sun is fiery and the
>cat is red like fire, so maybe it's descriptive. Here, if Sun = cat and
>Mercury = neighbor, end of matter, and spouse of owner who posted the notices,
>the cat returned when these two planets conjoined.

I'm not sure about the Sun for Ed, certainly there is a degree of
description there, but he is west in the 7th, when it is fairly certain that
he was east. But I'll get more iinformation on this later and see below
.
>Also, if Jupiter was the querent/owner of the cat (Pisces ASC), then the cat
>returned when Moon (natural ruler of fugitives and strays) entered
>Sagittarius, Jupiter's sign.
>
>By the way, did the spouse find the cat?

No, he came home on his own. As mentioned in a previous post, a woman who
lives east of the cat's home, feeds the foxes and badgers and had noted that
a cat answering Ed's description had been coming into her garden and
feeding. This apparently occurred on consecutive nights leading up to his
homecoming.

>RE: VOC Moon meaning missing thing will return, I think that's a modern notion
> but I'm searching the older texts for a reference. In any case, I have done
>several missing item or animal horaries in which the Moon was VOC and the
>item or pet returned, so I thought it was a valid observation. This chart
>also seems to support this notion.

Ok, but I think that this is based on the idea that 'nothing will come of
it' if the Moon is voc. Sometimes this happens, but I think that this is
because it is linked to the concept that there is nothing the querent can do
(since the Moon is the querent's co-significator). Certainly then 'nothing
will come of it' if there is nothing the querent can do. Lilly uses the Moon
voc to show no substance in a rumour, and so that 'nothing will come of it',
but I don't think that is the whole story. Maybe we just don't understand
the condition well enough to be able to make hard and fast rules. I think
that this is how I feel about it for myself.

>Warmly,
>
>Tony
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Cat no longer missing
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:10:14 -0700

At 07:23 PM 9/19/96 +0000, sueward@easynet.co.uk wrote:
>Dear All
>
>Red Ed returned this morning (Thurs 19th). He's a bit bashed about, in that
>his back leg/s and tail seem to have suffered injury. He's being taken to
>the vet this morning. More news tomorrow.

I just want to mention that I breed animals - Lamas (llamas, Alpacas,
Guanacos), and Maine Coon cats, and have bred many other beasties over the
years, from peafowl to goats to Afghan Hounds. I have found again and again
that Mercury retrograde periods are very difficult for animals, probably, I
think, because of the connection between Mercury and its rulership of Virgo,
the sign of small to medium animals. I find more problems with health,
taking off to go walkabout, accidents, breeding problems, medication
problems, etc.

This time some of my animals are being held hostage, one, M&Ms, has a broken
pelvis and may have permanent spinal damage, and so may have to be put to
sleep, and the others (all my cats) have just moved with me to a new home,
except for four, which are either missing or hiding. Probably those four
will show up and allow themselves to be caught when Mercury goes direct.
Luckily my old neighbour loves animals and has been double feeding those
four anyway, so at least they'll be taken care of until I can get them.

That's all...

Julienne
***************************************************************************
"You must have C*h*A*o*S* within you, to give birth to a dancing star."

Friedrich Nietzsche

***************************************************************************



Thread: Cat no longer missing
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:37:30 -0700


The vertex wasn't that wrong then!!

Glad he's back, hope the injuries are nothing serious.

Angela



Thread: Cat no longer missing
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:23:28 -0700

Dear All

Red Ed returned this morning (Thurs 19th). He's a bit bashed about, in that
his back leg/s and tail seem to have suffered injury. He's being taken to
the vet this morning. More news tomorrow.

In my opinion, the Moon voc was showing that there was nothing the owners
could do - although I'm sure that others might say differently. Who wants to
run the post mortem on the chart? Indeed, do you think that the chart
accurately describes in this instance?

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Egyptian Terms
From: David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:18:18 -0700
Status: U

Yo Spider

You wrote:
>Shoener also uses the Egyptian terms rather than the Ptolemaic terms.

Seems to me that just about everyone used the Egyptian terms except the
17th century English astrologers. There seems to have been an element of
'political correctness' here. The English saw the Ptolemaic terms as part
of the true astrological heritage direct from Ptolemy while the Egyptian
terms were seen as part of astrology's 'corruption' at the hands of nasty
foreigners. Strange but true, especially when you look at the overtly
political astrologers like Partridge.

>I'm glad you've joined us in our virtual LillyLand and look forward to
>seeing your photograph in the next suppliment of TA - even though you
>are hideously disfigured.

Glad to be here mate. Sadly my hideous mug has vaporized every photo booth
'twixt Brighton pier and Shoreham beach so you'll just have to use your
imagination.

David


Thread: Almutens and Polly Klass
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:05:44 -0700
Status: U

Hi Mark,

Contrary to being 'stoned', I would be interested to learn your views on
Cornelius' book. I didn't actually finish reading it because I wasn't too
sure on the veracity of his views. He certainly seems to advocate a general
'mix' of applications without actually coming to any definite conclusions or
recommendations. I am very much in two minds (product of being on the
Libran cusp!) with regard to his book and would be interested in your reaction.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Almutens and Polly Klass
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:57:33 -0700
Status: U

Inevitably, if you are going to talk about 'traditional' methods, along with
the almutens and their roots, the path leads to the question of houses, such
as, if one wishes to be a purist in the traditional sense, then why are we not
using equal house system? But, then again, apparently even the usage of houses
per se is not the true 'tradition', as houses were not part of the original
astrological practise. So..... where does one stop in the desire to be
'traditional'? I do agree that maybe in order to adequately assess a
particular additive it is necessary to take on board the whole system from
whence it emanates, but is this really possible when our modes of thinking
have changed so over the centuries, along with so many other things? I really
don't know quite how far one can take this desire to practise 'as the
ancients', to truly ascribe to the 'traditional' way, it involves so much more
than just learning the rule book. (What do you all think about equal houses
anyway? Just out of interest.)

Maybe it is best to decide whose system makes most sense to you and stick to
it, whether Lilly, Dariot, Dorotheus, etc; on the other hand, maybe it is
possible to integrate external ideas into your preferred method, such as using
almutens in with standard Lilly. I think I will keep an open mind on it; at
present there seems to be a lot going for the idea that whatever works for the
individual practitioner is what is right. I know a friend of mine invented a
complete system of magic, based on a popular comic character ...... and it
worked, at least for him.

Hmmmm .... I guess it just boils down to suck it and see.

NB Sue: Thanks for your reply re the Lord of the Hour. I will cogitate on that
one. It gives me a bit of a hiccup to use the TZ hour for planetary ruler when
the chart is based on GMT. Does this apply to British Summer Time too? So if
GMT is 9am, planetary hour ruler will be 10am? OOOh, this is going to feel
definitely iffy!!

Regards

Angela



Thread: (Fwd) Missing/suicide from Sue Ward
From: Hideaki Kokubu <kokubu@est.co.jp> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:09:09 -0700

Dear Mark,

> Although, I'm not as rigid as some when it comes to the new planets, I'm of
> the opinion that the chart should be able to be read without them.

I have always put trans-saturninans in the chart, however, it was almost
possible to manage without them in case of personal horary question.
But, in practice, isn't it sometimes difficult to read the chart fine
without trans-saturninans?

> Who/what is the Moon in this translation?

I think the moon is the co-significator of the mother.

Regards,

Hideaki


Thread: Egyptian Terms
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:03:02 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 35651712 0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Well! Hello there, Dave.

>>>>> "DP" == David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> writes:

DP> ...But Dariot also used
DP> the 'Egyptian' set of terms rather than the 'Ptolemaic' set
DP> Lilly used...

Shoener also uses the Egyptian terms rather than the Ptolemaic terms.
Has anyone out there in William_LillyLand had any experience using the
Egyptian terms?

DP> ... On the
DP> the other hand, Lilly's method worked fine for him... if it
DP> ain't broke don't fix it.

Too true, but it is not always enough to settle with a proven method
when there might be a better one to be found. So experimenting with
other systems can prove to be fruitful.

DP> Best wishes to everyone on the William Lilly list from a
DP> Sagittarian newcomer jumping in feet first. Peace!

I'm glad you've joined us in our virtual LillyLand and look forward to
seeing your photograph in the next suppliment of TA - even though you
are hideously disfigured.

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************


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Thread: Almutens and Polly Klass
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:03:36 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 35651712 0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Dorothy

>>>>> "Dorothy" == Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> writes:

Dorothy> Dear Mark and all kind an patient Horary Artists, Thank
Dorothy> you for being so astute once again. Ya know I should just
Dorothy> give up writing anything during Mercury R. I am Mercury
Dorothy> ruled so I screwed up again!

Mercury Rx is so much fun. I just enjoy seeing all those
non-astrologers running around like headless chickens. Born on a
Mercury station I seem to be particularly susceptible to the Rx curse
too.

Dorothy> Now the date for the Polly
Dorothy> Klass abduction was 10/1/1993 10:40:pm Petaluma,
Dorothy> Ca. 38n12, 122w38 Sorry.

Thank you for the correct date. It'll be interesting to see the
chart.

Dorothy> Im a stubborn ignoramous,
Dorothy> because I still prefer my 'wrong' time zone for M.
Dorothy> Jarvis have you looked at it with GMT????

At the risk of being stoned here - read Geoffrey Cornelius' *The
Moment of Astrology*. It poses some interesting questions.

Dorothy> What does TTYL syand for anyway???

Carol got there before me and as she said TTYL means Talk To You Later
- - now try TTFN! (Any Pooh fan should know this one.)

Dorothy> I like what you said about using almutens in natal. I
Dorothy> have never used them for this purpose, but i will look at
Dorothy> them. I really don't want espouse regimented use of
Dorothy> almutens, personally. Too many distractions, however I
Dorothy> feel they describe the situation in the Polly Klass
Dorothy> incident quite well. Again Please forgive, and thanks
Dorothy> for pointing it out.

David Plant's posting has reminded us of the use of almutens in Horary
by Dariot - a translation that was covered in the wonderful Tradtional
Astrologer (Do I get a free renewal Deb?) - and Lilly's 3rd book on
Nativities contains references to almutens.

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************


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Thread: Almutens and Polly Klass
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:08:41 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0

Dear Mark and all kind an patient Horary Artists,
Thank you for being so astute once again. Ya know I should just give up
writing anything during Mercury R. I am Mercury ruled so I screwed up again!
Now the date for the Polly Klass abduction was 10/1/1993 10:40:pm Petaluma,
Ca. 38n12, 122w38 Sorry.
Im a stubborn ignoramous, because I still prefer my 'wrong' time zone for M.
Jarvis have you looked at it with GMT????
By the way I find your insights brilliant, wish I didnt make so many
mistakes on transmitting data, glad your there to keep an eye on me.
Hopefully I will improve by the end of the month...

What does TTYL syand for anyway???

I like what you said about using almutens in natal. I have never used them
for this purpose, but i will look at them. I really don't want espouse
regimented use of almutens, personally. Too many distractions, however I
feel they describe the situation in the Polly Klass incident quite well.
Again Please forgive, and thanks for pointing it out.
>
with great appreciation,
dorothy

>Sorry, Dorothy. I'm confused with this data. I cannot get the same
>information for 10th January 1996 or 1st October 1995 and I assume
>that 1st October 1996 is not correct. Could you confirm the data so
>we can follow your reasoning. Ta.
>
>- --
>
>TTYL, Mark

>



Thread: Almutens and Polly Klass
From: David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 04:16:32 -0700

Lilly knew about almutens (CA p.49) but chose to use the sign ruler as
house significator in horary and natal charts.

I think there are two different styles of astrology here. Lilly's method
was mostly based on Ptolemy who doesn't mention almuten. The French
astrologer Dariot (late 16th century and cited in the bibliography of CA)
did recommend using the almuten rather than sign ruler. But Dariot also
used the 'Egyptian' set of terms rather than the 'Ptolemaic' set Lilly
used, reversed the calculation of Fortuna in nocturnal charts, and used an
alternative set of triplicity rulers in which Venus rules the watery
triplicity by day and each triplicity has a 'common ruler' as well as its
day and night ruler.

Dariot's style goes back via Ibn Ezra to Dorotheus of Sidon. Lilly may well
have viewed it as too 'Arabic' for good Protestant astrologers. Anyway the
point is that to make a fair assessment of almutens you would probably have
to take the whole Dariot/Ibn Ezra/Dorotheus style of astrology into account
using different terms, different triplicity rulers etc. Personally I like
playing around with alternative styles in my favourite charts to get
different perspectives. On the the other hand, Lilly's method worked fine
for him... if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Best wishes to everyone on the William Lilly list from a Sagittarian
newcomer jumping in feet first. Peace!

David Plant


Thread: Missing cat
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:25:17 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 35651712 0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi Sue,

>>>>> "Sue" == sueward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> writes:

Sue> I will keep
Sue> checking, but you realise that I'm getting a dreadful name
Sue> around here - I'm in the off licence everyday!

Any excuse - make mine a pint!

Sue> I treated this chart as news, so there wasn't a querent as
Sue> such. I would treat this type of chart like an event and so
Sue> the owner would be the 1st and the cat the radical 6th, but I
Sue> suppose that there's more than one way to - er, wossname a
Sue> cat.

Now you've hit the nail on the head - it's been turned into a wrap -
Moon ruler of the 6th in Libra in terms of Jupiter - opulant adornment.

Sue> What's a vertex? What does it mean/do? Oi! Is this modern?

Now calm down. At least we haven't seen the fact that the Moon is
applying to a conjunction of Chiron (perhaps it's lame!)

>> Having tied myself in knots lately doing charts for my own lost
>> moggie

What is it about Astrologers and cats?

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************


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Thread: Almutens and Polly Klass
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:25:00 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 35651712 0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Dorothy,

>>>>> "Dorothy" == Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> writes:

Dorothy> ...I would also be
Dorothy> interested in other astrologers opinions of Almutens.

I don't use Almutens in horaries but they can be useful in natal. It
is useful to note that many so called soft Libran ascendants have hard
as nails Saturn as their Almuten! I'm sure Sue would also condone the
use of the Almuten of the Figure in a natal reading.

Dorothy> So lets look at a well documented time, witnessed by 3
Dorothy> girls who watched a man kidnap their friend. The
Dorothy> abduction of Polly Klass. 10/1/1996 10:40pm PDT (7)
Dorothy> Petaluma Ca. 38n13, 122w38.

Sorry, Dorothy. I'm confused with this data. I cannot get the same
information for 10th January 1996 or 1st October 1995 and I assume
that 1st October 1996 is not correct. Could you confirm the data so
we can follow your reasoning. Ta.

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************


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Thread: Please help with missing person char/clarification
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:40:31 -0700

I would agree with that, Sue. Unfortunately with this method of communication
it isn't quite so convenient to be able to confirm descriptions as in normal
practise. I'm glad to say that Merissa did send me a posting confirming that
there were, indeed, severe financial concerns with this person, and the
details certainly seemed to fit, so in this instance turning the chart appears
to have worked. However, I do take your point about using the radical to
confirm the turned.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Thanks you
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:22:53 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0

At 07:51 PM 9/17/96 +0000, spider@wildmaw.com wrote:

>Like minds....

Like chocolates too...so does Deb...

>TTYL, Mark

I have to ask...what does TTYL mean?

(thanks)

Julienne
***************************************************************************
"You must have C*h*A*o*S* within you, to give birth to a dancing star."

Friedrich Nietzsche

***************************************************************************



Thread: Lost and moon void of course
From: "kent lambert" <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:11:58 -0700

Hi folks,

It's my understanding that moon void of course means nothing happens. If
something is lost nothing has happened; it's not really lost.
I'm fairly new at horary so I would appreciate any and all comments.
Thanks alot.

Your friendly redneck astrologer,

Kent


Thread: Missing cat
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:10:09 -0700

Angela wrote:

>Hi Sue,

>
>Now, this isn't my course work, so no slapped wrists if I digress from
Lilly!!

Now you've spoiled my fun!

>I haven't studied the chart you gave in detail, but first off, I would be

>interested to see if any news is received about the cat around the 19/20

>September -I have taken 7th house as 'any other person' being the enquirer,

>and 6th house from that for beautiful moggie. This makes Saturn
significator
>for Mogg, and Saturn is debilitated in Aries, being intercepted possibly
shows

I wondered why you mentioned Saturn Rx in the other post. I checked again
today, 17th, and no news yet. I will keep checking, but you realise that I'm
getting a dreadful name around here - I'm in the off licence everyday!

I treated this chart as news, so there wasn't a querent as such. I would
treat this type of chart like an event and so the owner would be the 1st and
the cat the radical 6th, but I suppose that there's more than one way to -
er, wossname a cat.

>unable to return home; being in turned 2nd and Saturn just past Part of

>Fortune, could indicate monetary motive; dispositor of Saturn is Mars and
Mars
>is quite happy in Leo, disposited by the Sun. Significator of enquirer (7th

>hse) is Mercury, which is retrograde in Virgo in 7th hse, and on the 19th
Sept
>will partile conjunct 22 degrees which is the Vertex in the chart. Also,

>Mercury is 6 degrees away from the Sun and the Vertex in the chart, being
in an
>angular house, this could imply news received within 6 days, and 6 days
from
>the 14th Sept will be 19/20 Sept.


What's a vertex? What does it mean/do? Oi! Is this modern?

>Having tied myself in knots lately doing charts for my own lost moggie
(again!)
>I do hope this one comes safely back. Please let me know. My Yoda came
home
>at 5.30am last Thursday, ploughed through 5 bowls of food and then went to
bed.
>Once again, he was severely punished with lots of hugs and kisses.


Not again - get him electronically tagged or something.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Missing cat
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:10:01 -0700

>To: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>
>From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
>Subject: RE: Missing cat
>
>Tony
>
>Thank you for this - I hadn't really looked at the almutens, so if for no
other reason, this chart will be interesting to check when I have an
outcome. If you've seen my previous post you'll know that I checked today
(Sunday) and no news of the cat. I'll check again tomorrow if I can.
>>
>>I took a quick look at the missing cat chart, reproduced below. The querent
>>has several rulers: Jupiter (Pisces rising), Saturn Rx in 1st, and Venus -
>>almuten of ASC. Saturn Rx in 1st raises some concern about the outcome.
>
>I'm a little concerned about using Saturn for the owner, since it's in a
different sign. But I'm open to persuasion on this.
>
>>The Cat: 6th house = Cancer, so Moon primarily (Moon also rules strays), but
>>Venus and Mars occupy the 6th. Moon is Almuten of 6th.
>>
>>Moon here is Void by Lilly's standards so I suspect the cat wandered off and
>>is wandering aimlessly in a westerly direction (Libra, 7th house). With Moon
>>in 7th in Libra (disposed by Venus, Almuten of 1st), there is a good chance
>>the cat will return. It is possible the spouse or partner of the owner has
>>or will find the cat. If Mars in 6th is the cat, Mars is mutually
applying to
>>a trine of Saturn in 1st (owner), so the cat may return rather quickly within
>>a day or so.
>
>Ditto with Mars in a different sign to the 6th, but again I have an open
mind about it.
>
>Interestingly, it was his spouse who posted the notices through everyone's
door and as I said he didn't seem to want to go to any further trouble. I
suppose the cat was ok to brag about, but other than that - well, it's only
money...
>
>>Let us know how the matter turned out.
>
>I will.
>
>Is it not ok to post this to the list?
>
>Thanks for this, Tony. I like your point of view, it does offer some hope.
>
>Sue
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Missing cat
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:11:22 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0

Tony wrote:

>Sue,
>
>I agree about using Saturn and Mars as significators, but they do occupy the
>houses in question and I was looking for any ray of hope. I have a cat myself
>and would be distraught if she disappeared. If Saturn and Mars physically
>describe the querent and cat respectively, then the upcoming trine may offer
>the possibility of return.

Well, if we can accept Mars for a red cat, then fine. The owner tells me
that someone, living in an easterly direction, has told him that she saw the
cat in her garden (she puts food out for the foxes and badgers, etc). He
says that they might go up and have a look.

>Also, the void Moon often means the return of a missing object.

I haven't heard this before, do you know where it comes from, or could you
expand a little?

>Another thought: if you asked the question "Where is my neighbor's cat?",
>then the signifcators would be different.

I'm not sure about doing this, I'm a bit menopausal about third party charts
at the moment, so I tend to leave them until I know that the querent is most
defintiely involved.

>Feel free to post my comments.
>
>Tony
>
Thank you Tony.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Please help with missing person char/clarification
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:10:01 -0700

Angela wrote:

>I am intrigued by the houses one would use in the case of step
brother/sister.
>Surely the 3rd house is for kin as in blood relatives, in the case of
'step'
>related, wouldn't you take 4th house for father (the implication being that

>the natural parent was the father), 7th from 4th for partner of the natural

>parent, and then 5th from the turned 7th for children of partner of natural

>parent? Sounds ridiculous, admittedly, but when it comes down to it, in
order
>to be strictly accurate, wouldn't that be the correct procedure? I did


I would be inclined, initially, to look at the partner's child, so to speak.
But in any turned chart I think that the radical chart should always be
studied. In the message you are referring to there was confusion over who
was the querent and what relationship other named parties had to each other.

If I was asked 'will my stepson get the job?', I would look at the radical
11th (the 5th of children from the 7th of the partner), but would check
descriptions to make sure that the radical 5th wasn't involved too - or instead.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com



Thread: Thanks you
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:04:59 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 35651712 0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Like minds....

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************


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Thread: Thanks you
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:07:56 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 35651712 0

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Deb,
>>>>> "Deb" == Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> writes:

Deb> Angela - what makes you think that I am trying to be funny?

(Angela - Deb doesn't know how to be funny. She is earnest - in fact,
her parents wanted a boy so her middle name IS Ernest :)

Deb> ...(still got the tape Mark?)...

It beats Oasis!

Deb> I didn't overlook that Saturn was retrograde, but I've
Deb> generally found that when a missing item / lost object / AWOL
Deb> pet does return there will also be an applying link between
Deb> the 'missing thing' and owner. A retrograde significator is
Deb> one useful indication that it will return, but by itself I
Deb> don't think it is enough to rest the judgement on.

We really need to work on the rule of three. One significator for a
positive result is not enough we really need it to be held up with a
couple of others. (Bit like a Saturday night at the conference - we
all need holding up at some time!!!)

Deb> I haven't got time to look at Dorothy's chart tonight, but
Deb> just want to make a comment on the use of 'OR' questions. I
Deb> never take them - and find that they only ever lead to
Deb> confusion.

At the risk of repeating myself - again and again and again and.... -
getting the question nailed down is very important any confusion in
the question will be magnified in the chart.

Deb> I hope I've made some sense there.

You always make sense - well most of the time.

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************


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Thread: (Fwd) Missing/suicide from Sue Ward
From: spider@wildmaw.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:05:44 -0700
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Hideaki,

Although, I'm not as rigid as some when it comes to the new planets, I'm of
the opinion that the chart should be able to be read without them.
Having to resort to them indicates that the chart may not be a "good"
chart.

>>>>> "Hideaki" == Hideaki Kokubu <kokubu@est.co.jp> writes:

Hideaki> Yes, Venus is separating from Neptune, but the moon will
Hideaki> traslate the light of Neptune to Venus. Though some say
Hideaki> this kind of traslation doesn't work, I regard it so when
Hideaki> the translater is aspecting both planets.

If there is a translation then you have to work out what or who is
represented by the translating planet and what or who for the others.
Who/what is the Moon in this translation?

- --

TTYL, Mark

*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :

PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
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Thread: Horary Program
From: starstuff@mylink.net (Rowena Wall) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:42:19 -0700
X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0

Carol:

Nice to hear from you. I thought maybe you hadn't gotten my last
note about the newsletter.

Yes, I got the program and it is installed. I haven't totally explored
it, but what I have seen I like very much. However, this doesn't mean
you're out of the woods with me - I may wander into a problem yet and
start screaming!!! And I thank you for your willingness to help.

Ok - I'll send in my subscription. I always get confused on these
lists - but I'll try it.

Thanks for writing and it 's good to hear from you.

Rowena


ROWENA WALL, Professional Astrologer
Starstuff@Delphi.com * starstuff@mylink.net
http://people.delphi.com/starstuff
"It's called Integrity, Stupid!"